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Deleted member 21431

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
596
It's not like the specs are a secret, PS5 is much weaker than the Xbox....it's only advantage could be loading times and that's it
Wow, this person has both consoles in their possession and has stress tested both against numerous, yet to be released games to be able to say "it's only advantage could be loading times and that's it". Time to wrap up all future console comparison and discussion threads now this expert from the future has spoken.

/s
 

Gemüsepizza

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,541
If you had a computer with a Rtx 2060 with Uber fast ssd and another computer with an Rtx 2070 with a standard ssd, I can't see where the 2060 would be the better computer. The games would load faster, but the image/ resolution etc. - that would still be generated by the gpu/cpu??

Because you don't seem to understand how games work. There isn't just the initial loading of the game world, there is constant loading while you are playing, because a whole game (100 GB) does not fit into the RAM (8 GB). This is called "streaming". During current-gen, devs had maybe 50 MB/s for streaming because HDDs are slow. With next-gen, devs will have ~4.8 GB/s on Xbox Series X and 9 GB/s for PS5. The faster SSD in the PS5 will allow devs to load more and higher quality assets, which means better looking games. It will also allow game design decisions that are not possible elsewhere.

You should go into other threads. Many posters got into that topic very deep in theorizing hypothetical imaginery scenarios where games would only be possible on Ps5 because of the SSD.

Nothing imaginary about it. Exclusive games that make full use of the PS5 SSD will not be possible on Xbox Series X or the average gaming PC.
 

Lukemia SL

Member
Jan 30, 2018
9,384
Wow, this person has both consoles in their possession and has stress tested both against numerous, yet to be released games to be able to say "it's only advantage could be loading times and that's it". Time to wrap up all future console comparison and discussion threads now this expert from the future has spoken.

/s

char_headshot_sid.jpg
 

Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,685
Because you don't seem to understand how games work. There isn't just the initial loading of the game world, there is constant loading while you are playing, because a whole game (100 GB) does not fit into the RAM (8 GB). This is called "streaming". During current-gen, devs had maybe 50 MB/s for streaming because HDDs are slow. With next-gen, devs will have ~4.8 GB/s on Xbox Series X and 9 GB/s for PS5. The faster SSD in the PS5 will allow devs to load more and higher quality assets, which means better looking games. It will also allow game design decisions that are not possible elsewhere.



Nothing imaginary about it. Exclusive games that make full use of the PS5 SSD will not be possible on Xbox Series X or the average gaming PC.
That 4,8 gb is still an insane increase from last gen. How much difference the double speed of the ps5 ssd will make in practice, is still very much an unanswered question.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
Regarding the issue of Mark Cerny's presentation and whether or not he could be "lying" about some aspects of the console's hardware design and performance, I'd like to say something. I don't have a horse in this race, I game on PC exclusively and have done so for the last 30 years. I have never owned a console from Sony or Microsoft, the only one I've ever bought was the original Gameboy all those years ago, so hopefully people will consider my opinion an unbiased one.

Cerny can't lie in an official presentation of the console. Doing so would put Sony at significant risk of a lawsuit for false advertizing. What Cerny (and Spencer and everyone else trying to pitch a device to the public) can do is focus attention on the console's advantages and pull attention away from the console's shortcomings. They are trying to present their product in the best possible light. In practice this means that you can take the specs they both revealed to the bank but you should be wary of, well, pretty much everything else from both companies. Always wait for real-world testing and benchmarks.
 

Neural

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,820
Italy
The day DF will start putting out comparison videos for XSX/PS5 multiplatform games will be oh so glorious. Can't wait.
 

Broken Hope

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,316
2+ Teraflops and a stronger CPU is a pretty big difference
There's more than just teraflops, Sony might have a better API or dev kit, rumours are saying Sony's developer environment is better.

Look at PC benchmarks on Windows vs Linux, same hardware but different performance due to OS/API.
 

Poison Jam

Member
Nov 6, 2017
2,984
There's nothing wrong with calling the weaker GPU "slower", because they're not referring to clockspeed but performance.

It's all about how quickly they can finish their tasks, like rendering a frame. If the Xbox can finish first, then the PS5 is per definition a slower processor.
 

Scottoest

Member
Feb 4, 2020
11,332
Cerny is selling us something. Same with Spencer. It doesn't matter if it was a technical talk or not. Weaknesses are going to be glossed, while advantages will be played up.

Both these machines are great. Both are comparable. XSX is marginally more powerful.

Hey look, some sanity.

But once again, it's always instructive to see how easy it is to bring the fanboy impulse posts to the surface on this forum, haha. Someone wake me up in November.
 

Fatmanp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,438
Because you don't seem to understand how games work. There isn't just the initial loading of the game world, there is constant loading while you are playing, because a whole game (100 GB) does not fit into the RAM (8 GB). This is called "streaming". During current-gen, devs had maybe 50 MB/s for streaming because HDDs are slow. With next-gen, devs will have ~4.8 GB/s on Xbox Series X and 9 GB/s for PS5. The faster SSD in the PS5 will allow devs to load more and higher quality assets, which means better looking games. It will also allow game design decisions that are not possible elsewhere.



Nothing imaginary about it. Exclusive games that make full use of the PS5 SSD will not be possible on Xbox Series X or the average gaming PC.
That's not really true though. Yes it will load things faster. But at a higher quality? No.
 

ianpm31

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,529
It comes to a point where both systems are strong enough. The difference is marginal it's going to come down to the devs. Going to be funny around here if Demon's Souls looks better than Halo at launch.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,992
Yeah you keep bring up my post. I proposed nothing. What I was saying was if he didn't want to bad mouth the PS5 he would have kept the variable clocks part out of the PS5 presentation. The layman may see this as a compromise to the hardware (and we have been seeing that happen). It's been making people thing the console is 9.2TF and all the concerned now believe it will mostly be running at 9.2 instead of the rounded 10.3TF.

You're using my post to say that I was saying Cerny was doing us a favour by telling us how the PS5 architecture works. When I'm straight up saying he is being straight up about what can be seen as flaws to people.

Good point.
It doesn't need it. It's just a more powerful console.

The sooner some reconcile themselves with this the quicker they can focus on how both will be great.

I don't think this is happening as much as some ppl think.
MS themselves described SSD as revolutionary, and that if it is fast enough it changes the game as it can be used more efficiently as virtual RAM etc. It's factual that we have elevator scenes, narrow corridors etc to hide loading and limit game design, that we have pop in and reduced asset variety due to slower IO.

So maybe MS and reality are lying as well as Cerny now?

Each console has their strengths. No need to be so insecure as to try and belittle SSDs to "simply loading times". There's a reason fast IO was the number one request by developers.



The amount of sheer FUD going around here is unreal. 18% weaker GPU is the closest two consoles have ever been in history. And no, SSDs are not "just load times", unless you don't believe MS now too?



Ah yes, the old "SSDs are only revolutionary UP TO 2.5GB/sec (the XSX number) but anything after that offers "no benefit". Yes, Sony wasted all that R&D for nothing. So incompetent.

Just like all the SSD manufacturers pushing faster speeds as time goes on. Idiots.

Exactly. MS mentioned virtual ram when talking about the SSD. This was well before the PS5 specs for the SSD was confirmed. How that gets glossed over is amazing.

Its not that serious ppl.

Each console has their strengths? Even the lowly PS5?

Idontbelieveyou.gif
 
Last edited:

eso76

Prophet of Truth
Member
Dec 8, 2017
8,107
Right and Even with the architecture MS has nothing is going to make up for the double the speed the PS5 SSD has.

I don't know about that.
From my understanding, DirectStorage sounds like it will make accessing data a lot more efficient by not needing to load the same large chunks of data over and over fetching the single texture it needs.
Wouldn't that make up for the lower raw speed ? honest question
 

behOemoth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,611
I don't know about that.
From my understanding, DirectStorage sounds like it will make accessing data a lot more efficient by not needing to load the same large chunks of data over and over fetching the single texture it needs.
Wouldn't that make up for the lower raw speed ? honest question
It sounds like you are speaking of the sections which can be read almost instantly in comparison to HDDs. Cerny explained this very thoroughly.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,992
Depends what you mean for higher quality. The PS5 SSD allows for double the asset streaming over the XSX, theoretically at least. Real life performance who knows.

The thing is, if that winds up being the case, or more of a variety of assets... is it that serious for the PS5 to have an advantage over the Series X?

That is what I see some ppl not being able to accept. Or that the consoles are closer in power than this gen was.
 

G_Zero

alt account
Banned
Mar 19, 2019
457
Yeah, that's been discussed here before, and it's true. You can see it from the numbers they've published.

The XSX SSD has a speed of 2.4 GB/s, and 4.8 with compression. That's a 50% uplift. The PS5 SSD has a speed of 5.5 GB/s, and 9 with compression. That's a 39% uplift.

So Kraken is faster, but not enough to make a huge difference. Certainly not enough to beat the PS5 SSD in practice.
 

BeI

Member
Dec 9, 2017
5,974
Much weaker...

Seriously there have not been two consoles this close since forever and a 20% difference in GPU power will probably not even be perceivable unless shown by DF in a 500% zoomed in picture or one running at an average of 59 vs 56 FPS....

Well the clock speed on the PS5 makes the specs look closer, but the raw shader counts (52 CUs vs 36) might be something to consider. When looking at a RX 5700 XT vs 5700 (40 CU vs 36; ~11% shader increase), the 5700 XT usually comes out 10-15% ahead, although I found a video of the 5700 @ 2.15 Ghz vs the 5700XT @ 1.75 Ghz (similar to clock speed gap of PS5 and Xbox):



It shows that the heavily OC'd 5700 can roughly make up the performance difference and perform similar to the 40 CU 5700 XT. But the Xbox has 30% more shaders than that, and seemingly higher bandwidth as well, so it seems like a 30%+ difference in performance could be quite possible.

Overclocking seems to only usually increase performance 10-15% at best most of the time, and a 44% shader difference (with a bandwidth advantage) would be a tall order to overcome, imo.

Edit: On topic, I don't think the SSD will generally matter too much for games, but it could make some aspects of the UI / booting smoother than the Xbox, imo.
 

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,701
Tokyo
The thing is, if that winds up being the case, or more of a variety of assets... is it that serious for the PS5 to have an advantage over the Series X?

That is what I see some ppl not being able to accept. Or that the consoles are closer in power than this gen was.

No real idea how it will play out since we have no games showing off the advantages
 

SoSchwifty

Member
Jan 3, 2020
84
Sigh. Shut the thread down. We've hit "Everything is a lie and spin to make it look better!" phase of the thread in record time.

He obviously wasn't being completely transparent or truthful. There are plenty of details he left out like how much it downscales and what the CPU clock is when the GPU is at the max and vice versa... If he was transparent and truthful about those key issues there would not be all this talk and questioning going on... He left things murky of his own accord and to help his product look better.
 

Broken Hope

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,316
We've never had games designed around having super fast storage being baseline before so we have no clue how much of a difference it will make.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Yeah, that's been discussed here before, and it's true. You can see it from the numbers they've published.

The XSX SSD has a speed of 2.4 GB/s, and 4.8 with compression. That's a 50% uplift. The PS5 SSD has a speed of 5.5 GB/s, and 9 with compression. That's a 39% uplift.

So Kraken is faster, but not enough to make a huge difference. Certainly not enough to beat the PS5 SSD in practice.

This is the direct opposite of what engineers have said.
 
Dec 8, 2018
1,911
Well the clock speed on the PS5 makes the specs look closer, but the raw shader counts (52 CUs vs 36) might be something to consider. When looking at a RX 5700 XT vs 5700 (40 CU vs 36; ~11% shader increase), the 5700 XT usually comes out 10-15% ahead, although I found a video of the 5700 @ 2.15 Ghz vs the 5700XT @ 1.75 Ghz (similar to clock speed gap of PS5 and Xbox):



It shows that the heavily OC'd 5700 can roughly make up the performance difference and perform similar to the 40 CU 5700 XT. But the Xbox has 30% more shaders than that, and seemingly higher bandwidth as well, so it seems like a 30%+ difference in performance could be quite possible.

Overclocking seems to only usually increase performance 10-15% at best most of the time, and a 44% shader difference (with a bandwidth advantage) would be a tall order to overcome, imo.

Edit: On topic, I don't think the SSD will generally matter too much for games, but it could make some aspects of the UI / booting smoother than the Xbox, imo.


We will simply have to wait and see how this all plays out since there are multiple unknowns and how easy it will be for developers to get as much as possible out of the machines. 52 CU is also harder to properly get the most out of compared to 36 so arguing or making certain claims at this point is useless. There will be answers half a year from now probably but until then this on paper is not even in question a lot closer than any of the competing machines from Sony and MS of this generation. That multiple devs working with them as well says the same thing should proof enough.
 

True_fan

Banned
Mar 19, 2020
391
Well the clock speed on the PS5 makes the specs look closer, but the raw shader counts (52 CUs vs 36) might be something to consider. When looking at a RX 5700 XT vs 5700 (40 CU vs 36; ~11% shader increase), the 5700 XT usually comes out 10-15% ahead, although I found a video of the 5700 @ 2.15 Ghz vs the 5700XT @ 1.75 Ghz (similar to clock speed gap of PS5 and Xbox):



It shows that the heavily OC'd 5700 can roughly make up the performance difference and perform similar to the 40 CU 5700 XT. But the Xbox has 30% more shaders than that, and seemingly higher bandwidth as well, so it seems like a 30%+ difference in performance could be quite possible.

Overclocking seems to only usually increase performance 10-15% at best most of the time, and a 44% shader difference (with a bandwidth advantage) would be a tall order to overcome, imo.

Edit: On topic, I don't think the SSD will generally matter too much for games, but it could make some aspects of the UI / booting smoother than the Xbox, imo.

Great post. The difference In raw power is 20-30% after including overclocking and that's based on like hardware comparisons. It's really funny to hear people try to convince themselves the XSX has a "marginal" power gap.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
The thing is, if that winds up being the case, or more of a variety of assets... is it that serious for the PS5 to have an advantage over the Series X?

That is what I see some ppl not being able to accept. Or that the consoles are closer in power than this gen was.
It's as serious as every console ever had in history. Uptalk advantages of the console of your team, do the opposite for the other. Every. Console. Generation. And the same is already happening again.
 

CanisMajoris

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
887
Well the clock speed on the PS5 makes the specs look closer, but the raw shader counts (52 CUs vs 36) might be something to consider. When looking at a RX 5700 XT vs 5700 (40 CU vs 36; ~11% shader increase), the 5700 XT usually comes out 10-15% ahead, although I found a video of the 5700 @ 2.15 Ghz vs the 5700XT @ 1.75 Ghz (similar to clock speed gap of PS5 and Xbox):



It shows that the heavily OC'd 5700 can roughly make up the performance difference and perform similar to the 40 CU 5700 XT. But the Xbox has 30% more shaders than that, and seemingly higher bandwidth as well, so it seems like a 30%+ difference in performance could be quite possible.

Overclocking seems to only usually increase performance 10-15% at best most of the time, and a 44% shader difference (with a bandwidth advantage) would be a tall order to overcome, imo.

Edit: On topic, I don't think the SSD will generally matter too much for games, but it could make some aspects of the UI / booting smoother than the Xbox, imo.



This is a bad example for multiple reasons. People should accept that there is 15-18% GPU power difference and move on.
 

Lukas Taves

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,713
Brazil
Didn't Cerny say RDNA2 scales better with higher frequency than more CUs? Maybe I'm missing something, but the video just claimed the exact opposite.
No he said gpus in general, but that was misleading in the least, as the opposite effect can be observed. And with every new gpu generation CU utilization increases too. And Rdna2 will likely be even more CU count dependent with extra compute workloads such as RT, ML and Mesh shaders that are not available on rdna.

He also used geometry processing as an example of workload that doesn't scale well with CUs, which is also a dishonest example because yeah, geometry processing underutilized the CUs due the index buffer (which links a bunch of vertices in the order where they compose the geometry) since that's a unified resource, even if you split the work across several CUs you'd have to have synchronization points which is very bad for performance. But that's only a problem with the current geometry pipeline. Rdna2 and Turing have a new geometry pipeline that gets rid of the unified index buffer precisely so geometry loads can utilize the whole CU array.
 

eso76

Prophet of Truth
Member
Dec 8, 2017
8,107
It sounds like you are speaking of the sections which can be read almost instantly in comparison to HDDs. Cerny explained this very thoroughly.

But afaik Sony hasn't addressed the fact that you still need to load huge chunks of data, possibly over and over, when all you're fetching is a single texture.
MS's DirectStorage apparently makes it possible to fetch and load just the data you need without having to transfer and read through 1GB of mostly useless stuff.

To me, it sounds like it could certainly make up for the lower speed in several scenarios, but no one is talking about it and i would like to know more.
 

More Butter

Banned
Jun 12, 2018
1,890
Wow, this person has both consoles in their possession and has stress tested both against numerous, yet to be released games to be able to say "it's only advantage could be loading times and that's it". Time to wrap up all future console comparison and discussion threads now this expert from the future has spoken.

/s
I certainly wouldn't emphatically talk about the storage as if it was negligible. PS5 has a faster and seemingly more sophisticated storage solution however the Xbox SSD is no slouch and seems like a good solution. That being said the person you responded to is completely right to say that Xbox is stronger. We know enough from official sources to understand that the Xbox is the stronger box.
 

Broken Hope

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,316
Great post. The difference In raw power is 20-30% after including overclocking and that's based on like hardware comparisons. It's really funny to hear people try to convince themselves the XSX has a "marginal" power gap.
You mean like the people that try to claim Sony having a SSD that's twice as fast just means slightly faster loading times and no other advantage?
 

Lukas Taves

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,713
Brazil
Well the clock speed on the PS5 makes the specs look closer, but the raw shader counts (52 CUs vs 36) might be something to consider. When looking at a RX 5700 XT vs 5700 (40 CU vs 36; ~11% shader increase), the 5700 XT usually comes out 10-15% ahead, although I found a video of the 5700 @ 2.15 Ghz vs the 5700XT @ 1.75 Ghz (similar to clock speed gap of PS5 and Xbox):



It shows that the heavily OC'd 5700 can roughly make up the performance difference and perform similar to the 40 CU 5700 XT. But the Xbox has 30% more shaders than that, and seemingly higher bandwidth as well, so it seems like a 30%+ difference in performance could be quite possible.

Overclocking seems to only usually increase performance 10-15% at best most of the time, and a 44% shader difference (with a bandwidth advantage) would be a tall order to overcome, imo.

Edit: On topic, I don't think the SSD will generally matter too much for games, but it could make some aspects of the UI / booting smoother than the Xbox, imo.

One extra point is that the 5700 at 2.15ghz is a 9.9tflops part, and the XT at 1.75ghz is 8.9tflops.

This means that the higher clock couldn't even make a tflops advantage show up in practice. Sure this adds to the point that tflops isn't the end of all when it comes to performance, but if you think of tflops as a ratio metric of CU count * CU speed, it becomes a how many work resources you have than it means that the 5700 at 2.15ghz is actually being less utilized than the XT.

And on SX vs Ps5 this actually favors SX. SX has more "worker resources" in a setup that seems to scale better. And also has extra bandwidth which is an advantage that the XT didn't have over 5700.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
So Cerny is lying? Did you even watch the video? He very clearly stated where higher clockspeeds would be beneficial.
There are benefits to higher clockspeed, even if increasing clockspeed doesn't scale linear. But as eathdemon said more CU got benefits and Cerny never talked about those nor did he say more CU is bad. Basically he didn't lie, but he didn't objectively compared the drawbacks and benefits either.

Didn't Cerny say RDNA2 scales better with higher frequency than more CUs? Maybe I'm missing something, but the video just claimed the exact opposite.
I don't think he said this. He just said higher frequency has benefits, which is true. He just left out the part of more CU having benefits, too. I highly rate Cerny and thinks it's fair to do, because as everyone else they need to sell their new product and the flaws of the systems (Xbox, PS5) will be revealed, when they market the PS6, Next Xbox.

I think the only time we got an first party employee criticising an current product was Kaz (Gran Turismo) talking about the PS3.

I am rather suspect on that. graphics is highly paralized by nature. also more cus, means more rt hardware as well.
Agree.
 

Lukas Taves

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,713
Brazil
You mean like the people that try to claim Sony having a SSD that's twice as fast just means slightly faster loading times and no other advantage?
Because there's only so much data the gpu can consume, and there's no evidence that shows the SX ssd not being able to feed the gpu in mind.

Keep in mind also that the sx ssd is 2 times slower but only has to load 2-3 times less data as a platform feature.

Most likely scenario is that both consoles will have the same level of detail on screen and virtually no loading times, with disk space and production capacity posing to be bigger limits than the speed of either ssd.
 

Bait02

Member
Jan 5, 2019
645
In the end I think this next-gen will be mora a "war" of exlcusives and subscription services.
As for specs I believe the difference will be both smaller and less relevant compared the the gap between OG Ps4 and Xbox One.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,734
But afaik Sony hasn't addressed the fact that you still need to load huge chunks of data, possibly over and over, when all you're fetching is a single texture.
MS's DirectStorage apparently makes it possible to fetch and load just the data you need without having to transfer and read through 1GB of mostly useless stuff.

To me, it sounds like it could certainly make up for the lower speed in several scenarios, but no one is talking about it and i would like to know more.

You don't have to read big chunks of data just to get to one file. I think you might be referring to techniques used to better identify texture mip levels that are actually needed? Microsoft talked about exposing more information from texture samplers in Dx12 to let the code more easily/precisely determine what mip levels are actually needed at a point in time, to avoid loading all mip levels - I think this might be what you're thinking about?

Sony hasn't gone into details of what it's added to its APIs for PS5 - indeed they may never publicly - but I think it's quite possible or probable there'll be similar supports for that there. AFAIK Sony's support for PRT and limited kinds of sampler feedback was up to scratch in PS4's API vs DX et al at the time, they highlighted it in the one public presentation they gave at GDC on the PS4's graphics API, so I'm sure it's quite probable that they're aware of and will expose how newer hardware can help those things further.
 

sado0og

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
179
User banned (1 week): Trolling. Platform Wars. History of similar behavior. Account in junior phase.
Each console has their strengths. No need to be so insecure as to try and belittle SSDs to "simply loading times". There's a reason fast IO was the number one request by developers.

based on Cerny lies.....

none spoke about it was the no.1 request by developers except Cerny

Just for marketing
 

Broken Hope

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,316
Is this some more FUD?

Both can compress data (XSX figure 4.8GB/sec, PS5 8-9GB/sec).

Any other API level stuff can be easily replicated and more than likely both consoles have similar features.
I believe he's referring to stuff like direct storage etc completely ignoring that Sony can and likely will add something similar to their API.