Ahh, so you class all those NES games that released last year on the Switch as new games?
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GameXplain: 10 Lessons that 2D Mario can learn from Donkey Kong: Tropical Freeze
- Thread starter Lozjam
- Start date
Ahh, so you class all those NES games that released last year on the Switch as new games?
Don't be that guy. Fact is this NEW Super Mario Bros series lost its newness a long time ago. And 13 years later they're still releasing NSMB games. It's time to move on. This series was never that good to begin with but it sold craploads because of the brand.
Ports are ports. Nintendo already moved on to Super Mario Maker so talking about 13 years is disingenuous.
You're not this blind are you?
Straight ports uploaded into a subscription service for a flat $20 yearly fee as a bonus is hardly the same as porting a game like NSMBU, add some new stuff, change its title, and resell the 6 year old game for the same price they sold it in 2012 at $60 USD!
Well, not that I agree with the poster you quoted, but that doesn't mean the New Super Mario Bros. series is finished, the more they sell the more likely we'll see more.
I'm not arguing anything. I was explaining "where 13 years came from." I obviously don't consider a port with minimal enhancements a new game.
What's price got to do with anything? We were talking about Nintendo releasing 'New' games for 13 years when the last one released 6.5 years ago. The NES games have also added some new stuff and changed titles, too.
NSMBU is a fine game (especially Challenge Mode) but I never understood why people praise it so much. A lot of the levels just reuse ideas from NSMBWii and as such it didn't really feel fresh to me.
Some people here excuse NSMBU for being an older game but even DKCR easily beats NSMBU in terms of creativity, despite being a "New DKC" type of deal by reusing DK Island as its setting.
Some people here excuse NSMBU for being an older game but even DKCR easily beats NSMBU in terms of creativity, despite being a "New DKC" type of deal by reusing DK Island as its setting.
I'm on board with points 1, 3.
But in general, I think the criticism of recent 2D Mario games is overblown. NSBMU is a god-tier platformer in its own right. And it offers a kind of free-form, improvisational 2D platforming, with 4-player co-op, that you can't get in DKC. I love Tropical Freeze, but I'd rather Mario continued to do its own thing rather than ape DKC. (I mean, aside from the obvious lesson of taking some pride in music/presentation).
But in general, I think the criticism of recent 2D Mario games is overblown. NSBMU is a god-tier platformer in its own right. And it offers a kind of free-form, improvisational 2D platforming, with 4-player co-op, that you can't get in DKC. I love Tropical Freeze, but I'd rather Mario continued to do its own thing rather than ape DKC. (I mean, aside from the obvious lesson of taking some pride in music/presentation).
Yes Nintendo keeps rereleasing their NES games but they're straight ports and for much much much more reduced prices than how they were originally available for. And no they don't change the titles of these NES straight ports! Are you arguing in bad faith?
NSMBU and NSMBU Deluxe are not the same exact game (hence not straight ports) and they're being sold for the same price 6 years apart. It's their flagship launch for January. I wouldn't call Wario's Woods on Nintendo Online a flagship release anywhere for anyone.
Luigi U is such a better game compared to Mario Bros U. Shorter, well-designed, more diffcult and tight as hell! It feels like the developers learned their lesson from the base game and really upped the ante for Luigi U.
Second best 2D Mario for me by far. Seems like it always gets ignored when discussing Mario Bros U. Shame it still has the same, mostly forgettable music as the former though.
Second best 2D Mario for me by far. Seems like it always gets ignored when discussing Mario Bros U. Shame it still has the same, mostly forgettable music as the former though.
DCKR and TF in-stage story telling is the main reason I don't really like these games. It severally limits the way you can play the game. The bulk of it story telling involves pushing the player through the stage at a certain pace and limiting exploration. I don't care how well you decorate it.... An autoscroll and/or unidirectional stage still feels like an autoscroll and/or unidirectional stage. For all of the NSMB series faults, DKCR isn't the series I'd want it to learn from... just bringing it up to the level of the other Mario series would solve its problems.
You should have a look in the NES app and you'll find some interesting things.
Why does the price or being the flagship January game matter in a discussion about Nintendo releasing too many 'New' games. When they've released 4 with the last launching 6 and a half years ago? Was TF classed as a new game from Retro when it released on Switch? I hope not because if that's all they've got to show for their last 5 years of work then it would be embarrassing for the studio.
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Excelent, excelent video.
If I may offer a hot-take, most of the arguments could be reused when comparing Super Mario World (which is obviously an amazing game) to Donkey Kong Country 2, which is, in my opinion, the true GOAT platformer of that generation.
If I may offer a hot-take, most of the arguments could be reused when comparing Super Mario World (which is obviously an amazing game) to Donkey Kong Country 2, which is, in my opinion, the true GOAT platformer of that generation.
The issue I got with these videos is they always bring up the same levels as "Diverse!"...
Sawmill, Fruit World, Jungle Fire and Tornado level.
Like, do all levels/world do theming that great or only the ones always listed?
Dunkey also described the difference well:
You can play DKCR and TF at a ridiculously fast pace if you're good enough and the levels even have much more optional exploration than the NSMB games.
As posted above, Mark Browns video on the subject is much better.
But Tropical Freeze is probably the best 2D platformer ever. Could make a case for Super Mario Bros 3, Mario World, Yoshi's island etc. But a lot of that is their impact on gaming, longevity and how well they stand up 20+ years later. Tropical freeze is magnificent though.
But Tropical Freeze is probably the best 2D platformer ever. Could make a case for Super Mario Bros 3, Mario World, Yoshi's island etc. But a lot of that is their impact on gaming, longevity and how well they stand up 20+ years later. Tropical freeze is magnificent though.
I don't think this is really fair to say. Tropical Freeze has a lot of hidden exits and other elements that reward exploration. Sure, you can go ever forward if you want to (except for that one open puzzle-based world 4 stage), but there are a bunch of reasons to be on the lookout for hidden areas and small details that give them away, which makes for a much more nuanced playthrough.
I've watched the video and while I agree that Tropical Freeze is a better platformer than New Mario U I still don't really see what makes it that much better.
New Mario U is a really good game and Tropical Freeze is a great game. What makes Tropical Freeze great is it's ambition and presentation something that if any New Mario game had would definitely go toe to toe with Tropical Freeze.
I don't consider the New Mario games a cancer on the series especially when there hasn't been one in 7 years and the one we got is essentially a port but I do hope whatever Nintendo does with the next 2D Mario is considerably more ambitious. Even doing like what A Link Between World but for 2D Mario would be enough if they still want to keep 2D Mario more inviting and standard.
New Mario U is a really good game and Tropical Freeze is a great game. What makes Tropical Freeze great is it's ambition and presentation something that if any New Mario game had would definitely go toe to toe with Tropical Freeze.
I don't consider the New Mario games a cancer on the series especially when there hasn't been one in 7 years and the one we got is essentially a port but I do hope whatever Nintendo does with the next 2D Mario is considerably more ambitious. Even doing like what A Link Between World but for 2D Mario would be enough if they still want to keep 2D Mario more inviting and standard.
Lol they go with this and give the game a flat like aesthetic people are gonna berate the game and call it cheapSpeaking of 2D Mario, my prediction/hope is that the next 2D Mario will try to emulate the official artwork style:
Good Feel seemed to have managed to do it with wario and nobody i know at the time said it looked cheap. Just a shame Shake It was overlooked. The music and artstyle are special.
Especially if you compare it to ACTUAL crap art like Sonic 4. Its night and day.
Thats no where near Kotabe's artstyle imo. His is a bit more simpler than that. Shake it looks pretty detailed.Good Feel seemed to have managed to do it with wario and nobody i know at the time said it looked cheap. Just a shame Shake It was overlooked. The music and artstyle are special.
Especially if you compare it to ACTUAL crap like Sonic 4. Its night and day.
It definitely is finished...Super Mario Maker has made the need for new 2D Mario games obsolete.
id say both tropical freeze and mario bros u are incredible games (id put rayman legends and celeste in there too). compare that to most of the platformers out there and these games are so much better. i mean crash triology for example feels so clunky in comparison.
goodfeel is great but gameplaywise epic yarn and yoshis wooly world are not in the same league as mario u or dkc tf.. id say graphically they sure look more interesting thoughGood Feel seemed to have managed to do it with wario and nobody i know at the time said it looked cheap. Just a shame Shake It was overlooked. The music and artstyle are special.
Especially if you compare it to ACTUAL crap art like Sonic 4. Its night and day.
1. Too much downtime.
I 100% agree in principal, but they must have a shitty SD card because I've never seen a black screen that long while playing NSMBU.
2. Make every level distinct.
Platformers that make every level distinct typically also have fewer but longer levels. This is an issue of pacing, not necessarily content. NSMBU is definitely overly bland though. Also: "Tropical Freeze has the most variety of any 2D platformer." No, I'd probably give that to Sonic 3&K or Sonic Mania.
3. Have a better soundtrack.
Yes.
4. Context.
Yes, but do it better than Tropical Freeze. There were multiple points in that game where I mistook background decoration for a usable platform.
5. Characters with personality
Yes, but this is minor.
6. Surprise
Yes. This is just basic game design. NSMBU is an abnormally bland game, probably because it was designed with 4 player co-op among people with different skill levels in mind.
7. Have narrative within the levels
Yes.
8. Give further control
This doesn't have anything to do with Tropical Freeze, it's just another opportunity to complain about NSMBU Deluxe's spin jump. The roll in DKC is just a different execution of the basic "run to jump farther".
9. Have better rewards
This is primarily just complaining that the extra levels in NSMBU should be harder.
10. Better artstyle
YES!
I 100% agree in principal, but they must have a shitty SD card because I've never seen a black screen that long while playing NSMBU.
2. Make every level distinct.
Platformers that make every level distinct typically also have fewer but longer levels. This is an issue of pacing, not necessarily content. NSMBU is definitely overly bland though. Also: "Tropical Freeze has the most variety of any 2D platformer." No, I'd probably give that to Sonic 3&K or Sonic Mania.
3. Have a better soundtrack.
Yes.
4. Context.
Yes, but do it better than Tropical Freeze. There were multiple points in that game where I mistook background decoration for a usable platform.
5. Characters with personality
Yes, but this is minor.
6. Surprise
Yes. This is just basic game design. NSMBU is an abnormally bland game, probably because it was designed with 4 player co-op among people with different skill levels in mind.
7. Have narrative within the levels
Yes.
8. Give further control
This doesn't have anything to do with Tropical Freeze, it's just another opportunity to complain about NSMBU Deluxe's spin jump. The roll in DKC is just a different execution of the basic "run to jump farther".
9. Have better rewards
This is primarily just complaining that the extra levels in NSMBU should be harder.
10. Better artstyle
YES!
The NSMB series as a whole needs to retire. Despite that NSMBU is by far the best in the series, is still far from the best that people at Nintendo can produce, recent reception should tell them that people want something actually new.
It's not that the game doesn't reward exploration... it's that the levels aren't designed for exploration. Even ignoring the autoscroll and chase stages, every level in the game is segmented in a way that prevents the player from returning to the previous areas. Those segment breaks aren't even always obvious. So exploration becomes very repetitious.
Lol no. They just need to inject some new life by ditching nsmb style and game design
It's a sacrifice for multiplayer.
For me personally, I'd like a different take on multiplayer. The chaos of all 4 at once isn't fun and comes at the cost of better level design for single player
These are my wishes for the series. It's time for a change for sure. These three things would help a lot. It's not like the music is bad quality it's just that everyone is sick of the same NSMB sound being used over and over.
It depends upon how it's done. The latest Rayman games are praised highly for their inventive art and music. The same treatment for Mario would be divine.
Also, for those saying that NSMBU isnt a "new" game and thus is not indicative of current 2D Mario; you're not necessarily wrong. It did come out about 7 year ago. However, the rerelease of U for Switch essentially solidified the fact that we likely will not get a new 2D Mario on the system at all, and that sucks for thoses waiting for something fresh from the side scrolling series.
I like NSMBU and would consider the music to be the biggest offender art-wise (I actually kind of like the simple visuals!), but the series needs a change up, man. Point to all the charts and sales numbers you want telling me otherwise, but the games are utterly uninspiring and haven't changed a damn thing in over a decade!
GameXplain as usual is on point.
I can get behind this. That art is magnificent.Speaking of 2D Mario, my prediction/hope is that the next 2D Mario will try to emulate the official artwork style:
SMM had 3 game style and they also design levels within that. People seem to miss that it is the new 2D Mario and has 2D Mario stage design, in the dev created stages.
Honestly the only way i can see myself going back to 2D Mario (not counting Mario maker) is if the next title is some kind of Mario/DK crossover made by Retro - sounds like a great way to actually make it fresh and interesting and still sell like crazy.
Retro with both DK and Mario to play around with would be a dream
Retro with both DK and Mario to play around with would be a dream
I'm getting a lot of "why do you hate Mario, you monster" messages on Twitter - I don't hate NSMB U, I think it's a well designed platformer but there are plenty of areas worth criticising. It's more than just the art direction and I hope that comes across in the video. It's been 13 years since the original NSMB and plenty of other franchises have made signicant innovations, meanwhile the last drastic addition to NSMB was multiplayer. I'm well aware that NSMB U was a Wii U launch title in 2012 but even DKC Returns showcased far more ambition.
Get out of my head! I literally wrote this as a note about 30 minutes ago for a potential video:
"Crossover! Mario + Donkey Kong. Start in Mario's world, go to Donkey Kong's. Mario rides on DK's back "
Challenge not based on coins and that starts earlier than it does now. Takes way too long
