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GameXplain: 10 Lessons that 2D Mario can learn from Donkey Kong: Tropical Freeze

Lozjam

Lozjam

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A video came out from our own friend here Jonneh.
Usually, I would really say something to join in the discussion, add myself a piece of the pie. But the only thing that can say, is that he is 100% right. My hope really is that Nintendo doesn't rest on its laurels with 2D installments of Mario from this point on. Tropical Freeze is truly the game we need and deserve.


Bah me if old.
 

Deleted member 1413

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Oct 25, 2017
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You know NSMBU was a launch title that came out like 6-7 years ago, right?
Don't think they have too much to learn, mostly just change up the presentation that's been likely using tech established on the DS.

Hope they learn a few things from Super Mario Run, though. There's a lot of neat additions to that game that feel pretty great
 

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Cartridge Games said:
You know NSMBU was a launch title that came out like 6-7 years ago, right?
Don't think they have too much to learn, mostly just change up the presentation that's been likely using tech established on the DS
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You..didn't watch the video did you?

You really should watch the video as it explains in details to why Tropical Freeze have surpassed the Mario series.
 
Charamiwa

Charamiwa

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Oct 25, 2017
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Yes, I appreciate the video. It's not just the artstyle and the music that's wrong with NSMBU, and people casually stating that it's one of if not the best 2D platformer ever tend to give me pause. It's such a flawed and backward game in a lot of ways.
 
jwhit28

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Oct 25, 2017
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As long as console 2D Mario is built around 4 player multiplayer, I don't think they can keep up with the best 2D platformers. I think Tropical Freeze is the best 2D platformer ever but co-op even with another very skilled player doesn't gel well without liberal use of the riding on DK's back feature.
 

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Mr-Joker said:
You..didn't watch the video did you?

You really should watch the video as it explains in details to why Tropical Freeze have surpassed the Mario series.
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I'm referring to the title. I know points in the video.

The point is that NSMBU/the last mainline non-maker 2D Mario predates TF.
Guess we'll see with whatever they try next, but it'll likely be a change up
 
Dynheart

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I mean, both games are good if you ask me. Funny thing is, they are both Nintendo IP's, so is Nintendo in competition with themselves here? Heh
 
No Depth

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Oct 27, 2017
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Nothing I disagree with watching that video, but it is maybe slightly disingenuous to not mention specifically that NSMBU was a launch title rushed to meet the Wii U launch and maybe not the yardstick by which a proper entry in the 2D mario space(SMB5?) would exhibit.

But yes, in contrasting DKTF and NSMBU specifically, there are many aspects of the design that deservedly are done better in Rare's game.
 
NotLiquid

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Cartridge Games said:
I'm referring to the title. I know points in the video.

The point is that NSMBU/the last mainline non-maker 2D Mario predates TF.
Guess we'll see with whatever they try next, but it'll likely be a change up
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I think the fact that NSMBU is old goes without saying. That just makes a cross-point comparison all the more integral for when Mario inevitably will come with a new 2D game, given how long it's been. Regardless of whether they follow up the NSMB formula, there's still a lot to learn from Tropical Freeze, and whether or not NSMBU was rushed, that's still the last reference point we have of Nintendo giving us a 2D Mario.
 

PrimeBeef

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Oct 27, 2017
5,840
Well one game is better. I don't consider 1 game a trend. And DKCTF is one of, if not the best, platformers of all time. Let's see how the next entries fair before claiming that 2D mario is dying or anything like that.

With that. NSMBU is a very good platformee regardless of what people think of how it looked.
 
AztecComplex

AztecComplex

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mrmickfran said:
  • Have good music
  • Have an enticing art style
  • Have some new world ideas
There you go
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This!

I remember a time when every new 2D Mario used to look entirely different from its predecessor (the exception being SMB2JP which stayed JP exclusive partially because of this).

No one would confuse SMB1 from 2, or 3, or World, or World 2 (Yoshi's Island). It was even true with the Land games with Land 1 and 2 being so different!

Now show a screen of NSMB1, NSMB Wii, NSMB2 and NSMB U to someone who hasn't played them and see how many get them mixed up! These games don't even change the font of the titles! They're all virtually identical save for the last part that either has a "2" or has the name of the console which they launched on. They're so boring!

I'm done with the NSMB games. We've had them for almost 15 years now, they've already gone for longer than the original sub of Super MARIO games that went from 1985's SMB to 1992's SMLand 2 (or 1995 of you wanna count Yoshi's Island). There's nothing "New" in NSMB anymore. It's time to retire that sub series but 2D Mario games should continue!
 

Deleted member 17627

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Whenever we do get the next New Super Mario Bros game (sort of surprised we ended up getting this instead of a sequel, honestly makes me think we'll be getting a Super Mario Maker 2 soon instead), it definitely needs to be a little bit innovative instead of just doing the "two new power ups" deal that's been going on in every sequel since the first game.

Personally, if they would just put some effort into both the level design and themes instead of doing the same thing yet again, that would go a long way for me. Would love for something Super Mario World inspired.
 
OP
OP
Lozjam

Lozjam

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No Depth said:
Nothing I disagree with watching that video, but it is maybe slightly disingenuous to not mention specifically that NSMBU was a launch title rushed to meet the Wii U launch and maybe not the yardstick by which a proper entry in the 2D mario space(SMB5?) would exhibit.

But yes, in contrasting DKTF and NSMBU specifically, there are many aspects of the design that deservedly are done better in Rare's game.
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Donkey Kong Country Returns also came out 2 years before NSMBU.
 
PlayBee

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Seems heavily inspired by what people like Kyle Bosman, Mark Brown, and Dunkey (lol) have already said but it's a good summary of all the relevant points.
 
Waluigilicious

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Oct 27, 2017
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I think I spend way too much time on the internet, because it feels like I'm constantly reminded that GameXplain isn't too fond of NSMBU DX. It's fine, they don't have to like everything.
 
jett

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Oct 25, 2017
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This video is so on point, and DKCTF is so good.

I don't understand why some people insist in defending the objective mediocrity that are the the NSMB games. What's the problem with this devteam anyway? Creative bankruptcy? Dearth of artistic talent and technical prowess? Lacking in any ambition whatsoever? If it's a matter of budget, why isn't Nintendo providing the necessary resources for a 2D Mario game?
 
WestEgg

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I don't blame OP or Gamexplain for this, but with all the resurgence around DKCTF lately, it seems that people are really shook by NSMBUDX coming out and doing so well today. And I say this as someone who thinks Tropical Freeze is easily the better game.
 
Zen Hero

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No Depth said:
Nothing I disagree with watching that video, but it is maybe slightly disingenuous to not mention specifically that NSMBU was a launch title rushed to meet the Wii U launch and maybe not the yardstick by which a proper entry in the 2D mario space(SMB5?) would exhibit.
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That's true. On the other hand, there have been plenty of NSMB games so they have had a lot of opportunity to improve. And 2D platformer is a very old genre with lots of time to learn lessons about game design. For those reasons, I'm not sure I entirely buy the idea that NSMBU's problems come from the fact that it may have been rushed for launch.

Anyway, hopefully they do take the opportunity to improve on the next SMB game, whatever it is. Mario deserves it.
 
Evildeadhead

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Oct 26, 2017
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AztecComplex said:
This!

I remember a time when every new 2D Mario used to look entirely different from its predecessor (the exception being SMB2JP which stayed JP exclusive partially because of this).

No one would confuse SMB1 from 2, or 3, or World, or World 2 (Yoshi's Island). It was even true with the Land games with Land 1 and 2 being so different!

Now show a screen of NSMB1, NSMB Wii, NSMB2 and NSMB U to someone who hasn't played them and see how many get them mixed up!

I'm done with the NSMB games. We've had them for almost 15 years now, they've already gone for longer than the original sub of Super MARIO games that went from 1985's SMB to 1992's SMLand 2 (or 1995 of you wanna count Yoshi's Island). There's nothing "New" in NSMB anymore. It's time to retire that sub series but 2D Mario games should continue!
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6.5 years between DS and U. If you're including ports the original SMB has just released on Switch 33 years after launch.
 
WestEgg

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Speaking of 2D Mario, my prediction/hope is that the next 2D Mario will try to emulate the official artwork style:

Club_Nintendo_Characters_Poster.png
 

AndreGX

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Oct 24, 2017
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WestEgg said:
I don't blame OP or Gamexplain for this, but with all the resurgence around DKCTF lately, it seems that people are really shook by NSMBUDX coming out and doing so well today. And I say this as someone who thinks Tropical Freeze is easily the better game.
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It took Jon just slightly more than 3 hours to make the video, I assure you.

Fun Fact: Jon intended to play TF for only a couple of levels to grab footage...and only stopped 2 hours later
 
NateDrake

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Oct 24, 2017
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WestEgg said:
I don't blame OP or Gamexplain for this, but with all the resurgence around DKCTF lately, it seems that people are really shook by NSMBUDX coming out and doing so well today. And I say this as someone who thinks Tropical Freeze is easily the better game.
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Who is surprised by the game doing well? There was never any doubt it would sell well. It's a 2D Mario, it's on Switch, it's a new game for millions, and 2D Mario games excel with co-op and resonates well with a lot of people. NSMBU Deluxe selling well was a given.
 
wiill64

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Video nails most of the issues I have with NSMBU.
It could learn a couple of things from Super Mario World as well tbh, like letting you kick Koopa shells up or dropping them down, or giving Yoshi's different abilities depending on the colour of Koopa he eats, or letting you keep Yoshi if you finish a level with him, or letting the baby Yoshi's grow into full Yoshi's after eating enough.
 

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I think it's telling that the best NSMB game, which is at the same time one of the best 2D Mario games, still doesn't manage to touch the genius of Tropical Freeze. I also really like Mark Brown's longer video on why TF's level design is so much better:



Ultimately, the 2D games are made to appeal to as many people as possible and in turn come off as sterile and uninspired. NSMBU managed to break from the mold but still has some baffling design choices as outlined in the video.
 
OP
OP
Lozjam

Lozjam

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WestEgg said:
I don't blame OP or Gamexplain for this, but with all the resurgence around DKCTF lately, it seems that people are really shook by NSMBUDX coming out and doing so well today. And I say this as someone who thinks Tropical Freeze is easily the better game.
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NSMBU can and should do well. It's a good platformer. It's Wii U version also sold well. I actually expect NSMBUD to sell 10-15 million LTD. But with so many more people getting a chance to play it, now is a great time to dissect it more closely, so perhaps future titles will be better.
 
WestEgg

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AndreGX said:
It took Jon just slightly more than 3 hours to make the video, I assure you.
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I don't think it was reactionary and I largely agree with the video, just more the forum mood in general is very Pro-DK lately. Which is great, I just wish it didn't come at the expense of people putting down Mario.
 
Yukinari

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Andre's review perfectly encapsulated anything id say regarding NSMBU, even if i were asked if a newcomer should play it.

Telling that person to buy tropical freeze instead would be the right thing to do. Especially now with funky mode and all the hand holding in the switch version.
 
WestEgg

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NateDrake said:
Who is surprised by the game doing well? There was never any doubt it would sell well. It's a 2D Mario, it's on Switch, it's a new game for millions, and 2D Mario games excel with co-op and resonates well with a lot of people. NSMBU Deluxe selling well was a given.
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Yeah, I'm probably just letting some of the negativity in the sales threads get to me.
 
Nocturnowl

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I almost forgot my initial disappointment at reaching the last world of NSMBU and just getting World 8 lava land re-run, when the entire concept is the mushroom kingdom castle being taken over.
I like NSMBU a lot based on just how damn solid it is, but seeing Tropical Freeze and it compared directly like that, almost makes me want to renounce any claims I ever made about NSMBU being my fave 2D Mario.

Thing is, you know the 2D Mario team have it in them, hopefully the next swing at the series goes all out.
 
Boy Wander

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Having just replayed NSMBU as part of my current drive to go back through my Wii U collection, I can safely say that by far the biggest thing they need to fix is the "throwing you out of a level back to the map" thing. It was very visible to me on this playthrough, especially in levels where I died quite a lot.
 
Richardbro

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I mean, NSMBU is a great game but DKTF is the ******* goat platformer. So it makes any other platformer look flawed.
 
AztecComplex

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Loved this video. Agree 1000%.

I didn't know NSMBU Deluxe screwed up Jump! That's be a first for Nintendo!

Jesus, this sub series needs to be put down to pasture like right now! Not 2D Marios in general. Just this series which lost their right to be called "New" when they outlasted the run of the original 2D Marios. Is it really still new when there's 13 years between the oldest and newest in the series?
 
Evildeadhead

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AztecComplex said:
Loved this video. Agree 1000%.

I didn't know NSMBU Deluxe screwed up Jump! That's be a first for Nintendo!

Jesus, this sub series needs to be put down to pasture like right now! Not 2D Marios in general. Just this series which lost their right to be called "New" when they outlasted the run of the original 2D Marios. Is it really still new when there's 13 years between the oldest and newest in the series?
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Where you getting 13 years from?
 
Foffy

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I do wonder if the difference in design within the various Mario-"universe" games means each tries to emphasize something else, so that they fundamentally go down different paths. Mario is basically the bread and butter platforming foundation, Yoshi is a take of that in a slower, collect everything affair that's at a much more leisurely pace, the Wario games are more of that take but experiment with various ideas, and Donkey Kong is primarily focused on platforming that, at least to me, seems to deeply connected to environmental storytelling, something none of these other sub-series of games try to do.

What makes Tropical Freeze so good, for example, is that environmental storytelling, that you feel you're going through a fictional world. 2D Mario is just random assets thrown at you that you jump around, at this point.
 
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