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Deleted member 33597

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 17, 2017
366
Honestly one more reason to not watch this guy's video, from wikipedia to clickbait
This whole post is such an incredible display of mental gymnastics that it damn near deserves a trophy. This sentence of yours is the perfect culmination of sentence after sentence of irrelevant points that you just seemingly spewed out to justify your failure to actually sit down and see and hear the central points being made before attempting to refute them. I'm genuinely impressed at this display. You start off with a hostile shitpost, get called out on it, and rather than educate yourself on the topic, decide the best course of action is to keep arguing from a place of ignorance. How did you possibly land on this course of action and decide it was the best way to approach the topic?
 

Deleted member 1656

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,474
So-Cal
You did it, Assenzio. Instead of watching the video you spent the same amount of time (if not more) reading and replying to this thread, wherein discussion has been inaccurate and irrelevant regarding it in large part. But you saw through those inaccuracies and irrelevancies. You dispelled them. You didn't need to watch the video to dismantle it, because you can write better points without doing that. You defeated the clickbait video, its author, and us all. You win the thread.

giphy.gif
 

Amanita

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
88
I see his point. If games-as-a-service is really a service, then there must be a point at which the service is fulfilled. With normal services this can be a function of time (a one-hour guitar lesson, a month of internet) or state (your lawn has been mowed, your car has been washed). If your time was cut short or the job was left undone, then you have a right to complain. But with games-as-a-service, it's totally different; there are no comparable terms. Instead, you are "served" until the seller decides not to serve you anymore. I don't know of any service that works like this. Anything you buy access to, the first question is "For how long?" So I would agree with the guy in the video: games-as-a-service are simply not services. They're goods. And if they're goods, you can't have sellers revoking access to them.
 

Assenzio

Alt account
Banned
Mar 18, 2019
775
Because if you buy a hammer, and then the company that sold you the hammer takes it away from you, that is fraud

And that is what happens when a game you paid for is suddenly made unavailable to you

I don't know why his use of GaaS is getting to you, a lot of GaaS games are MP, but not all of them

SP GaaS games still have world events and timed quests that are generally run server side, and with more games being half on the disc, and half downloaded from the publisher, that will impact a lot of SP games too

It would be better to set a precedent where this information must be released to consumers when a publisher decides to end support of a game

There is no downside to at least talking about this, and if the way he presented his video gets it to more people and leads to more people having a serious debate, then that's a positive

Had he framed it another way you might not have clicked the thread and heard his point at all, but because he framed it that way, you came into this thread to prematurely call him an idiot, then got attacked for that, probably spent more time than you had planned on reading up on his points, and ended the quoted post above with "he might have good points"

Sounds like it worked, other than you being oddly upset at his terminology
The fact is that legally the hammer still belongs to you, you simply cannot use it.

We could fight for a law that would force publishers to keep at least a minor server running ever, but how you would use said hammer anyway without anybody playing said game?

The nature itself of a multiplayer game is unfortunately fleeting. The server part of the discussion is only part of the problem and not the problem itself.

Preservation of a multiplayer game is beyond a mere skin use. Even the solution proposed would help only pc games, what about SOCOM that is a console only game?

As I said we have an example of preservation at the moment with Ubisoft games, which I take the video maker did not even discuss. Unfortunately they can still cut the cordon to a game anyway.

You did it, Assenzio. Instead of watching the video you spent the same amount of time (if not more) reading and replying to this thread, wherein discussion has been inaccurate and irrelevant regarding it in large part. But you saw through those inaccuracies and irrelevancies. You dispelled them. You didn't need to watch the video to dismantle it, because you can write better points without doing that. You defeated the clickbait video, its author, and us all. You win the thread.

giphy.gif

 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,024
UK
This is your brain on not watching the video:

Why are people discussing Gaas when that shitty could be made for every multiplayer dlc ever?

Max Payne 3 DLC maps are unusable now, is that fraud?

What kind of leap do you have to do to say something so stupid?

This is your brain on watching the video:

I see his point. If games-as-a-service is really a service, then there must be a point at which the service is fulfilled. With normal services this can be a function of time (a one-hour guitar lesson, a month of internet) or state (your lawn has been mowed, your car has been washed). If your time was cut short or the job was left undone, then you have a right to complain. But with games-as-a-service, it's totally different; there are no comparable terms. Instead, you are "served" until the seller decides not to serve you anymore. I don't know of any service that works like this. Anything you buy access to, the first question is "For how long?" So I would agree with the guy in the video: games-as-a-service are simply not services. They're goods. And if they're goods, you can't have sellers revoking access to them.
 

Assenzio

Alt account
Banned
Mar 18, 2019
775
I see his point. If games-as-a-service is really a service, then there must be a point at which the service is fulfilled. With normal services this can be a function of time (a one-hour guitar lesson, a month of internet) or state (your lawn has been mowed, your car has been washed). If your time was cut short or the job was left undone, then you have a right to complain. But with games-as-a-service, it's totally different; there are no comparable terms. Instead, you are "served" until the seller decides not to serve you anymore. I don't know of any service that works like this. Anything you buy access to, the first question is "For how long?" So I would agree with the guy in the video: games-as-a-service are simply not services. They're goods. And if they're goods, you can't have sellers revoking access to them.
Game as a service is terminology used by us.

No publisher ever said we are going to give you a service for ever. Every GaaS until now goes with year by year plan
 

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,403
Athens, Greece
The point is not of the support on a game to be endless but for the publisher to provide the means necessary for the complete product to be available to anyone that paid for it after is commercial life is done.

And it is a valid one and well constructed as will anyone will find out if they watch the video.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
Why are people taking Assenzio seriously at all here? He doesn't just not understand what he's talking about, he's actively refusing to watch the video that will enable his understanding. It's as blatantly intellectually dishonest as you can get. There's no point in reasoning with such a person because they are actively working to make reasoning not apply.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
This thread should split into two:
• People who watched the video and want to discuss service games
• People who haven't watched the video (or less than 5mins) and want to discuss service games

The dumbass excuse responses are all debunked in the video itself, so let them argue.
 

HiredN00bs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
826
Laurel, MD
He made that point in the first 4 minutes I watched and is dumb as hell.

He is basically discussing semantics of a terminology invented by the public to reflect the publisher.
He takes a significant portion of time to define what he thinks games as a service are. If the game requires an external source to fundamentally function, then it is a game as a service. Once he defines it so explicitly, the remainder of time is spent arguing why those who purchase this software, if there is sufficient interest to preserve or continue using a game after the publisher ends their support, ought to have basic assistance from the publisher to restore basic functionality. Basically, the minimum requirement would be something like the publisher issuing "repair instructions"--guidance that the consumers cannot be reasonably expected to do on their own (i.e., crack encryptions or rewrite server software from scratch).

The video is worth watching because he makes compelling and nuanced points, including addressing counterarguments. Think of watching the video like reading an essay. People keep coming into the thread to crticize an essay they didn't completely read and that's counterproductive.
 
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Assenzio

Alt account
Banned
Mar 18, 2019
775
User Banned (3 Days): Arguing in bad faith over a series of posts
He takes a significant portion of time to define what he thinks games as a service are. If the game requires an external source to fundamentally function, then it is a game as a service. Once he defines it so explicitly, the remainder of time is spent arguing why those who purchase this software, if there is sufficient interest to preserve or continue using a game after the publisher ends their support, ought to have basic assistance from the publisher to restore basic functionality. Basically, the minimum requirement would be something like the publisher issuing "repair instructions", guidance that the consumers cannot be reasonably expected to do on their own (i.e. crack encryptions or rewrite server software from scratch).

The video is worth watching because he makes compelling and nuanced points, including addressing counterarguments. Think of watching the video like reading an essay. People keep coming into the thread to crticize an essay they didn't completely read and that's counterproductive.
So he gave his own personal GaaS definition which is by all extent the most general I have seen and then discusses it? A bit weird. Nobody here would call Unrea; Tournament 2004 a GaaS.

But with the same definition wouldn't be almost every single game published this generation a GaaS? Almost every released single player and multiplayer had a big d1 patch that made the game from better to flat out playable.

Again words matter, you can't give your own definition of GaaS and that discuss it like you want.

If this is not the case please tell me and I will watch the video, if not this is useless. It's like discussing racism by giving a complete wrong definition of racism at the start

The point is not of the support on a game to be endless but for the publisher to provide the means necessary for the complete product to be available to anyone that paid for it after is commercial life is done.

And it is a valid one and well constructed as will anyone will find out if they watch the video.
Why are people taking Assenzio seriously at all here? He doesn't just not understand what he's talking about, he's actively refusing to watch the video that will enable his understanding. It's as blatantly intellectually dishonest as you can get. There's no point in reasoning with such a person because they are actively working to make reasoning not apply.
I don't need a video of a nobody to discuss anything, particularly if the conversation is tabled by him in that fashion.

This is a forum, we can discuss any idea. GaaS is not invented by the guy in the OP is an ongoing conversion in the community and I am free to quote every single one of you and carry on the discussion.

Either you have such a law esteem of yourselves that you think the only way to discuss something is watching somebody else's opinion or you don't think you are good enough to articulate a response that goes in accord with the one of OP.

If you agree with him you are supposed to convince other people or talk about this in the future, are you so incapable to do so that you will post this video as response?

Yes I haven't even watched the video and it comes out that not only the title is clickbait and that he uses shitty sources to prove his point, but that he also gave an entire debate side based on his own personal definition of a world.
 

Deleted member 10551

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,031
I have a stricter definition for game as a service than most, it seems. And I don't understand why so many games are considered Gaas now.

To me, Gaas are games that, due to the way they are designed, can only work as long as a server is running. For example, an MMO, or an exclusively online game that has to constantly communicate with the server to generate missions. It requires people actually manning it to continue running. This is a service.

Games like Horizon, the Witcher 3, etc, that receive continued support through DLCs, are not services. They are goods that you can own forever. Their additional content are additional goods you can purchase. The fact that developpers continue to create more content doesn't suddenly turn a goods into a service.

But what do I know.

My definition is twofold: It includes that, and it has to be a game that relies on some sort of addictive mechanic to keep folks playing. Most of the games that do a server do this though. I can't think of any game that meets your first definition that doesn't do the second, but it's not a requirement.

I'd definitely count SFV as a GaaS game. MKXI I would also. KI and Tekken wouldn't be. KI's a bit closer to GaaS, but I'd argue no because I don't think there's anything you "have" to play daily for.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
I'll say again that there is no legal wrong doing.

I am absolutely, 100% positive that companies have teams of lawyers looking over everything they do, all the time, whereas this video, and this topic, has - best I can tell - zero lawyers. I am absolutely, 100% positive that any and all complaints that get brought up would get shot down by any actual lawyer who has read the EULA and is aware of current fraud laws and how those two would interact.

Criminalization of some vague business model concept is not going to come from a YouTube channel. If it was some kind of precise, nailed down term; or a novel concept; or done by exclusively niche players no one has paid attention to/don't have teams of lawyers, then *maybe* something would be afoot, but since none of that is the case, you can't seriously think that he has a leg to stand on here from a legal perspective.

You are so naive and ignorant.

He laid down a legal framework and if I was ever serious about this I would avoid suing (to get reasonable access to a game I care about) within the 9th Circuit.

What he laid out is nicely researched. Does he need to be a top selling author in the NY Times list for you to take this preliminary research seriously?
 
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Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
This thread should split into two:
• People who watched the video and want to discuss service games
• People who haven't watched the video (or less than 5mins) and want to discuss service games

The dumbass excuse responses are all debunked in the video itself, so let them argue.
I disagree that we should let them argue. The latter are muddying the discussion with willful ignorance of the topic and it's detracting from any insight we might get. This topic is complicated enough without them putting up disingenuous and ignorant arguments to make it more confusing. It's the basic definition of bad faith acting and they shouldn't be entitled to a place in the debate any more than climate change deniers or flat earthers. They're not seriously trying to make any points, they're just heckling those who are.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
6,960
I disagree that we should let them argue. The latter are muddying the discussion with willful ignorance of the topic and it's detracting from any insight we might get. It's the basic definition of bad faith acting and they shouldn't be entitled to a place in the debate any more than climate change deniers or flat earthers. They're not seriously trying to make any points, they're just heckling those who are.

That is the plan, we quarantine them in their thread discussing the video without actually watching it, while the fruitful discussion happens in the one where people did watch the video.

As far as the topic goes, I think some kind of labeling (similar to lootboxes in Opencritic) might discourage publishers from abandoning the games without the endgame plan. A label of "limited ownership" or "eventual shutdown" next to reviews might lower the perceived value for the buyers. If the publisher does not want the label, they have to explain what will happen to the game when they no longer host servers.
 

Arion

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,807
This a a fantastic video. I hope he is successful in his endeavour to bring this to court. I don't want the preservation of art/history to be dependent on the whims of corporations.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
That is the plan, we quarantine them in their thread discussing the video without actually watching it, while the fruitful discussion happens in the one where people did watch the video.
Here's a better idea: just report them for being bad faith actors, which is an actual rule within the ToS, and don't deal with their bullshit.

Like, if your saying that a discussion topic on the legality of GaaS should be made that isn't necessarily about the Accursed Farm's video, then sure, that's fine if a little pointless, because that just means the people who make their arguments will have to find different sources that aren't the stuff Ross put together. I don't see why as Ross' sources seem both solid and extensive, but sure, you could have a topic where they find that stuff independently if you really wanted to.

But what kind of logic justifies a thread about a video that permits not watching said video but allows commentary on said video? What is the value of someone making statements on a topic that they are willfully ignorant towards? All it will do is propogate misinformation, which is a bad thing in general, but it's egregiously bad here where the topic is as complicated as it is. It seems to be that it'd be better to just not allow that.
 
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HiredN00bs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
826
Laurel, MD
I think a more descriptive title for his video might have been, "Why Games We Label GaaS Are Often Not Services, but Goods, and What Needs to Change". He doesn't actually think most games we attribute the GaaS label to are actually services conceptually (and perhaps are not legally, either). The point of him coming up with an internal defintion of GaaS is to identify the set of games he is arguing need better standards of support.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
I think a more descriptive title for his video might have been, "Why Games We Label GaaS Are Often Not Services, but Goods, and What Needs to Change". He doesn't actually think most games we attribute the GaaS label to are actually services conceptually (and perhaps are not legally, either). The point of him coming up with an internal defintion of GaaS is to identify the set of games he is arguing need better standards of support.
Any title without the word fraud is just being deliberately obtuse. You could argue about what is being identified as the vehicle for fraud but you can't exclude that word.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
I think a more descriptive title for his video might have been, "Why Games We Label GaaS Are Often Not Services, but Goods, and What Needs to Change". He doesn't actually think most games we attribute the GaaS label to are actually services conceptually (and perhaps are not legally, either). The point of him coming up with an internal defintion of GaaS is to identify the set of games he is arguing need better standards of support.
Any title without the word fraud is just being deliberately obtuse. You could argue about what is being identified as the vehicle for fraud but you can't exclude that word.

Yeah. Look, the reason we have the concept of clickbait titles is because people like to say extreme things as a way of artificially generating interest by exaggerating the topic being discussed. However, not all extreme titles are clickbait because sometimes the situation actually is extreme.

The video isn't titled "GaaS is fraud" because it's trying to push people's buttons, it's because it's making a well reasoned argument with significant supporting evidence that the practice companies employ is actually fraudulent in the legal definition of the term.
 

Deleted member 1656

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,474
So-Cal
Yeah. Look, the reason we have the concept of clickbait titles is because people like to say extreme things as a way of artificially generating interest by exaggerating the topic being discussed. However, not all extreme titles are clickbait because sometimes the situation actually is extreme.

The video isn't titled "GaaS is fraud" because it's trying to push people's buttons, it's because it's making a well reasoned argument with significant supporting evidence that the practice companies employ is actually fraudulent in the legal definition of the term.
Even if it the title is clickbait-ey (which I might somewhat agree it isn't since he's deadass serious about it) I think it's justified like I said on the last page because the core issue the video is about is in such dire straits.

While Ross has a dedicated following that would garner significant views regardless of what he puts out, I feel it's safe to say the video would be gaining a lot less traction with a title like "Why Games We Label GaaS Are Often Not Services, but Goods, and What Needs to Change." You could shorten that to something like "Games aren't Services but Goods" but that still wouldn't be getting as many hits and it'd be obfuscating if not misrepresenting Ross' case to some extent. This kind of brutal opening presentation is the kind of thing that's going to turn certain people off, but it seems to be working for the most part as intended. There are some that aren't going to be won over.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
37,160
I watched this because of the recommendation in Jim's video. I really liked it a lot, it does a good job of breaking things down and seems transparent.
 

freakybj

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,428
I don't agree with his definition of GaaS. If GaaS means that the publisher is providing you the "service" of allowing you to play their game then all games digitally sold can be called GaaS as well. You're just paying for a license to play a game which can be revoked by the dev/pub at any time. I'm only 10 min in, but he's losing me with the definitions which I assume form the foundation of the argument as to why GaaS is fraud.

I'm going in with the opinion that no - GaaS isn't fraud. It's just a shitty deal that dumb consumers are willing to pay for.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
I don't agree with his definition of GaaS. If GaaS means that the publisher is providing you the "service" of allowing you to play their game then all games digitally sold can be called GaaS as well. You're just paying for a license to play a game which can be revoked by the dev/pub at any time. I'm only 10 min in, but he's losing me with the definitions which I assume form the foundation of the argument as to why GaaS is fraud.

I'm going in with the opinion that no - GaaS isn't fraud. It's just a shitty deal that dumb consumers are willing to pay for.

I checked where the ten minutes marker is, and that's about the time he gets done establishing what GaaS are not, rather than what they are. He does this largely as a prologue to get at the spectific type of game that he is talking about, and then gives a short GaaS, but the real meat of why you own the GaaS you buy are everything that comes after.

Look, if you want to disagree with his findings, that's fine, but then you have to answer a few questions:

1. If Games as a Service are a service, why are they justified in not satisfying all the other definitions of service that we use in all other industries?

2. Why is there legal precedent in all sorts of other software court cases came down to you owning it as a good, even though (because digital software is an intangible) that means you only actually have a licence to own it. In those cases, the license is perpetual, meaning once you buy it, it's yours. In other words, to have a perpetual licence for a thing is to effectively own that thing, or atleast one instance of it.

3. What justifies programmed obsolescence? The real issue that Ross is getting at is that with the way it's designed, the destruction of your property is something that's an inevitable choice the seller makes. Again, in other industries, if the seller destroys the property they sold to you, that's a crime. Why are you okay with them destroying your games? (Also, please make sure to watch to the end of the video, because he wrote in pre-emptive counterarguments to several potential objections)
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,065
Another great video from Ross. I love how absolutely thorough he is with this. Every base is covered.

Games as an expressive medium will hopefully keep growing, but as an industry, it is headed towards a dark age due to corporate greed. Whether that tanks the industry, and eventually launches a new renaissance of indie devs, or it becomes wildly successful is up in the air. I don't want to end up in an all streaming future where you own nothing.
 

freakybj

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,428
1. If Games as a Service are a service, why are they justified in not satisfying all the other definitions of service that we use in all other industries?

GaaS is a service because developers continue to support the game after the initial sale or free download (often for years). Every new patch and new piece of content released for a GaaS meets the 2nd criteria of a service (i.e. a general expectation of when the service is completed). Because the service is ongoing the consumer is not clear exactly when the service is completed, but they are being served. And often times they are being served for free if they haven't paid for any microtransactions.

2. Why is there legal precedent in all sorts of other software court cases came down to you owning it as a good, even though (because digital software is an intangible) that means you only actually have a licence to own it. In those cases, the license is perpetual, meaning once you buy it, it's yours. In other words, to have a perpetual licence for a thing is to effectively own that thing, or atleast one instance of it.

He even says this isn't proven, so it's sketchy for him to claim that because the Supreme Court hasn't ruled on it yet you own the digital goods your purchase.
If this was true, wouldn't cheaters in Fortnite, PUBG, etc. have a legal argument to sue Epic and Bluehole for them being banned from the game after they bought it?

3. What justifies programmed obsolescence? The real issue that Ross is getting at is that with the way it's designed, the destruction of your property is something that's an inevitable choice the seller makes. Again, in other industries, if the seller destroys the property they sold to you, that's a crime. Why are you okay with them destroying your games? (Also, please make sure to watch to the end of the video, because he wrote in pre-emptive counterarguments to several potential objections)
It's completely OK and his concern for game preservation is paranoia. If people still want to play and the pub/dev is still making money then their service will continue. By the time the service ends and the servers shut down the community has left the game and moved onto something else after spending hundreds if not thousands of hours playing that game. He even says that not all games needs to be saved and definitely not all GaaS games need to be saved either.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
GaaS is a service because developers continue to support the game after the initial sale or free download (often for years). Every new patch and new piece of content released for a GaaS meets the 2nd criteria of a service (i.e. a general expectation of when the service is completed). Because the service is ongoing the consumer is not clear exactly when the service is completed, but they are being served. And often times they are being served for free if they haven't paid for any microtransactions.
Which all three parts fails to satisfy all 3 of the conditions he set forth in the conceptual portion of the video in regards to how service in literally every other industry is termed. Remember, he isn't arguing that games as a service do not exist - World of Warcraft is one example that perpetually keeps coming up that satisfies the definition of service.

Remember, he's arguing that "GaaS" are only called services, but are actually being sold as goods (that's what makes it fraud in his eyes), and then those goods are being destroyed when the company feels like it. He has no problem with games that actually are services and are treated accordingly, like World of Warcraft.

He even says this isn't proven, so it's sketchy for him to claim that because the Supreme Court hasn't ruled on it yet you own the digital goods your purchase.
If this was true, wouldn't cheaters in Fortnite, PUBG, etc. have a legal argument to sue Epic and Bluehole for them being banned from the game after they bought it?

No, but there is nevertheless significant legal precedent on it, not just in america's courts, but around the world. It is significant that the supreme court hasn't ruled on it yet, but that doesn't make the preceding legal declarations irrelevant. If anything, all that says is that the issue is becoming more significant if these things are goods, but companies are infringing upon customer rights, so higher courts in the US should make a ruling on it. But as far as I can tell, the higher courts of other countries have ruled in favor of consumers here.

As for your question, that's a good point and I'm not sure what the exact answer would be here, but my guess would be no. To draw an example he used in the video, a forest perservation offers you the service of allowing you to go into the preservation for a fee. However, if you go into the forest preservation and decide to try and start a fire, you cannot claim that it's your right to stay in the preservation because you paid the fee and it likely wouldn't be refunded to you either, since you were abusing the property. So you can have your right to service revoked if you act inappropriately. That logic would likely carry over into the digital environment of fortnite (if fortnite was a service, rather than a good).

It's completely OK and his concern for game preservation is paranoia. If people still want to play and the pub/dev is still making money then their service will continue. By the time the service ends and the servers shut down the community has left the game and moved onto something else after spending hundreds if not thousands of hours playing that game. He even says that not all games needs to be saved and definitely not all GaaS games need to be saved either.

Well, first off, jsut to be clear, he made those exceptions because he wants to cover his basis in terms of it being a favorable legal argument. He is in favor of saving most games, if not all of them, but he is willing to compromise in order to set standards on how future games should be saved, even if those standards are minimal. And he has infact played games he has seen die, and witnessed the turmoil of fandoms who had to watch their favorite games die. The only case he said he is alright with games dying is 1. if nothing in them was sold as a good and 2. if they are just so bereft of any artistry that there is legitimately nothing lost with them.

However, your favoring the interpretation that the games in question are the services they say they are, and the premise of the video is the contention of that. If they are goods, then that argument is moot: the company that renders the game unplayable is destroying your property, even though preserving the game in question is almost effortless on their part while totally unrealistic for a consumer to be expected to repair it. And even in the case of actual service games, that still applies to a lesser extent. Ultimately, this is an issue of destruction of art, or atleast products that are artistic, and there is an argument to be made htat even games that truly are services should have end-of-life plans that keep them functional.


And to just top all this off, and this is another point he addresses, even if we were to agree that, for whatever reason, all these exceptions should be made and developers are legally allowed to just destroy games as they want, this only broaches the bigger issue: Why the fuck should they be? Games are unique creative experiences that countless people work to bring to life and serve an artistic good and the effort that would have to go into preserving them is minimal and basically there is no downside to it while there is signfiicant downside to killing them. What argument is there that this is a good thing?

In theory, laws are made because enough people agree that something is good and should be mandatory or bad and should not be allowed. That's their function in society. Obviously, that's not how it always pans out in practice for various reasons, but on a conceptual level, laws are made so that society does good things. If this all is legal, then I would argue everything presented in the video is still a strong case for why it SHOULD be illegal.
 
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Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
Despite the way he narrowed gaas in such a way that excludes games we may normally think of as gaas, it still blankets many of those games because the problem is fundamental.

Is your game playable but just barely or in a pointless state? Like an online only shooter with no server to connect to? That would not technically fall under his insanely low expectation, but you should see its not that different.
 
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Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
Despite the way he narrowed gaas in such a way that excludes games we may normally think of as gaas, it still blankets many of those games because the problem is fundamental.

Is your game playable but just barely or in a pointless state. Like an online only shooter with no server to connect to. So that would not technically fall under his insanely low expectation, but you should see its not that different.

He did a video on his other channel that kind of exemplified the issue for me in a very concrete way. Overwatch is a very special game to me because it's the only MP I've ever invested a significant amount of hours into and I love it very deeply. However, it came out at a time where a number of hero shooters came out and it kind of killed the competition. One of those games was Lawbreakers.



Now, Lawbreakers failed for more reasons than just overwatch's exsitance and I didn't even play it myself since I already had OW and didn't need another hero shooter, so it didn't affect me. But it did have it's own dedicated following that did enjoy the game for what it was, and in this video, it goes into how creating a patch for the game to work on private servers should be doable. The game wouldn't reach the epic heights of it's competitors and it obviously wouldn't run as well and there is no more support for patches and the like, but the people who paid for the game and the people who like the game could still play it. There's no reason it can't be done, people have been doing it, as he mentions, since the 1990's.


As an argument, the video posted in the OP is far better at explaining the intricacies of the issue, but this one is the one that sold me on the idea. Eventually, what happened to Lawbreakers fans will happen to you and me. Statistically speaking, you'll eventually like a game that may not be as popular as the other games in it's genre, and it will be financially muscled out of the competition. I'm not gonna want that game to suffer Lawbreaker's fate. And I'd rather have that game be saved.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
I don't think he understands the fact that most devs don't actually want to shut down their games, they do it mostly because they have no other choice. It's really not planned obsolescence. People don't make games and plan to shut them down in five years or so, they shut it down because they don't have the money to run it anymore and sometimes don't see the financial point of doing so.
I dont think it matters much if its intentional or not.
 

freakybj

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,428
He did a video on his other channel that kind of exemplified the issue for me in a very concrete way. Overwatch is a very special game to me because it's the only MP I've ever invested a significant amount of hours into and I love it very deeply. However, it came out at a time where a number of hero shooters came out and it kind of killed the competition. One of those games was Lawbreakers.



Now, Lawbreakers failed for more reasons than just overwatch's exsitance and I didn't even play it myself since I already had OW and didn't need another hero shooter, so it didn't affect me. But it did have it's own dedicated following that did enjoy the game for what it was, and in this video, it goes into how creating a patch for the game to work on private servers should be doable. The game wouldn't reach the epic heights of it's competitors and it obviously wouldn't run as well and there is no more support for patches and the like, but the people who paid for the game and the people who like the game could still play it. There's no reason it can't be done, people have been doing it, as he mentions, since the 1990's.


As an argument, the video posted in the OP is far better at explaining the intricacies of the issue, but this one is the one that sold me on the idea. Eventually, what happened to Lawbreakers fans will happen to you and me. Statistically speaking, you'll eventually like a game that may not be as popular as the other games in it's genre, and it will be financially muscled out of the competition. I'm not gonna want that game to suffer Lawbreaker's fate. And I'd rather have that game be saved.


I do agree with that premise. If you pay for a game, developers should ensure that there's a way for it to still work once support has ended. Although, speaking for myself personally, I don't really care about game preservation because there's always something new and better to be played.

However, he shouldn't have titled the video GaaS is fraud. Fraud involves outright lying and deception, and people paying for GaaS know what they're getting into once they purchase a game. Not all GaaS games are bad. It's awesome that games like CounterStrike, Rocket League, and PUBG can be still supported years after release because those online multiplayer games are super-fun to play. But I do think GaaS is being abused by publishers - hamfisting the GaaS model into every intellectual property to milk as much money from consumers while producing fewer games.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
Fraud involves outright lying and deception, and people paying for GaaS know what they're getting into once they purchase a game.
This is not necessarily true and he goes over that in the video as well. As he pointed out, Games can have varied livespans from 2 weeks to 29 years. And in fact, Fallout 76 itself said in it's marketing that it will be playable forever, which we know is false. Plus, I think the general assumption that people have is that if they purchase a game, then they can play it forever, as that's how most games have worked and I believe it's how most people see things. I think the indifference comes more from that most people don't play older or less popular games, so it doesn't affect them as much, but generally speaking, if people purchase a game, they expect it to work whenever they want to play it. But that's not an argument for it's legality, it's just a matter of the fact that they're illegally screwing over a fewer number of people.

But more importantly, to make the claim that game companies aren't lying, then you have to explain why they are calling them a service when they are actually a good. Again, this is the entire premise of the video, which he thoroughly argues using not just legal precedent but also conceptual logic. If they are not lying, then why is it that the game's industry's service is so radically different in nature in comparison to literally every other industry? If they are a service, then why is the majority of the legal precedent regarding software ruling them as goods?

If you want to debunk his arguments, you have to actually address all the arguments he brought up. Not just say "people know what it is", when even THAT is unsubstantiated.
 

Razorrin

Member
Nov 7, 2017
5,236
the HELP Menu.
I don't think he understands the fact that most devs don't actually want to shut down their games, they do it mostly because they have no other choice. It's really not planned obsolescence. People don't make games and plan to shut them down in five years or so, they shut it down because they don't have the money to run it anymore and sometimes don't see the financial point of doing so.

Watch a little longer, he knows that. There are different reasons devs shut down service for a game that requires it to be playable. The major point is, It's Inevitable, and Publishers/Devs need to account for this with an End-Of-Service plan, so that the User can still play after service is done, or they just end up permanently breaking the User's product.

And Legally, Sellers are commuting fraud when they sell you a Good, and then permanently revoke access to that good when it's no longer profitable for them.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,876
It's pretty daunting to fight for the ownership of games that can just be shut down. I spent more than I would like to admit on Marvel Heroes and that game is just gone and with it all my purchases. I would rather focus my ire on GaaS games that suck, whether it's do to trash content or predatory monetization.

The ownership of some of these games and the ability to be able to play them forever seems unrealistic at this point. Making a mockery of those that use the term live service as a defense for mtx, when in the end the game gets barely any content, is the fight to have imo. Great video though.
 

freakybj

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,428
This is not necessarily true and he goes over that in the video as well. As he pointed out, Games can have varied livespans from 2 weeks to 29 years. And in fact, Fallout 76 itself said in it's marketing that it will be playable forever, which we know is false. Plus, I think the general assumption that people have is that if they purchase a game, then they can play it forever, as that's how most games have worked and I believe it's how most people see things. I think the indifference comes more from that most people don't play older or less popular games, so it doesn't affect them as much, but generally speaking, if people purchase a game, they expect it to work whenever they want to play it. But that's not an argument for it's legality, it's just a matter of the fact that they're illegally screwing over a fewer number of people.

But more importantly, to make the claim that game companies aren't lying, then you have to explain why they are calling them a service when they are actually a good. Again, this is the entire premise of the video, which he thoroughly argues using not just legal precedent but also conceptual logic. If they are not lying, then why is it that the game's industry's service is so radically different in nature in comparison to literally every other industry? If they are a service, then why is the majority of the legal precedent regarding software ruling them as goods?

If you want to debunk his arguments, you have to actually address all the arguments he brought up. Not just say "people know what it is", when even THAT is unsubstantiated.
People "know what it is" since the terms are spelled out in the EULA. It's as simple as if you don't like those terms, then don't buy the product. You can't really call GaaS a good since what you're buying isn't the final product. You're buying something with the hopes that developers will continue to update it and release new content, which would make it a service. There's no fraud or deception there. If there was you'd have seen a lawsuit on this a long-ass time ago.
 

Azoor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
682
Kuwait
Watch a little longer, he knows that. There are different reasons devs shut down service for a game that requires it to be playable. The major point is, It's Inevitable, and Publishers/Devs need to account for this with an End-Of-Service plan, so that the User can still play after service is done, or they just end up permanently breaking the User's product.

And Legally, Sellers are commuting fraud when they sell you a Good, and then permanently revoke access to that good when it's no longer profitable for them.

I was talking about intent which is a huge factor in determining whether or not it's planned obsolescence.
 

Razorrin

Member
Nov 7, 2017
5,236
the HELP Menu.
I was talking about intent which is a huge factor in determining whether or not it's planned obsolescence.

It good we're talking about this, since this is an important legal distinction made in the video.

Planned obsolescence is difficult to prove in court, but what isn't is Programmed Obsolescence.

With programmed obsolescence, intent is irrelevant. If you create a product that becomes useless because it's Designed to do that, regardless of whether or not you intended to do that, there is legal consequence for not providing a method to allow that product to eventually become usable.

With video games specifically, if you make a game that HAS to be online to be usable, and it becomes completely unplayable when the central server it has to connect to shuts down, that's Programmed Obsolescence.

And due to how companies use complex encryption for these server connections, if some method of proxy server or offline functionality isn't provided, it becomes practically impossible for the user to create one on their own without a masters in code breaking, with several examples of specialist code breakers taking Years to decrypt these connections for public use.

That means it's a legal issue for the company that they sold people a Good with a "Perpetual" licence, then locked away the "Perpetual" part in a way that's practically unfixable without action on their part. Companies are not publicly beholden to provide a fix, but can be legally prosecuted for refusing to do so, in many places in the world.

So in summery, intent is irrelevant in this context, when the design of the product breaks it in a way that is unfixable by the recipient it's sold to.
 

cyrribrae

Chicken Chaser
Member
Jan 21, 2019
12,723
Interesting. The iPhone is a good, certainly. But certainly the update mechanism is a service is it not? iOS is not a static good (it's also not individually sold, but I don't think that changes it being a good), but it is a commidity that is distributed but then altered and improved over time, until it is replaced by the next version. Can you use an iPhone or an old iOS version past support? Sure. But you can't download those older updates through Apple's service. Is this somehow a problem or illegal? Not at all.

The fact that part of your good relies on ongoing online service does not fundamentally make the good less valuable. And, it in no way promises that either the good or the service will remain unchanged or permanently available unless otherwise noted. The same way you don't expect an ice cream cone to persist forever, nor the chocolate you poured over it to improve it after you got it at first.

That said, I haven't watched the video and there's only so much I can glean from reading comments XD. Is it actually worth watching all the way through or is this more of an extended thought exercise?
 

Razorrin

Member
Nov 7, 2017
5,236
the HELP Menu.
That said, I haven't watched the video and there's only so much I can glean from reading comments XD. Is it actually worth watching all the way through or is this more of an extended thought exercise?

It's entertaining at least, and quite well researched, so I'd say give it a shot, in shifts if time's a premium.

The main thing to understand, is that this guy's motivation is to , and I quote, "Stop Companies From Killing Games!"

Read the thread mark if you want the quick note, but games that have a service attached, but are playable offline are exempt from the conversation, despite being refered to as GaaS by most industry marketing, and in turn most gamers.

Your game can be provided a service that can be shut down later, and still be playable without that being strictly illegal. But when a game that can ONLY be played while service is active, and then rendered unplayable after service is discontinued, that's when it becomes a problem.

Think the difference between Call if Duty and Overwatch, one of them can still be played even without support, in some cases losing no functionality or at least having online functionality be repaired in some way.

When Overwatch stops being profitable, and it dies, without Blizzard providing an End-Of-Service plan that provides people a way to still play it after service has concluded, that becomes a problem. A problem that has been historically difficult for the user to solve without company foresight or action.

And that problem is what this video sets out to define. So check it out if you're interested!
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,886
Columbia, SC
Clickbait title aside, im about 30 minutes in and I've yet to take issue with anything he says so far. Not having a plan for online only games after they decide to shut the servers down still seems scummy to me.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Interesting. The iPhone is a good, certainly. But certainly the update mechanism is a service is it not? iOS is not a static good (it's also not individually sold, but I don't think that changes it being a good), but it is a commidity that is distributed but then altered and improved over time, until it is replaced by the next version. Can you use an iPhone or an old iOS version past support? Sure. But you can't download those older updates through Apple's service. Is this somehow a problem or illegal? Not at all.

The fact that part of your good relies on ongoing online service does not fundamentally make the good less valuable. And, it in no way promises that either the good or the service will remain unchanged or permanently available unless otherwise noted. The same way you don't expect an ice cream cone to persist forever, nor the chocolate you poured over it to improve it after you got it at first.

That said, I haven't watched the video and there's only so much I can glean from reading comments XD. Is it actually worth watching all the way through or is this more of an extended thought exercise?
You can stop watching once he starts his counter argument section which is around 25 minutes into the video.
 

aevanhoe

Slayer of the Eternal Voidslurper
Member
Aug 28, 2018
7,328
I can't watch the video at this moment, but the topic is interesting to me. So, a question for people who don't like GaaS: are you against the model entirely or just against the current way publishers are implementing it?
 

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
I honestly think that people that didn't watch the video yet argue against it or dismiss it out of pettiness should, at least, receive a warning. I've seen people defending publishers plenty of times on this forum but at least those defenses are based on the actual criticism. There are quite a few replies on this thread from people who didn't bother watching the video or getting past the first minutes of it.

If you don't have the patience to watch the, admittedly, long video yet make the same types of arguments that the video clearly debunks I think that does not contribute to good discussions and just derails the thread.

As for the video itself, I'm not familiar with the definition of products and goods in my own country, let alone others but the examples he made and the precedents he mentioned make sense on a broad perspective, but have not yet been challenged or met on a very specific one.

When Modern Warfare 2 came out players made a lot of noise about the lack of dedicated servers for the game, meaning that its lifespan would, by design, be finite unlike the first Modern Warfare. Now here we are in 2019, not only fully embracing GaaS but defending a publisher's ability to render the products we buy with hard-earned money, worthless. I do enjoy some GaaS titles despite of, but not because of, their business model, but in the case of a lot of them I feel that the only thing keeping them as GaaS and limiting their lifespan is an arbitrary publisher decision to artificially inflate the game length through multiplayer gameplay and grinding for unlockables and to end support whenever it is convenient to them, regardless of a player's wishes.

I can tolerate that in the cases of games that are F2P or have proven to have very long-lasting support (like Diablo 2) but I find it a terrible practice for full-priced AAA titles. There is no reason why a game like Destiny couldn't work with a P2P lobby system. TF2 has had dedicated servers for over a decade yet it still allows players to unlock items on third-party servers. You don't need a publisher controlled central server for GaaS to work. The only reason they don't want you to have that is because when they decide to drop support for their game, they want all of their old players to buy the new game.

It is one of the most egregious anti-consumer measures yet people defend it with blind devotion for no reason other than their love for some game that share that business model, so let me make this clear:

NO ONE IS SAYING YOUR GAAS GAME IS BAD. SOME GAAS GAMES ARE GREAT. EXCELLENT EVEN!

What we are saying is simply that there is no excuse, in most GaaS games, for us to depend on a centralized server to be able to play the game at all. Every GaaS title should be able to run, even if with limitations, if the central server goes offline. It should not operate as if it has an unknown expiry date and simply die completely at that point. That is bad for the preservation of the game as a form of art. That is terrible for any and all consumers that enjoyed the game. That is terrible for any consumers who bought the game and have now seen it rendered to nothing more than a splashscreen with an error message.

In my opinion, it should clearly be illegal, and this video makes one of the best cases I've ever seen for that to be the case.
 

khamakazee

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,937
This video felt like games as a service.

What it all boils down to is ownership and why historians and game collectors balk at games as service because you essentially are just renting the game. The whole point to me of videogames is the enjoyment they provide. That is where the value is. To a game collector they want something that is tangible they can look at, hold, lend, sell, borrow and all the other things physical content can provide.

All there needs to be is full disclosure from the outset so this so called 'fraud' as he puts it is not in question. You know games like Destiny will eventually end because they will not host the servers forever. It relies on the developer (Bungie) to constantly keep the game running. That is why he says we have no control, they do.

There seems to be this constant division on the forums about single player games and GaaS. I don't see an issue why developers cannot keep making both. There is demand for both and just because some don't like having no control or a lack of ownership doesn't mean it's illegal or a fraud.
 

Deleted member 1656

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,474
So-Cal
I can't watch the video at this moment, but the topic is interesting to me. So, a question for people who don't like GaaS: are you against the model entirely or just against the current way publishers are implementing it?
This is the main problem summarized in a graph from the video:

wvf4Y0N.jpg


To put it nicely, I don't care for the lengths some games are monetized nor how centered their design can be on retention, but "killing games" or games preservation and ownership are the more pressing issues right now by far. I'm not against "GaaS" inherently.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
People "know what it is" since the terms are spelled out in the EULA. It's as simple as if you don't like those terms, then don't buy the product. You can't really call GaaS a good since what you're buying isn't the final product. You're buying something with the hopes that developers will continue to update it and release new content, which would make it a service. There's no fraud or deception there. If there was you'd have seen a lawsuit on this a long-ass time ago.
Sorry, but no, that doesn't work either.

First, lets get the obvious paradox out of the way: You say that the EULA sets out hte nature of the product so you can choose whether you want to buy the product? Okay. So, remind me, at what point is the EULA presented to the player? Before the purchase is made? No. At the time of purchase? Nope. It's made AFTER money has already changed hands. It's given at the start up of the game you already bought. So, that's a catch 22 of legal fuckery that itself should be subject to some legal oversight.

Second, even if that didn't apply, that still doesn't change anything. If you guy says "Here, let me sell you this box of gold", and you buy the box of gold and then he immediately hands you a box of poo and a contract saying "This contract establishes that this isn't a box of actual gold" before running off, you still have a strong case to say the seller was fraudulent. Fraud is a marketing issue, and I know for a fact that there have been cases where the contract was rendered null and void if the marketing for a product had been misleading enough, contract or not. Because conmen and fraudulent practioners have specifically exploited the hard-law nature of contracts long enough that new laws have been made to counteract that kind of practice. So, the fact that game companies are selling their games on the premise and marketing of "Games as a Service" could very well outweight that they go "btw, not actually a service, no takebacks" in the fine print.

(Edit: Also, "Developers will continue to update it and release new content, which would make it a service"? No, it doesn't. When you buy Anthem, your not paying for developers to update the game, your paying for the game, the ability to play it. That developers then use the money they get to put in more work into updating the game might be something they do, but it's not not whats on the reciept of your purchase. Again, if your approaching this from a good faith perspective, PLEASE actually watch the video and see the actual definitions being used, because just because a developer is servicing a game, that doesn't actually make it what you are directly paying for)

Lastly, the bolded is kind of the problem. Your argument comes down to "If this was a crime, why hasn't it been prosecuted yet", and the answer is simple: The world isn't that justice oriented. The same way lootboxes are gambling that is skirting around legal loopholes because the law hasn't caught up to it, this by all accounts seems to be a fraud that the law simply hasn't caught up on yet because it's a fairly new scheme. However, the law is STARTING to catch up to lootboxes, like how Belgium made them illegal last year. These things take time, and the entire point of the project or whatever Accursed Farms is doing so make progress on this specific case. It's just wrongful thinking to say that there must be no fraud, or else someone would have sued, when barely anyone even knows the technicalities that would qualify GaaS as fraud in the first place.

Because I think this debate clearly showed that there is enough here to atleast warrant examination. If this isn't fraud, then it being brought to court still seems like the best thing for it, since it would allow lawmakers to work out inconsistencies and establish clear rules why games are able to do all these unique things in their business practices that the other industries can't.
 
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