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icecold1983

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
4,243
PS5 is a 400/500$ console. I dont see how this is even debatable. Consoles are guaranteed to sell at their MSRP whenever they come in stock. Prices dont skyrocket at every whim like they do for PC components. This might be one of the worst PCMR videos Ive ever seen.
 

Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,875
Asia
GDDR is VRAM, the kind a GPU uses, while DDR is DRAM, the sticks you click into your motherboard. IDK what DRAM the PS5 uses, if any, but all Ampere cards use GDDR6 VRAM or better (not that it actually matters that much).

The PS5 uses a single pool of GDDR6 as both general purpose RAM and VRAM. So bandwidth is shared (between OS, game, and GPU) although generally the GPU uses most of it. FWIW There is nothing special about VRAM that it can't act as general purpose memory; it's simply oriented towards mass bandwidth. XSX does the same thing (with some quirks at the bandwidth level). It's extremely common for consoles to use shared pools as it simplifies both cost and memory management.

Compare this to, say, the RTX 3080, which has "only" 10GB of RAM, but it's GDDR6X (even higher bandwidth) and it's dedicated to GPU processing. (At this time GDDR6X is only available through Micron and can be considerably more expensive, which is one reason why it was never really an option for consoles)
 

DreamSurf

Banned
May 27, 2018
1,715
You could probably trim off $150 from this build (3060 Ti should be $400, don't really need extra case fans, and the price of the motherboard shouldn't really be that close the the CPU, probably another $150 off once the 3050 Ti is announced), but the point does still stand. This console gen has really good price-perf for gaming, and that's before considering scarcity in the market.

As somebody who has gotten multiple Ampere GPUs, PS5s, and a Zen 3 processor, this is most certainly not true. The PS5 is insanely hard to get unless you get lucky in a Direct queue, and the DE may as well not exist.

GDDR is VRAM, the kind a GPU uses, while DDR is DRAM, the sticks you click into your motherboard. IDK what DRAM the PS5 uses, if any, but all Ampere cards use GDDR6 VRAM or better (not that it actually matters that much).
So theres no difference between GDDR 4 and 6? Why are they distinguishing ps5 ram as GDDR 6, pretty misleading. The pc build has GDDR 4 listed why not call it that?
 

icecold1983

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
4,243
So theres no difference between GDDR 4 and 6? Why are they distinguishing ps5 ram as GDDR 6, pretty misleading. The pc build has GDDR 4 listed why not call it that?
For all intents and purposes DDR and GDDR are the same. GDDR just offers an increasing amt of bandwidth as the number associated with it gets higher. PCs dont use shared memory and CPUs dont need nearly as much bandwidth as GPUs. It makes sense to use cheaper/slower memory for the CPU.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,026
1) I dunno if these will ever stop. We've been seeing them since the PS360 era lightly, but way more heavily around the PS4/XBO launch, then again at PS4Pro, then AGAIN at XBOX and now with the PS5 (but strangely not XSX?). It's honestly annoying at this point. Thank goodness it's just around system launches and refreshes.

2) It's not a "$500 PC" build, as they only talked about the CPU and GPU (unless I missed it). They gave zero specs for the other components such as amount of RAM, motherboard used or the storage, and these are not nonzero factors when considering building a PC, even with leftover parts. Other videos in the past have at least gone as low as they could to bargain basement the prices on parts from ebay and crap to justify them hitting the price equivalence, but this reeks of agenda/fanboyism/PCMR.

I mean, I'm a relatively recent watcher of GN's videos and they're usually informative or worth discussing, but this one... ehhhhhhhh. His closing statements were kind a middle finger to console gamers, for sure, since what's in the PS5 (and XSX) isn't exactly a low tier PC from 5 years ago...


This time around the price:performance is such that this kind of video doesn't make sense. But - how about a more positive forward-looking video talking about the benefits of the consoles being stronger? Pushing SSD means MS hopefully now improving SSD performance on PC, decent CPUs means a likely overall increase in baseline CPU requirements and hopefully better multithreading support on PC versions of games so you can get more benefit from your expensive 8/12/16 core CPUs. GPUs with RT will make RT more commonplace, along with potentially interesting ways to leverage the limited performance on console - so lower end cards like 2060/3050 etc will gain benefits. Or simply that your expensive shiny new PC won't simply be wasting its massive headroom on simply more frames/higher resolution but will be using it for better graphics, better simulation, richer worlds etc.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,086
PS5 is a 400/500$ console. I dont see how this is even debatable. Consoles are guaranteed to sell at their MSRP whenever they come in stock. Prices dont skyrocket at every whim like they do for PC components. This might be one of the worst PCMR videos Ive ever seen.
Lol what? PC components sell for MSRP. Scalping is not the same as selling in stock.
The PS5 uses a single pool of GDDR6 as both general purpose RAM and VRAM. So bandwidth is shared (between OS, game, and GPU) although generally the GPU uses most of it. FWIW There is nothing special about VRAM that it can't act as general purpose memory; it's simply oriented towards mass bandwidth. XSX does the same thing (with some quirks at the bandwidth level). It's extremely common for consoles to use shared pools as it simplifies both cost and memory management.

Compare this to, say, the RTX 3080, which has "only" 10GB of RAM, but it's GDDR6X (even higher bandwidth) and it's dedicated to GPU processing. (At this time GDDR6X is only available through Micron and can be considerably more expensive, which is one reason why it was never really an option for consoles)
Thank you for the explanation. I guess it's a matter of pricing then? Or is the latency question different? I ask because I thought the price of VRAM is what makes GDDR not suitable for use as DRAM, but with a sub-$350 GPU expected to launch with 12GB of GDDR6, I have to question why it wouldn't just be used as general RAM in your average system.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,805
Australia
So theres no difference between GDDR 4 and 6? Why are they distinguishing ps5 ram as GDDR 6, pretty misleading. The pc build has GDDR 4 listed why not call it that?

What? The PC build uses DDR4 on the mobo for system RAM and GDDR6 in the graphics card as VRAM. GDDR4 is an ancient standard that was basically never used. PS5 uses GDDR6 in a single pool for both.
 

JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
10,371
PS5 is a 400/500$ console. I dont see how this is even debatable. Consoles are guaranteed to sell at their MSRP whenever they come in stock. Prices dont skyrocket at every whim like they do for PC components. This might be one of the worst PCMR videos Ive ever seen.
You got as much chance at getting a PS5 for $400 as i do a 3080 for $699. As in, Zero.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,951
Would a comparison based around viewing distance and visual acuity have been a better idea? This chart comes to mind:

viewing-distance-tv-monitor-hd-4k-2a9cf0725816d6c7-800x450.png


And the calculator on their site gives out the following visual acuity distances (beyond which you likely cannot discern between individual pixels):

24" 1080p monitor: 96cm
55" 4k TV: 114cm
65" 4k TV: 131cm

Perhaps if the majority of pc players with 1080p monitors are playing at a similar distance, the perceived image quality isn't appreciably worse when playing at 1080p on that monitor compared to 4k on a much larger TV due to viewing distance?

The viewing distance vs screen size chart?
That is only probably true if the resolution of the source image is the same on all the resolutions/sizes, which isn't the same as running a game at 1080p vs running a game at 4K (then sit back until you hit the 1080p visual acuity at a certain distance).

I think the chart only makes sense if you are running games on all the resolution/sizes with the same internal rendering resolution (then downsample/upsample from a particular resolution), but not when you have the game running internal rendering resolution at the display resolution (on their respective screens) on the charts.
 
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OP
OP
PlayerOne

PlayerOne

Member
Apr 16, 2018
1,699
You got as much chance at getting a PS5 for $400 as i do a 3080 for $699. As in, Zero.
Thats not true, i just snagged a PS5 for 500$ and had an option for DE for 400$ and when they are listed they are always msrp, in comparison every single retailer list all 30 series gpu for like 50% more than msrp so its literally impossible to buy at a normal price at least in my country.
 

Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,875
Asia
[QUOTE="The Turbanator, post: 55778473, member: 1101"Thank you for the explanation. I guess it's a matter of pricing then? Or is the latency question different? I ask because I thought the price of VRAM is what makes GDDR not suitable for use as DRAM, but with a sub-$350 GPU expected to launch with 12GB of GDDR6, I have to question why it wouldn't just be used as general RAM in your average system.[/QUOTE]

Single-pool is rarely used in PC architectures because the performance penalty (yes, latency) is huge communicating from main memory to the GPU. On consoles this problem is mitigated because the parts (motherboard, RAM, CPU, GPU) are all on the same board, and usually the CPU/GPU are merged into an APU, closely surrounded on all sides by the RAM modules. The literal length of the traces matters here, compared to a PC where the GPU would have to make a transfer over the PCI express bus and just basically travel way, way farther.

An example of single-pool still used is Intel integrated graphics on laptops, where they typically reserve some main memory. These GPUs are...extremely slow.

As to why GDDR is not used as system memory? Simply because the bandwidth doesn't add anything to general computational use. Traditional DDR is cheaper but still provides tons of bandwith for CPU operations, and it doesn't have to always share that bandwidth directly with the GPU. This saves motherboards from having to be designed with more signal lines (DDR4: 64bit, GDDR6X 3080: 320bits), which would crowd out a lot of the space on the average ATX motherboard and possibly require RAM to be placed closer to the CPU (causing problems for heatsink designs).
 

Jimrpg

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,280
This video is getting destroyed by the like/dislike ratio. less than 90% now.

And Gamers Nexus has a pretty high standard of what they should be hitting.

 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,812
But why they testing the games on PC at 1080p when the same games on PS5 runs at much higher resolution — most of them nearly at 4K. What's the point of this video?
After actually watching the video I had to ask - did you watch it? He compare the games in their "performance" modes which means that they do actually run close to 1080p on the PS5 most of the time - sometimes even below that. So the comparison seems valid.
 

BeI

Member
Dec 9, 2017
5,966
The viewing distance vs screen size chart?
That is only probably true if the resolution of the source image is the same on all the resolutions/sizes, which isn't the same as running a game at 1080p vs running a game at 4K (then sit back until you hit the 1080p visual acuity at a certain distance).

I think the chart only makes sense if you are running games on all the resolution/sizes with the same internal rendering resolution (then downsample/upsample from a particular resolution), but not when you have the game running internal rendering resolution at the display resolution (on their respective screens) on the charts.

Regardless, since a monitor is a lot smaller than a TV, even gaming at a lower resolution might be perceived as not being much different in clarity at the normal pc gaming distance compared to a 4k TV at native resolution. Or so it makes it seem.
 

Optmst

Member
Apr 9, 2020
471
After actually watching the video I had to ask - did you watch it? He compare the games in their "performance" modes which means that they do actually run close to 1080p on the PS5 most of the time - sometimes even below that. So the comparison seems valid.
A game for example runs on dynamic 4K and can "sometimes" drops to 1080p on 3090 should be compared to 1080p on 1060 according to you, cause all that matters is "performance"
You're not making any sense
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,632
This video is getting destroyed by the like/dislike ratio. less than 90% now.

And Gamers Nexus has a pretty high standard of what they should be hitting.
The youtube comment section is absolute cancer if you sort it with newest first. Watch this video get weaponized by r/pcmr for any future discussions regarding consoles.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,951
Regardless, since a monitor is a lot smaller than a TV, even gaming at a lower resolution might be perceived as not being much different in clarity at the normal pc gaming distance compared to a 4k TV at native resolution. Or so it makes it seem.

But it is just not the same with games (I think) when the internal rendering resolutions are different, especially when you have different effects (like depth of field) dependent on the resolution.

Example
- Run RDR2 at 1080p rendering resolution on a 1080p display screen without HUD (look at some landscape with building in the open world)
- Then run RDR2 at 4K rendering resolution on a 4K display screen without HUD
- Sit at the distance as per the chart to reach that visual acuity where 1080p supposedly looks the same as 4K using that chart distance value without going a complete blur
- Does the game look the same?
 
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Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,131
Somehow I was able to get a ps5 for myself and one for my brother but I've never been able to get a 3080 and it's been out longer. To me 3080 seems far more scarce
Probably, I'd imagine not only is it more scarce it's also the places they sell it. Have very little bot protection. Often they're sold out before they even go up it seems like.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,118
Chile
I just watched it and even if i am a PC only gamer with rtx 3070 i have to say that it makes no sense, he is saying that a Ps5 is equal to a pc with gtx 1060 6gb and low end Ryzen...and to prove that he uses only 3 last gen games with their 120fps patches, is he for real? Try to run AC Valhalla with PS5 settings on that PC or even Cod, Horizon Zero Dawn, Watch Dog Legion etc...It's true that PS5 can't compete with a rtx 3070 or Ryzen 3600 but not that it's equal to a 1060 or that you can get the same PS5 experience with that PC

He is not saying that the PS5 is equal to a 1060. He says that for DMC specifically, to target 120fps at similar settings, trying to be around $500 MSRP, a 1060 should do it. But it can't do it for Borderlands 3 or Dirt 5, for which you'd need a 1070Ti or 1080Ti even.

The video is not really as bad as many make it out to be. I think their biggest mistake is going the "Vs" route, which is silly for many, many different reasons. The commentary of the video itself it's really not bad, gives an idea of how hard/easy would it be to have similar performance for not much MSRP budget, how it varies depending on the game, how $500 for a gaming PC is really low budget, but has value because of its versatility, while a Console for that price is, actually, a lot of value for gaming specially since you don't need a PC for gaming, nor should anyone gatekeep and say that you do.
 

Tanston

Member
Nov 29, 2017
336
I've got a 1070 and a PS5 and i'm for sure picking the PS5 whenever possible at this point it's just better performance all around.
 

Rick44-4

Member
Oct 8, 2020
1,318
He is not saying that the PS5 is equal to a 1060. He says that for DMC specifically, to target 120fps at similar settings, trying to be around $500 MSRP, a 1060 should do it. But it can't do it for Borderlands 3 or Dirt 5, for which you'd need a 1070Ti or 1080Ti even.

The video is not really as bad as many make it out to be. I think their biggest mistake is going the "Vs" route, which is silly for many, many different reasons. The commentary of the video itself it's really not bad, gives an idea of how hard/easy would it be to have similar performance for not much MSRP budget, how it varies depending on the game, how $500 for a gaming PC is really low budget, but has value because of its versatility, while a Console for that price is, actually, a lot of value for gaming specially since you don't need a PC for gaming, nor should anyone gatekeep and say that you do.
I think him making the conclusion that the ps5 is like a mid range pc from 5 years ago kind of makes him look suspect, as well as the original title of the video lol.
 

Serious Sam

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,354
I've got a 1070 and a PS5 and i'm for sure picking the PS5 whenever possible at this point it's just better performance all around.
I have a 1080Ti PC and I tested a lot of multiplatform games between the three systems (PC, PS5, XSX). In most games these consoles are either on par with my PC or surpassing it. This is why I made so many posts in this thread, because this video is so misleading and comes to some ridiculous conclusions.
 

Genio88

Banned
Jun 4, 2018
964
I think him making the conclusion that the ps5 is like a mid range pc from 5 years ago kind of makes him look suspect, as well as the original title of the video lol.
Indeed, at the end of the video he clearly compares the PS5 to a 6 years old PC, so he really thinks that the PS5 is equal to a gtx 1060, also if that wasn't the case the video would have no reason to exist.
 

Genio88

Banned
Jun 4, 2018
964
I have a 1080Ti PC and I tested a lot of multiplatform games between the three systems (PC, PS5, XSX). In most games these consoles are either on par with my PC or surpassing it. This is why I made so many posts in this thread, because this video is so misleading and comes to some ridiculous conclusions.
Yes it is a pretty bad video, maybe he's still recovering from that Nvidia things, if you want a PC comparable to a PS5 you can't go lower than a RTX 2060 Super and Ryzen 3600
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,086
Nope. Those cards were sold at their MSRP like 2 or 3 days ago. Different AIBs are over NVIDIA's MSRP, sure, but that's no different from the DE and regular PS5 having different MSRPs, because they are different models.

Now though, Trump's China tariffs are hitting pricing on GPUs and that's why you see prices $200 over what they used to be. This is a completely unique situation that hasn't happened before. The Zotac 3060 Ti Twin Edge sold for $420 before, now it's $530. That's not normal, and certainly not comparable to what was being described before.
LOL another one, where is this magical country you hail from buddy?
The United States? Though I didn't really realize pricing is much worse in other countries where retailers do just add their own margin to the GPUs because why not. That's not right.


Specs don't matter, dude!

Did you read the tweet? He's talking about performance, not cores or clock numbers. He's saying that specifically in DMCV at the settings provided, a 1060 is sufficient. Is that a dumb standard? Yes. Is that him saying specs are never important? No, not really.
 

Pheace

Member
Aug 23, 2018
1,339
I know it's not directly relevant to the comparison of the game but between both hardware's you do have to keep in mind the PC can play many more games than the PS5 can, including an increasing proportion of PS games, almost all Xbox games and the PC library itself which probably dwarfs both. I personally think paying more for a PC is worth it just for that alone, let alone being able to actually config your experience (Motion Blur begone and adjusting FOV for instance).
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,118
Chile
I think him making the conclusion that the ps5 is like a mid range pc from 5 years ago kind of makes him look suspect, as well as the original title of the video lol.

"Performs like a mid to high end PC from 5 years ago, unless you factor in Ray Tracing which obviously that PC can't do, and you would need at least a 2060" is what he says. And it isn't that wrong really? Without Ray Tracing in other games, the performance is closer to a 2080 right? Which is like a 1080Ti, which is factored in the video and a high end card from almost 5 years ago. I'd even say that it's not wrong when talking about this type of games because, in terms of GPU power, some of them would've been done in something like the Xbox One X if it wasn't for the CPU bottleneck and similar problems of those systems.

I do think that the video is flawed. There are other games that tell a different story, some better, some worse. In that sense, the comparison is silly and it's easy to misrepresent one or the other platform. Specially when you present it in a "versus" fashion.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,794
"Performs like a mid to high end PC from 5 years ago, unless you factor in Ray Tracing which obviously that PC can't do, and you would need at least a 2060" is what he says. And it isn't that wrong really? Without Ray Tracing in other games, the performance is closer to a 2080 right? Which is like a 1080Ti, which is factored in the video and a high end card from almost 5 years ago. I'd even say that it's not wrong when talking about this type of games because, in terms of GPU power, some of them would've been done in something like the Xbox One X if it wasn't for the CPU bottleneck and similar problems of those systems.

I do think that the video is flawed. There are other games that tell a different story, some better, some worse. In that sense, the comparison is silly and it's easy to misrepresent one or the other platform. Specially when you present it in a "versus" fashion.

Indeed. The main issues with the video were the original title and the very small sample of tested games. Other than that, it is true that rasterization performance hasn't increased all that much since the launch of the 10xx series of cards.
 

MrOblong

Member
Oct 27, 2017
264
I've just built a PC that is significantly more powerful than a PS5, albeit lacking a comparable SSD.

However doing so cost me a lot of money, whereas the PS5 is a god damn bargain for the hardware you get.

This is a bad video with a deeply compromised method- PC myopia is a real affliction. These new consoles are much more powerful, relative to their time, than the PS4 and Xbox One were in 2013.
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,196
Dark Space


Specs don't matter, dude!

Well then you probably shouldn't have cherry picked the games that fit the narrow view you wanted to display, and instead should have tested a comprehensive list of both games and PC builds that showed where the PS5 actually stands versus modern hardware.

Don't yell at people for not properly seeing the full picture when you purposely colored outside of the lines.
 

Serious Sam

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,354
I take it this won't age well...like at all.
This will age terribly, like what was he thinking by releasing this? Both consoles are already impressive with dynamic 4K 60FPS modes, and the best is yet to come: Horizon 2, Ratchet, Ragnarok, Noughty Dog's next game, Forza Horizon 5, Forza Motorsport 8, etc. etc.
 

icecold1983

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
4,243
Nope. Those cards were sold at their MSRP like 2 or 3 days ago. Different AIBs are over NVIDIA's MSRP, sure, but that's no different from the DE and regular PS5 having different MSRPs, because they are different models.

Now though, Trump's China tariffs are hitting pricing on GPUs and that's why you see prices $200 over what they used to be. This is a completely unique situation that hasn't happened before. The Zotac 3060 Ti Twin Edge sold for $420 before, now it's $530. That's not normal, and certainly not comparable to what was being described before.

The United States? Though I didn't really realize pricing is much worse in other countries where retailers do just add their own margin to the GPUs because why not. That's not right.
They have been higher for well over 2-3 days.
 

oneils

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,067
Ottawa Canada
I am so lost by this thread now. I'm not really sure how to interpret the video and people's reactions to it.

What I do find super interesting is that when ps4 pro and x1x released, a while back, there were a flood of videos from pc youtubers demonstrating how you can spec out similar builds for the same price using pc hardware.

But upon XSX and PS5 release, we really haven't seen the same videos. Its probably impossible to do. You likely need around $1,000 USD to get a comparable build.

What the GN video proves, I guess, is that depending on certain games you can spec out something for much cheaper. It doesn't really have much real world value though. I don't know a lot of people speccing out pc's just so they can get similar 1080p performance for DMC5.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,489
Cape Cod, MA
I am so lost by this thread now. I'm not really sure how to interpret the video and people's reactions to it.

What I do find super interesting is that when ps4 pro and x1x released, a while back, there were a flood of videos from pc youtubers demonstrating how you can spec out similar builds for the same price using pc hardware.

But upon XSX and PS5 release, we really haven't seen the same videos. Its probably impossible to do. You likely need around $1,000 USD to get a comparable build.

What the GN video proves, I guess, is that depending on certain games you can spec out something for much cheaper. It doesn't really have much real world value though. I don't know a lot of people speccing out pc's just so they can get similar 1080p performance for DMC5.
I don't know why they'd be doing it *now* either. When DMC5 came out almost two years ago. And even then, wooo you can play DMC5 on a $500 PC. Without the option for ray tracing that the PS5 version gives you. For $100 less.