Gamers Nexus 500$ PC vs PS5 comparison

Deleted member 2441 · Jan 7, 2021

daninthemix said:
Indeed - their defensiveness is matched only by that of the PS5 gaming community.

Not everyone criticising this video is some sort of tribal console warrior or believes in the PC master race. Can we not bring that us versus them shit into the thread or encourage it?

I'm primarily a high-end PC player who owns a PS5 for exclusives, AND supports GamersNexus through Patreon cos I like their work.

This video is buttcheeks. GamersNexus should do better.

Herman The Tosser · Jan 7, 2021

daninthemix said:
How am I supposed to know what's wrong with my post if you don't tell me? ESP?

You're pricing out a £450 2TB drive, buying a 1000W PSU which is ridiculous overkill, and budgeting £100 for fans. I think you can work it out.

Jonnax · Jan 7, 2021

Fularu said:
A PC BR drive is less than 40$ it's not a game changer

AMD CPUs can't play UHD Blu-ray's.
Only Intel CPUs support the DRM (SGX Extensions) at the moment on windows.
In addition you need an Intel GPU with your display connected through that.

You'll also need Cyberlink power DVD ultra which is $70 to play that blu ray.

Also UHD drives aren't $40? They're at least $130.
Unless for some reason you're comparing against the 50GB drive which has been in use since the PS3 to the 100GB per disc drive in the PS5.

That's also not to mention the PS5 coming with a 5.5GB/s 825GB SSD.

I've been playing Rainbow Six Seige which looks pretty good at some kind of dynamic 4k@120. An 10 series GPU can't output that to a TV over HDMI.

I've got a 1070 in my PC. It is ridiculous to compare that GPU to a PS5.

Serious Sam · Jan 7, 2021

RvinP said:
I am extremely surprised that people don't accept the real fact as others have mentioned in the thread that there are two sorts of comparisons for price / performance

If you already have a modest gaming PC from past few years, the cost of getting console equivalent performance isn't as exaggerated as people make it out to be and a good portion of people generally just quote the cost of everything you need to get as a point just to win the argument and don't consider how much it actually costs to upgrade for people like me (which is much lower).

But you don't have additional costs associated with getting additional components or hardware

Mostly requires a GPU upgrade to get around the same performance profile as the consoles

Else with the GPU, you may need a newer CPU, Motherboard, RAM to get near the CPU core/thread counts

If you don't already have a modest gaming PC, the cost of getting a new system and everything required for it quite large. Which is true and it may not seem like a good investment to get an expensive PC just to play the games which are as expensive as the console versions.
Note: I am mentioning the price of games on PC, because other regions in the world have regional prices and are much cheaper to buy games on PC than on the consoles (which are usually a direct USR or EUR conversion for console titles.)

This is funny. Reminds me of that article (forgot which publication) where author assumes that every home has a decent PC sitting somewhere in the closet and all they needed is a $500 GPU upgrade to play the latest AAA games.

bes.gen · Jan 7, 2021

RvinP said:
I am extremely surprised that people don't accept the real fact as others have mentioned in the thread that there are two sorts of comparisons for price / performance

If you already have a modest gaming PC from past few years, the cost of getting console equivalent performance isn't as exaggerated as people make it out to be and a good portion of people generally just quote the cost of everything you need to get as a point just to win the argument and don't consider how much it actually costs to upgrade for people like me (which is much lower).

But you don't have additional costs associated with getting additional components or hardware

Mostly requires a GPU upgrade to get around the same performance profile as the consoles

Else with the GPU, you may need a newer CPU, Motherboard, RAM to get near the CPU core/thread counts

If you don't already have a modest gaming PC, the cost of getting a new system and everything required for it quite large. Which is true and it may not seem like a good investment to get an expensive PC just to play the games which are as expensive as the console versions.

agree with point1, my idea was to get a 3070 for my already decent pc, and have a much better gamepass device than series x for same price.
but its impossible to find the damn thing, so ended up getting series x anyway.
though ended up loving it to be honest.
its difficult to beat convenience of consoles.
thats another factor in all this

CanisMajoris · Jan 7, 2021

He put a lot of effort in meaningless details and top level cherry-picking to come to a deceiving and biased conclusions. I thought this channel was supposed to be one of the good ones...
PS5 is equivalent to mid-end PC today.

Deleted member 62976 · Jan 7, 2021

plow · Jan 7, 2021

Wait, isn't a comparable Graphic card ( The RTX 2070 ) 800 Bucks alone?

Fularu · Jan 7, 2021

Jonnax said:
AMD CPUs can't play UHD Blu-ray's.
Only Intel CPUs support the DRM (SGX Extensions) at the moment on windows.
In addition you need an Intel GPU with your display connected through that.

You'll also need Cyberlink power DVD ultra which is $70 to play that blu ray.

Also UHD drives aren't $40? They're at least $130.
Unless for some reason you're comparing against the 50GB drive which has been in use since the PS3 to the 100GB per disc drive in the PS5.

That's also not to mention the PS5 coming with a 5.5GB/s 825GB SSD.

I've been playing Rainbow Six Seige which looks pretty good at some kind of dynamic 4k@120. An 10 series GPU can't output that to a TV over HDMI.

I've got a 1070 in my PC. It is ridiculous to compare that GPU to a PS5.

The contention point was lack of BR drive and it's a non issue in itself because those are cheap. That's about it.

I wouldn't recommend a 1060 PC nowadays so the video is rather meaningless, I'm not even sure you can still buy 1060s anyway

Jonnax · Jan 7, 2021

plow said:
Wait, isn't a comparable Graphic card ( The RTX 2070 ) 800 Bucks alone?

Ah you misunderstood! GamersNexus has proven that a PS5 is actually worse than a 1060. /S

Deleted member 20831 · Jan 7, 2021

Serious Sam said:
This is funny. Reminds me of that article (forgot which publication) where author assumes that every home has a decent PC sitting somewhere in the closet and all they needed is a $500 GPU upgrade to play the latest AAA games.

This is exactly what I am mentioning in that post (apologies for multiple edits on it), you may have skipped reading Point 2 where I mentioned it obviously doesn't make sense to get a completely new PC to get the same experience as a PS5 because it is going to be much more expensive to get the whole PC system setup.

kaputt · Jan 7, 2021

It certainly is a biased comparison. They should have tested way more games and more modes (4K for example), to give the viewers more information about the benefits and possible downsides about building PC vs buying a console.

In any case, I'm still surprised how well those three PC games ran at 120 FPS. Didn't think the Ryzen 3300x was so capable, looks like a nice budget CPU.

Radec · Jan 7, 2021

plow said:
Wait, isn't a comparable Graphic card ( The RTX 2070 ) 800 Bucks alone?

Not if you are GN lol

Darkstorne · Jan 7, 2021

I will never understand why GN make their videos 5x longer than they need to be...

Does this price include the cost of a monitor, mouse, keyboard, speakers, and OS? PC/console price comparisons that don't include those items really annoy me (and I say this as a PC gamer). The average consumer already has a TV, and a console purchase comes with a controller included, so they'd be all set. The average consumer does not have a desktop, but a laptop or tablet, and so the price of desktop parts alone (even if they were savvy enough to build said desktop themselves, which is another matter) is already an argument made in bad faith.

MJForum Poster · Jan 7, 2021

RvinP said:
I am extremely surprised that people don't accept the real fact as others have mentioned in the thread that there are two sorts of comparisons for price / performance

If you already have a modest gaming PC from past few years, the cost of getting console equivalent performance isn't as exaggerated as people make it out to be and a good portion of people generally just quote the cost of everything you need to get as a point just to win the argument and don't consider how much it actually costs to upgrade for people like me (which is much lower).

You don't have additional costs apart from below

Mostly requires a GPU upgrade to get around the same performance profile as the consoles

Else with the GPU, you may need a newer CPU, Motherboard, RAM to get near the CPU core/thread counts

If you don't already have a modest gaming PC, the cost of getting a new system and everything required for it quite large. Which is true and it may not seem like a good investment to get an expensive PC just to play the games which are as expensive as the console versions.

Note: I am mentioning the price of games on PC, because other regions in the world have regional prices and are much cheaper to buy games on PC than on the consoles (which are usually a direct USD or EUR conversion for console titles).

This is a great post about the reality of the situation.

Another wrinkle in all of this is that you can't even find more affordable GPUs right now. I just did a build for a friend to update his machine from 2013. I would've easily settled for a last-generation 2070 Super to pair with his new Ryzen, but I couldn't find one anywhere. Even Microcenter is sold out of anything that is not a Quadro card.

Poldino · Jan 7, 2021

Garbage comparison,as usual this channel is full of bias against console lol

bes.gen · Jan 7, 2021

Darkstorne said:
I will never understand why GN make their videos 5x longer than they need to be...

Does this price include the cost of a monitor, mouse, keyboard, speakers, and OS? PC/console price comparisons that don't include those items really annoy me (and I say this as a PC gamer). The average consumer already has a TV, and a console purchase comes with a controller included, so they'd be all set. The average consumer does not have a desktop, but a laptop or tablet, and so the price of desktop parts alone (even if they were savvy enough to build said desktop themselves, which is another matter) is already an argument made in bad faith.

in a fair build he would probably be left with $150 budget for cpu+gpu combined lol

DreamRunner · Jan 7, 2021

slamhk said:
Damm his conclusion at 32:41 is harsh when you look at the limited amount of games he tested.
"Equivalent to a mid to high end gaming pc from about 5 years ago, that's where this thing is"

Alright, fair enough those 120 fps did not look top tier on PS5 looking at his compairson, but that's just based on 3 games for one specific scenario (high framerate) .

Lol

Can't take him seriously anymore, tbh.

GhostofWar · Jan 7, 2021

plow said:
Wait, isn't a comparable Graphic card ( The RTX 2070 ) 800 Bucks alone?

It's discontinued so you probably can't buy a new one anymore anyway, so you would be looking at a 3060 ti currently which is supposed to be 400 usd rrp and beats a 2080 super.

Nvidia RTX 3060 Ti review: the Digital Foundry verdict

Digital Foundry review the Nvidia RTX 3060 Ti, the first (almost) mainstream Ampere GPU. Game benchmarks, power efficie…

www.eurogamer.net

If your looking for 2070 performance and a cheaper price your probably after a 3050 which nvidia will probably announce whenever their thing this month is.
This whole 500 dollar pc shit needs to die in a fire, along with using discontinued parts more expensive and slower than current parts. The videos shit, but you don't need to add to the fud with more fud.

Yeh yeh, they are out of stock, so are amd cards and cpus, ps5's and xsx's but they are not making anymore 2070's period.

Decarb · Jan 7, 2021

Jonnax said:
AMD CPUs can't play UHD Blu-ray's.
Only Intel CPUs support the DRM (SGX Extensions) at the moment on windows.
In addition you need an Intel GPU with your display connected through that.

You'll also need Cyberlink power DVD ultra which is $70 to play that blu ray.

Also UHD drives aren't $40? They're at least $130.
Unless for some reason you're comparing against the 50GB drive which has been in use since the PS3 to the 100GB per disc drive in the PS5.

That's also not to mention the PS5 coming with a 5.5GB/s 825GB SSD.

I've been playing Rainbow Six Seige which looks pretty good at some kind of dynamic 4k@120. An 10 series GPU can't output that to a TV over HDMI.

I've got a 1070 in my PC. It is ridiculous to compare that GPU to a PS5.

The UHD playback on PC is a huge investment. I don't expect PC centric channels to do honest apples to apples comparisons, but if they did they'd realise how deep the UHD movie rabbit hole goes on PC.

Titanpaul · Jan 7, 2021

why is this video 35 minutes

Doomguy Fieri · Jan 7, 2021

Wow, and when you factor in free online, Steam sales, and free games from EGS... bravo, PC Gaming.

Md Ray · Jan 7, 2021

thetoucan3 said:
The results are off because DMC 5 is running at a reconstructed 4K and not 1080p like this comparison implies as per Digital Foundry

Yeah, I just realized that. Now it makes a lot of sense. Still a flawed comparison by GN, IMO, they shouldn't even have included DMC 5 here.

sumo · Jan 7, 2021

The problem with the "if you already have a half decent pc just get a new GPU card" is that it's very often not the case. I upgrade my PC every 5 years or so and last time I needed a new CPU and RAM as well because the old ones were going to be a severe bottleneck, that meant needing a new motherboard too so by the time the upgrade is done I've got the old PSU, fans, and drives but it's mostly a brand new computer.

If you're building/buying your gaming PC for the first time and opt for a mid range GPU then the rest of the components will be priced to match. I can't think of a situation where a few years down the line going from say a 1060 to a 3080 won't give you the performance benefits you expect because you'll be limited by the existing mid range CPU, mobo, RAM etc.

signal · Jan 7, 2021

Was hoping higher prices for parts due to scarcity and tarrifs would halt these American 'build a console killer for $27!!!!!' pieces.

Alexandros · Jan 7, 2021

sumo said:
The problem with the "if you already have a half decent pc just get a new GPU card" is that it's very often not the case. I upgrade my PC every 5 years or so and last time I needed a new CPU and RAM as well because the old ones were going to be a severe bottleneck, that meant needing a new motherboard too so by the time the upgrade is done I've got the old PSU, fans, and drives but it's mostly a brand new computer.

If you're building/buying your gaming PC for the first time and opt for a mid range GPU then the rest of the components will be priced to match. I can't think of a situation where a few years down the line going from say a 1060 to a 3080 won't give you the performance benefits you expect because you'll be limited by the existing mid range CPU, mobo, RAM etc.

I don't quite understand, why wouldn't such an upgrade give you the benefits you expect?

Alexandros · Jan 7, 2021

Darkstorne said:
I will never understand why GN make their videos 5x longer than they need to be...

Does this price include the cost of a monitor, mouse, keyboard, speakers, and OS? PC/console price comparisons that don't include those items really annoy me (and I say this as a PC gamer). The average consumer already has a TV, and a console purchase comes with a controller included, so they'd be all set. The average consumer does not have a desktop, but a laptop or tablet, and so the price of desktop parts alone (even if they were savvy enough to build said desktop themselves, which is another matter) is already an argument made in bad faith.

How would you compare a console and a PC purely for the purpose of playing games?

edit: I apologize for the double post, I hit reply by mistake.

sumo · Jan 7, 2021

Alexandros said:
I don't quite understand, why wouldn't such an upgrade give you the benefits you expect?

Because putting graphics on a screen quickly isn't just the job of the GPU.

Alexandros · Jan 7, 2021

sumo said:
Because putting graphics on a screen quickly isn't just the job of the GPU.

Very true. How would that scenario be different though than a PS4-to-PS4 Pro upgrade?

Jimrpg · Jan 7, 2021

I have a small youtube channel and I actually thought about making a quick video with my thoughts on it, but then I decided it wouldn't really achieve much aside from trying to ride on GN's popularity and look like trying to get views. Anyway I thought it was a really weird video in general, I know GN has a PC bias, but the methodology in this was weird and the conclusion just felt like it didn't really ask why the results were the way they were. It was more like 'PS5 is a GTX 1060.'

First I had issues with the methodology because they tried to 'match hardware', which I don't mind them matching image quality and settings quality, but these were games that didn't really push the PS5. These were old games, and Dirt 5 wasn't exactly a graphical showcase. With this methodology you could say Minecraft runs great on a GTX 1060 too just like on a PS5. Then there were only 3 games tested. And then they said they were going to match performance, but one of the graphs had 130fps vs 110fps. Then they tried to match settings in Dirt 5 but Dirt 5 on PS5 had dynamic resolution. Then finally they said the PS5 is more like a 4 to 5 year old mid/high end PC. Um what? Like sure, if its phrased like 'PS5 120hz right now in these older games perform like a mid tier PC, Sony can you do something about it?', like that makes sense to me, but it was literally like 'It is what it is, these are the results, its like a GTX 1060'.

Also the fact that the channel usually averages a 99% like/dislike rating, and this video is rating around 90% shows that a lot of people think its a bad take.

For the record, I game on PC most, but am also a console gamer.

Titanpaul said:
why is this video 35 minutes

They make 30 minute videos.

Mr_Antimatter · Jan 7, 2021

They need to compare apples to apples. Meaning the pc must match the ps5 spec for spec as close as possible.

sumo · Jan 7, 2021

Alexandros said:
Very true. How would that scenario be different though than a PS4-to-PS4 Pro upgrade?

I'm not 100% on the differences but it looks like the Pro has an upgraded CPU and more RAM as well as the upgraded GPU. There could be updates to the components on the mobo too such as the northbridge to let the CPU talk to the RAM quicker.

PS4 Pro Vs PS4 Slim: What's The Difference?

PS4, PS4 Slim or PS4 Pro? Which Sony console is right for you?

www.forbes.com

"PS4 - CPU: 1.6GHz 8-core AMD Jaguar; 1.84 TFLOP AMD Radeon (18CU, 800MHz); 8GB GDDR5 RAM"
"PS4 Pro - CPU: 2.1GHz 8-core AMD Jaguar; GPU: 4.2 TFLOP AMD Radeon (36CU, 911MHz); 8GB GDDR5 + 1GB RAM"

zombiejames · Jan 7, 2021

plow said:
Wait, isn't a comparable Graphic card ( The RTX 2070 ) 800 Bucks alone?

But then this garbage video wouldn't exist.

Alexandros · Jan 7, 2021

sumo said:
I'm not 100% on the differences but it looks like the Pro has an upgraded CPU and more RAM as well as the upgraded GPU. There could be updates to the components on the mobo too such as the northbridge to let the CPU talk to the RAM quicker.

PS4 Pro Vs PS4 Slim: What's The Difference?

PS4, PS4 Slim or PS4 Pro? Which Sony console is right for you?

www.forbes.com

"PS4 - CPU: 1.6GHz 8-core AMD Jaguar; 1.84 TFLOP AMD Radeon (18CU, 800MHz); 8GB GDDR5 RAM"
"PS4 Pro - CPU: 2.1GHz 8-core AMD Jaguar; GPU: 4.2 TFLOP AMD Radeon (36CU, 911MHz); 8GB GDDR5 + 1GB RAM"

The reason I mentioned that type of upgrade was because it is a textbook example of a CPU-limited scenario. The tiny upgrade to the CPU clockspeed wasn't at all enough to let the upgraded GPU breathe, yet the benefits of the upgraded GPU were apparent in every GPU-limited scenario (which is by far the most common scenario when playing a game). A 1060-to-3080 upgrade on a midrange PC will provide a massive boost in such scenarios.

GhostofWar · Jan 7, 2021

sumo said:
Because putting graphics on a screen quickly isn't just the job of the GPU.

I ended up putting an rtx 3080 in my 5 year old i7 6700k with 16gb 3000mhz ddr4 because i couldn't get the rest of the parts for the full build yet (maybe sometime this year would be nice) and the uplift over the 1080ti it replaced was exactly like you would expect. Obviously im not dropping everything to low and playing at 1080p trying to cpu bind myself.

Lashley · Jan 7, 2021

7 pages of arguing in circles

pksu · Jan 7, 2021

Darkstorne said:
I will never understand why GN make their videos 5x longer than they need to be...

The same goes for most tech channels really. 20-30 min videos that could be condensed into a few paragraphs and graphs. I guess most people listen them in the background and YouTube algos prefer longer videos whatever

MrFox · Jan 7, 2021

I used to like their insights so I gave them the benefit of the doubt with the previous questionable methodology and unsupported conclusions, but it's like they're just catering to their audience now. I don't understand what happened to GN lately.

Japanmanx3 · Jan 7, 2021

YeahJeets said:
A 1060?

Legendary reaction.

The Real Napsta · Jan 7, 2021

I wonder why the video didn't compare the PC to the more powerful Series X.

LuigiMario · Jan 7, 2021

signal said:
Was hoping higher prices for parts due to scarcity and tarrifs would halt these American 'build a console killer for $27!!!!!' pieces.

we just got a stimulus, they're never going to stop the "build a $600 gaming rig today!" videos.

PC gaming YouTube is so obnoxious. Remember when they just harped on a bad Verge PC building guide video for like half a year? Fun times

sumo · Jan 7, 2021

GhostofWar said:
I ended up putting an rtx 3080 in my 5 year old i7 6700k with 16gb 3000mhz ddr4 because i couldn't get the rest of the parts for the full build yet (maybe sometime this year would be nice) and the uplift over the 1080ti it replaced was exactly like you would expect. Obviously im not dropping everything to low and playing at 1080p trying to cpu bind myself.

I'm not saying you wouldn't see an upgrade but your pc 5 years ago was pretty much top of the line, the 1080ti had an rrp of $700, the 6700k at $350 and DDR4 had just come out. I'd guess it cost near $2k to put together, those parts are going to have a longer usage life than mid range parts. It's a different story if you had 16gb of DDR3 and an i5 6500 like a lot of cheaper builds did back then.

Alexandros · Jan 7, 2021

LuigiMario said:
we just got a stimulus, they're never going to stop the "build a $600 gaming rig today!" videos.

PC gaming YouTube is so obnoxious. Remember when they just harped on a bad Verge PC building guide video for like half a year? Fun times

I don't think it is reasonable to extrapolate that kind of conclusion based on a single video of a single channel.

Cats_Schrodinger · Jan 7, 2021

GhostTrick said:
DE is just a terrible purchase. I'd rather pay 100€ more and get 60€ to 50€ games rather than paying 100€ less for 80€ games.

Can we stop this? Like, this myth has been going around forever. Somehow the world is uniform and you can get cheaper physical games everywhere.

In Hungary, the DE is the best choice there is. You save a ton of money and you get infinitely better deals on the PS Store because retailers here do not give a fuck. Games that are 2 years old regularly go here for much more than on the PS Store where they are regularly discounted well below the retail price.

signal · Jan 7, 2021

LuigiMario said:
we just got a stimulus, they're never going to stop the "build a $600 gaming rig today!" videos.

PC gaming YouTube is so obnoxious. Remember when they just harped on a bad Verge PC building guide video for like half a year? Fun times

Building a gaming rig for x is fine but the console killer* (USD only!!!!!) ones I've always hated lol

Mass Effect · Jan 7, 2021

I'm kinda surprised that they'd even go through with this video seriously. Even Linus is like "nah, you can't build a comparable PC at console prices."

Darkstorne said:
I will never understand why GN make their videos 5x longer than they need to be...

It's not really a GN thing, but more of a Youtube thing in general. It has to do with the algorithm.

Cats_Schrodinger · Jan 7, 2021

Alexandros said:
I don't think it is reasonable to extrapolate that kind of conclusion based on a single video of a single channel.

Eh, it is true though. I didn't care for PCs but I started building one and watched an amazing amount of PC Gaming related YT channels. The only decent one I found that wasn't filled with edgy and completely unnecessary shots at consoles or Apple is Jays2Cents and Optimum, which is amazing.

PC Gaming channels often go after consoles or Apple to pander to their audiences. Even Jays non-RGB video got thousands of dislikes, it's sitting at around 50%. Because he made a PC with no RGBs as a joke. Jays and Optimum is the only channels I found who truly only care about PC Gaming and don't do this.

It's a huge turnoff for me. Especially because I have been using consoles for the past 18 years and also Apple stuff for the past 10. When they take these shots they are often wrong. And I mean really, really wrong. But then again they get up on the high horse about PCs and sprout bullshit about everything else when they are clearly clueless. Linus is probably the worst offender. Some of his takes on Apple are just so bad.

oneils · Jan 7, 2021

I watched the whole video last night. I'm a fan of the channel so I thought I'd give it a watch.

By the end of the video he did explain that comparing a pc to a console is flawed in and of itself, so it left me just scratching my head. I'm not sure what he was trying to show us. I didn't finish the video with any useful conclusion.

edit: maybe that some low cost pc's can match the "performance" mode of select games?

Jroc · Jan 7, 2021

My takeaway from this is that the PS5 CPU's low clockspeed is bottlenecking it in high framerate scenarios. No other explanation for why a 1060 would outperform it in games like DMC5 at 120hz.

Alexandros · Jan 7, 2021

Cats_Schrodinger said:
Eh, it is true though. I didn't care for PCs but I started building one and watched an amazing amount of PC Gaming related YT channels. The only decent one I found that wasn't filled with edgy and completely unnecessary shots at consoles or Apple is Jays2Cents and Optimum, which is amazing.

PC Gaming channels often go after consoles or Apple to pander to their audiences. Even Jays non-RGB video got thousands of dislikes, it's sitting at around 50%. Because he made a PC with no RGBs as a joke. Jays and Optimum is the only channels I found who truly only care about PC Gaming and don't do this.

It's a huge turnoff for me. Especially because I have been using consoles for the past 18 years and also Apple stuff for the past 10. When they take these shots they are often wrong. And I mean really, really wrong. But then again they get up on the high horse about PCs and sprout bullshit about everything else when they are clearly clueless. Linus is probably the worst offender. Some of his takes on Apple are just so bad.

That hasn't been my experience at all. I think that most hardware channels are quite professional in their coverage and provide well reasoned arguments. I don't think that the occasional harmless dig is enough to paint them with such a board brush.

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