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Deleted member 36086

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 13, 2017
897
Because you're not making any sense. A game having a 1% of its optional content sold as DLC doesn't make it an incomplete game. I'm not getting an inferior experience because I'm missing on some fucking skins. That's just the kind of dumb hyperbole the thread talks about. Not every game is Battlefront 2.

Microtransactions suck but it's all about the implementation. If you believe they suck by principle then that's on you, but don't act like everyone is being nickled and dimed over some optional stuff that you don't need. Because you don't.

There are tons of products that if you want to spend more money, you will get a better experience. TVs, cell phones, hell even CPUs have functional elements on the die that straight up get disabled so they can be sold at lower price points.

It's weird how gamers accept market segmentation for everything else but when it comes to games, they are getting an "incomplete" product lol.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,955
I'm not talking about any individual experience. I'm talking about all the content available for a game. Some games don't let you have all the content available for 60 dollars.

You're dialing back now.

You don't need that content to have the full experience, and you're being ridiculous trying to line these things up the way you are.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,007
There are tons of products that if you want to spend more money, you will get a better experience. TVs, cell phones, hell even CPUs have functional elements on the die that straight up get disabled so they can be sold at lower price points.

It's weird how gamers accept market segmentation for everything else but when it comes to games, they are getting an "incomplete" product lol.
Entitlement.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/gamer-outrage-culture.89414/page-7#post-16298466
 

Manu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,169
Buenos Aires, Argentina
There are tons of products that if you want to spend more money, you will get a better experience. TVs, cell phones, hell even CPUs have functional elements on the die that straight up get disabled so they can be sold at lower price points.

It's weird how gamers accept market segmentation for everything else but when it comes to games, they are getting an "incomplete" product lol.
I brought this up on one of the threads about microtransactions, using cable companies as an example. I was told the comparison didn't make sense for some reason.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,345
Having a sensible discussion about the pros and cons of Battlefield V's campaign has become impossible in most corners of the internet. I find this incredibly depressing. Imagine living in world where a discussion about Battlefield V's campaign was met with thoughtful critique about the mixture of linear and open sandbox-driven game design that calls to mind the likes of Project IGI, trying to keep both stealth and action as viable playstyles. Imagine being able to meaningfully discuss the writing in each War Story, how, much like classic WWII films such as The Great Escape and The Dirty Dozen, they use a real war paired with semi-fictional individuals to examine the human condition in the context of war. What did the game do right? How could the next game improve?

Nope. We live in the world where a few key factors completely derail discussion.

Some people refuse to play the game, and parrot the opinions of controversy seeking youtubers who always go for a "the writing is shit, the gameplay is shit, everything about the game is shit" angle. Mixed in with some "the developers attacked their audience" whining for good measure. Consider that in 2015, the exact same thing happened with Battlefield Hardline. There were even Breitbart articles claiming Hardline was a politically motivated piece of anti-conservative propaganda.

Some people do play the game, but they hate the genre. This is surprisingly common. With a series like Battlefield, most of the MP audience does not give a shit about story-driven singleplayer FPS games. Ever since Hardline, the series has responded to negativity towards BF3's absurd linearity by embracing sandbox level design. Allowing the player to solve problems using stealth if they wish to. They've dialed back cinematic spectacle in favor of player agency. This approach to design was what made the likes of Far Cry and Crysis popular back in the day. Player freedom. Player agency. It turns out some people HATE this type of design. They want the singleplayer to be like the multiplayer. Endless bombastic battles where you mindlessly shoot hundreds of enemies in a glorified MP tutorial. Instead of recognising that "it's not for me", they decide it's not for anyone. They resent its inclusion. The inability to recognise that not everything is aimed at you is a core fault in the mainstreaming gaming psyche. "I don't care about this thing, so why do developers include it? Why do they put so much effort into something I wish didn't exist?"

I mentioned Hardline. Lovely game. Visceral's swan song. It had a diverse cast, some sharp writing, and mechanically it paired linear gameplay with sandbox gameplay. You could complete huge sections of the game without killing anyone. The arresting mechanic was a bit overpowered, true, but it worked really well with the theme of the game. And the Battlefield fanbase flipped out. "This isn't what I want from a Battlefield game." They wanted mindless slaughter on battlefields, not a game where players were in the shoes of a Cuban American police officer trying to kill as few people as possible.

Another key problem is how many people know jack shit about game design. About how to craft a fun videogame. Once a game has a target painted on its back, people will run around claiming the AI is "shit". Happens every time. And their usual examples are nothing more than the game having competent stealth mechanics that allow players to complete missions without setting off an alarm every 30 seconds. Mafia III comes to mind. Game had a target on its back because it pissed off people who didn't believe a Mafia game should be about anything except Italians. M3's AI was pretty damn good. It flanked, took cover, worked in groups, and generally put up a stiff fight. But it was also designed to allow players to infiltrate buildings using cover mechanics and such. People spread gifs saying, "Oh, look at this idiotic AI that walks past the player as they're beside the wall." Of course it walks past the player. Otherwise the stealth wouldn't work. How else could you grab them from behind, knock them out, and drag them behind cover?

Notice how often EA pops up? It's depressing. Syndicate 2012 had really cool encounter design. It had smart AI. It had awesome gunplay, great music, incredible visual design (bloom excepted). Instead of being judged on its merits, all people would talk about was the dubstep in the trailer, how EA had ruined the original Syndicate (which they'd never played, BTW), and how the game was only six hours long and a massive ripoff by the greedy Electronic Arts. Its FEAR-inspired gameplay was dismssed as a "Call of Duty clone" for some vague reason.

Crysis 2 was released in 2011. It is an amazing game with some truly special encounter design. Incredibly tight gunplay. Amazing music. It's a smart FPS game. It did so much stuff incredibly well. But outside of professional reviews, you rarely heard about that back in the day. Instead, you heard Crysis 1 fans throwing a tantrum because the game was different. "This isn't what I wanted from a Crysis game." The evil EA had ruined Crysis with their greed. People who praised the game's design were just "shills" and "not real Crysis fans". The whole "PC Master Race" prejudice was taking root about this point. A hate for consoles, a hate for "casual" gamers, and that still-common denial about the realities of game development.

Before Crysis 2 was released, Crytek explained the decisions behind the game. The compromises, the creative choices, and so on. They explained that games were becoming very expensive to make, and making the game multiplatform was necessary. There was no way to recoup their money without consoles. They pointed to rising budgets. To PC piracy.

And instead of listening, gamers fell back on this blind rage that has become so common. Any developer that says "piracy is an issue for us" gets screamed at. I'm sorry, but piracy is an issue for developers making 6-12 hour long FPS games. Maybe it's less of an issue for developers making gigantic open world games. (Notice CDPR are always wheeled out in a defense.) Crytek explaining that games were becoming expensive to make and how their games were being hurt by piracy was met with, "Just make them cheaper." And paranoid accusations that anyone who brings up piracy is "attacking gamers". Plus the outrage over the developers "betraying" their fans -- a new familiar chorus.

There's this obsession with throwing a tantrum any time any developer or publisher says anything less than glowing about any part of their audience.

It's frustrating how unbelievably dense and obstinate and ignorant gamers can be. So willing to bandwagon. So willing to buy into conspiracy theories instead of trying to understand basic business logic. Millions of people will just parrot whatever a youtuber told them. I am getting a little tired of people parroting the claim that EA said singleplayer games are dying. They never said that. Yet it keeps popping up. It's all the more galling to me that the same people who spread the lie about EA claiming singleplayer games don't sell and using that to claim EA are "out of touch" are often the same people shitting on modern Battlefield campaigns that are way better than they get given credit. There's no nuance. There's no appreciation. Just people having their little tantrums and wallowing in their "worst game of 201X" lists. It's just endless hate, distortion, and people attempting to blackmail developers through weaponized outrage. And it just seems to be getting worse. We saw the first inklings of it around 2010. Lest we forget Dragon Age 2, which was also paired with people getting angry that professional critics held different opinions to them about a flawed game that to its credit has an almost Obsidian-esque charm. But now it is happening on an unprecedented scale. It's happening with increased frequency.

I'm tired of it. Gaming culture is horrible. It masks bitterness and small mindedness behind "passion". People genuinely care more about the name on the box than the contents of the box when evaluating a game. And they act as if their bitterness towards not getting what they expected is somehow justified because they were conditioned to be coddled, pandered to, and told how amazing they are all these years.
A+ Post
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
There are tons of products that if you want to spend more money, you will get a better experience. TVs, cell phones, hell even CPUs have functional elements on the die that straight up get disabled so they can be sold at lower price points.

It's weird how gamers accept market segmentation for everything else but when it comes to games, they are getting an "incomplete" product lol.

That's because video games aren't like consumer electronics.

It's like if you bought a novel but it turned out you had to get the more expensive version to read some chapters in the middle.

Prime example of Sheepinator posting in bad faith.

Notice how his quote edits out me saying if you're going to sell something make it something substantial like an expansion pack, and used Splatoon 2 as an example of a game doing this right.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,955

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
Another ridiculous comparison.

Point to a single game that makes you buy the middle chapters...

Assassin's Creed 2. There's a really obvious jump where it skips ahead and you have to buy those chapters to let you know what happened.

Also, the novel comparison wasn't literal. It's an analogy. For the game the "Missing chapters" might be some weapons, or a single side area, or a character.
 

MagicDoogies

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,047
While I agree that people upset over Battlefield V are total babies I don't think it's unreasonable to be disappointed or even angry over the stuff EA and Activision do on a regular basis. Is Jim Sterling included in this group? Because he's an outrage machine (and in my opinion rightfully so).

I'm sure he does count, but he's been running that schtick far longer than many of these chumps. On top of that most of his videos talk more about anti-consumer and predatory behaviors and how they RUIN games as opposed to complaining about the games themselves.
And honestly to be a bit fair OP you can't really lump in the Fallout 76 debacle as 'Gamer outrage'.
I'm sorry but the game is trash, runs like trash, plays like trash, and with the ever increasing congo line of fuck ups it' looks like Bethesda is TRYING to drum up a healthy queue of consumer lawsuits for fraud since the game has been released.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
Having a sensible discussion about the pros and cons of Battlefield V's campaign has become impossible in most corners of the internet. I find this incredibly depressing. Imagine living in world where a discussion about Battlefield V's campaign was met with thoughtful critique about the mixture of linear and open sandbox-driven game design that calls to mind the likes of Project IGI, trying to keep both stealth and action as viable playstyles. Imagine being able to meaningfully discuss the writing in each War Story, how, much like classic WWII films such as The Great Escape and The Dirty Dozen, they use a real war paired with semi-fictional individuals to examine the human condition in the context of war. What did the game do right? How could the next game improve?

Nope. We live in the world where a few key factors completely derail discussion.

Some people refuse to play the game, and parrot the opinions of controversy seeking youtubers who always go for a "the writing is shit, the gameplay is shit, everything about the game is shit" angle. Mixed in with some "the developers attacked their audience" whining for good measure. Consider that in 2015, the exact same thing happened with Battlefield Hardline. There were even Breitbart articles claiming Hardline was a politically motivated piece of anti-conservative propaganda.

Some people do play the game, but they hate the genre. This is surprisingly common. With a series like Battlefield, most of the MP audience does not give a shit about story-driven singleplayer FPS games. Ever since Hardline, the series has responded to negativity towards BF3's absurd linearity by embracing sandbox level design. Allowing the player to solve problems using stealth if they wish to. They've dialed back cinematic spectacle in favor of player agency. This approach to design was what made the likes of Far Cry and Crysis popular back in the day. Player freedom. Player agency. It turns out some people HATE this type of design. They want the singleplayer to be like the multiplayer. Endless bombastic battles where you mindlessly shoot hundreds of enemies in a glorified MP tutorial. Instead of recognising that "it's not for me", they decide it's not for anyone. They resent its inclusion. The inability to recognise that not everything is aimed at you is a core fault in the mainstreaming gaming psyche. "I don't care about this thing, so why do developers include it? Why do they put so much effort into something I wish didn't exist?"

I mentioned Hardline. Lovely game. Visceral's swan song. It had a diverse cast, some sharp writing, and mechanically it paired linear gameplay with sandbox gameplay. You could complete huge sections of the game without killing anyone. The arresting mechanic was a bit overpowered, true, but it worked really well with the theme of the game. And the Battlefield fanbase flipped out. "This isn't what I want from a Battlefield game." They wanted mindless slaughter on battlefields, not a game where players were in the shoes of a Cuban American police officer trying to kill as few people as possible.

Another key problem is how many people know jack shit about game design. About how to craft a fun videogame. Once a game has a target painted on its back, people will run around claiming the AI is "shit". Happens every time. And their usual examples are nothing more than the game having competent stealth mechanics that allow players to complete missions without setting off an alarm every 30 seconds. Mafia III comes to mind. Game had a target on its back because it pissed off people who didn't believe a Mafia game should be about anything except Italians. M3's AI was pretty damn good. It flanked, took cover, worked in groups, and generally put up a stiff fight. But it was also designed to allow players to infiltrate buildings using cover mechanics and such. People spread gifs saying, "Oh, look at this idiotic AI that walks past the player as they're beside the wall." Of course it walks past the player. Otherwise the stealth wouldn't work. How else could you grab them from behind, knock them out, and drag them behind cover?

Notice how often EA pops up? It's depressing. Syndicate 2012 had really cool encounter design. It had smart AI. It had awesome gunplay, great music, incredible visual design (bloom excepted). Instead of being judged on its merits, all people would talk about was the dubstep in the trailer, how EA had ruined the original Syndicate (which they'd never played, BTW), and how the game was only six hours long and a massive ripoff by the greedy Electronic Arts. Its FEAR-inspired gameplay was dismssed as a "Call of Duty clone" for some vague reason.

Crysis 2 was released in 2011. It is an amazing game with some truly special encounter design. Incredibly tight gunplay. Amazing music. It's a smart FPS game. It did so much stuff incredibly well. But outside of professional reviews, you rarely heard about that back in the day. Instead, you heard Crysis 1 fans throwing a tantrum because the game was different. "This isn't what I wanted from a Crysis game." The evil EA had ruined Crysis with their greed. People who praised the game's design were just "shills" and "not real Crysis fans". The whole "PC Master Race" prejudice was taking root about this point. A hate for consoles, a hate for "casual" gamers, and that still-common denial about the realities of game development.

Before Crysis 2 was released, Crytek explained the decisions behind the game. The compromises, the creative choices, and so on. They explained that games were becoming very expensive to make, and making the game multiplatform was necessary. There was no way to recoup their money without consoles. They pointed to rising budgets. To PC piracy.

And instead of listening, gamers fell back on this blind rage that has become so common. Any developer that says "piracy is an issue for us" gets screamed at. I'm sorry, but piracy is an issue for developers making 6-12 hour long FPS games. Maybe it's less of an issue for developers making gigantic open world games. (Notice CDPR are always wheeled out in a defense.) Crytek explaining that games were becoming expensive to make and how their games were being hurt by piracy was met with, "Just make them cheaper." And paranoid accusations that anyone who brings up piracy is "attacking gamers". Plus the outrage over the developers "betraying" their fans -- a new familiar chorus.

There's this obsession with throwing a tantrum any time any developer or publisher says anything less than glowing about any part of their audience.

It's frustrating how unbelievably dense and obstinate and ignorant gamers can be. So willing to bandwagon. So willing to buy into conspiracy theories instead of trying to understand basic business logic. Millions of people will just parrot whatever a youtuber told them. I am getting a little tired of people parroting the claim that EA said singleplayer games are dying. They never said that. Yet it keeps popping up. It's all the more galling to me that the same people who spread the lie about EA claiming singleplayer games don't sell and using that to claim EA are "out of touch" are often the same people shitting on modern Battlefield campaigns that are way better than they get given credit. There's no nuance. There's no appreciation. Just people having their little tantrums and wallowing in their "worst game of 201X" lists. It's just endless hate, distortion, and people attempting to blackmail developers through weaponized outrage. And it just seems to be getting worse. We saw the first inklings of it around 2010. Lest we forget Dragon Age 2, which was also paired with people getting angry that professional critics held different opinions to them about a flawed game that to its credit has an almost Obsidian-esque charm. But now it is happening on an unprecedented scale. It's happening with increased frequency.

I'm tired of it. Gaming culture is horrible. It masks bitterness and small mindedness behind "passion". People genuinely care more about the name on the box than the contents of the box when evaluating a game. And they act as if their bitterness towards not getting what they expected is somehow justified because they were conditioned to be coddled, pandered to, and told how amazing they are all these years.

Incredible post.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,955
Assassin's Creed 2. There's a really obvious jump where it skips ahead and you have to buy those chapters to let you know what happened.

You're talking like this is normal, though. Which it isn't even close to being.

The fact is the extras you get from any package above standard re not even close to being required for the full experience.

And you know this.
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
You're talking like this is normal, though. Which it isn't even close to being.

The fact is the extras you get from any package above standard re not even close to being required for the full experience.

And you know this.

Special Editions with content the 60$ version doesn't have isn't normal? I thought it was pretty standard by this point.

And no, you don't have the "Full Experience" with a game you buy if there's something you physically can not experience unless you pay more money. You need to pay more than 60$ to have the "Full Experience" in that case.

You can have a good experience, you can play the game, but you aren't going to have a "Full Experience"
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,955
Special Editions with content the 60$ version doesn't have isn't normal? I thought it was pretty standard by this point.

And no, you don't have the "Full Experience" with a game you buy if there's something you physically can not experience unless you pay more money. You need to pay more than 60$ to have the "Full Experience" in that case.

You can have a good experience, you can play the game, but you aren't going to have a "Full Experience"

Yes you are going to have the full experience.

All these extras are... extras.

You're being so pedantic you're completely missing the point.
 

Manu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,169
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Special Editions with content the 60$ version doesn't have isn't normal? I thought it was pretty standard by this point.

And no, you don't have the "Full Experience" with a game you buy if there's something you physically can not experience unless you pay more money. You need to pay more than 60$ to have the "Full Experience" in that case.

You can have a good experience, you can play the game, but you aren't going to have a "Full Experience"
We all agree on that, but you're not getting a SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE experience either by not buying the super expensive edition. Going from your posts, you'd think that for most games unless you pay another $10 for some optional skins you might as well be getting a demo of the game, which is outright false.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,955
We all agree on that, but you're not getting a SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE experience either by not buying the super expensive edition. Going from your posts, unless you pay another $10 for some optional skins you might as well be getting a demo of the game, which is outright false.

No, we don't all agree on that.

I'm still getting the full experience if I don't by the deluxe edition of GameX that comes with a set of exclusive skins.

The full experience is related to the game itself, NOT extras they slapped on after.

(I agree with you, I just want to point out how ridiculous PH's argument is).
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
We all agree on that, but you're not getting a SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE experience either by not buying the super expensive edition. Going from your posts, unless you pay another $10 for skins you might as well be getting a demo of the game, which is outright false.
That's not what I said.

I said that, for many games what you pay 60$ for isn't the complete game.

So if you want the complete game you have to pay more.

So the idea that games still cost 60$ isn't true. Honestly there's a lot more flexibility in gaming pricing now. Used to be that you'd just have one single price for a console game. Nowadays games go anywhere from 20-100 dollars.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,955
That's not what I said.

I said that, for many games what you pay 60$ for isn't the complete game.

I said if you want the complete game you have to pay more.

So the idea that games still cost 60$ isn't true. Honestly there's a lot more flexibility in gaming pricing now. Used to be that you'd just have one single price for a console game. Nowadays games go anywhere from 20-100 dollars.

No, it is true for 99% of the time.

Those extras in those games have 0 to do with the full experience.

Almost every single version above standard edition can be ignored.
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
Nope, they're 99% extras and completely supplementary to the full experience.
Do I really have to bust out the dictionary definition of "Full" here?

You're not using "Full Experience" right. You could say "Fun Experience" or, "Satisfying Experience" and you'd be correct.

But "Full Experience" implies you're getting everything the game has to offer, which if there's an edition that has content you can't access means that it isn't the full experience. I don't care if it's just a single costume, if it's not in the base game than the base game isn't complete.

I'm not saying you can't get fun out of just paying 60 dollars for a game. I'm saying that for some games if you want to get the Full Experience you need to pay more. Which is why games don't just cost 60 Dollars anymore, because gaming companies figured out a way to get people to pay more while still keeping that familiar price tag in stores.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,955
Do I really have to bust out the dictionary definition of "Full" here?

You're not using "Full Experience" right. You could say "Fun Experience" or, "Satisfying Experience" and you'd be correct.

But "Full Experience" implies you're getting everything the game has to offer, which if there's an edition that has content you can't access means that it isn't the full experience. I don't care if it's just a single costume, if it's not in the base game than the base game isn't complete.

I'm not saying you can't get fun out of just paying 60 dollars for a game. I'm saying that for some games if you want to get the Full Experience you need to pay more. Which is why games don't just cost 60 Dollars anymore, because gaming companies figured out a way to get people to pay more while still keeping that familiar price tag in stores.

Do I have to bust out the dictionary definition of "context"?

No, full is about the developer intended experience of the game.

NOT optional extras that are 99% cosmetic hand have 0 bearing on the above.

You're being pedantic and ridiculous.

YES companies nickle and dime.
NO you do not miss out on the full experience of the game as intended by the developers who crafted it.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,007
What's next, saying that If you buy a new car and decide not to buy the optional floor mats, you aren't getting a full car?
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
No, full is about the developer intended experience of the game.
Which is the edition that's sold as the Special Edition.

NOT optional extras that are 99% cosmetic hand have 0 bearing on the above.

Not true. Even if it's just cosmetics those have value to people. People like costumes, like dressing up. So if you cordon off some of it into a more expensive edition than they're not getting the full experience.

I'm going to go back to Splatoon 2 because man it's probably one of the best done examples of post launch support. Splatoon 2, as it is now, does not cost 60 dollars. It costs 80. Because if you want the Full Splatoon 2 Experience you need to:

1) Buy the base game for 60 Dollars
2) Buy the Octo Expansion for 20 Dollars.

What's next, saying that If you buy a new car and decide not to buy the optional floor mats, you aren't getting a full car?
I mean, discounting the fact that a work of entertainment is different than a car, they are slightly similar You're paying more for a complete experience. I'm not even judging special editions or expansions. But they do make the game cost more than 60$
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,955
Which is the edition that's sold as the Special Edition.



Not true. Even if it's just cosmetics those have value to people. People like costumes, like dressing up. So if you cordon off some of it into a more expensive edition than they're not getting the full experience.

I'm going to go back to Splatoon 2 because man it's probably one of the best done examples of post launch support. Splatoon 2, as it is now, does not cost 60 dollars. It costs 80. Because if you want the Full Splatoon 2 Experience you need to:

1) Buy the base game for 60 Dollars
2) Buy the Octo Expansion for 20 Dollars.


I mean, discounting the fact that a work of entertainment is different than a car, they are slightly similar You're paying more for a complete experience. I'm not even judging special editions or expansions. But they do make the game cost more than 60$

100% true, especially if it's just cosmetics.

Again, you're being far too pedantic here.

The FULL experience has NOTHING to do with optional extras.

You cannot point at DLC and post content releases as examples that back your claim. These are POST LAUNCH content packs, and have ZERO to do with the launch title's full experience.
 

Manu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,169
Buenos Aires, Argentina
I remember playing Assassin's Creed Origins and thinking the emotional climax of the game would've been much better if my horse had looked like a unicorn.

Damn you Ubisoft, DAMN YOU.
 

Derrick01

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,289
If anything people could use more standards about all the shit that goes on in this industry especially on here. How many of you were against early access for preorders a year or two ago but happily rolled over for it this year as every game started doing it?
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
What's next, saying that If you buy a new car and decide not to buy the optional floor mats, you aren't getting a full car?
Complaining that they didn't show you the DVD/Bluray extras when you go see a movie in theater. I guess better example would be longer directors cut not shown in theaters, but sold as Bluray later on. The film quite literally has parts cut off!
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
100% true, especially if it's just cosmetics.

Again, you're being far too pedantic here.

The FULL experience has NOTHING to do with optional extras.

You cannot point at DLC and post content releases as examples that back your claim. These are POST LAUNCH content packs, and have ZERO to do with the launch title's full experience.
And we've had DLC/expansion packs for decades at this point and I don't think they've gone up in price wither. SO even by his definition of "complete experience", the price of games hasn't gone up for that.
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
100% true, especially if it's just cosmetics.

Again, you're being far too pedantic here.

The FULL experience has NOTHING to do with optional extras.
OK we are officially just talking past each other.

I say that the "extra" content counts as part of the complete game and you don't think it does. It's a fundamental difference in terms of how we think about things.

There's no point in discussing this further because we're not even starting from the same place.

I remember playing Assassin's Creed Origins and thinking the emotional climax of the game would've been much better if my horse had looked like a unicorn.

Damn you Ubisoft, DAMN YOU.
This but unironically.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,955
OK we are officially just talking past each other.

I say that the "extra" content counts as part of the complete game and you don't. It's a fundamental difference in terms of how we think about things.

There's no point in discussing this further because we're not even starting from the same place.

No, as I stated you're being ridiculously pedantic with your definitions.

Optional extras are literally just that. Optional. Nothing to do with the full experience of the main game, just optional extras added on afterwards to generate more income. Shady? Maybe. Anything to do with the "full experience"? No.

You have no basis for your argument here beyond being pedantic.
 

MrMephistoX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,754
This isn't just gaming though, there's hate boners for literally every other industry as well. Just dig into any DCEU thread or simply look at what people say when the Yankees sign a top free agent.

Pretty much. The toxic tribalism of all recreational activities moved from the pub or private or private conversations to "letters to the editor" then it evolved to chat rooms and message boards. Now it's all of the above 24/7 through social media. Jerks are everywhere but they have a much larger audience of group thinkers forming tribes now: nothing short of an EMP is putting that genie back in the bottle unless moderators start coming into social media. Here at least truly toxic shit gets taken care of by the MODs despite how often arguments get heated.
 

Deleted member 46922

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 21, 2018
595
Sorry, but to me that's not Gaming Culture, that's human culture.
I've never seen or heard a discussion on any subject I'm interested in that wasn't full of needless outrage and superficial bickering.
People actually seem to be THAT stupid. I'm totally numb to it these days, let others waste their lives arguing over the most trivial things, I won't participate ever again, life is really too short. :)
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
No, as I sa6tatd you're being ridiculously pedantic with your definitions.

Optional extras are literally just that. Optional.

You have no basis for your argument here.

It doesn't matter if they're optional. Having the Full Experience means doing the optional things. I don't have a full experience of with a game unless I do all the side quests and clear the optional bosses and stages and acquire all the cosmetics.

You clearly don't think that, you think you can have a "Full Experience" without 100% completing a game. So there's no point in talking about it.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,007
It doesn't matter if they're optional. Having the Full Experience means doing the optional things. I don't have a full experience of with a game unless I do all the side quests and clear the optional bosses and stages.

You clearly don't think that, you think you can have a "Full Experience" without 100% completing a game. So there's no point in talking about it.
Hmmm, and you're unable to do all the side quests and all the optional bosses and stages if you don't have that extra optional skin? And that extra skin is the difference between you having the trial version of the game (your own words) and the full game? And why did you say dlc should be free then immediately praise a game with paid dlc for doing dlc right? Also how is expecting free dlc not entitlement?
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,955
It doesn't matter if they're optional. Having the Full Experience means doing the optional things. I don't have a full experience of with a game unless I do all the side quests and clear the optional bosses and stages.

You clearly don't think that, you think you can have a "Full Experience" without 100% completing a game. So there's no point in talking about it.

No, it fully does matter if they're optional.

These extras have 0 to do with the base game's full experience, and have been added on as optional extra items that have literally no bearing on the former.
 

BluePigGanon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
892
Having a sensible discussion about the pros and cons of Battlefield V's campaign has become impossible in most corners of the internet. I find this incredibly depressing. Imagine living in world where a discussion about Battlefield V's campaign was met with thoughtful critique about the mixture of linear and open sandbox-driven game design that calls to mind the likes of Project IGI, trying to keep both stealth and action as viable playstyles. Imagine being able to meaningfully discuss the writing in each War Story, how, much like classic WWII films such as The Great Escape and The Dirty Dozen, they use a real war paired with semi-fictional individuals to examine the human condition in the context of war. What did the game do right? How could the next game improve?

Nope. We live in the world where a few key factors completely derail discussion.

Some people refuse to play the game, and parrot the opinions of controversy seeking youtubers who always go for a "the writing is shit, the gameplay is shit, everything about the game is shit" angle. Mixed in with some "the developers attacked their audience" whining for good measure. Consider that in 2015, the exact same thing happened with Battlefield Hardline. There were even Breitbart articles claiming Hardline was a politically motivated piece of anti-conservative propaganda.

Some people do play the game, but they hate the genre. This is surprisingly common. With a series like Battlefield, most of the MP audience does not give a shit about story-driven singleplayer FPS games. Ever since Hardline, the series has responded to negativity towards BF3's absurd linearity by embracing sandbox level design. Allowing the player to solve problems using stealth if they wish to. They've dialed back cinematic spectacle in favor of player agency. This approach to design was what made the likes of Far Cry and Crysis popular back in the day. Player freedom. Player agency. It turns out some people HATE this type of design. They want the singleplayer to be like the multiplayer. Endless bombastic battles where you mindlessly shoot hundreds of enemies in a glorified MP tutorial. Instead of recognising that "it's not for me", they decide it's not for anyone. They resent its inclusion. The inability to recognise that not everything is aimed at you is a core fault in the mainstreaming gaming psyche. "I don't care about this thing, so why do developers include it? Why do they put so much effort into something I wish didn't exist?"

I mentioned Hardline. Lovely game. Visceral's swan song. It had a diverse cast, some sharp writing, and mechanically it paired linear gameplay with sandbox gameplay. You could complete huge sections of the game without killing anyone. The arresting mechanic was a bit overpowered, true, but it worked really well with the theme of the game. And the Battlefield fanbase flipped out. "This isn't what I want from a Battlefield game." They wanted mindless slaughter on battlefields, not a game where players were in the shoes of a Cuban American police officer trying to kill as few people as possible.

Another key problem is how many people know jack shit about game design. About how to craft a fun videogame. Once a game has a target painted on its back, people will run around claiming the AI is "shit". Happens every time. And their usual examples are nothing more than the game having competent stealth mechanics that allow players to complete missions without setting off an alarm every 30 seconds. Mafia III comes to mind. Game had a target on its back because it pissed off people who didn't believe a Mafia game should be about anything except Italians. M3's AI was pretty damn good. It flanked, took cover, worked in groups, and generally put up a stiff fight. But it was also designed to allow players to infiltrate buildings using cover mechanics and such. People spread gifs saying, "Oh, look at this idiotic AI that walks past the player as they're beside the wall." Of course it walks past the player. Otherwise the stealth wouldn't work. How else could you grab them from behind, knock them out, and drag them behind cover?

Notice how often EA pops up? It's depressing. Syndicate 2012 had really cool encounter design. It had smart AI. It had awesome gunplay, great music, incredible visual design (bloom excepted). Instead of being judged on its merits, all people would talk about was the dubstep in the trailer, how EA had ruined the original Syndicate (which they'd never played, BTW), and how the game was only six hours long and a massive ripoff by the greedy Electronic Arts. Its FEAR-inspired gameplay was dismssed as a "Call of Duty clone" for some vague reason.

Crysis 2 was released in 2011. It is an amazing game with some truly special encounter design. Incredibly tight gunplay. Amazing music. It's a smart FPS game. It did so much stuff incredibly well. But outside of professional reviews, you rarely heard about that back in the day. Instead, you heard Crysis 1 fans throwing a tantrum because the game was different. "This isn't what I wanted from a Crysis game." The evil EA had ruined Crysis with their greed. People who praised the game's design were just "shills" and "not real Crysis fans". The whole "PC Master Race" prejudice was taking root about this point. A hate for consoles, a hate for "casual" gamers, and that still-common denial about the realities of game development.

Before Crysis 2 was released, Crytek explained the decisions behind the game. The compromises, the creative choices, and so on. They explained that games were becoming very expensive to make, and making the game multiplatform was necessary. There was no way to recoup their money without consoles. They pointed to rising budgets. To PC piracy.

And instead of listening, gamers fell back on this blind rage that has become so common. Any developer that says "piracy is an issue for us" gets screamed at. I'm sorry, but piracy is an issue for developers making 6-12 hour long FPS games. Maybe it's less of an issue for developers making gigantic open world games. (Notice CDPR are always wheeled out in a defense.) Crytek explaining that games were becoming expensive to make and how their games were being hurt by piracy was met with, "Just make them cheaper." And paranoid accusations that anyone who brings up piracy is "attacking gamers". Plus the outrage over the developers "betraying" their fans -- a new familiar chorus.

There's this obsession with throwing a tantrum any time any developer or publisher says anything less than glowing about any part of their audience.

It's frustrating how unbelievably dense and obstinate and ignorant gamers can be. So willing to bandwagon. So willing to buy into conspiracy theories instead of trying to understand basic business logic. Millions of people will just parrot whatever a youtuber told them. I am getting a little tired of people parroting the claim that EA said singleplayer games are dying. They never said that. Yet it keeps popping up. It's all the more galling to me that the same people who spread the lie about EA claiming singleplayer games don't sell and using that to claim EA are "out of touch" are often the same people shitting on modern Battlefield campaigns that are way better than they get given credit. There's no nuance. There's no appreciation. Just people having their little tantrums and wallowing in their "worst game of 201X" lists. It's just endless hate, distortion, and people attempting to blackmail developers through weaponized outrage. And it just seems to be getting worse. We saw the first inklings of it around 2010. Lest we forget Dragon Age 2, which was also paired with people getting angry that professional critics held different opinions to them about a flawed game that to its credit has an almost Obsidian-esque charm. But now it is happening on an unprecedented scale. It's happening with increased frequency.

I'm tired of it. Gaming culture is horrible. It masks bitterness and small mindedness behind "passion". People genuinely care more about the name on the box than the contents of the box when evaluating a game. And they act as if their bitterness towards not getting what they expected is somehow justified because they were conditioned to be coddled, pandered to, and told how amazing they are all these years.

God this just sums it up so well. As I was reading your examples, I was thinking of a dozen more - but that wouldn't even be all of them, we could do this all day. It's a fucking trainwreck - and depressing, in a way. I'm a lifelong gamer, started with the Atari 2600. You would think with the Internet it would be easy to find like-minded people who just love gaming and sharing their love for it, sure not everyone liking the same games but just being able to enthusiastically talk about the pastime... and it seems more and more rare. YouTube in particular is a shitshow, but frankly discussion boards aren't much better. Even ResetEra has days where half the topics on the first page are some variation of "Can we talk about how terrible [x mechanic] is in [game]?" or "[Some design or commercial choice] is a SLAP IN THE FACE OF GAMERS" or whatever other hyperbolic nonsense.

But to be fair: I feel like I always have to point out it's absolutely not "gaming culture". It's the Internet. Look at the discussion section of any topic you can think of - politics, religion, movies, comics, books, TV... seriously, you name it - and you see the same shallow, glib negativity. There are just too many people who interact with topics in that way now, the first approach to the subject is criticism.

I just try to avoid it. I don't even read the threads here that I know will bum me out based on the title, which often sets the tone by being provocative right off the bat. When YouTube suggests videos - be it snide criticism of games or "HOW TLJ RUINED STAR WARS" or "PLOT HOLES IN [that movie you kinda liked]" or WHATEVER, I just block channels.

But it's a drag.
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
Hmmm, and you're unable to do all the side quests and all the optional bosses and stages if you don't have that extra optional skin? And that extra skin is the difference between you having the trial version of the game (your own words) and the full game?
Then I didn't get the "Full Experience."

The difference is that I didn't get it because I didn't invest enough time or energy into the game to get it, compared to simply not being able to do so because I didn't invest enough money to do so.
No, it fully does matter if they're optional.

These extras have 0 to do with the base game's full experience, and have been added on as optional extra items that have literally no bearing on the former.

Holy crap I've been trying to do "agree to disagree" since we're clearly not on the same page in how we think about video games.

You don't think extras count for the "full experience." So you think those games that have limited editions and DLC are still 60 dollars. I think they do count so I think they cost more

Nothing I say can convince you that games don't just cost 60$ because the very reasoning I'm using to explain you don't accept. On a fundamental level how we think about video games and the content within them is different.
 
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matimeo

UI/UX Game Industry Veteran
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
979
Sorry, but to me that's not Gaming Culture, that's human culture.
I've never seen or heard a discussion on any subject I'm interested in that wasn't full of needless outrage and superficial bickering.
People actually seem to be THAT stupid. I'm totally numb to it these days, let others waste their lives arguing over the most trivial things, I won't participate ever again, life is really too short. :)

Exactly. Life is too short.
 

BrutalInsane

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
2,080
No, it fully does matter if they're optional.

These extras have 0 to do with the base game's full experience, and have been added on as optional extra items that have literally no bearing on the former.

I agree. One thing people seem to forget, the idea of DLC isn't new. There were 'expansion packs' for Wing Commander, the original Syndicate, BF1942, etc back in the day. The base games were 100% the full experience, these were just add-one that were optional purchases that expanded the game world, but weren't necessary.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,955
Holy crap I've been trying to do "agree to disagree" since we're clearly not on the same page in how we think about video games.

You don't think extras count for the "full experience." So you think those games that have limited editions and DLC are still 60 dollars. I think they do count so I think they cost more

Nothing I say can convince you that games don't just cost 60$ because the very reasoning I'm using to explain you don't accept. On a fundamental level how we think about video games and the content within them is different.

This is because your argument is base on pedantic reasoning not logic.
 

Olaf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,419
Sort of ironic to complain about "gamer outrage culture" here, on a site that can find outrage in just about anything, and is involved in a lot of the "gaming outrage" itself.
 

Interficium

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,569
there's a certain delicious irony in the fact that gamers are so un-self-aware that while they hate, HATE, being manipulated and monetized by video game publishers, they absolutely love being manipulated and monetized by pied piper outrage merchants with youtube channels and patreons like yongyea, cleanprincegaming, jim sterling, etc.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,955
there's a certain delicious irony in the fact that gamers are so un-self-aware that while they hate, HATE, being manipulated and monetized by video game publishers, they absolutely love being manipulated and monetized by pied piper outrage merchants with youtube channels and patreons like yongyea, cleanprincegaming, jim sterling, etc.

What if those "pied piper" merchants are merely echoing the sentiments shared already?

That's how it usually feels, they almost never provide any new insight and seem to make money mostly off preaching to the choir.
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
This is because your argument is base on pedantic reasoning not logic.

Ah yes, so pedantic to think that "Complete" means everything is available in a game. So pedantic to think that the "Full Experience" means the

FULL

Full
/fo͝ol/
adjective
containing or holding as much or as many as possible; having no empty space.
"wastebaskets full of rubbish"
synonyms:filled, filled up, filled to capacity, filled to the brim, brimming, brimful More

2.
not lacking or omitting anything; complete.
"fill in your full name below"
synonyms:comprehensive, thorough, exhaustive, all-inclusive, all-encompassing, all-embracing, in depth; More

EXPERIENCE.

Congrats you actually made me bust out the dictionary. To tell you what words mean.

The Full Experience of a game is the entire package. It's getting all the DLC, it's getting any expansion packages, and it's playing them to completion. Anything less is not the full experience.

Which is why many games cost more than 60$ now to get the Full Experience.

I'm right. You're wrong. I'm not even saying this is completely a bad thing! I'm absolutely OK with special editions and expansion packs. I don't need nor want the Full Experience for all the games I play. AC2, which I pointed out earlier? Loved that game. Never played the complete package but I was happy with what I got. Microtransactions, lootboxes, and artificial grinding to encourage paying to skip it are the bad things.
 

Manu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,169
Buenos Aires, Argentina
ex·tra
/ˈekstrə/

noun

  1. 1.
    an item in addition to what is usual or strictly necessary.
    "I had an education with all the extras"
    synonyms:addition, supplement, adjunct, addendum, add-on, bonus
    "an optional extra"

You know, since we're throwing dictionary definitions now apparently.
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,965
lmao, this dude is extreme.

EDIT: And his presentation is terrible and clearly don't know what he's talking about at times but rambles on. Damn, its hard to imagine people sitting thru that video after video.


To be fair those are old videos. His new stuff is actually well done and has some good editing. Also he captures his own footage now which is a big plus.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,007
there's a certain delicious irony in the fact that gamers are so un-self-aware that while they hate, HATE, being manipulated and monetized by video game publishers, they absolutely love being manipulated and monetized by pied piper outrage merchants with youtube channels and patreons like yongyea, cleanprincegaming, jim sterling, etc.
Indeed.