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Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Always interesting to see these discussions turn into one of "yeh but how bad is crunch really?".
Last time I talked about it in a ND thread I had people coming in to tell me how I must be young because that's how "the real world" works.

Like even if that's true is that supposed to make it ok? The attitude of "that'show it is so don't even try to change it or complain" is weird to me.

Im excited for Cyberpunk and I'm not going to pretend otherwise but crunch is a situation that needs to be dealt with somehow.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,653
I have no idea, but who is Richard Hoeg?
He's a lawyer that makes law-related content about the gaming industry

www.youtube.com

Hoeg Law

The Hoeg Law Firm is a business law firm with big law experience and a small firm approach focusing on start-ups, technology, financing, and everything else ...
 

Admiral Woofington

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
14,892
Has Jason ever sent people to attack lmao. If you're taking your fucking pissing match in a public space and he has supporters replying because it's being discussed in social media then maybe keep it away from public eyes?
 

Deleted member 13077

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,513
The thing I don't get is that it's literally impossible to go to bat for CDPR and come off as a good person, given how awful they've been even outside of crunch.

The fact that anyone is defending them and not expecting to come off as a crunch defending, transphobia enabling asshole is beyond me.
 
Jun 26, 2018
3,829
That's what I've seen from my experience so far, at least in Canada. Maybe they have laws for that protecting employees.

Protections vary from country to country AND from one type of employment to another.

Contract workers can often be dropped at a moments notice from what I've seen, with little need to argue why from the employer side. And no worker would sue/challenge such a decision, because of the costs involved I imagine.

A union could help fund a wrongful firing case, but most developers are not unionized unfortunately.

Edit: And even when you have some of the best protections in the world AND you are literally unable to be fired because you are an essential worker, you can still be pressured into "optional" overtime by group pressure (Speaking from personal experience)
 

emilioasis

Member
Nov 1, 2017
500
getting huge "Al Gore may be right about the world coming to an end but I don't like him so it´s ok if the world literally burns" vibes from some "influencers"
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
I don't think this is generally true in the video game industry anymore.

Many of them are quite well compensated, given overtime pay, and are paid a bonus.

The estimated bonus CDPR employees stand to make this year from profit sharing is $50k per employee in addition to their base pay.
That's not true iirc. The $50k was calculated from revenue, but I read they only get a share of profit which would be more like $4k per employee annually. Also plenty of people in the industry even at known devs make nothing at all special for a salary,
 

sirap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,210
South East Asia
User Banned (2 Weeks): Whataboutism; Antagonizing Fellow Member; History of the Same Behavior

www.resetera.com

[BBC] In China, Uighurs 'moved into factory forced labour' for foreign brands Apple, Google, Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony

It was recommended that I cross post this from EtcetEra for awareness, particularly as we move towards a new generation of consoles. Letting people make informed decisions about where they're willing to put their money is the best thing anyone can do here. Here's the latest on the various...

No journalist in this industry wants to talk about it, despite being aware of it.

Not even Schreier.
 

vodalus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,220
CT
She went on a podcast, called someone's work clickbait, and was surprised that that person fought back?
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,356
If you're forced at a workplace to do mandatory overtime, and there was a letter sent from your office to its staff apologizing for that change after it had been promised it wouldn't happen, and you go on the defensive and try to claim none of that is true by saying "I chose to do the overtime," you're a massive dirtbag.

Game Informer parroting that lie is pretty fucking damning to them as an information source, and that extends to a poor reflection on the individuals the more they push aside the reality of those events and attack real reporting.
 
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EloquentM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,631
All the next generation consoles are built by slave labor. There is no good corporations in gaming.
www.resetera.com

[BBC] In China, Uighurs 'moved into factory forced labour' for foreign brands Apple, Google, Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony

It was recommended that I cross post this from EtcetEra for awareness, particularly as we move towards a new generation of consoles. Letting people make informed decisions about where they're willing to put their money is the best thing anyone can do here. Here's the latest on the various...

No journalist in this industry wants to talk about it, not even Schreier.
im commenting on the whataboutism guys.
 

The Boat

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,862
Fucking Schreier and his agenda to shine a light on bad industry practices! *Shakes fist* Don't you know that some people do crunch because they want to and are very passionate! It happens in other industries too, so it's perfectly fine!
 

Deleted member 2172

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,577
Folks coming at Liana need to grow the fuck up. She was sharing her conversation with CDPR employees and she is well within her right to do so. It is possible to show the other side of this situation from other CDPR employee's perspectives without actually advocating for crunch. Conversations are a two way street and if you honestly watch that video and think she is defending crunch culture then I will say it again: grow up.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Deserved or not. The tweet Jason did to Parris was basically a hit piece. So Jason isn't above being criticized for sending toxic people at people.

I guess Nick not lying?
Er, this is a gross mischaracterization. Parris literally quote tweeted Jason and told him he "had an agenda" in talking about his reporting on labor conditions at CDPR. I don't think Jason's response was a good one (it was petty and fairly unprofessional) but Parris attacked his credibility directly to his face first based on nothing, meanwhile Parris is literally doing PR work for CDPR on the game.

You cannot walk up to someone, punch them in the face, and then act surprised when they hit back.
 

Hero_of_the_Day

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
17,327


Again, show some fucking receipts that he "sent" his mob out. He is allowed to defend himself, and isn't responsible for people then being shitty. It'd be nice if he said "don't be dicks on my behalf." Because ass holes always need to be reminded of that. But, fuck off trying to make him responsible for ass holes actions just because he responded to shit that was being said about him.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA

He never named her, just like she defended herself by saying she didn't name him specifically. She then proceeded to his Twitter page and put him on blast. If anyone put names in the line of fire, it was her. Harassment is bad and she shouldn't have tried it herself. Disappointing people are being terrible to everyone for Jason being correct.
 

Darkmaigle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,463
Parris is a good dude but quote tweeted Jason and continued to sub tweet him after so he's not some poor collateral damage - he went after him so Jason responded
 

EloquentM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,631
Folks coming at Liana need to grow the fuck up. She was sharing her conversation with CDPR employees and she is well within her right to do so. It is possible to show the other side of this situation from other CDPR employee's perspectives without being accused of advocating for crunch. Conversations are a two way street and if you honestly watch that video and think she is defending crunch culture then I will say it again: grow up.
Except she clearly refuted Jason's report, acted like she didn't and didn't actually do any reporting, what're you on about?
 

DarthWalden

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,030
What is this "agenda" Jason has that they keep going on about? Being pro-worker?

I'm not the biggest fan of everything Jason has said or done but these tweets reek of bootlicking

His agenda is/was to expose harsh working conditions which is a righteous agenda and has done good for the gaming industry as a whole.

On the flip side the issue was always nuanced but is much more nuanced now than it was say 10-15 years and I'm starting to get the sense that he doesn't seem to understand that.

His agenda is basically crunch is unacceptable under no circumstances, but there are circumstances and situations where it is and can be acceptable and I think most people working any job with hard deadlines can attest to this. I'm not anywhere near the gaming industry and I've certainly encountered my fair share of crunch.
 

Phantom

Writer at Jeux.ca
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,446
Canada
Jason's reporting is mostly 100% bulletproof, so I believe him and his work ethics. GI on the other hand...not so much.
 

F4r0_Atak

Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,516
Home
Protections vary from country to country AND from one type of employment to another.

Contract workers can often be dropped at a moments notice from what I've seen, with little need to argue why from the employer side. And no worker would sue/challenge such a decision, because of the costs involved I imagine.

A union could help fund a wrongful firing case, but most developers are not unionized unfortunately.

Edit: And even when you have some of the best protections in the world AND you are literally unable to be fired because you are an essential worker, you can still be pressured into "optional" overtime by group pressure (Speaking from personal experience)
That, I could see. Thanks for the clarification.
 

Gjallarsean

Member
Oct 10, 2018
746
Even if the point that was made in this podcast about the devs overwhelmingly voting for mandatory 6-day work weeks instead of delaying...what's the point being made? Like, OF COURSE they're going to vote for that - a delay just means more 'voluntary' crunch over the course of many more months, crunching to release date means there's an end in sight.

It's all bad. It's astounding the lengths people will go to in order to defend CDPR.
 

Spades

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,781
Liana not coming across well in this. She's basically suggesting that they're allowed to criticise Jason's work on a Podcast but he's not allowed to justify his claims publicly on Twitter? Random.
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,897
I don't get this. Jason didn't @her did he?
No, his tweet doesn't name an individual, just the podcast. (He did tag Parris the other week after Paris had screenshotted him IIRC) It's ridiculous that people would make threats and shit over this and it's infuriating. Let them hash it out like professionals.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
www.resetera.com

[BBC] In China, Uighurs 'moved into factory forced labour' for foreign brands Apple, Google, Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony

It was recommended that I cross post this from EtcetEra for awareness, particularly as we move towards a new generation of consoles. Letting people make informed decisions about where they're willing to put their money is the best thing anyone can do here. Here's the latest on the various...

No journalist in this industry wants to talk about it, despite being aware of it.

Not even Schreier.
Let's be real for a second here, Jason does not have any contacts or sources in China, and especially not in Xinjiang or with anyone who is in anyway connected to the Uighur labor camps. You cannot expect him to report on something he has no information about, no sources on, etc. Other people are reporting on this issue, who do have those contacts and the resources to actually pursue stories like this.
 

Tbm24

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,235
Jason's reporting is mostly 100% bulletproof, so I believe him and his work ethics. GI on the other hand...not so much.
At this point, this isn't even about reporting. Jason's report can be 100% true and the devs talking to this GI person and their experience can also be true. It's just a messy topic that working in the software industry, no one seems to know how to really talk about.
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,897
I might add that by taking the interview last year and speaking about it Jason is in the unique position of having been used by CDPR specifically to get good press about a labor policy they did not follow through on.
 

DealWithIt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,672
His agenda is/was to expose harsh working conditions which is a righteous agenda and has done good for the gaming industry as a whole.

On the flip side the issue was always nuanced but is much more nuanced now than it was say 10-15 years and I'm starting to get the sense that he doesn't seem to understand that.

His agenda is basically crunch is unacceptable under no circumstances, but there are circumstances and situations where it is and can be acceptable and I think most people working any job with hard deadlines can attest to this. I'm not anywhere near the gaming industry and I've certainly encountered my fair share of crunch.
This ain't it. He's reporting *bad cases.* I don't think any reporting he's done has been anywhere near marginal on crunch. Someday maybe you'll be right and he'll go too far, but that has not happened yet. At all.
 
Oct 29, 2017
6,251
Tweets mentioning him pushing an agenda again in 5...4..3..2..1..

For all the petty grievances that gamers have against developers, you'd think this is one agenda they'd be glad to see from a journalist. But when it's against a company they like, or a game they're excited about, the armchair revolutionaries fighting for "gamer rights" turn into whipped corporate toadies.

These business practices should be condemned no matter which company does it.
 

Deleted member 5491

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,249
He's a lawyer that makes law-related content about the gaming industry

www.youtube.com

Hoeg Law

The Hoeg Law Firm is a business law firm with big law experience and a small firm approach focusing on start-ups, technology, financing, and everything else ...
Okay, thanks. But I still don't kinda get the message or the context that I seem to miss
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
At this point, this isn't even about reporting. Jason's report can be 100% true and the devs talking to this GI person and their experience can also be true. It's just a messy topic that working in the software industry, no one seems to know how to really talk about.
If Jason's is true, then Game Informer's characterization is false. He reported it accurately from devs, and Game Informer suggests it was essentially optional and overblown. That directly refutes Jason's reporting that it was not optional and that it is affecting devs there negatively, according to devs themselves. Game Informer is defending something that they don't have a defense for.
 
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