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Feb 23, 2019
1,426
Is this is a bit? Dude's easily the journalist in gaming and is arguably the only investigative journalist in the industry. Just incredible ignorance here.

Yeah he's a journalist in gaming. There are many of them out there.

The people he talked to at Naughty Dog never had crunch mandated, but there was a culture of it due to a studio filled with high achievers. One ex-employee said he personally never worked more than 40 hours a week as a lead.

So...at this point I'm trying to understand how we piece together a story by only talking to a small subset of employees who all have different opinions on "crunch"? When, where, and how does this become bad?

Simply posting a few stories of people working long hours isn't saying much...you could write a similar story for almost every industry, that's how our world currently turns (for better or worse)
 

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,806
I mean, I guess it depends how it was framed/presented to the workers?

e.g.
"You can do another 3-4 months of crunch, 12+hours a day 5+ days a week, all across the Holidays, or we can do 1 month of brutal crunch 6+ days a week, but at least you'll be (likely) done by the Holidays. Your choice."
(Obviously I'm not saying that's the way it happened. Just a possibility).
 

Minthara

Freelance Market Director
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
7,892
Montreal
I honestly don't mean for this to sound combative, but, if you're an employer who has an open position, are you going to promote the person who's willing and able to work harder over someone who isn't?

No, because I have a project management degree and I know that more time thrown at a problem does not mean anything about project efficiency. To me, a project that results in crunch means it is a project that had a management failure along the way.

If I hire someone to do a job for 35 hours a week, I expect them to efficiently be an adult and do those 35 hours a week. I don't expect them to work 40+. In fact, as a manager I actively discourage working more than your allotted hours and have pushed for and gotten my team time management training in order to help them not crunch.

I also make sure that they are given projects with realistic end dates. And, when all else fails, if we DO have to work extended hours on a project, I make sure they take those extended hours out of future days/weeks because they sacrificed for both the company and me, and its important to reward that.

None of this happens in the video game industry because crunch if embraced, championed, cheered and expected. Project management failures from up high snowball down to the minimum wage outsourced employees and hurt them the most. And I don't just mean the actual project managers, I mean the company CEO, shareholders and anyone else above the game project managers who enforce crunch on a project. Its a failure of management, and always will be to me.

Its why the industry needs to unionize at a wide scale and the fight for workers rights truly has to begin.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,949
Always interesting to see these discussions turn into one of "yeh but how bad is crunch really?".
 

bbq of doom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,606
Yeah he's a journalist in gaming. There are many of them out there.

The people he talked to at Naughty Dog never had crunch mandated, but there was a culture of it due to a studio filled with high achievers. One ex-employee said he personally never worked more than 40 hours a week as a lead.

So...at this point I'm trying to understand how we piece together a story by only talking to a small subset of employees who all have different opinions on "crunch"? When, where, and how does this become bad?

Simply posting a few stories of people working long hours isn't saying much...you could write a similar story for almost every industry, that's how our world currently turns (for better or worse)

I think this is an extraordinary reach.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
Imagine thinking crunch is optional. Imagine thinking employees can just say no and that the studio doesn't mind letting the date move if people don't like crunch. When they are apologizing to your spouse in emails for crunch and it is mandatory now for many weeks. Imagine thinking that was optional and not a culture.
 

Deleted member 5491

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,249
Yeah he's a journalist in gaming. There are many of them out there.

The people he talked to at Naughty Dog never had crunch mandated, but there was a culture of it due to a studio filled with high achievers. One ex-employee said he personally never worked more than 40 hours a week as a lead.

So...at this point I'm trying to understand how we piece together a story by only talking to a small subset of employees who all have different opinions on "crunch"? When, where, and how does this become bad?

Simply posting a few stories of people working long hours isn't saying much...you could write a similar story for almost every industry, that's how our world currently turns (for better or worse)
Thanatos has made several good posts in this thread alone how "optional" crunch is and what implication is can have on your carreer.
You can also look at ANY industry that is doing something creative, something that can be a passion project. You have to stop those with strict labour laws, to protect everyone else.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,550
Jason is passionate about crunch because he's talked to too many burned-out devs who were victims of it and he believes it's detrimental to the games industry to see these talented people leave the industry because of it. As a journalist who cares about the industry he covers, he'll always try and find a way to highlight abuses and the story here was mostly that the CDPR backed out on their pledge of "no crunch" for Cyberpunk. The details of how that crunch was implemented is just splitting hairs to the story he was conveying. The reality, regardless of whether they voted for it or got paid extra, is that devs get burned out from crunch. Period. Devs who get paid massive bonuses get just as burned out as devs who don't. Money can only solve so many problems. It can't bring back time lost from loved ones and the many other consequences of working too hard.
 
Oct 27, 2017
115
Weird that GI, who had a cover story for Cyber Punk, is trying it's best to make people not feel bad about crunch at CDPR. I work overtime. I crunch for software releases. It sucks and the devs I work with fight like hell to try to make it never happen. It's not excusable and it's due to poor planning and bad management. I'm still proud of the work I did even if I did it under crunch, but that doesn't make the crunch right. This isn't a time to be excusing crunch because we all want to be giddy consumers. The game should have been delayed for as long as it needed to be finished without crunch or features should have been stripped. Again, this is always due to management under estimating and over promising.
 

ratcliffja

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,889
Crunch sucks. There's a reason that nearly every developer at least gives lip service to trying to avoid it. I've been happy to work overtime to improve the quality of a game, but extended forced overtime is never a positive. Oddly enough, GameInformer somehow looks the worst here in a story that was never about them.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
This is why journalists can't get away with 'yeah I spoke to some people...' when making claims around industry practices. It's really easy to write positive hype articles about multinationals and downplay concerns when you get friendly emails and promotional gifts from their PR and commercial wings that also advertise with you. It's far harder to actually be a journalist and stand up stories with evidence about endemic industry issues when real people's jobs and health are on the line and a multinational's legal team is just waiting for you to drop the ball.

Can't wait for the GameInformer review to gloss over any and all of the issues related to the game.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
I don't care if they opted into this or decided to work extra hours. I got a problem with it the moment it becomes mandatory.
 

OnionPowder

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,323
Orlando, FL
Weird that GI, who had a cover story for Cyber Punk, is trying it's best to make people not feel bad about crunch at CDPR. I work overtime. I crunch for software releases. It sucks and the devs I work with fight like hell to try to make it never happen. It's not excusable and it's due to poor planning and bad management. I'm still proud of the work I did even if I did it under crunch, but that doesn't make the crunch right. This isn't a time to be excusing crunch because we all want to be giddy consumers. The game should have been delayed for as long as it needed to be finished without crunch or features should have been stripped. Again, this is always due to management under estimating and over promising.

Yep, they should have taken a realistic delay. They keep delaying it to try and meet certain sales milestones instead of when it should be done.

Coincidentally it just happened to release in time for Black Friday and Christmas shopping? Crazy how the project lined up perfectly with that. Huge coincidence that we had crunch to get it out though.
 

ItIsOkBro

Happy New Year!!
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,476
What's overblown? They said there wouldn't be mandatory crunch and there's mandatory crunch. I honestly don't care about the "passionate" devs side of the story, for a few reasons. 1) Crunch from a "passionate" dev is still crunch and 2) "passionate" devs are the terrible and make the rest of us doing our agreed 35/week look and feel bad and 3) allowing "passionate" dev crunch is not a good look in the first place.
 
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Deleted member 13077

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,513
The simple fact is that this was always going to be a watershed moment for a lot of these influencers. CDPR as an entity have pretty shitty morals, and others have been torn to pieces for doing some of the stuff they've done. On the other hand, they're about to release one of the most hyped games of the year. Is is possible to separate the art from the artist? Do we need to make a moral point here about these practices and actions? Or do we just bury our heads in the sand? Turns out it was the latter.

Can't wait for all those same people to be sitting round in their Hogwarts robes sent to them by WB studios ignoring all of the vile shit coming from JKR when Hogwarts Legacy releases...
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
Crunch is sadly a reality of most jobs. I understand voluntary Crunch is not very real tbh, but game development is probably one of the only industries were delaying a project is real.
I work with public tenders and believe me... working seven days a week 12 hours is the norm in the final stages. Then people tell you money is not worth it, look for another job... Just to land in another crunch filled industry. Tech is the land of crunch.
 

Deleted member 18944

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,944
Yeah he's a journalist in gaming. There are many of them out there.

The people he talked to at Naughty Dog never had crunch mandated, but there was a culture of it due to a studio filled with high achievers. One ex-employee said he personally never worked more than 40 hours a week as a lead.

So...at this point I'm trying to understand how we piece together a story by only talking to a small subset of employees who all have different opinions on "crunch"? When, where, and how does this become bad?

Simply posting a few stories of people working long hours isn't saying much...you could write a similar story for almost every industry, that's how our world currently turns (for better or worse)

Seems your ignorance of the journalistic process is the problem, not his reporting of these issues.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
Can't wait for the glowing Cyberpunk reviews from GameInformer!!!

Seriously though, shit is a joke and supporting crunch in the most profitable entertainment industry is insane and selfish. Also, let's not forget:

0algt2biozu41.png
 

Deleted member 22750

Oct 28, 2017
13,267
User Banned (3 Days): Whataboutism; History of Inflammatory Drive-By Posting
We can get journalists to cover crunch but nothing on slave labor. The Uighurs need help badly.
 

Minthara

Freelance Market Director
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
7,892
Montreal
I don't care if they opted into this or decided to work extra hours. I got a problem with it the moment it becomes mandatory.

Thats the problem with the video game industry. The second you opt in to it, every member of the team under you and every other team that works with you is being opted in as well.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961

I took a look at her Twitter, she has a lot of tweets where she is rightly calling out the misogynistic harassment she receives from chuds on the Internet. You'd think that would make someone think twice about...acting like this to another person in the industry. Like seriously, talking about his name as if that means something? That's schoolyard bullying shit. You are both supposed to be professional adults in this industry, you do not say something like this about someone else.

Jason has a habit of being petty on social media as well (the Schindler's List comparison debacle comes to mind), but she was directly attacking his investigative reporting and he responded to the criticism by providing further evidence and context without naming her specifically. That's how one should respond to something like this, not whatever the hell this is.
 

Voke

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,336
For a forum full of boomers I'm honestly surprised that some people don't realize workers work big OT hours to keep their jobs.... this isn't the only industry guys
 

klastical

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,712
"optional crunch" is not real, folks.

Sure, in the most definition-focused way I suppose you don't have to crunch. But the same could be said for mandatory crunch - you could just quit.

Video game studios are notorious for churn and sucking them in and spitting them out. Turn down "optional crunch" and enjoy being first on the chopping block. Enjoy hearing snide commentary about how your "heart wasn't in it" or "the real believers stayed."

Optional crunch = crunch.

Can someone explain the difference to me between crunch and overtime. I know that most devs don't get paid for overtime but in this case they did so I want to remove that from the equation.

I work in a production based environment in america and we inevitably have overtime when we fail to meet demands. The overtime is generally offered as an option before it becomes mandatory. Nobody thinks your a bad employee if you don't do option overtime. Its not used to determine who to fire next. Sometimes optional overtime lasts for MONTHS before my company finally pulls the trigger and demands that we work a six day work week. Sometimes it's only for a month, sometimes it's for two or three. Would this be considered crunch?

I'm genuinely asking and I'm not trying to defend shitty work practices. Its just what im used to and I want to know if others think its crazy.
 

F4r0_Atak

Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,516
Home
I mean, if you typically ask someone:

A) delay a project, continue to get paid, see your families

Or

B) work extra long hours for no personal reward

It seems like they'd typically choose A
That's something we don't know about and may as well be untrue. From my experience, it has proven to be untrue so far. Also, delaying a project doesn't change the quantity of work nor does it actually remove the possibility of doing crunch later on. Crunch can last a week or two like it can last a few months depending on what needs to be implemented in the game and what needs to be fixed. Also, what people seem to not know nor understand is that crunch is mostly used to fixed bugs encountered by FQA/LQA testers. There is a reason why some of the most polished games tend to also be the ones with the most crunch. Don't forget that hundreds if not thousands of bugs can be found each month and these can take a lot of time to fix. One bug can take a day like it can several months to fix.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,717
People really are booty-bothered by the fact that Jason refuse to go back and forth on social media with zealots.

You want Jason time? Have a story for him to cover.

Also crunch defending is pathetic.
 

GameAddict411

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,510
This Liana person is way to defense over this. So it's ironic that she is implying that Jason has some agenda.
 

Ryo Hazuki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,470
When reporting on crunch is labelled an agenda you've entered dumb fuck levels where you're trying to justify something that can leave an everlasting mental impact on someone - just for a video game.

It would be better if people outright said they don't care about the lives of devs as long as they can play in a shiny city before christmas, rather than this faux "it's just overtime" argument.
 

Surakian

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
10,809
Well if they WANTED to crunch, then it's not a problem at all *rolls eyes*

I don't think OT is bad at all, especially when the employee makes the choice to work it and they get compensated for it, but peer pressure exists. If a few people are doing it, then it becomes expected that everybody does it, and then the expectation is that they do it all of the time and that is how crunch culture grows.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,498
Can someone explain the difference to me between crunch and overtime. I know that most devs don't get paid for overtime but in this case they did so I want to remove that from the equation.

I work in a production based environment in america and we inevitably have overtime when we fail to meet demands. The overtime is generally offered as an option before it becomes mandatory. Nobody thinks your a bad employee if you don't do option overtime. Its not used to determine who to fire next. Sometimes optional overtime lasts for MONTHS before my company finally pulls the trigger and demands that we work a six day work week. Sometimes it's only for a month, sometimes it's for two or three. Would this be considered crunch?

I'm genuinely asking and I'm not trying to defend shitty work practices. Its just what im used to and I want to know if others think its crazy.

Overtime is usually paid, no? Unless stated in a contract. Crunch often isn't paid but still expected over long periods of time, even for full time employees. Sure you may get a nice bonus at the end of the financial year but that's not good enough, especially when the management teams that enable it and do the least work get the fattest checks.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
For a forum full of boomers I'm honestly surprised that some people don't realize workers work big OT hours to keep their jobs.... this isn't the only industry guys

Nice whataboutism, but we all know capitalism sucks as a whole. This is also a video game forum, where topics about video games are discussed. If you are that surprised then you haven't been around long. If you'd like to make a thread on the overtime crunch of the food service industry, EtcetEra is that way -->

If you are required to work overtime just to keep your job, then that is a bad thing.
 
Feb 23, 2019
1,426
Thanatos has made several good posts in this thread alone how "optional" crunch is and what implication is can have on your carreer.
You can also look at ANY industry that is doing something creative, something that can be a passion project. You have to stop those with strict labour laws, to protect everyone else.

I'm not defending chronic crunch...60-80+ hour weeks for years. Obviously that's not a healthy work culture, but it's also not unheard of. Doctors, lawyers, bankers, engineers...many of them work hours like this. Not all though. An investment banker is going to put in 100+ hour weeks, a biglawyer at a top firm will be required to put in 60-70+. A high performing neurosurgeon may put in just as much...these people are all free to leave those professions if they don't like it, and many do - attrition is incredibly high. But there's a reason why they have to work so long and it comes down to extremely specialized knowledge and relationships and work that is not easily divisible.

I also don't think that working over 40 for extended periods of time is bad or a failing of management. Creative processes are less defined and more chaotic by nature.
 

jesterkap2

Member
Oct 28, 2017
537
We can get journalists to cover crunch but nothing on slave labor. The Uighurs need help badly.
I get what you're going for here, but two things can be bad at the same time. No need for whataboutism. The journalist in question covers video games and developers and that's his expertise. I do feel like the plight of Uighurs has been in the news and is a serious problem but doesn't need to stop all conversation about workplace labor issues.
 
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