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Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,093
Yes she was targeted by Westeros rulers. Her targeting the throne seat is still more of a selfish motivation than altruism. She pursues it partly out of revenge. And her ruling methods are that of a dictatorship. Join her or be burned for the indigenous of Westeros. And her hesitance to allow the North its freedom as well.
Is the situation with the Lannister army and the Tarlys a fair rule to hold over what Dany intends to do? There is a very particular reason why those demands were given to that particular group, and it has everything to do with what they did to the Tyrells, Highgarden and the Reach. Besides that one instance, Dany hasn't made any such demands to bend the knee or die to anyone else. Even to Jon it was bend the knee if you want my help, not bend the knee or I'd kill you.

Also there is a practical reason why she can't just agree to grant the North independence, well two actually. The first being that if she grants the North independence, than there's really no reason why any of the other realms shouldn't be able to demand their independence as well. The second reason is that for all intents and purposes Sansa in not the one who is in charge of the North, it is Jon. First as King and now as Lord Paramount, and Jon has already sworn his loyalty and support to Dany. Sansa's questioning and demands are quite frankly out of line, especially considering why Dany is in the North in the first place.

Also you keep mentioning that dany rules like a dictator. Dany really hasn't had an opportunity to rule. Mereen turned into a shit show soon after she stays to help run it (this is after she finds out that the council she put in place in Astopor has been overthrown by the slave masters).
 

The Artisan

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,132
Great post, and I agree with most of what you said, but I don't know that I agree that The Wall is definitely 100% going to repel the army of the dead if they never get a dragon (through Jon's bumbling fucking idiocy of a plan, which may be the single worst plan anyone on the show has ever had; how the fuck did he plan to isolate a single wight in an army of tens of thousands? It's not like they step away to take a piss. It's just mind-boggling that anyone went along with it). If that were the case, why bother manning The Wall at all? If it's solely to keep the Wildlings on their side, then already the idea that "all men must stand against the army of the dead" is shattered because you've effectively said "except for y'all, we don't care if you die and bolster his numbers, we've got this huge fuck-off wall to protect us." They man The Wall because there is an expectation that whatever magic is imbued in The Wall is not going to be enough to prevent the armies of the dead from eventually penetrating it.

Now, again, Jon's stupid fucking plan accelerates everything by giving the Night King a really easy path through The Wall. No doubt they would have been better off having not done that. But the Night King, despite spinning his wheels for fucking decades taking Craster's kids and just sort of staring at The Wall wistfully like "one of these days," has also accelerated his plans through the attack on Hardhome. That, plus all the Wildling corpses he keeps stumbling across, bolsters his strength to the point where he's going to attempt to breach The Wall irrelevant of whether he has a dragon. And we keep hearing that the Night's Watch doesn't have the men to repel him, even with this so-called "Wall Magic" that's supposed to keep him out. So even if he doesn't get a dragon, there's a solid chance he takes Eastwatch regardless. And it's not like you can weaken his army by lessening the number of soldiers he has; after a battle, he just resurrects everyone, plus the dead on the other side. So, effectively, every single battle his army gets more formidable.

So you have to accept that he's going to breach The Wall and start moving south, killing dudes and building his army; this has been the internal logic of the show since episode 1. Even barring Jon gifting him a dragon, this was inevitable. If the characters do nothing, as you claim, then the Night King takes over castle after castle, killing everyone and building his army until they are an unstoppable force. They pretty much already were; they took out the Dothraki instantaneously, as well as the Unsullied, and pretty much killed everyone in the castle outside of the people with plot armor so thick it stretches across the narrow sea. If the characters do nothing, instead focusing on war with Cersei and King's Landing, they're still going to have to face the army of the dead, except it will be 200,000+ strong and they'll have very few soldiers left due to their war for the Iron Throne. They couldn't just ignore the issue. Cersei has more of an excuse because she's over a thousand miles away while the North is the first thing that's going to be hit geographically. But the idea that "just don't worry about it" is somehow a valid response to the threat that the Night King represents doesn't make any sense whatsoever. They have to respond in some way or the North gets flattened, and the rest of Westeros follows with it.

Now, that being said, I think that you're absolutely correct in the rest of your assessment that the way the show handled the particulars ultimately made most of the other things we've seen pointless. It does ultimately subvert the narrative because the South had to offer nothing and they won't even believe the threat was ever real, the North lost most of its fighters while Cersei bolstered her strength, and the threat was defeated in a silly manner. But the North were sort of fucked here regardless. It echoes the Wildlings asking the Night's Watch for help and being told to fuck off; they aren't here yet, not our problem. Which actually seems to be a recurring theme in the show; "why the fuck should we help you... oh shit, please help us!" Cersei's biggest win here is a matter of geography more than anything (that and treachery, but we're used to that).
This is a good post, but I'd just like to piggyback off of it and correct you in that this stupidass suicide mission was Tyrion's idea, not Jon's. But Jon is also a stupidass for doing it.

Speaking of Tyrion, I think he's become an overrated character. Back when he was in Essos he had the awful idea of bringing slavery back and that backfired. I don't even remember Daenerys ever even reacting to Tyrion's failure there, but the next episode or two she makes him her Hand.

Then he failed at least 3 times last season with the battle tactics, then there's the suicide mission (someone who never has seen a zombie before is the one who comes up with the plan and the person in the room who has fucked with zombies the most just thinks it'll work), then it was believing Cersei about Lannister reinforcements.

Dany throws that in his face and scolds him on it and he deserves it. He does NOT deserve to be her Hand in my opinion, I like that Jorah vouched for him but he should instead just be allowed to rule Casterly Rock or something. Being a Hand to the dragon queen isn't something he should be a part of anymore
 

John Harker

Knows things...
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,360
Santa Destroy
If you watch the show and think the show is about a book series, then you're already coming from a place that makes it impossible to align with certain people on.
No matter how long your post about it gets.
 

Mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
This is a good post, but I'd just like to piggyback off of it and correct you in that this stupidass suicide mission was Tyrion's idea, not Jon's. But Jon is also a stupidass for doing it.

Speaking of Tyrion, I think he's become an overrated character. Back when he was in Essos he had the awful idea of bringing slavery back and that backfired. I don't even remember Daenerys ever even reacting to Tyrion's failure there, but the next episode or two she makes him her Hand.

Then he failed at least 3 times last season with the battle tactics, then there's the suicide mission (someone who never has seen a zombie before is the one who comes up with the plan and the person in the room who has fucked with zombies the most just thinks it'll work), then it was believing Cersei about Lannister reinforcements.

Dany throws that in his face and scolds him on it and he deserves it. He does NOT deserve to be her Hand in my opinion, I like that Jorah vouched for him but he should instead just be allowed to rule Casterly Rock or something. Being a Hand to the dragon queen isn't something he should be a part of anymore
Tyrion used to be a lot more interesting.
 

Voytek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,811
Is the smirking more impressive than the rest of the nonsense they gave him? Dude is essentially an Ice god. Oh I forgot he can control the weather too and bring blizzards to the front out of nowhere in mere seconds.

This would be like Sauron making the ring wearers uncontrollable and far stronger than him. I hate the NK and his bullshit. He's just GoT's version of the terminator. I'm pretty sure he too smirked once or twice while carrying out his programming to kill Sarah. Was the terminator not a mindless killing machine in the first film?

I ain't trying to say that the NK is a good character. In fact I think he's awful. I'm just saying he's not been shown to be mindless. How deep it actually goes we don't know. Don't forget it's been shown that he (or through his command) had some sorta deal or understanding with Craster. If he were a mindless killing machine he would have simply had Craster killed on the spot but no there was an understanding there that keeping Craster around was beneficial.
 

Jiggy

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,287
wherever
There's a reason why Preston Jacobs has a running joke about Tyrion being "the most moral man in the universe". They whitewashed the fuck out of him.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,658
Is the situation with the Lannister army and the Tarlys a fair rule to hold over what Dany intends to do? There is a very particular reason why those demands were given to that particular group, and it has everything to do with what they did to the Tyrells, Highgarden and the Reach. Besides that one instance, Dany hasn't made any such demands to bend the knee or die to anyone else. Even to Jon it was bend the knee if you want my help, not bend the knee or I'd kill you.

Also there is a practical reason why she can't just agree to grant the North independence, well two actually. The first being that if she grants the North independence, than there's really no reason why any of the other realms shouldn't be able to demand their independence as well. The second reason is that for all intents and purposes Sansa in not the one who is in charge of the North, it is Jon. First as King and now as Lord Paramount, and Jon has already sworn his loyalty and support to Dany. Sansa's questioning and demands are quite frankly out of line, especially considering why Dany is in the North in the first place.

Also you keep mentioning that dany rules like a dictator. Dany really hasn't had an opportunity to rule. Mereen turned into a shit show soon after she stays to help run it (this is after she finds out that the council she put in place in Astopor has been overthrown by the slave masters).
She has a tendency to be ruthless and demands allegiance. That's what the burning of the Tarleys is portraying. That being said, she has shown she is a fast learner and capable of compassion. The whole schtick about her attempt for the throne is we don't know which side she will shown and she has the ability to raze anything at her whim. Fear is very much something she uses to force people into her command. Them being former enemy soldiers doesn't affect that. She couldn't really care less about the Dornish and the Tyrells, they both got axed and she hasn't shed a tear. She would have demanded their allegiance eventually.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
A solid 8/10, my opinion raised on rewatch.

I have my qualms with the writing choices of the show. But Sapochnik and Djawadi really did outstanding work.
Yeah I'm about in the same boat, strong seven or 8. Wasn't on the level of the best battle episodes, even less on the level of the best episodes. But still quite impressive to look at, hopefully more so with bluray or better stream or just watching the episode at night rather than sunny morning. I loved the choice for the final blow, even though the villain itself was underdeveloped during the show imo. So the resolution fell bit flat and was somewhat anticlimatic because of it, I was left expecting something more even while pumpin my fist for Arya. The score was indeed excellent, don't think I've complimented it yet. The composition for the Night King was as haunting as it was beautiful and used really well to compliment the glorious cinematography. Some of those battle tactics were braindead, though making them better wouldn't change the conclusion. Doesn't matter in the bigger picture for me, but at the moment it made me roll my eyes. Atleast we got impressive visual and threatening atmosphere from those fires going out.

Edit: Speaking of the score for the show, Reigns: Game of Thrones -game uses Light of the Seven so I've been hearing it a lot lately. I especially love the vocal part starting 4.45
 
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Ziocyte

Member
Oct 27, 2017
145
Can we just make this the last post of the thread and close it? Because nothing else needs to be said.

That is just silly. There are some good points raised in that post (the idea that in the current standing of the show, the rest of Westeros had to bare none of this burden nor will never know the real threat that was faced in the North), some less well thought out sections (the part that "nothing" mattered that any of the characters did prior to this episode because of the episode's outcome). All that said, the discussion as a whole seems to be moving along pretty nicely save for a few deeply entrenched posters on both sides of the love it/hate it debate. There is a lot more room for discussion seeing as this is an OT for the entire season that we are only half way through.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,742
This is a good post, but I'd just like to piggyback off of it and correct you in that this stupidass suicide mission was Tyrion's idea, not Jon's. But Jon is also a stupidass for doing it.

Speaking of Tyrion, I think he's become an overrated character. Back when he was in Essos he had the awful idea of bringing slavery back and that backfired. I don't even remember Daenerys ever even reacting to Tyrion's failure there, but the next episode or two she makes him her Hand.

Then he failed at least 3 times last season with the battle tactics, then there's the suicide mission (someone who never has seen a zombie before is the one who comes up with the plan and the person in the room who has fucked with zombies the most just thinks it'll work), then it was believing Cersei about Lannister reinforcements.

Dany throws that in his face and scolds him on it and he deserves it. He does NOT deserve to be her Hand in my opinion, I like that Jorah vouched for him but he should instead just be allowed to rule Casterly Rock or something. Being a Hand to the dragon queen isn't something he should be a part of anymore

Tyrion is probably the number-one recipient of the Idiot Ball these past couple of seasons. If Tyrion's intellect was still at the level it was at in the GRRM seasons, I imagine the North/Targ coalition would've been able to wipe out all of their threats with no issue. It feels like they basically just needed to nerf him in order to nerf Dany and her army, which is a shame.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,900
Portland, OR
This is a good post, but I'd just like to piggyback off of it and correct you in that this stupidass suicide mission was Tyrion's idea, not Jon's. But Jon is also a stupidass for doing it.

Speaking of Tyrion, I think he's become an overrated character. Back when he was in Essos he had the awful idea of bringing slavery back and that backfired. I don't even remember Daenerys ever even reacting to Tyrion's failure there, but the next episode or two she makes him her Hand.

Then he failed at least 3 times last season with the battle tactics, then there's the suicide mission (someone who never has seen a zombie before is the one who comes up with the plan and the person in the room who has fucked with zombies the most just thinks it'll work), then it was believing Cersei about Lannister reinforcements.

Dany throws that in his face and scolds him on it and he deserves it. He does NOT deserve to be her Hand in my opinion, I like that Jorah vouched for him but he should instead just be allowed to rule Casterly Rock or something. Being a Hand to the dragon queen isn't something he should be a part of anymore
By Odin's beard, you're right. Tyrion has come up with some really stupid shit in the last few years. Why do people on the show keep talking about how smart he is when he just comes up with stupid idea after stupid idea? He's probably the genius who said "let's take our cavalry and stick them out in front of everything and then just send them in blind with absolutely no support whatsoever." His arc has been incredibly disappointing since the show left the books behind.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,093
She has a tendency to be ruthless and demands allegiance. That's what the burning of the Tarleys is portraying. That being said, she has shown she is a fast learner and capable of compassion. The whole schtick about her attempt for the throne is we don't know which side she will shown and she has the ability to raze anything at her whim. Fear is very much something she uses to force people into her command. Them being former enemy soldiers doesn't affect that. She couldn't really care less about the Dornish and the Tyrells, they both got axed and she hasn't shed a tear. She would have demanded their allegiance eventually.
That's a fair assessment for the most part. The last bit I still don't think is accurate. The show has barely shown us her grieving over Visarion, so I think it's more of us just not being shown her reactions to losing her allies. Also, without those allies, Dany doesn't get to Westeros. So her arrival is always tied to them allying with her. So I don't think the two can be separated from one another.
 

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,576
He used to be my favorite character. But he stopped being great once he left Kings Landing. In fact, a lot of the political intrigue of the show just disappeared as soon as Tywin died.
Not terribly surprising. Tyrion is largely interesting because of how he is treated in and deals with the world of his upbringing, namely the elites of Westeros. And he is at his best in King's Landing where he is directly dealing with the toxic relationships he has with his sister and father. It doesn't hurt that we get to see him outsmart characters we dislike often during that time, and who doesn't love that. I still maintain that outside of Ned's time in King's Landing, Tyrion's trial is the best story in the series.

A lot of that goes away when he travels to Essos. In the show and books.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
He used to be my favorite character. But he stopped being great once he left Kings Landing. In fact, a lot of the political intrigue of the show just disappeared as soon as Tywin died.
Tywin dying was one of the most disappointing things for me in the show. Excellent character, excellently portrayed by Dance.
 

The Artisan

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,132
Tyrion is probably the number-one recipient of the Idiot Ball these past couple of seasons. If Tyrion's intellect was still at the level it was at in the GRRM seasons, I imagine the North/Targ coalition would've been able to wipe out all of their threats with no issue. It feels like they basically just needed to nerf him in order to nerf Dany and her army, which is a shame.
i didn't read the books, so at what point did Tyrion's character start to become a shell of his former self? I started to be disinterested with him around season 5. Basically when he became a slave for a day with Jorah
By Odin's beard, you're right. Tyrion has come up with some really stupid shit in the last few years. Why do people on the show keep talking about how smart he is when he just comes up with stupid idea after stupid idea? He's probably the genius who said "let's take our cavalry and stick them out in front of everything and then just send them in blind with absolutely no support whatsoever." His arc has been incredibly disappointing since the show left the books behind.
his not being as clever as everyone thought is a trope that's been thrown around the past few seasons almost as much the trope of Jon's height. Olenna implies Tyrion ain't as clever as he thinks he is, Dany calls him out on planning for the future instead of the past, then this season calls him out again, and Sansa also says she used to think he was the smartest.

Maybe this is how he is meant to be in the books too, I don't know.
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,059
If you watch the show and think the show is about a book series, then you're already coming from a place that makes it impossible to align with certain people on.
No matter how long your post about it gets.

It's certainly not "about" a book series. It does adapt a story that started as one, and the writers have shown again and again from the moment they left the books behind that they never really understood the story they were telling.

Anyone who actually goes back and compares how people acted and the way events unfolded in the first seasons with how it has been in the later seasons should notice a pretty significant difference, at least if you're capable of looking beyond the undeniably awesome visuals.

As for Tyrion not being clever anymore, it's obvious that the writers don't know how to write a clever story anymore, and are therefore unable to show him doing anything that is actually intelligent. So they simply resort to having other characters refer to his immense intellect rather than showing it off.
 

Sinder

Banned
Jul 24, 2018
7,576
If you watch the show and think the show is about a book series, then you're already coming from a place that makes it impossible to align with certain people on.
No matter how long your post about it gets.

This entire thread is a series of rants about what people wanted the show to be rather than talking about it on its own merits and goals. There's no point in engaging with the thread if you like the show. The third poll option, threadmarking an angry essay about it, and no threadmarks for numerous counter arguments makes it pretty obvious where this place aligns.

Two threads would be ideal but just going to Reddit is even better.
 

Sub Boss

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
13,441
Was it ever explained why they made only one of those night kings that revives dead bodies and all die again after he is killed,? Because i guessed there would be more than one, at least three 🤔
 

sasnak

Member
Dec 4, 2018
443
This entire thread is a series of rants about what people wanted the show to be rather than talking about it on its own merits and goals. There's no point in engaging with the thread if you like the show. The third poll option, threadmarking an angry essay about it, and no threadmarks for numerous counter arguments makes it pretty obvious where this place aligns.

Two threads would be ideal but just going to Reddit is even better.
Alright then. See you later.
 

Sub Boss

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
13,441
It's certainly not "about" a book series. It does adapt a story that started as one, and the writers have shown again and again from the moment they left the books behind that they never really understood the story they were telling.

Anyone who actually goes back and compares how people acted and the way events unfolded in the first seasons with how it has been in the later seasons should notice a pretty significant difference, at least if you're capable of looking beyond the undeniably awesome visuals.

As for Tyrion not being clever anymore, it's obvious that the writers don't know how to write a clever story anymore, and are therefore unable to show him doing anything that is actually intelligent. So they simply resort to having other characters refer to his immense intellect rather than showing it off.
Yep, it feels like the characters are getting drained of their character now in the last seasons, to make up for night battles
 

DvergrBlod

Member
Oct 26, 2017
186
Arya tries same move to take out Mountain, but knife does nothing and Mountain pops Arya's head like water balloon.
 

The Artisan

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,132
If you watch the show and think the show is about a book series, then you're already coming from a place that makes it impossible to align with certain people on.
No matter how long your post about it gets.
D&D did not pull these characters out of thin air, they pulled it out of a book series. So by all accounts this show is about asoiaf
 

sasnak

Member
Dec 4, 2018
443
Since this show is all about fan service now, there's no doubt in my mind that Clegane Bowl will actually happen. We'll see if they can pull it off in a satisfying manor but I doubt it based off the past couple of seasons.
 

AstronaughtE

Member
Nov 26, 2017
10,218
This is a good post, but I'd just like to piggyback off of it and correct you in that this stupidass suicide mission was Tyrion's idea, not Jon's. But Jon is also a stupidass for doing it.

Speaking of Tyrion, I think he's become an overrated character. Back when he was in Essos he had the awful idea of bringing slavery back and that backfired. I don't even remember Daenerys ever even reacting to Tyrion's failure there, but the next episode or two she makes him her Hand.

Then he failed at least 3 times last season with the battle tactics, then there's the suicide mission (someone who never has seen a zombie before is the one who comes up with the plan and the person in the room who has fucked with zombies the most just thinks it'll work), then it was believing Cersei about Lannister reinforcements.

Dany throws that in his face and scolds him on it and he deserves it. He does NOT deserve to be her Hand in my opinion, I like that Jorah vouched for him but he should instead just be allowed to rule Casterly Rock or something. Being a Hand to the dragon queen isn't something he should be a part of anymore
Sam will be hand if there is a king of Westeros anymore.
 

louisacommie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,571
New Jersey
sweet robin after 3 years without his mother and 2 training the be good at sword combat and other things by a knight

he should be a very diffrent person when he reappears this season

he should also react to his step dad being killed by his cousin
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
Why the fuck would she do that? What did Robyn do to deserve to be murdered?
giphy.gif
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
Plot twist, Arya kills Jon, Dany and Cersei to get her boo Gendry on the iron throne. With her as queen.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,299
Who the fuck is Sweet Robin

EDIT: Oh, he's that weird kid from the Vale?

Serves me right for not doing a re-watch, i suppose.
 
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