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CrankyJay

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,318
I don't dislike the show nearly as much as people here seem to, but man. I miss the old Game of Thrones so much

This is where I'm at. With enough material back in the early seasons, the show's primary hook was a non-cliched storytelling experience, yet with just a general outline we're getting somewhat cliched and expected outcomes. Plus we are also getting character behaviors and motivations that betray what we think we know about them.
 

Deleted member 30544

User Requested Account Closure
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Nov 3, 2017
5,215
hopeful people one week ago:
I'll bet there will be a lot of explaining about the NK, Bran and the 3ER next week, I'm sure of it. This week was the spectacle, next week they'll give us story.
The whole White Walker thing isn't over yet.

people this week:
giphy.gif

That's me for sure, hate to admit.
 

Deleted member 49179

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Oct 30, 2018
4,140
I dunno about the specifics of the quote, but Aegon's little sister's dragon got taken down by a scorpion bolt directly through the eye. Presumably, there were other bolts -- not just there in that battle but in the two years Aegon and his other sister spent destroying Dorne as revenge -- and none of them ever took down a dragon.

I thought the whole Scorpio bolt system had been invented by Qyburn during season 7?
 

Chitown B

Member
Nov 15, 2017
9,593
The underlying theme since episode 1 has been that humans needed to put their petty politics aside to unite against the ultimate force that might destroy humankind as we know it.

maybe in your own mind. But to the general public who hasn't read the books, it's been "sex, and power struggles, and oh there's an ice zombie occasionally"
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,091
The thing that rubs me so wrong about Mad Queen Dany is how awful the setup has been. This has been a book theory for a while, never one I subscribed to, but it had some support. But, what makes Dany's Mad Queen turn here so nonsensical is that nothing she has done suggests she is "losing it." Varys and Tyrion are somehow super concerned about the citizens of Kings Landing as if this is there first siege. And they beg Daenerys not to bring forth Fire & Blood. Yet, they can offer no alternatives on how to beat Cersei. They act like her burning the city is some instant-win, IT'S NOT. After Rhaegal's death they should understand now that even if Dany decides to burn Cersei out, she might still lose the battle. Euron's magical ballistas can take out Dany and her last dragon. And, the remainder of Dany's forces, including the Northmen, are a fraction of what they once were.

Daenerys throwing everything against Cersei is no guarantee of success. Yet, you have Varys and Tyrion hem hawing over a legitimate war tactic, their only tactic, if they hope to survive. And that somehow makes Dany a monstrous leader.

This is why D&D can't write politics, they don't understand shit. It's why they should'v stuck to NK End Boss.
We live in a world where modern western militaries factor acceptable civilian casualties in their wars against dictators and terrorists. We live in a world where it was deemed acceptable to nuke whole cities in a bid to save more lives and cause the surrender of horrible regimes. Yet I'm supposed to accept that in a medieval world, civilan casulaties of any kind are unacceptable in any effort aimed to root out a murderous despot who would use the people as human shields. So let's say Varys gets his wish and Dany is murdered in her sleep. What army does Jon have that can take KL, and how does that army do it without shedding blood? Tyrion advising anything other than surgically striking the Red Keep back in Season 7, has led to the deaths of thousands and perhaps even more by the end. So much for saving lives.
 

Deleted member 1635

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Oct 25, 2017
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Plus we are also getting character behaviors and motivations that betray what we think we know about them.

And it sucks. I will never join the camp who just shrug and say "logic should never stop the plot from moving forward." There's always a way to make a plot point work without sacrificing all of the logic, character, and world building you've done up until this point. Those are the only things that make people care about the stakes in your show!
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Two things that bothered me in terms of the plot:

1. I don't understand how no one and Dany/dragons didn't see Euron's fleet out in the open, even to the point of being within striking distance in broad daylight over the sea
2. Why weren't they immediately murdered by Cersei, and why did they think they wouldn't be murdered by approaching her?
 

Detail

Member
Dec 30, 2018
2,946
Are there really leaks out there for the ending? If so I kind of want to read them because so far this season has just left me massively dissapointed.

This episode was just so ridiculous, so many apparent flaws and oversights.

It feels like they are rushing to the finish line and just throwing stuff at a wall hoping it sticks, but yeah, it makes no sense.

Like why would Cersei not just wipe them all out at the end? They have such a great shot with those arrows apparently that the Dragon wouldn't stand a chance.

None of it makes sense.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,653
hopeful people one week ago:
I'll bet there will be a lot of explaining about the NK, Bran and the 3ER next week, I'm sure of it. This week was the spectacle, next week they'll give us story.
The whole White Walker thing isn't over yet.

people this week:
giphy.gif

I honestly can't believe there were people that thought that. It's all about Cersei being the final boss now. The Bran/WW chapter is closed for good.
 
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Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,412
And it sucks. I will never join the camp who just shrug and say "logic should never stop the plot from moving forward." There's always a way to make a plot point work without sacrificing all of the logic, character, and world building you've done up until this point. Those are the only things that make people care about the stakes in your show!

But when you have a large number of plot strings to still wrap up with a small amount of episodes, logic will inevitably be thrown out of the window to make that happen. We were never going to get a satisfying, logical conclusion with the episode count they settled on for this final season.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
Also, does Bronn have an invisibility cloak?
IDK but he sure does have a car at the very least. He left KL and made it to Winterfell fast enough and Cersei still isn't showing

I dunno about the specifics of the quote, but Aegon's little sister's dragon got taken down by a scorpion bolt directly through the eye. Presumably, there were other bolts -- not just there in that battle but in the two years Aegon and his other sister spent destroying Dorne as revenge -- and none of them ever took down a dragon.
Yes, but that quote is still extrapolating a bit too much, especially the "nearly invulnerable" part.

Arya kills Cersei, takes her face, Jaime kills Arya thinking it's Cersei.
oh no
 

Blue Ninja

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,756
Belgium
Yeah, it's just an objective fact that the show's quality took a deep dive the moment they exhausted their last well of book-inspired material, i.e. after season 6. Season 5 wasn't all that hot either, but that's because GRRM isn't perfect either :lol
 

Doomsayer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,621
Yeah, it's just an objective fact that the show's quality took a deep dive the moment they exhausted their last well of book-inspired material, i.e. after season 6. Season 5 wasn't all that hot either, but that's because GRRM isn't perfect either :lol

I still think, aside from Hardhome, season 5 is a fucking mess and the worst season so far.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Opposing sides meeting before battle in medieval times is something normal. Just like when Jon, Sansa, Davos, Tormund, Lyanna met Ramsay & Co before the botb.
Yeah I get that but Cersei doesn't play by any rules nor does she have a shred of honor. We're dealing with the one who tore up Ned's note containing final orders from the king himself.

If she would have killed them, then and there, in what way would that be a mistake for her? She doesn't care how her people/others see it, she just wants to win.
 

Deleted member 3897

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Oct 25, 2017
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Yeah I get that but Cersei doesn't play by any rules nor does she have a shred of honor. We're dealing with the one who tore up Ned's note containing final orders from the king himself.

If she would have killed them, then and there, in what way would that be a mistake for her? She doesn't care how her people/others see it, she just wants to win.

Well she decided not to.
 

Deleted member 1635

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But when you have a large number of plot strings to still wrap up with a small amount of episodes, logic will inevitably be thrown out of the window to make that happen. We were never going to get a satisfying, logical conclusion with the episode count they settled on for this final season.

Maybe not completely satisfying, but they could have still wrote situations that wrap everything up and didn't defy logic and all of the character building up until now. Rhaegal dying to a scorpion is fine on paper. An attempt at parley and demanding surrender one last time is fine on paper. They just wrote in a way that threw everything out the window for some cool camera shots, I guess. It sucks.
 

Chitown B

Member
Nov 15, 2017
9,593
I don't dislike the show nearly as much as people here seem to, but man. I miss the old Game of Thrones so much

The first season was perfect. But rose colored glasses seem prevalent here. During the inital airing, the Dany story was so tedious with all the slave bullshit and locking up the dragons in the dungeon so we didn't even get to see them. On rewatch it's easier to forgive the dull parts because it's a binge, but I remember how bored I got with the show for awhile.
 

Robdraggoo

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Oct 25, 2017
2,455
Other than blowing up the Sept. And let's face it it, those religious zealots had it coming. Is cersai I such a bad queen? I mean the people aren't exactly suffering from what there shown and rhey seem to like her. I say let her have it. There are still plenty of slaves in Essos to save.
 

ContraWars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,517
Canada
Arya should walk in wearing Joffrey's face to confront Cersei. Switch to Tommen and Myrcella. Fuck her mind right up. Scrooge the bitch like it's a Christmas Carol. Face God sacrifices be damned. Have them all fight the mountain while Cersei can't watch without losing her mind. Arya dancing around in disguise, taunting Cersei with a few moonwalks thrown in. We are here to do stupid things that make no sense anyway.


I need to cancel my HBO subscription.
 

Deleted member 1635

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Opposing sides meeting before battle in medieval times is something normal. Just like when Jon, Sansa, Davos, Tormund, Lyanna met Ramsay & Co before the botb.

Yes, meeting before a battle might be normal, but like that? After establishing the physics-defying nature of the ballistae? After knowing Cersei doesn't give a shit about honoring anything and completely hates her brother?

A parley scene could have been done without being mind-numbingly ridiculous.
 

KarmaCow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,154
Other than blowing up the Sept. And let's face it it, those religious zealots had it coming. Is cersai I such a bad queen? I mean the people aren't exactly suffering from what there shown and rhey seem to like her.

I'm "ironically" onboard with Cersei staying leader considering the other options.

Though seriously, if this show ends with someone sitting on the throne and another monarchy then burn the entire series to the ground.
 

CopperPuppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,636
Um, no. It was never suggested that the dying of the pre-Dany dragons would have any bearing on how big hers would get. Jorah straight up says that given food and freedom that they never stop growing, so they could very well approach the size of Aegon's three. Tyrion (and probably one or two others I can't recall) talk about their scales as well.

It's heavily implied that they're damned near invincible when healthy and grown.
This.

The entire point of the dragons is that they are virtually unstoppable, and (1) whether it's worth it to use such a wantonly destructive weapon to secure the throne in the first place and, (2) if Daenerys does use them, whether she is just like the other conquerors/tyrants she despises.

In the books, once she reaches Westeros, she ain't losing. But it's likely that the destruction caused by the dragons will make her victory a meaningless one. That's going to be her story.
 

Chitown B

Member
Nov 15, 2017
9,593
threat of the night king and neverending night (death for all).

I'm confused about these two things together. Because there has been a winter from the past mentioned. It was awful and people died because they weren't stocked up enough. But there was no Night King or wights involved. It's a separate thing. Winters there are just really bad but they are rare - as far as I can tell.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,916
I'm still so mad about the showrunners pulling out conflicts from their asses.
Northern people be like "I don't know this Queen", "she's not one of ours"...like stfu dum dums!
You called for help and she answered. She and her squad were total strangers to you, yet they willingly fought and died in the darkest hours together with you. She rode a friggin dragon, was the first to rush to the aids of footsoldiers and generally was almost as much of a badass as Jon. That's the kind of queen she is.
She's not even my favourite character in the show, but she got a lot of undeserved shade thrown at her. And that was the better half of this episode. Dear god.
 

Deleted member 1635

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The first season was perfect. But rose colored glasses seem prevalent here. During the inital airing, the Dany story was so tedious with all the slave bullshit and locking up the dragons in the dungeon so we didn't even get to see them. On rewatch it's easier to forgive the dull parts because it's a binge, but I remember how bored I got with the show for awhile.

Yeah, Dany's story while she languished in Essos has always been the worst part of both the books and the show.
 

Deleted member 46493

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During the inital airing, the Dany story was so tedious with all the slave bullshit and locking up the dragons in the dungeon so we didn't even get to see them. On rewatch it's easier to forgive the dull parts because it's a binge, but I remember how bored I got with the show for awhile.
Yeah, the Mereen saga was hated on every week outside of the Sons of the Harpy battle/attacks.
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
Yeah, it's just an objective fact that the show's quality took a deep dive the moment they exhausted their last well of book-inspired material, i.e. after season 6. Season 5 wasn't all that hot either, but that's because GRRM isn't perfect either :lol
I disagree that the book-inspired material has anything to do with any quality dive. The quality dived because they decided they really wanted to hurry the show to its conclusion. Watch earlier seasons, there are plenty of good character-building or scene-setting or traveling moments that weren't related to anything that happened in the books. For some reason the showrunners decided they wanted to hurry up and get it done with, get to "the good parts" rather than taking their time to tell the story. Even HBO commented that they'd be fine with more episodes.
 

EN1GMA

Avenger
Nov 7, 2017
3,270
Cersei has a massive fleet, Kings Landing is not that far from Dragonstone, Dany has the advantage from the sky, Dany goes in blind with her Dragons.

Did they really think that Dragonstone would be free for them to waltz into? The place has been empty for a good while now.
 

Deleted member 49179

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Oct 30, 2018
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Yeah... that episode was rough, man

Also is that Starbucks cup in the scene real? Did the DP really not spot that?

The cup thing is weird. I don't know anything about their specific postprod workflow, but even if the shots with the cup were the only ones usable, things like that are usually very quick and easy to erase. Especially since the shots are so short.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
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Oct 24, 2017
34,308
Yeah, it's just an objective fact that the show's quality took a deep dive the moment they exhausted their last well of book-inspired material, i.e. after season 6. Season 5 wasn't all that hot either, but that's because GRRM isn't perfect either :lol
Most of S5 is not book material. The worst parts sure aren't anyhow.
 
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