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jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
This is ridiculous. The Vale knows her and the Lady of Arryn was her family.
Eddard Stark was raised in the Vale. Ofcourse she'd trust them, tf?

The Starks would sooner trust House Arryn and their bannermen before the Targaryens, 100%.
Lady of Arryn tried throwing her through the fucking window of a cliff are you serious? And then was essentially ruled by the one person that caused her all of her pain in life.

So yes, something is ridiculous. And no it wasn't my counterpoint. If anything, Sansa had ten times more reason not to trust the vale than to trust someone she completely didnt know or have any prior knowledge or experience of.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Dany: *sees Jon selflessly standing up to death for 2 seasons to the point of literally dying and how people will follow him into the abyss no matter what*


Also Dany: man a show of force would show sure this Jon guy not to mess with me!
 

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
52,532
I'm not sure if I understand what you mean here, but I was not saying that the things leading to this moment were undefined or arbitrary. I was saying that they are acting together, rather than as separate challenges dany could overcome one by one.

But the things she's experiencing now are things she's experienced before. She's experienced losing a child, losing friends and loved ones, and being opposed wholeheartedly by the people she's trying to save. And it has never once driven her to do anything close to what she did here.

You can't say the collective caused this when she stood firm against the same collective to this point. Again, had she done something more gradual as a turn as opposed to completely flipping her moral compass in one moment, it would make more sense. The level of change she made was too drastic for a "snap" moment.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,669
She literally said she doesn't want to be queen of the ashes
See below.
She had all 7 kingdoms except the city as of last night.

She now doesn't have the city and lost all of her support from people who aren't the dothraki or the unsullied.
Except she didn't; House Lannister defies her. Sansa denies her rule. And the north follows her because Jon follows her, not because they believe in her.

She wanted to avoid being queen of the ashes when she thought people would follow her out of love, but it was clear that never was going to happen when even one of her few remaining advisors betrayed her for Jon (something she feared and knew was destined to happen once his claim became known) so she chose to rule, as she has throughout the show, through fire and blood.
 

Felt

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,210
Nah this is entirely on D&D. They wrote themselves into a hole and have suffered dearly because of it.

Like I said, the last book was out in 2012. 7 years... Without this show we still don't know what happens to Stannis ffs. Who knows what the internal politics have been like getting this show to end.

Considering the amazing theatric quality of this episode I'm starting to change my opinion from the "hate on D&D" crowd.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
I agree with that. My point is they have been going without GRRM content for the last few seasons and would you really want them to drag it on doing all the work?

It's clear the dialogue has suffered and has been replaced with spectacle.

I'm not sure I want more episodes with the quality of 8.4.

For example, would you really want an episode 5 being about Dany's decline instead of just getting to the point like they did? If it came out of the books that's a yes from me but a no as it stands.

That's why I'm putting the blame on GRRM.

I don't think the dialogue is suffering, the pacing of the show which then requires characters to do stupid things to condense time basically is what's the root of everything.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,658
Well did any of them show up to her doorstep with dragons and armies and pledge to help fight for her home land in their darkest hour? Wouldn't she be a zombie now without that? Didn't she hide in the basement while Dany was on the fields fighting with a sword?

Is Sansa never going to trust any other royal kingdom ever again? Is the North's plan just to be in a perpetual state of war fare under Sansa forever? It's all kinda stupid.
She wanted the North's freedom. Dany wants all of Westeros.
 

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
52,532
See below.

Except she didn't; House Lannister defies her. Sansa denies her rule. And the north follows her because Jon follows her, not because they believe in her.

She wanted to avoid being queen of the ashes when she thought people would follow her out of love, but it was clear that never was going to happen when even one of her few remaining advisors betrayed her for Jon (something she feared and knew was destined to happen once his claim became known) so she chose to rule, as she has throughout the show, through fire and blood.

Her ruling through "fire and blood" has never once involved killing innocents. Not even close. It's too drastic a shift.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,053
You guys ignoring the fact that Cersei is not a threat to her throne? Jon is. This was a demonstration to him and anyone who might oppose her.

As far as she's concerned, Jon and Tyrion and Sansa and everyone else are plotting to overthrow her when this battle is won.
So then you establish that and follow it. Explain or imply in some capacity why she felt she should leave all those people alive but raze the city and kill tens of thousands of innocents after an unconditional surrender. It is a huge jump for her character and requires a lot more than getting mad about losing some cock, some isolation, and talking about ruling through fear.

You all injecting characterization and motive that wasn't established or inferred is not making your arguments any stronger.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,720
Lol what a stupid episode.

What the fuck was the point of Jaimie as a character, at all?

He's supposed to be someone who at face value is a total piece of shit, and is so many times, but underneath is someone who secretly believes in his oaths and struggles to do good.

So he goes through his entire arc, and comes face to face with reality, that the White Walkers are the true threat. He sees Cersei is blind to this and leaves in spite of her, presumably moving on. He fights for the living, redeeming himself and finally giving in to the woman who shows him he's a good man, Brienne.

But fuck all that, he goes back to Kings Landing to get stabbed by Euron for reasons, and then die hugging the woman who threw him to the wind.

What a mess.

Also, why didn't Dany just go straight for Cersei? Why did she burns the entire city to ashes?

Also, when did dragon fire become so fucking powerful? Would have been nice if it was that effective against the Wights at Winterfell, who are also impervious to fire. Oh yeah, she was just flying around in the clouds for the majority of that episode.

The death of Rhaegal was completely pointless as Dany had the same outcome, she just marched in and blew the city to shreds. I don't have a problem with that, but it makes the death of the dragon so pointless. And it makes the previous few episodes point of "our armies are even now" moot.

There's just so much that is poorly written here.
The death of Rhaegal wasn't pointless, how it happened was very stupid and it was irrelevant to the burning of KLs but the point was to make Dany even more fearful, isolated, and unhinged. Another straw on the camel's back.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Big difference between accepting help from family and accepting help from the person whose father burned your grandfather alive and had your uncle strangled as he watched.
Ah yes family that tried throwing you through the window of a cliff, only to then be ruled by LF (by proxy) who is responsible for all her suffering. Much better to trust these people then to trust someone she has 0 knowledge of, because, "shes not one of us".
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland

Lmao, it's not like people even in this thread haven't called those idiots who still like the show. But it's essentially a "geek show" being fantasy, so this is how the discussion goes in certain circles. It's the same with Star Wars, DC/MCEU. People want to fight over dumb shit like they're being the Avengers of the internet. It's the uglier side of "passionate" fans. Being a fan to a point of being obsessed is never good. Same shit as console wars.
 

Mortemis

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,416
People remember the word FEAR.

With the news of Jon being the legitimate ruler out in the wild, how can Dany shut down any attempt to put Jon in her place? Instill FEAR.

Since all her support system has crumbled, she chose this dark path without the likes of Jorah to pull her out of it.

Which is dumb from a ruling standpoint. How is she gonna rule an entire nation surrounded by people who hate her, and avoid assassination? Sleep tucked under her dragon every night?

Even mad tyrants who rule through fear have a ruling class of people they can trust. She'll have no one.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
See below.

Except she didn't; House Lannister defies her. Sansa denies her rule. And the north follows her because Jon follows her, not because they believe in her.

She wanted to avoid being queen of the ashes when she thought people would follow her out of love, but it was clear that never was going to happen when even one of her few remaining advisors betrayed her for Jon (something she feared and knew was destined to happen once his claim became known) so she chose to rule, as she has throughout the show, through fire and blood.
Ruling through fear doesn't make sense when she has seen for 2 seasons now that her greatest threat does not fear death! He was introduced to her as literally dying for what he believed in! He stood up to the physical manifestation of death with the white walkers and rallied his bannermen without even trying.

And she thinks ruling through fear will work? Lmao. The only people left alive are citizens who would never revolt against Cersei let alone a dragon queen, and the northerners who don't give a shit about death.

The people she could have effectively ruled out of fear (i.e. the lannisters who literally dropped their swords out of fear) she massacred.

11/10 strategy.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
Lady of Arryn tried throwing her through the fucking window of a cliff are you serious? And then was essentially ruled by the one person that caused her all of her pain in life.

So yes, something is ridiculous. And no it wasn't my counterpoint. If anything, Sansa had ten times more reason not to trust the vale than to trust someone she completely didnt know or have any prior knowledge or experience of.
No, she still had the Vale's support. Regardless of Lysa's insanity.
Their bannermen was on her side. House Royce is loyal to the Starks, they're friends to the Starks. As are the other houses.
You're deliberately ignoring the history of the Vale and the North, especially its recent history.

The Starks wouldn't trust any Targaryen, much less the Mad King's Daughter. No matter how you slice it, this is true.
It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,093
So. She could have like. Killed Jon. In his sleep. Or on the battlefield.

And not given him and Sansa and Tyrion an actual reason to overthrow her.
Or killed him during the battle of Winterfell when she should have in hindsight. The moment where she saves him from the zombies, she could have easily killed him and gone "oops went a little to close."
 

Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,473
Chicago
Dany pretty much took Kings Landing on her own and wiped out 90% of Cersei's army with one Dragon. Should have done that a couple seasons ago with three dragons and called it a day.

Ha, maybe Tyrion was protecting his sister after all.

Honestly if you ever want to refute the "theyve been setting up Dany going crazy this whole time" arguments you only have to pull from Dumb and dumber themselves. The deep dives post episodes are gold for this stuff.

It's hard to watch these and not think they are trolling at times.
 

Arta

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,445
What is the point of Jaime's character arc now?
With one episode to go, what's the point of Tyrion's arc? Why did the writers have him making so many mistakes since season 5?
What's the point of Jon Snow period? Infiltrating the wildlings, getting killed and resurrected, King in the North, all that... just to kill Dany in the final episode and brood about it in the end credits?
And Euron. That fucking Pirates Of The Caribbean reject. WHY?
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Which is dumb from a ruling standpoint. How is she gonna rule an entire nation surrounded by people who hate her, and avoid assassination? Sleep tucked under her dragon every night?

Even mad tyrants who rule through fear have a ruling class of people they can trust. She'll have no one.
Yep. Effective autocrats rule through clientelism and trying to create sectarian tensions. She's doing neither.
 

Thewonandonly

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,249
Utah
I wonder how many people who are saying the show is shit is really just pissed that they were stan-ing for the Mad Queen the whole time?
This a hundred percent I feel like the mad queen was Telegraphed for a while. You have that targarian on the night watch said, "It's a scary thing when a targarian is alone in the world". She was finally alone in the world and snapped.

Now don't get me wrong, this was a bit rushed. If they would have just had like 3 or 4 more hour long episodes to build stuff up it would have been so much better. Show her being lonely and secluded and finally snapping. Instead while making sense does feel rushed.

My boy Jamie his ending was not what I expected but I understand it. The love of his life for the whole 30 years of his life is going to die. He deep down wants to save her and at the last minute tries to. It fails and they die but I thought it was poetic and seeing Cersai break down when she saw Jamie was really good.

I'm excited to see where this end goes is John snow going to rebel and kill Dany. I'm pumped to see honesly this was a 9.5/10 episode for me. Would have been a ten if the whole season overall didn't lead to some aspects of this episode feeling rushed.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
Going from what you are to the literal opposite of what you are should take longer than a few days or weeks.

Or, you know, massively traumatic events like:

losing one of your children (dragon)
losing your best friend (missandei)
losing your most trusted confidant (jorah)
getting betrayed (in your eyes) by the man you love, and the two men you trust (varys, tyrion)
finding out that the man you've been boning is your nephew
and most importantly, losing what defines every single thing you've ever done, your belief that you are destined by birthright to be a great ruler

all within the span of a day or two
 

Emergency & I

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,634
Yeah the aimbot to worthless ballistas really frustrated me. Like, Danys and company didn't have a strategy, but just said 'fuck yeah dragons!!!' and won. The battle did not have an ebb nor a flow, just one side winning and then going genocidal. I like the latter idea as a device, and that was even spoiled to me (that she went crazy), but she could've done so in a much more believable way.

Like, that turn is earned to me, she's a been a fascist/one track psycho for awhile now, but within this episode, her pivot didn't feel right. The writers used the 'image of the castle her family built' as the rush her spawn to her darkness, but that was so poorly communicated and doesn't cater someone towards mass genocide. I feel like desperation needed to enter her stratosphere, but there was none around her because she had literally just earned her literal lifelong goal.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,058
Like I said, the last book was out in 2012. 7 years... Without this show we still don't know what happens to Stannis ffs. Who knows what the internal politics have been like getting this show to end.

Considering the amazing theatric quality of this episode I'm starting to change my opinion from the "hate on D&D" crowd.
It's not GRRMs fault they decided to start making a show based on books that weren't finished yet. And it's also not his fault that they cut down the last two seasons which forced them to rush everything and butcher several characters along the way.

D&D wrote themselves into a hole with several characters and that mistake was exacerbated by the fact they had nowhere near enough time to properly reach this point of the story.
 

lemonade

Member
May 8, 2018
3,044
Which is dumb from a ruling standpoint. How is she gonna rule an entire nation surrounded by people who hate her, and avoid assassination? Sleep tucked under her dragon every night?

Even mad tyrants who rule through fear have a ruling class of people they can trust. She'll have no one.

Well I'm not arguing that's a smart decision on her part. My argument is that Dany lost all the people she trusted leading her to make this decision which is a mistake. There is no Jorah to talk her out of it. This is why I think the motivation behind Dany's action is there in the show.
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,218
Dark place is mass murder of civilians. Which is crazy. Like, let me put it this way, if someone said "If this incel school shooter had gotten laid he wouldn't have done this", would that be a good point? If the punch-line of a film about it is that a last minute sex scene would've stopped them from going psycho, would that be a good message?

Of course, they use this justification on a female character which basically implies the angle is that "bitch is crazy because she ain't getting laid".
If you said "this incel school shooter did this because they did not feel loved" then that would apply more accurately. It very obviously wasn't about the sex in this case, and it's disingenuous to say is was.

She wanted Jon to feel exactly the same as she did despite his knowledge that they were family. She believed that the fact he didn't meant he didn't love her. She did not feel loved the way she wanted to, despite how clear it is to us that jon does love her just as much as she does.

Again, with our hypothetical school shooter, there is nothing gross about suggesting that he wouldn't have done it if he had felt loved. What's gross is suggesting that it was someone else's fault for not loving the shooter in the specific way that would have gotten through to them. Just because you can possibly phrase a truth in a way that might seem offensive doesn't mean that the truth is no longer true. If she had felt loved she would not have done what she did.

What is this suggesting? That fuckin females need dick or else they're crazy? Or that one person having overwhelming power and believing it to be their right and destiny is bad for everyone else.
 

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
52,532
Or, you know, massively traumatic events like:

losing one of your children (dragon)
losing your best friend (missandei)
losing your most trusted confidant (jorah)
getting betrayed (in your eyes) by the man you love, and the two men you trust (varys, tyrion)
finding out that the man you've been boning is your nephew
and most importantly, losing what defines every single thing you've ever done, your belief that you are destined by birthright to be a great ruler

all within the span of a day or two

sorry, still not enough to go from "saving the innocents" to "fuck them all even when they surrender and raze the city" in the span of a few days
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,218
I dont take issue with the idea that writing a series doesn't mean mapping it all out from the start, I was just making that point that when its clear that this wasn't the case of them setting her up for this so early on like so many keep trying to say. I wasn't trying to insinuate it was never in the cards until now or anything.
Thank you for the clarification, apologies if i was a bit aggressive :)
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,861
Jamie. On the same episode a sell sword sent by Cersei threatens to kill him, he decides to go save her, only to die with her in the next episode.

It says a lot at how bad the Dany stuff is that I haven't been able to give much thought to how badly Jaime went out. Lmao at me giving the writers credit that he'd at least contemplate killing Cersei. That he also somewhat took down Brienne with him... sigh
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Dany going crazy right at the end is the equivalent of winning the Super bowl/Stanley Cup/NBA championship/Olympic gold medal after training for it your entire life, having a great game, winning the MVP, and then deciding then to have a giant melt down just as the trophy is being brought out, lol.

She did it ... she did everything she wanted, she came from nothing but a sex pawn used by her brother in Essos, crossed the sea, freed slaves, to the most powerful person in Westeros, liberated and won King's Landing with minimal loss of life, and even beat the freaking Night King and a complete threat to humanity for good measure ...

You're really going to split hairs because she executed like 40 slave traders one time years ago who deserved death?

And now having done all that ... now she decides she'll go crazy and start with the new "burn all civilians" tactic.

It makes no fucking sense. It happens because D&D need to be out to get on with Star Wars, lets be freaking real. There's no sense in going all deep in defending this, that's really what's happening is the show creators want to bail out for richer pastures.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,093
Dany's decision only makes "sense" if it's a complete break from all logic and reason and she's gone truly mad. Making it a calculated decision to rule through fear after Jon rejected her doesn't make sense cause she left him alive to potentially escape after she burns the city. He's THE threat to her rule, he and Sansa have to die from her POV. Kill Jon, all his men, and toast KLs. That would've been the more calculated decision.(still crazy though)

If I'm Dany I'd just say it wasn't me. I'd point at Drogon and state that I wanted to let them surrender, but Drogon was pissed that he lost two siblings because of Cersei, and his uncle and human big sister were killed in this god forsaken land, and he just lost it. What's he going to do? Tell them we both wanted this?
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
I don't think the fear was used to scare off Jon, rather any would-be supporters.
They were already scared and then they died scared.

The only people left alive that would oppose her would do so no matter what.
Or, you know, massively traumatic events like:

losing one of your children (dragon)
losing your best friend (missandei)
losing your most trusted confidant (jorah)
getting betrayed (in your eyes) by the man you love, and the two men you trust (varys, tyrion)
finding out that the man you've been boning is your nephew
and most importantly, losing what defines every single thing you've ever done, your belief that you are destined by birthright to be a great ruler

all within the span of a day or two
Yeah torching a city for no reason makes perfect sense.

Being reckless and disregarding collateral damage is exactly the same thing as purposefully killing and destroying as much as possible for no reason.
 

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
52,532
It says a lot at how bad the Dany stuff is that I haven't been able to give much thought to how badly Jaime went out. Lmao at me giving the writers credit that he'd at least contemplate killing Cersei. That he also somewhat took down Brienne with him... sigh

Brienne's arc is retroactively shitty because of how terribly Jaime was handled at the end here
 

unicornKnight

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,191
Athens, Greece
Tyrion: "I'm committing treason, and I will die for it, but I'm just one dwarf, at least I'll save thousands"
Dany: "Hold my beer"
LOL literally laughed out loud at this. But yeah seriously fuck this show, I mean we all knew it was coming but once again D&D had to make it look so out of character, "I won, you surrendered, but I will burn you anyway"
Yes we get it, you want to depict that she is not the right person to rule and she is like her father but come on, not like this.
 

Civilstrife

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,286
When you feel like something you really want is slipping away, the natural psychological response is to tighten your grip on it, sometimes to disastrous effect.

That's what I see happening to Dany, and what I think is a true observation of human behavior.
 
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