Clearly not the best in class when it comes to management. Did Supergiant Games fill their award shelf last year with terrible crunch?
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[Game Informer] Naughty Dog Leadership Reflects On The Studio's History- Talks Crunch, Revisiting Kid Friendly Games, Future Goals
- Thread starter starfoxxxy
- Start date
- Sony
Not true. Respawn doesn't have crunch and is one of the most successful studios in the industry. Much more than some that make it as a practice, I have to say.
Also, it really doesn't matter if some people are okay with crunch. Maybe they don't have a SO or kids, or don't pay too much attention to their personal life. But most do. And when it's time for peer review and the people who are okay with crunch are talking about those who don't?
"They don't work hard enough."
"They're not passionate about the work we're doing."
"They go home early, leaving us to do the rest."
And so on. So yeah, that culture causes harm. And it's very disappointing that their leaders are not really addressing the problem. Unfortunately, it just confirms that my decision to not play their games was the best one for me.
I'm gonna say that I've yet to ever work on a project or seen any project in my line of work ever not have some kind of OT at some point, and sometimes people do want to work extra for whatever motivation they have. I don't agree with your best in class piece but I will agree that 40 hours in and out every week isn't always a reality even on the best run projects.
to me the bigger issue is 1. Compensation for OT. And 2. management forcing OT for months and months on end
Those are to me the worst practices that should not ever happen.
I have no idea what Jason is talking about in regards to 40 hour work week at max efficiency. Is he talking to robots?
The 60 hour work week guy probably adds about an extra 10-12 hours of "effective work" assuming ofc that person isn't doing -12 hour shifts or something. Then there would probably be little gain.
I feel like the answer on Crunch was a little noncommital but it wasn't the worst. I did not like the way they referred to it as simply "Hard Work". To the specific question regarding unionization, I think they're looking at it the wrong way. Someone working more hours of their own choice and without any "encouragement" or pressure from up high is one thing, but when the feeling is that you have to work the long hours, that's where the problems begin. I suppose I'd like to see how they handle future games but I'm disappointed in that answer.
I am also very disappointed to hear they seem to be done making games like Crash and Jak and Daxter. I don't really like the answer of "They're maturing" for that. I don't find that making games like Last of Us and Uncharted 4, in particular, are the only signs of maturity. There is plenty of room to do both. It feels like they look down on more family-friendly games now and I don't feel that's a sign of maturity.
Definitely upsetting to see how negatively the Last of Us 2 leaks affected them, alongside the silly controversies surrounding the game itself. I'm very glad that members of the team were able to push past that prior to launch and say that regardless of what happens, they were proud of the game they made.
Overall I'm not certain just how much I enjoy current Naughty Dog. I think they could stand to flip between their games like Last of Us/Uncharted 4 and Jak and Daxter/Uncharted 1-3. Maturity doesn't mean you can't make family-friendly games like Crash or Jak anymore, but that you imbue important themes in them.
I am also very disappointed to hear they seem to be done making games like Crash and Jak and Daxter. I don't really like the answer of "They're maturing" for that. I don't find that making games like Last of Us and Uncharted 4, in particular, are the only signs of maturity. There is plenty of room to do both. It feels like they look down on more family-friendly games now and I don't feel that's a sign of maturity.
Definitely upsetting to see how negatively the Last of Us 2 leaks affected them, alongside the silly controversies surrounding the game itself. I'm very glad that members of the team were able to push past that prior to launch and say that regardless of what happens, they were proud of the game they made.
Overall I'm not certain just how much I enjoy current Naughty Dog. I think they could stand to flip between their games like Last of Us/Uncharted 4 and Jak and Daxter/Uncharted 1-3. Maturity doesn't mean you can't make family-friendly games like Crash or Jak anymore, but that you imbue important themes in them.
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I get the impression that "work hard, play hard" mentality at ND probably does attract people who are willing to do this sort of passion work and that's why they want to work there. It's the allure that, if you have a really good idea, it could see itself implemented into one of the biggest gaming releases of a generation. IIRC, some of the accessibility mechanics and the guitar playing mechanic in TLOU2 were created from devs. And I think that's fine, it's respectable to want to make a name for yourself (even if I'm not that sort of person at all). I also think this is a situation where adding producers and stuff, as much as Era didn't seem to care for it, could be a solution to prevent people from pursuing things that would be burdensome or unlikely to succeed.
However, they need protect people who are in entry-level or a little higher positions who don't have the opportunity to bring forward an idea to implementation from being exploited from crunch. They need to ensure those folks aren't working their asses off for endless hours, especially for little compensation. And they also need to make sure that these passion projects aren't creating problems for other workers and should also try to curtail passion projects from burning out devs. Then again, how do you do that if it's part of the carrot that people at the studio are pursuing? I feel like ND wants to help crunch but also allow people to go crazy because that's the appeal of their studio and has no idea how to balance it.
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They might not get the award shelf like ND, but with 40 hours week here's some exceptional results.
"Overwork your workers so you can be best in the class and have some plastic statues in your shelf" lmao
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I just hope we see a healthy professional culture moving forward, we'll find out in a couple of years I guess.
Multiple studies all suggest the same thing: more working hours doesn't actually mean more work. Productivity drops as you add more hours to the work week, and increasingly it's suggested that SHORTENING the work week has minimal to no impact on productivity because as people have less time to do work, they prioritize tasks better and only do the things that actually provide value, as opposed to sitting in long meetings that don't accomplish much.
This may be more or less true depending on the type of work being done, but it's not an obvious catch-all that more hours at work means better product or higher productivity.
Where did you get that from? Last I heard Respawned crunched like crazy. :O
It's more that project managers and people managers know when extra hours are being put in. You can limit working hours to be 9 to 5 and I would do that any day if that's the only option you have to stop crunch but that places artificial limits on people. Good management can hold people to working 40 hours a week or less without having to be so rigid as to limit when those hours can be worked.
Respawn emphasises its no crunch policy
Apex Legends game director Chad Grenier took a stance against crunch, saying Respawn refuses to overwork the team in or…
www.gamesindustry.biz
Apex Legends updates less to maintain dev quality of life
Earlier this week, Polygon reported on crunch conditions at Epic Games as the company has tried to keep up with the phe…
www.gamesindustry.biz
Unless Vince Zampella and the head of Apex are all lying...
No project needs over 40 hours a week to complete on time unless you don't have enough resources and you've planned a date of completion that's not realistic given the people you have. The project management you've been a part of sucks. If you are planning all 40 hours and not hitting your deadlines then start planning 30 hours knowing that you have the extra 10.
Huge lol at the idea that (outside of physical labor jobs) people who are scheduled 40 hours a week don't also spend most of their time on social media/internet. I'm sure it's even worse now that people are working from home.
I didn't say it was required to be good enough, but, as you say, their award shelf is pretty light. They were also accused of crunch last year, so, I'm not sure why they keep getting brought up?
Well, uh...
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Well, uh...
Alleged Pandemic Crunch on Apex Legends Points to a Widespread Industry Issue
"I feel extremely stressed and burnt out trying to keep our seasonal releases on the same aggressive timeline as pre-sh…
"Alleged" and the game director already adressed this "anonymous review"
If you measure the quality/success of a studio from the awards they are getting then lol
And the idea that you have to overwork your staff to be the greatest in the biz it's so toxic no matter how you try to slice it
You really have no idea how most projects are run, I work on projects that can run for years, and in the billions of dollars at times and resources are not an unlimited thing, you may have long lead times, you may run into technical issues after things are implemented and countless other factors. No project is ever perfectly ran, Some may be ran under budget for various reasons and some on budget, but resources are by and far the biggest factor and if you need specialized people, and or have people sick out or cant find enough resources you will almost always run into some issue of people working over time the course of a project. Its dumb to say the project management sucks, because it's rare you dont have to have people working OT etc for various reasons.
If its sustained OT over months and months thats bad project management, if its OT for a week or two here or there to pick up certain resourcing issues beyond your control and for certain resources that typical in a project. Esp when we are talking for software projects where you constantly see studios outsourcing when they can, trying to find contract work in a market that is frankly highly competitive.
It's my prerogative to work 80 hours a week so that one white guy can get held up as an auteur by his internet fans.
My reward is I might be able to buy a house in 15 years.
Please understand.
My reward is I might be able to buy a house in 15 years.
Please understand.
Yup. They've learned nothing.
When the culture there has the president saying "Evan Wells: I have definitely personally worked very hard over the years. I think some of that has helped me get to where I am in my career." then that mentality is still alive & well.
What a puff piece.
Please rate my game high so I can feel good about myself while my life is wasting away.
Can you please show the work on your math when you explain how someone could work 60 hour weeks without doing 12 hour shifts? Are they just adding 2 10 hour days in place of weekends? And that's somehow better? Where else are those extra 20 hours coming from?
Once again, people are choosing to work in order to meet some deadline that wasn't realistic to begin with based on your resourcing. I don't know what field you work in so I don't want to comment too much on how important your deadlines are or what you might be able to cut but as someone who works in games I can confidently say that Naughty Dog can absolutely do just 40 hours a week with every employee and still produce an awesome game. Treat your hours like you treat your budget. Treat hours as a limited resource that you can't change.
So a typical 40 hour week is 8 hrs a day right?
Someone could be working in the evenings after dinner for 2 hours a day adding 10 extra hours.
Add in some weekend time like say 5 hrs sat and sun and there's a 60 hour work week.
Really easy to do.
Like I used to do it all the time without really thinking about it. Then I realized no one really cares or expects me to do that so I just did side projects in place of that time. And video games XD
Sorry, but results are how literally every business in the world is measured, and someone's results are always better than someone else's. And I never said you have to overwork your *entire* staff, but, some people will, for whatever reason, work harder than others, and they always will.
If you think you're being overworked on a product you don't care about, why are you there?
I bet when you used to do it all the time without really thinking about it you were in your young 20s and unmarried without children, yes?
Every 2 weeks a bunch of money shows up in my bank account, and I use that to pay for food that I put in my family, and also for the roof that we live under. What is wrong with you people?
Yeah its very noticeable, and Like when its months and months and months of OT? Thats a shitty lead project, But OT for short bursts to hit certain milestones it happens all the time, the key thing again is compensation for that time worked etc, and not a sustained level of OT as what most of crunch culture is. Voulntold to work OT, or Told to work OT and no end in sight at all, on top of cases of no compensation for said OT due to being salaried.
Also why being contract on projects can be very lucrative pretty much you are charging every single hour you work lol. But again there has to be safe guards towards it, etc. But a project over the course of years it's inevitable, based on resource availability, And other unforeseen stuff that happens all the time on projects, and also in those same projects there are people that never even touch having OT for various reasons as well.
In an ideal world you have enough budget to have near unlimited resources to pick up slack, that already know the projects ins and outs and can be on boarded quickly etc to jump in and contribute.
And like I dont agree with how they addressed the crunch question. But I get in one side where they were coming from.
Well, that is then a recent change because I know fora fact that was not the case when those articles were written.Respawn emphasises its no crunch policy
Apex Legends game director Chad Grenier took a stance against crunch, saying Respawn refuses to overwork the team in or…
Apex Legends updates less to maintain dev quality of life
Earlier this week, Polygon reported on crunch conditions at Epic Games as the company has tried to keep up with the phe…
Unless Vince Zampella and the head of Apex are all lying...
The results in the gaming industry is bringing revenue to your team or your owners; people put way too much stock in awards when the things that keep running studios and games are game sales and revenue generated by the product not the awards.
The quality/success is not measured by the "shelf filled with statues", because if it's really like this, then 99% of studios are not successful. Your whole point was: "If you want your awards and shit you shouldn't be surprised if X studio is pushing their worked to their limits, because this is what it takes", and stuff like this is extremely toxic.
You wrote this
Implying that if you work 40 hours a week, you aren't passionate enough and you can't have your awards (as if they are the most important thing when running a gaming studio)
The phrasing here is probably fortuitous in a way you didn't intend. To "allow people to go crazy" is, in fact, a way to "help crunch", as in to promote an unhealthy and toxic working environment.
The way to stop crunch and provide a healthy working environment is to let go of this notion that "letting people go crazy" is at all useful or helpful to anyone but the capital interests behind Naughty Dog who get a bunch of uncompensated work, basically strip-mining their employees until they burn out and can be discarded.
I mostly agree with you, but this is just... I don't know a single contractor that wouldn't rather be full time and I can't say, personally, that OT makes up for the effort when it's considered as part of your compensation. Crunching as a contractor might give you additional pay, but that's just to offset the lack of medical care or stability. Nothing worse than crunching your ass off then getting laid off at the 11th hour of a project because they arbitrarily decided last minute that the full time team can take over.
I've had a kid since 23 years old. Also not sure what you're implying??
If you think that's bad when I got out of college I worked for Accenture for like 2 years. Shit was fucking brutal. Like 90 hour work weeks easy.
Made bank though. Unlike those poor game devs(admittedly naughty dog pays well compared to other studios).
Also FYI I still work outside of the typical work week. Usually doesn't reach 60 but sometimes it does.
Still manage to find time to play video games, family, house diy shit, etc.
I totally understand that, Its not great to be on contract forever I know a lot who go in business for themsleves for a while and then they see how much it can suck over time and try to land something more stable. Its more a comment on doing that at times. Or what I have now you are "Salaried" but you also charge for every hour worked straight Which is probably the best scenario to be in.
Right, that's exactly my point. It is useful for them to have people who want to invest in passion projects and spend hours on things to make their game better as well something that makes their studio appealing to devs who want to do that sort of thing. It's also (in theory) bad for them to quickly burn through talented devs and get bad press. They essentially have to create a situation where they can have their cake and eat it too. So I really don't know how they're going to acheive that. Like I said, my inclination is that it's most important to protect the lower level employees who can't benefit from passion projects. Maybe more producers, as much as it sounds lame, can at least watch over these passion project workers and make calls about what they do early on, before they burn out on something that will go nowhere.
I think they kinda have the right idea which is to insure employees at an individual level aren't overwhelmed.
For example in my current place they love metrics. One thing they like is to track how many hours work someone did on project. And they encourage people to be as honest as they can.
The reason being is that they want to find people who spend too much time working and find out the cause. Are they having issues getting work done? If so do they need additional help? Are they stuck on something? Are they waiting on others or have some other blocker?
Because ideally you don't want people spending too much overtime. That's how you get turn overs, which is bad for many reasons, or low morale or burnt out devs.
That said no one is gonna stop that weirdo for working extra if they want. Just as long as they seem ok.
I wasn't implying, I was just betting, based on my own miserable life experience and the bitterness that builds up when you work in game dev for too fucking long
:)
Yeah well work life balance is important.
I've met people that straight up had massive mental breakdowns, lose their hair and like switched to being a kindergarten teacher due to insane overtime and pressure.
I feel you. Accenture are merciless with their pound of flesh.
So Americans still believe that longer hours = working hard = better results?
Also those who keep arguing for crunch obviously didn't address all the arguments provided against it in the last five to 10 pages.
It's obvious Naughty Dog doesn't want crunch to stop and instead finding compromises to keep it and not stopping it. That is fucking backwards.
Also has a Naughty Dog dev that isn't a lead or a part of management commented about crunch?
Also those who keep arguing for crunch obviously didn't address all the arguments provided against it in the last five to 10 pages.
It's obvious Naughty Dog doesn't want crunch to stop and instead finding compromises to keep it and not stopping it. That is fucking backwards.
Also has a Naughty Dog dev that isn't a lead or a part of management commented about crunch?
You don't need unions to have leadership that wants better work life balance and understands that longer hours doesn't mean more is getting done.
But that does not appear to be the case in much of the industry.
horrible take really.
it also highlights the problem, why crunch at a successful studio like nd is much more damaging then elsewhere.
it reinforces beliefs like you must crunch to be like them.
We believe these people exist and what we are saying is that they should have less power in how devs work. We are very much in the real world, but pointing out how shitty it is.