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stupei

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,801
I think CDPR just probably thinks people with epilepsy don't really play modern games, if they even thought of them at all. Sure we put that warning because we have to legally, but those people don't engage with my hobby duh, just like they didn't expect there to be any real trans people looking at their game. They really don't seem to consider marginalized identities as anything more than set dressing to inspire their craft, not people who will actually ever see and be impacted by it.
 

Video Kojima

Banned
Apr 5, 2020
2,541
That Miyamoto quote people like to post sounds even dumber now.

A delayed game means the game is a broken mess and there is no guarantee a delay, or several delays will make it better.
 

Yung Coconut

Member
Oct 31, 2017
4,267
Obviously it shouldn't have got through cert, but perhaps the company that conceived of flashing lights directly into the player's face as a central part of one of their core gameplay mechanics might take a little more responsibility overall.

Yeah, I get that you hate CDPR. But that's not how it works in real life. If lawsuits occurred the platform owners would be just as legally responsible.
 

Surakian

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
10,867
All of you dumping on CDPR only... If this is such a huge issue how did it get through Sony and MS certification? Sounds like there is plenty of blame to go around.

It's a massive game. They can miss things in cert. CDPR deserves criticism but yeah MS and Sony deserve a bit of blame too if they missed this.
 

TalkingToast

Member
Oct 29, 2017
65
Article is written from a super interesting perspective. I always assumed people who suffered from seizures didn't play games with seizure warnings, but the author outlines a number of measures she takes the reduce the severity of the lights (especially blue lights it seems) on her monitor, so that she is able to play games that have seizure warnings. I'm not 100% sure if she gets seizures while playing Dead Space but it seems like that is implied with near the end when she talks about it not usually ending well. I'm glad this article exists and provides useful warnings about when to look away from the screen for people who suffer from seizures but still want to play the game, much like the author of the article.

Sucks that this is even something people have to deal with but this article is great.

Having a seizure feels like a fairly major risk to take to play a particular game but I'm not educated on the actual risks and know that I would have an extremely difficult time just accepting that I'm not going to play whatever percentage of media has seizure warnings on it, presumably a good chunk. So I'm not trying to judge the author here for taking a risk she felt comfortable with taking, just kind of curious what others who live with seizures have to say on the topic.

Thanks for posting this article in particular about the subject, OP.
 

stupei

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,801
Yeah, I get that you hate CDPR. But that's not how it works in real life. If lawsuits occurred the platform owners would be just as legally responsible.

I was clearly talking about moral responsibility and not legal. Of course Sony and Microsoft also fucked up. That's the beginning and end of that discussion. They fucked up cert and should be held accountable. What more would you like us to say on the topic that every reasonable person can agree is fully open and shut?

Now why and how CDPR came to this design decision and how negligent that is, there's actually a discussion there, but you do seem more interested in policing what others are saying instead of contributing.
 

brokenswiftie

Prophet of Truth
Banned
May 30, 2018
2,921
this is like soo unneccesary
it could be anything
a rainbow pattern or stars or idk anything safe
but nope
had to be a pattern that doctors use to induce seizures
 

enzo_gt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,299
This has got to be the only place on the Internet where people wholeheartedly think a company would intentionally try to trigger seizures in, and the associated, inevitable lawsuits from its consumers.

Pretty much just as shortsighted as the subsequent argument for this which is because company does X bad thing, they will do completely unrelated Y bad thing. Y'all know better than this because the other half of the time y'all are acutely aware of the ills of capitalism and it's specific role in CDPR's labour practices. It doesn't take much to understand that no company wants this risk possibility and no amount of aesthetic goals would make any company knowingly do this when it can result in a settlement that seriously fucks up their bottom line. ESPECIALLY not one as big as CDPR.
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,973
I think CDPR just probably thinks people with epilepsy don't really play modern games, if they even thought of them at all. Sure we put that warning because we have to legally, but those people don't engage with my hobby duh, just like they didn't expect there to be any real trans people looking at their game. They really don't seem to consider marginalized identities as anything more than set dressing to inspire their craft, not people who will actually ever see and be impacted by it.
This post sums up pretty well what it seems like the mindset in general is in that company.

You would think they would be trying to avoid more controversy for stuff unrelated to the transphobia and crunch but I guess when your holding a shovel there is really only one thing you can do.
 

aspiegamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,460
ZzzzzzZzzzZzz...
I get the hate people have for cdpr I really do but to think they would intentionally do this? I just can't get on that boat .
They have no problem intentionally demeaning other marginalized groups, so why might this be any different?
This has got to be the only place on the Internet where people wholeheartedly think a company would intentionally try to trigger seizures in, and the associated, inevitable lawsuits from its consumers.

Pretty much just as shortsighted as the subsequent argument for this which is because company does X bad thing, they will do completely unrelated Y bad thing. Y'all know better than this because the other half of the time y'all are acutely aware of the ills of capitalism and it's specific role in CDPR's labour practices. It doesn't take much to understand that no company wants this risk possibility and no amount of aesthetic desires would make any company willingly do this. ESPECIALLY not one as big as CDPR.
"Sure, they don't mind a social discourse that causes bullying on social media in a setting that's known to drive transgendered persons to kill themselves, but they'd NEVER deliberately try to recreate patterns that trigger seizures!"
Again, not even necessarily likely, but it would not surprise me if they knew and just did not care to change it.
 

Rockets

Member
Sep 12, 2018
3,011
Developer crunch, transphobia, literally inducing seizures.. this is just insane at this point
 
confirmation of epilepsy issues, no epilepsy warning on title card

samred

Amico fun conversationalist
Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,586
Seattle, WA
I can confirm the sequence in the game is as jarring as described by Game Informer. I'm not the lead critic on this game at Ars, since I'm currently on vacation, but I recall being really bothered by the flickering, then forgetting to go back and check the menus for an accessibility option. (There's an option to filter out all of the nudity, yet nothing similar for flickering lights. Go figure.) There's no epilepsy-related warning in the game's title cards, either.
 

Eyad

Member
Nov 17, 2020
175
User Banned (2 Days): Drive-by post in a sensitive thread to make a joke
If you die in the game, your controller will give you an electric shock to simulate death.
 

Kiria

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,624
I can confirm the sequence in the game is as jarring as described by Game Informer. I'm not the lead critic on this game at Ars, since I'm currently on vacation, but I recall being really bothered by the flickering, then forgetting to go back and check the menus for an accessibility option. (There's an option to filter out all of the nudity, yet nothing similar for flickering lights. Go figure.) There's no epilepsy-related warning in the game's title cards, either.
I think the physical discs should be recalled as not everyone can be as informed and not everyone has access to a day 1 patch nor internet to patch it up

this is dangerous af
 

Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,153
Washington
Intentional or not doesn't really matter. How the hell does something like this make it through?

Serouousky. I thought it was pretty standard for game and movie makers to at least try to avoid sequences that are more likely to trigger seizures and put the warning if there was flashing lights in case some one was sensitive to even that. Maybe I'm too optimistic about stuff like that.
 

Conditional-Pancakes

The GIFs of Us
Member
Jun 25, 2020
10,841
the wilderness
I can confirm the sequence in the game is as jarring as described by Game Informer. I'm not the lead critic on this game at Ars, since I'm currently on vacation, but I recall being really bothered by the flickering, then forgetting to go back and check the menus for an accessibility option. (There's an option to filter out all of the nudity, yet nothing similar for flickering lights. Go figure.) There's no epilepsy-related warning in the game's title cards, either.

Thanks for the confirmation. The way this whole thing is described, it really seems like a dangerous mistake/negligence.

I absolutely love Ars Technica, by the way. I've been reading it almost daily for years now! Keep up the good work!
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,623
I can confirm the sequence in the game is as jarring as described by Game Informer. I'm not the lead critic on this game at Ars, since I'm currently on vacation, but I recall being really bothered by the flickering, then forgetting to go back and check the menus for an accessibility option. (There's an option to filter out all of the nudity, yet nothing similar for flickering lights. Go figure.) There's no epilepsy-related warning in the game's title cards, either.
Jesus, not even a warning?
 

enzo_gt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,299
"Sure, they don't mind a social discourse that causes bullying on social media in a setting that's known to drive transgendered persons to kill themselves, but they'd NEVER deliberately try to recreate patterns that trigger seizures!"
Again, not even necessarily likely, but it would not surprise me if they knew and just did not care to change it.
I would argue that making a case of causality from discourse on social media vs. someone seizing up as a direct result of a game are worlds apart when/if they are litigated.

Let's say they have the intention to harm in both cases (which, I would argue, is also much more likely in the case of transphobia than prejudice against people with epilepsy), it's way easier for them to get away with saying something that can be litigated away as free speech/political expression/misinterpreted/not the cause of their particular involvement in the discourse alone (which has multiple participants/life circumstances to consider) versus them actively trying to trigger involuntary, potentially life-threatening physiological responses in people who have already paid for their product.

It's apples to oranges for me. Both rotten apples and oranges, mind you, but the latter seems way more likely and substantially to be of consequential harm to the CDPR's bottom line than the former (although, I think there's a long term argument for how the allegations of transphobia will hurt their brand in the future). That's before you get to this odd assumption that CDPR exists in the overlap between transphobic organizations and organizations who hate epileptic people. I'm going to be honest, this is the first I've even heard of or considered the possibility of hating epileptic people. It's a tinfoil mountain of assumptions to think if they hate X they MUST hate Y.

More likely than not, this is probably a downstream consequence of their exploitative labour practices coming back around to bite them in the ass.
 

Samiya

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 30, 2019
4,811
If Sony and Microsoft can pull games from existence from PSN/Xbox on a whim (see PT on PS5 as an example), then they need to go and pull Cyberpunk 2077 until this harmful shit gets fixed.

That this also passed certification is a huge mark on them as well. This is completely unacceptable and can end up hurting a lot of people.
 

Henrar

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,907
I think the physical discs should be recalled as not everyone can be as informed and not everyone has access to a day 1 patch nor internet to patch it up

this is dangerous af
Physical boxes have a seizure warning (at least console releases do, I think that's a requirement set by console manufacturers).
 

Deleted member 50374

alt account
Banned
Dec 4, 2018
2,482
While it's probably not a conspiracy by the management, I'm sure they don't give a fuck about epilepsy and accessibility, and the one or two developers or designers who had an hand in this shit surely thought they were cheeky fucks to include dangerous lights; and no one in the company was paying attention.

Fuck, I studied design and we got hammered in all the things you should do to be inclusive of people and straight up not dangerous. To ignore it is to be evil
 

cabelhigh

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,723
I can confirm the sequence in the game is as jarring as described by Game Informer. I'm not the lead critic on this game at Ars, since I'm currently on vacation, but I recall being really bothered by the flickering, then forgetting to go back and check the menus for an accessibility option. (There's an option to filter out all of the nudity, yet nothing similar for flickering lights. Go figure.) There's no epilepsy-related warning in the game's title cards, either.

Un-fucking-believable. Truly ridiculous. Blood on CDPR's hands
 

dodo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,997
it's not a conspiracy, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a really, really, really bad fuck up.
 

Deleted member 9330

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,990
I can confirm the sequence in the game is as jarring as described by Game Informer. I'm not the lead critic on this game at Ars, since I'm currently on vacation, but I recall being really bothered by the flickering, then forgetting to go back and check the menus for an accessibility option. (There's an option to filter out all of the nudity, yet nothing similar for flickering lights. Go figure.) There's no epilepsy-related warning in the game's title cards, either.

Fuck. I take medication that lowers my threshold for having a seizure. It hasn't happened yet but now if I play this game I'm gonna be worried the whole time.
 

KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,254
What the actual fuck. How does something liek that even make it into the game? Something like that should actually be forbidden.
 

Curt Baboon

Avenger
Mar 13, 2018
3,570
That Miyamoto quote people like to post sounds even dumber now.

A delayed game means the game is a broken mess and there is no guarantee a delay, or several delays will make it better.

That's absurd. The fact that this game was delayed multiple times and is still coming out in a bad state doesn't mean that most delayed games haven't benefited from the extra development time. If anything, it just means that the game should've been delayed even further and CPRD's bad management of this game's entire development made such a thing impossible.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,578
I certainly hope it's patched, but a lot of these takes are...well, different from my interpretation.
 

MattyG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,031
So either a) they're incompetent and missed something super obvious that many devs have to keep in mind, putting people in danger through negligence or b) they knew it was an issue and didn't give a shit and figured "eh, it'll be fine," putting people in danger knowingly. Obviously I think it's the former because the latter is inconceivably terrible, but wow, still not a very good excuse!
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,578
what is your interpretation?
This was not at all intentional, and it's not an usually large black mark on the company, but rather a highly unfortunate yet pretty normal oversight which slipped through testing like any other manner of issues tend to do in very large games and will hopefully be corrected before long.
 

cabelhigh

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,723
This was not at all intentional, and it's not an usually large black mark on the company, but rather a normal oversight which slipped through testing like any other manner of issues tend to do in very large games and will hopefully be corrected before long.

Yeah but unlike any of the other thousands of bugs the game has, this is A) a designed feature that must have been seen thousands of times by hundreds of people are not one of them thought it was a high enough priority to change, and B) it could trigger a medical side effect that could kill a person.

Don't see how this should in the same category as 'normal'
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,578
Yeah but unlike any of the other thousands of bugs the game has, this is A) a designed feature that must have been seen thousands of times by hundreds of people are not one of them thought it was a high enough priority to change, and B) it could trigger a medical side effect that could kill a person.

Don't see how this should in the same category as 'normal'
Well, I already said my interpretation. This strikes me as a highly unfortunate yet not entirely unusual happening, one which is clearly not intentional and which will hopefully be fixed before too long. Like I said, I disagree with a lot of the takes.
 
Nov 27, 2017
30,109
California
What a mess
I hope it's being told when and where this happens because I had a seizure when I was a kid and if I got one again from this game jeez

surely it'll be patched out, I remember the incredibles 2 had a seizure scene so my mind is boggled when creators put things like this in their work
 

Video Kojima

Banned
Apr 5, 2020
2,541
That's absurd. The fact that this game was delayed multiple times and is still coming out in a bad state doesn't mean that most delayed games haven't benefited from the extra development time. If anything, it just means that the game should've been delayed even further and CPRD's bad management of this game's entire development made such a thing impossible.
So you're saying it's absurd to state that a delayed game is a broken game, and that no amount of delays can guarantee a good game? Is Cyberpunk not proof of this?? How many delays has it had? And look how serious these issues are? The issue highlighted in this thread is life-threatening. Instead of everyone saying "We trust you CDPR. It'll be ready when its ready!", people should have been more critical and criticized CDPRs mismanagement, and forced them to acknowledge their problems. Maybe they would have taken these issues more seriously.
 

OsramTaleka

Member
Nov 25, 2020
440
Sincere question here, not at all related to this particular game... Every game has an epilepsy warning these days. IIRC some Nintendo platforms had one in front of every game. Obviously not every game triggers symptoms, and as far as I can tell they are the same blanket statement across the board.

How do you navigate the hobby safely? Are there sites or something that give more detailed information about game content or are you always living on the edge, worrying about this sort of thing?
Hi! I've had multiple seizures a day for almost 4 years now and tbh I still don't know how to successfully balance it with my love for video games. Everything with me is trial and error. For instance, I've played Final Fantasy XIV since Beta and have even had an 8 hour a week raid static at one point. Ever since my brain injury, high end fights are much too much for me to handle reliably. I build up to certain activites over the course of days by resting and making sure I have as little stimulation as possible. Then I dive in and deal with whatever the consequences are.
 

Tovarisc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,428
FIN
Some hot takes really make it come across like CDPR set out to murder some epileptic people on purpose and with a plan in place. Guess Remedy did too based on posts about boss fight in Control. Systematic failures where this stuff gets through all certing processes unfortunately do happen, but I very seriously doubt we are looking at vast conspiracy to have epileptic people killed by video game on purpose.

CDPR needs to change this ASAP with a patch.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
If not modeled off of the IRL design, it's a very spot-on coincidence, and because of that this is one aspect that I would personally advise you to avoid altogether.
Jesus Christ, if CDPR intentionally modelled a pattern that medically induces seizures into the game to make that feel like "authentic brainwashing" or something, then someone unironically needs to go to prison.
 

KingBrave

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,211
Wow, glad I logged on here before I went to get the game. I have seizures but fortunately I'm not light sensitive.
 

Soj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,704
Game is coming in way too hot if incompetent shit like this is making it through.
 

dodo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,997
out of curiosity, is this the kind of thing platform cert is supposed to look out for? because honestly while this is clearly a daisy chain of fuckups, surely the buck stops there.
 

Deleted member 50374

alt account
Banned
Dec 4, 2018
2,482
Some hot takes really make it come across like CDPR set out to murder some epileptic people on purpose and with a plan in place. Guess Remedy did too based on posts about boss fight in Control. Systematic failures where this stuff gets through all certing processes unfortunately do happen, but I very seriously doubt we are looking at vast conspiracy to have epileptic people killed by video game on purpose.

CDPR needs to change this ASAP with a patch.
I don't think we need to watch out for CDPR feelings, no worries.
 

Terbinator

Member
Oct 29, 2017
10,250
I feel like this should be stickies to the top of the forum or a notification upon login given the popularity of the game and severity of the issue.
 

Deleted member 51789

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 9, 2019
3,705
It might just be an incredibly unfortunate coincidence but seeing people with epilepsy say that this sequence of flashing lights is almost identical to ones used to trigger fits by neuroscientists has me wondering if this was recreated intentionally, either with those in charge of it completely oblivious to what the light pattern actually did or with a hope that however they presented it wouldn't trigger the conditions for others for some reason.

Either way it's a complete mess that should have been caught in cert or even just internally but it seems like epilepsy is something that they don't particularly care about if there isn't even an in-game warning as with so many other titles. CDPR have to address this quickly.

Speaking generally, what are the processes for testing for epileptic events in video games. I know the process mainly in broadcast film and TV (an automated Harding/PSE test) but can any devs here let us know the process that needs to be done with games?
 

Negotiator117

Banned
Jul 3, 2020
1,713
So has this induced a seizure in anyone yet? And do we know if there is an epilepsy warning with this game? Things like this are usually picked up in the certification process right?