They come from the /snow/ board on lolcow, which, after a brief, regrettable visit, seems to be similar.
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Game Grumps host Dan Avidan responds to recent allegations
- Thread starter Taka
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They come from the /snow/ board on lolcow, which, after a brief, regrettable visit, seems to be similar.
This is how I feel about the whole thing honestly. It's beyond a shame to see so many people ready to just hop back in his corner and completely ignore the discussion that still needs to be had about how creepy and manipulative his behavior w/ his fanbase is.
OOF. Interesting. I'll withhold the idea that this is a multiple instances thing until I see concrete proof, then.
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Yeah tbh this has been hard to keep track of, because I thought these accusations were coming from a sketchy site (thought it was kiwifarms but I guess it's a 4chan like board now called /snow/? Never heard of it and sounds like I don't want to), but then people kept talking about them like it was 100% legit that it had happened exactly as those texts claim they did, so I don't know what I'm missing or if other people are missing their own stuff and we're all getting jumbled up.
At the very least I'm glad that, even with the grooming accusation proven false, we can still talk about the validity of his potential emotional manipulation of fans for sex, and whether that's true or not.
This is why I wrote something akin to same point in their life.
I'm guessing your dad is at least in his late 40s/early 50s? Him dating someone 11 years older than him isn't a big deal—that's two people at around the same point in their lives. Sure they may have had different experiences growing up, but so did my SO and I and we only have a 3-4 year age gap.
on the other hand, there's a huge difference between a 42 year old and a 22 year old. A 22 year old is likely either fresh out or still in college or technical school, or closer to the start of their career. The 42 year old is established, has probably had a lot of relationships, etc. They lack the same life experience and honestly probably make a fraction of what the 42 year old does (especially in this situation where he's famous???). It's just not analogous at all.
I think the dude is a creep, but I really have trouble in general calling people who have no relation to someone other than being a "fan" as a real power imbalance. There is not any actual power there. These people have literally no power over you.
Where power can be abused is if people with followers threaten to (or do) sick their various followers after someone to harass them. This happens very frequently online and of course from certain political figures. If that ever happens then yeah its despicable.
But I basically see a shitty guy with no platform and a shitty guy with an irrelevant video game youtube platform as exactly the same, no power difference, but still shitty.
Where power can be abused is if people with followers threaten to (or do) sick their various followers after someone to harass them. This happens very frequently online and of course from certain political figures. If that ever happens then yeah its despicable.
But I basically see a shitty guy with no platform and a shitty guy with an irrelevant video game youtube platform as exactly the same, no power difference, but still shitty.
Based on what I saw it's very 4chan like, complete with every post being listed attributed to "Anonymous".
Yes, the details are really murky and muddled at the moment because right now it's all one territorial internet clusterfuck of deleted posts and edits and shouting and games of telephone. I'm not sure I've seen a single person who seems to have a complete handle on what's been said by who, when and where.
Dan was 38 was in 2017 when this took place, though I don't know if that significantly changes anything.
When someone is an adult, and we've all agreed that being in your twenties is adulthood (just not full ass emotional maturity and a lifetime of experience), I think they have the agency to decide if they want to sleep with someone. What nobody has, however, is culpability for being lied to by someone who says they want something emotional and deeper than a one-night stand, then getting sex and moving on. Doesn't matter what age you are, nobody is old enough to deserve to be lied to by someone about their intent.
So I think if Dan has had displayed a consistent habit of deliberately only hooking up with young women, that's weird and extremely skeevy despite the legality or even if he were open and honest about his intentions. Regardless of that intent it paints him as someone who just constantly wants sex with younger women only instead of anyone around his own age group.
Edit: Sorry I should be more clear. I'm taking about this now because I was more focusing on "this is a matter between consenting adults" rather than that, seemingly, Dan has been pursuing a lot of time younger women in their 20s while he was in his mid to late 30s, and I should be thinking about that as another facet of the conversation when it's about the ethical and moral nature of his actions.
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I'm really mixed on this. I mentioned in the previous thread that while I don't really pay attention to Game Grumps anymore, I've always liked Ninja Sex Party and have been to a few of their concerts. I'm glad the most dire of the accusations have been cleared away, but a lot of things still concern me, particularly Dan's former assistant's comments and what her play implies. I believe Dan probably believes casual flings with fans is probably just a part of rock star culture that he himself has looked up to his whole life, and likely doesn't really appreciate the influence he holds on the ones who looked up to him. This isn't to excuse him, but more to understand where I think he's coming from. I also don't know if this behavior has continued now that he's been in a stable relationship for a while (and obviously the last year would have limited fan engagement anyway). I do think there's a lot to unpack here.
There are three separate things going on here that need to be viewed in isolation.
1. The Fan who spoke up.
Fan responds in earnest that she did not feel abused or victimized, she was not groomed but does believe that Dan was using his status to attract partners and "ghost" them later. It's perfectly valid for her to be pissed at him and it's valid for anyone to feel disappointed in Dan for this kind of behavior. Shitting on the fan and calling her a "groupie" is really gross. This is the kind of attitude that prevents people from coming forward with more serious allegations. Please stop.
2. Danny's relationship with his former assistant
Dan was in a three-way relationship with his former assistant Katie and her girlfriend. While Katie has said that everything was consensual and she does not believe abuses and grooms, she has called him an asshole and a predator in other ways. She has publicly called him out for juggling multiple partners, cheating and ghosting. She wrote a play about this and is directing people to her creative content if they want to know more. Her account of this relationship certainly makes him look like a dickhead but again, this is a story separate of the other allegations (grooming et all)
3. Fake stories and bad faith posts
Two alt-right forums (already named multiple times) and r/rantgrumps have been feeding and cultivating this story in bad faith. Rantgrumps are deleting stories from people claiming to be Dan's former partner and defending him, they are editing posts and it needs to be said that the entire basis of that subreddit is to complain about gamegrumps. The most common complaint? That Arin betrayed his "comedy roots" by apologizing for older content with racial jokes, that they don't like Danny, that "Jontron did nothing wrong" and they want Jon back. The alt-right forums specified are operating on the same premise as well and have been celebrating the downfall of Dan. The "fake" stories are coming from these sources.
All of these need to be considered in full.
It makes complete sense to feel disappointment in Dan, to be repelled by his shitty "rockstar" behavior. Again, please stop calling his fan a "groupie". She is reflecting and feeling that Dan used his status to pick her up and to excuse ghosting her, she's pissed and she's right to be.
That being said, people making drive-by posts that reassert that Dan is a "groomer" or that he is a "pedophile" (happened a lot in the previous thread) or defending the stories coming from hate sites need to be checked as well. These are serious allegations that are being weaponized by hate groups with an agenda. Callously throwing them around is destructive and irresponsible.
1. The Fan who spoke up.
Fan responds in earnest that she did not feel abused or victimized, she was not groomed but does believe that Dan was using his status to attract partners and "ghost" them later. It's perfectly valid for her to be pissed at him and it's valid for anyone to feel disappointed in Dan for this kind of behavior. Shitting on the fan and calling her a "groupie" is really gross. This is the kind of attitude that prevents people from coming forward with more serious allegations. Please stop.
2. Danny's relationship with his former assistant
Dan was in a three-way relationship with his former assistant Katie and her girlfriend. While Katie has said that everything was consensual and she does not believe abuses and grooms, she has called him an asshole and a predator in other ways. She has publicly called him out for juggling multiple partners, cheating and ghosting. She wrote a play about this and is directing people to her creative content if they want to know more. Her account of this relationship certainly makes him look like a dickhead but again, this is a story separate of the other allegations (grooming et all)
3. Fake stories and bad faith posts
Two alt-right forums (already named multiple times) and r/rantgrumps have been feeding and cultivating this story in bad faith. Rantgrumps are deleting stories from people claiming to be Dan's former partner and defending him, they are editing posts and it needs to be said that the entire basis of that subreddit is to complain about gamegrumps. The most common complaint? That Arin betrayed his "comedy roots" by apologizing for older content with racial jokes, that they don't like Danny, that "Jontron did nothing wrong" and they want Jon back. The alt-right forums specified are operating on the same premise as well and have been celebrating the downfall of Dan. The "fake" stories are coming from these sources.
All of these need to be considered in full.
It makes complete sense to feel disappointment in Dan, to be repelled by his shitty "rockstar" behavior. Again, please stop calling his fan a "groupie". She is reflecting and feeling that Dan used his status to pick her up and to excuse ghosting her, she's pissed and she's right to be.
That being said, people making drive-by posts that reassert that Dan is a "groomer" or that he is a "pedophile" (happened a lot in the previous thread) or defending the stories coming from hate sites need to be checked as well. These are serious allegations that are being weaponized by hate groups with an agenda. Callously throwing them around is destructive and irresponsible.
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People are losing the forest for the trees. If you require 2-3 paragraphs featuring words like "technically legal, mixed feelings, confusing situations" and addressing situations like power dynamics, potential grooming, appropriate sexual relationships then the person you are talking about probably has not been acting in a stand-up manner. Would you feel comfortable if people needed to have these conversations about your behavior?
This dude is obviously a creep who has been abusing his fame, and thus he shouldn't be allowed to have fame anymore.
This dude is obviously a creep who has been abusing his fame, and thus he shouldn't be allowed to have fame anymore.
That's not common among normal people either, at least not in the way you describe. There's an implicit understanding that someone you meet on Tinder, at a club or whatever is likely to just be a one-time hookup, but that's about it. Your responsibility is to not purposefully say things that lead the person to think otherwise and to be upfront if the discussion comes up, usually after the fact. Assuming what came out is the extent of the allegations, this is the only objectionable part of Dan's behavior IMO.
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I mean this stuff is getting around as "confusing situations" because no one has any veracity to the truth at the moment. We know grooming never happened, but it is worth talking about power dynamics in being a celebrity having sex with a fan.
It's not wrong to have sex with a fan of your music/show as long as the power dynamic is addressed and everyone has a clear understanding of each other's expectations, however, it would definitely be morally abhorrent if Dan had been lying about his intent to sleep with women, and it's extremely skeevy of him if well into his 30s he's been exclusively going after women in their early to mid 20s.
Stop combining two separate narratives.
A) He was a dick to his partners, he used his fame to attract women, juggled multiple partners and ghosted them
B) He was grooming underage fans, he assaulted women, he slept with underage fans, these were inappropriate relationships
A. is true. B. has been refuted (thus far). Yet you're grouping them together and accusing Era of "missing the forest for the trees".
It's not like Dan should be sent to prison for this, but I certainly wouldn't want to watch his content anymore. Half the appeal from these sort of streamers is watching someone who you enjoy as a person having a good time. Dan especially tried to put off a personality of a goofy, fun-loving, geeky sort of dude and that's really been bombed into dust for me. Plus, even though it's legal for someone who is in their late 30 to 40s to exclusively involve themselves with early twenties women, I think it bodes poorly for how they view their female fans and women as a whole.
Is it okay to ask you about the appropriateness/weight of ghosting, or is that something we shouldn't be focusing on this thread and that doing so would be detracting from the conversation?
I have my own experience being the victim of it from a friend, but I don't know if it's applicable.
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Actually, that's my entire point. Dan did A to such a degree and with people young enough that it got confused as B. Even if it's not actually B, the guy is clearly terrible. If you have to spend 3 paragraphs defending how the ONLY thing he did was use his fame to repeatedly emotionally exploit young adult fans 15 years his junior for sexual benefit, guess what, he's a creep.
Groupie culture is a thing tho. It can be both creepy and true. Not sure how it will ever change either as long as there are famous people there are going to be young and impressionable people wanting relationships with them.
In the OT thread, I stated that the best way for people to "support" Dan is to stop pretending that they know who he really is and to stop putting him on a pedestal. He has shared what he wants and is willing to share on the show, but he won't share personal events or experiences in his life until he's comfortable to talk about it. Even then, in all actuality, we don't know him. It's best you remember that.
As for the situation in question, stupid drama like this makes it hard for real victims to be believed and be taken seriously. But Groupie Culture is a real thing and it makes my skin crawl just thinking about the exploitative practices B & A-list celebrities use on young and impressionable people wanting romantic relationships with them. Sheesh!
As for the situation in question, stupid drama like this makes it hard for real victims to be believed and be taken seriously. But Groupie Culture is a real thing and it makes my skin crawl just thinking about the exploitative practices B & A-list celebrities use on young and impressionable people wanting romantic relationships with them. Sheesh!
Great post, i feel the same way.
While we thankfully don't have go through with the absolute worst scenario, it doesn't really negates every attitude Dan had towards his fans and colleagues that have recently come forward with stories. All of that completed with the horrible package of how his musics and persona reflected these issues, but in a non-jokey way now that we know how he behaves.
It's shitty behavior at best and creepy, predatory at worst.
Also, definitely doesn't helps that Game Grumps have said absolutely nothing about the issue yet (channel is uploading like absolutely nothing has happened) and Danny's non-apology is just...the opposite of taking responsability.
Can we PLEASE use our critical thinking skills instead of dismissing this situation as "internet drama". There's a reason women have been forward about how Dan's whole shtick of being "wow I'm a sex god who bangs nerdy girls all the time" was weird and tbh fucking dumb. It's enabling to allow this kind of shit to happen just cause it's his persona to act like a character in a movie lmao. Instead of looking at this at a surface level lets ask why tf this behavior is so easily dismissed and deeply ingrained in the male celeb culture. Just cause it was two adults doesn't make it ok for a 40 year old to start hitting on a 20-something year old when there's such a huge gap of influence there. Just bc he's your wholesome uwu viddygame guy doesn't make it any less insidious.
I mean, I thought the problem now was that a lot of the accusations regarding his behaviour were sourced from lolcow and kiwifarms. Did he actually do these things consistently as is being portrayed, in the sense that he is knowingly and deliberately going out of his way to focus on women in their early to mid 20s?
Which is to say we should believe them so long as we know they aren't coming from banned sources.
This is where I'm at also. I don't subscribe to the infantilization of grown adults, but it isn't right to lead people on in order to obtain easy sex. I don't think Dan should necessarily be cancelled, but considering how personality-based his content is, this story makes me not want to engage with his content anymore.
Right.
I definitely won't disagree and it is worth to ask these questions, since there's a lot of fabrication behind most of this.
It's just the fact that we need to be sure how deep those issues go, instead of knowing if it happened at all.
it's unfortunate that he has apparently done this and ghosted people. but also there really is nothing unethical about having sex with your fans. I have never agreed w/ the framing that it was an abuse of power. Is he only supposed to have sex with people who don't know who he is? I think that's a little unreasonable.
User banned (1 month): Posting a video uploaded for a harrassment site, after previosuly warned not to post content from this site
It's good to hear that in this particular case, the worst thing he seems to have done was ghosting her.
But this whole ordeal did cause Kati Schwartz to come out and confirm that the "John" character in her play was Dan: [Mod Edit: video removed]
So...
But this whole ordeal did cause Kati Schwartz to come out and confirm that the "John" character in her play was Dan: [Mod Edit: video removed]
So...
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The very people asking for nuance are those presenting none.
People are shaming the fan and "groupie behavior".
People are also still responding to this thread by using the stories from those alt-right forums and presenting them as part of the story. Zero call out on people using the fake stories as part of the truth.
Like for me it's pretty simple. If the allegations are from a credible source then they deserve to be believed or at the very fucking least, bare minimum decency, be acknowledged and treated with dignity, and a credible source in this case means "literally everywhere except for the garbage dump of the internet." Not even someone needing to put their real name out there because that kind of bullshit leads to the victim getting harassed for "oh well you say it but you don't have proof so now I'm going to dox you."
That's why I'm having such a hard time following this, because everyone's coming along saying "Dan isn't a groomer but he did do X, therefore he's a creep" except we don't even know if the allegations that he did those things are even from a credible source to begin with. All I really know now for certain is that he had sex with someone one time when she was 22 and he was 38, not that it's a consistent pattern where this grown ass man deliberately and knowingly seeks out women in their early 20s and dazzles them with a rockstar persona and lying through his teeth that he actually cares super lots about them, then fucking them and leaving.
Thank you. This is honestly the best take on this mess of a thread. Although my opinion of him from the previous topic remains more or less the same, it's good to understand where from and why some of these allegations are being made.
It's sad that these bad faith people are trying to destroy the victim's credence and ignoring the fact that their relationship, along with the other ones she alleges Dan having, were built on a foundation of imbalance of power and influence. Regardless of what other allegations are made or conjured, this is something that remains true.
I don't think Dan's behavior should be excused just because he ignored his power and influence and how much sway those have with his fans.
So it ended up being a big nothing burger, as was pretty clear even a day after the initial allegations came out from a known racist supporting hate subreddit and two notoriously alt-right forums we aren't even allowed to link here. I saw all of this story as it was unfolding (outside of this site) on the regular gg subreddit and yeah... There was a healthy dose of skepticism.
Yeah, one of the reasons it's difficult to discuss and sort out the issues here is that nobody's able to get a firm grasp on what about this is true, what's exaggerated/misrepresented and what are outright fabrications... It's difficult to hold a moral stance on something when you're unsure of how firm the ground you're taking that stance on is.
Acknowledging that it was groupie behavior isn't equivalent to shaming her, it's what it was. She wanted to fuck him because she was a fan of his and that's fine, she can do what she wants, but that's like the literal definition of a groupie. She knew exactly how much older he was than her and still said 'Yeah, I'd hit that', so what more is there to go on on that front?
Guys have our simps and our incel problems, but groupie stuff? That's a woman thing; women throwing themselves at rockstars and the like apropos of nothing is on them (if we're talking nuance, can we at least acknowledge that groupie culture isn't 100% a problem of the male celebrities that sleep with fans?).
There're plenty of celebrity women women I'd sleep with if given the opportunity, so I definitely get it.
Well said. Situations like this always make me think back to this Twitter thread:
(To be clear, I'm talking about the "exploiting young fans" thing, not the grooming accusations. The thread above does a great job verbalizing why that's a problem in the SF&F world, and the same applies to YouTubers.)
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Nah come on, this is a really bad way to phrase this, calling groupie culture "a woman thing" like it just absolves celebrities from acknowledging that the reason they're getting fawned on is their popularity.
Everyone on board's gotta be okay with having a casual fling, and if the extent of that is "yep you're hot and I like your music" then that's fine, but it has to be acknowledged and talked about to a degree where both parties know what they're getting into.
Thank you for saying this. This attitude that legality and morality are the same thing is really cancerous. Like you said, sure the guy didn't break the law, but his behavior is disgusting.
Is it too much to ask that people who's job is "YouTube content creator for children" not try to fuck their fans that are 15-20 years younger than them? Can we accept that men who are in their 30s trying to get with college aged women are probably bad people and should be called out for that?
This whole thing is really a great example of how men are just allowed to behave however they want and no one will ever tell them to stop. Oh it turns out video game YouTube man is using his platform to sleep with and manipulate young women? Hmm...well he didn't break the law! It would be unfair to judge him! Rock on video game YouTube man!
I mean, is it not though? Do men have the capacity to be groupies in the same way women do? To me, it's the counterpoint to people like 'idol fans' or men that donate to people's onlyfans or like, buy Belle Delphine's bath water. Male fans overindulge with money and female fans (groupies, specifically) overindulge with their bodies because they can in a way that male fans can't.
It's not absolving celebrities from acknowledging that (hell, I'm sure a lot of them got into it specifically 'because' of groupies), but groupie culture only exists 'because' women go after these men with this perceived power / popularity. Like I've said before, no one is forcing Sally Sue to flash her breasts or go backstage to sleep with Johnny Jukebox, just like no one is forcing Joe Jitterhands to donate money to Sarah Sundance. If women stopped doing it, then groupie culture would stop since they're the ones choosing to pursue these men in the first place.
This is separate from people abusing their actual power to force women into situations.
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My dad was 13 years old than my mom. He went to college later in his life and met my mom there. My dad was not a bad person. If you take nuance out of everything, and there is nuance to be had here, these kind of blanket statements are harmful. Dan's behavior was gross and the whole sleeping with fans thing has its own discussion, but that discussion isn't "age gap? Disgusting."
But then the moral thing to do in that scenario as a celebrity is to say "I'm not the idealized performance you have of me in your head." If you're approached by a fan for sex the very least, the bare minimum you need to do is acknowledge that they're coming at you for someone you might not actually be.
Men aren't wild horny animals who can't help themselves. Celebrity status does create a power imbalance when it comes to sleeping with a fan but the easy way out of that is to clear the air and understand what everyone wants to happen right now. It's that easy.
Glad to see at least someone say this. Felt like I was going a little crazy. Even the most charitable reads of this comes off very poorly and everyone is being very quick to throw out the baby with the bath water.
It's not just a youtuber thing tho. Anywhere there is fame this happens, Actors, Musicians, Athletes, etc. It's shitty, but it's not illegal so I'm not sure what can be done. Just seems weird that other celebrities aren't called out for this behavior as well.
Never said it was? The thread I linked is straight up about science fiction and fantasy authors. :P
I think this is a good post. People are conflating several threads of narrative here.
The comment section of all their recent videos is super fucking gross. Pretty much exclusively making jokes at the expense of the woman making the allegations and people saying shit like "stupid SJW bitch should have her life ruined for trying to get Dan canceled" and people going on about how Dan is "the real victim". I mean I don't know what the best course of action should be but I wish Game Grumps would take some sort of action to discourage these kinds of comments.
The way social media mishandled this shit is gonna make it harder for these sort of situations to be taken seriously in the future I feel.
I agree that this is the kind and appropriate thing to do ahead of ALL sexual relationships. I do not see how there is a special power imbalance between a fan and a celebrity. A celebrity is not intrinsically any real position of power over any individuals who are fans.
A celeb CAN have a power imbalance, if they wield their audience to harass you, wield influence within an industry to get someone a job or opportunity, etc. But for someone who is just a fan, I just don't see it.