Game Engine Designer (Hazel, Frostbite) breaks down Unreal 5 demo

Kelly Wellness · May 17, 2020

I'm glad these machines have some differences and tradeoffs, it makes things interesting... Microsoft has bigger GPU dick power but Sony has super fast SSD Brain and orgasmic new dualsense controller.
we're all in for a treat

Shogmaster · May 17, 2020

Chettlar said:
You're literally still doing it lmao

I only do it to please you boo boo.

gundamkyoukai · May 17, 2020

Shogmaster said:
Sure we have for the given amount of RAM to be filled.

If these consoles had say 29GB of RAM (out of 32) rather than 13GB (out of 16) in gameplay, I would say 9GBps vs 5GBps is much more significant. So yeah. I would never say we'd reached fast enough SSD I/O today at those speeds and we don't need anymore improvements. But in context of what they are serving, which is the RAM count for both consoles, it's enough and in the realm of diminishing returns.

For whatever reason Sony went with overbuilding the SSD sub system and MS went with overbuilding the amount of CUs on the GPU. Does that mean they screwed up on other parts of the system? No. They are more than competent in those other respects.

If you, as a Sony fan is still shell shocked about 12TF of XsX when months and months you were fed PS5 has more powerful GPU narrative by the insiders here, and you need this SDD I/O superiority thing to be much bigger deal than it actually is to compensate, then fine, have it and enjoy it. But don't get too surprised in couple of years it doesn't amount to much in most 3rd party games.

I mean a lot of people don't expect much from 3rd party games when it comes to fully using the systems .
Sony could have better loading and maybe textures or maybe something else in 3rd party games.
MS will have better Res \frame rate or RT in 3rd party games .
Still Sony has some of the best tech devs in the business and it going to be exciting to see what they do with the extra SSD speed. ( same for MS and there system )
I don't see why people should base things around 3rd party games and engines only .

Shogmaster · May 17, 2020

gundamkyoukai said:
I mean a lot of people don't expect much from 3rd party games when it comes to fully using the systems .
Sony could have better loading and maybe textures or something else in 3rd party games.
MS will have better Res \frame rate or RT in 3rd party games .
Still Sony has some of the best tech devs in the business and it going to be exciting to see what they do with the extra SSD. ( same for MS and there system )
I don't see why people should base things around 3rd party game and engines only .

That's because you can't objectively compare 2 first party games. You can compare the same 3rd party game much easier. You won't be seeing Halo Infinite vs Horizon Zero Dawn 2 comparison in DF!

Firmus_Anguis · May 17, 2020

Gamer @ Heart said:
All this SSD talk has given me hype whiplash at least a dozen times since the talk started months ago. I get excited thinking of the possibilities then remember none of this will matter for years. Most of these games will have a PC version and no publisher is going to cut off what amounts to the majority of their base by cutting off HDD users, and none of them are going to pay for different versions of these games on the same platform.

Everything will remain the same but faster except for exclusives. And exclusives have the budget and manpower behind them that hardware limitations are barely a factor.

What??
We had games like AC: Unity one year after the launch of the current-gen consoles. It was designed for, what was then, next-gen... Games like Assassin's Creed Rogue still came out for last-gen though.

Current-gen games were outselling last-gen games by quite a lot too. I'm expecting the same with next-gen (although I expect the PS4 to keep on selling).

Devs definitely want to move on from HDD's sooner rather than later.

Vitamin_B_Complex · May 17, 2020

Shogmaster said:
The maximum SSD speed of PS5 vs XsX comes down to like 1.4 seconds difference or something like that if you are flushing and replacing entirety of the RAM allocated for game engine. I guess you can get excited about that but that to me is the definition of diminishing returns. Will devs make games that just HAVE to stream 13GB of data every 1.5 seconds constantly? Is that what we are asking for I guess? LOL OK then.

The question in that case is not can they do it but do they want to ship a 500gb game. Asset variety and size will be the limiting factor next gen and I hope devs don't care. I have no problem with installing 300gigs but I also have no data caps, so there's that.

Gamer @ Heart · May 17, 2020

Firmus_Anguis said:
What??
We had games like AC: Unity one year after the launch of the current-gen consoles. It was designed for, what was then, next-gen... Games like Assassin's Creed Rogue still came out for last-gen though.

Current-gen games were outselling last-gen games by quite a lot too. I'm expecting the same with next-gen (although I expect the PS4 to keep on selling).

Devs definitely want to move on from HDD's sooner rather than later.

Devs do. Publishers dont

Again, I'm not talking about cross gen. I'm talking about the absolutely enormous amount of PC players still using HDD whose ports will continue to exist alongside next gen only games.

gundamkyoukai · May 17, 2020

Shogmaster said:
That's because you can't objectively compare 2 first party games. You can compare the same 3rd party game much easier. You won't be seeing Halo Infinite vs Horizon Zero Dawn 2 comparison in DF!

Still you can bet they will compare what there engines are doing and certain aspect of those games .
If the games in the same genre like GT and FORZA they will compare them also .
So it really don't matter since they will get compare either way and it don't be 3rd party only .

rokkerkory · May 17, 2020

UE5 is going to look and perform GREAT on both systems. For 3rd party mp games, difference will be tiny. That's not the focus of 3rd party devs to eek out every bit of performance for mp games.

chris 1515 · May 17, 2020

gundamkyoukai said:
Still you can bet they will compare what there engines are doing and certain aspect of those games .
If the games in the same genre like GT and FORZA they will compare them also .
So it really don't matter since the will get compare either way .

It will be interesting to compare Forza Motorsport 8 against GT or Fable against HZD 2.

Shogmaster · May 17, 2020

gundamkyoukai said:
Still you can bet they will compare what there engines are doing and certain aspect of those games .
If the games in the same genre like GT and FORZA they will compare them also .
So it really don't matter since the will get compare either way .

Those comparisons are fun and good for what feature set they employ, but ultimately not too useful since how the two games are constructed is too different.

But you are right DF has done those comparos before. Maybe we'll get Halo v Zero Horizon Dawn video afterall! :D

Deleted member 54073 · May 17, 2020

Very impressive, looks like Sony might be onto a winner with their SSD tech.

Shogmaster · May 17, 2020

Vitamin_B_Complex said:
The question in that case is not can they do it but do they want to ship a 500gb game. Asset variety and size will be the limiting factor next gen and I hope devs don't care. I have no problem with installing 300gigs but I also have no data caps, so there's that.

Yeesh... idea of 300GB game just gave stomach cramp... We're gonna end up spending more on storage than the consoles at this rate...

chris 1515 · May 17, 2020

It is invisible during the video but here going frame y frame we see some missing information by the virtual geometry system. It does not stay long maybe one or two frames but SSD speed probably has an impact.

Firmus_Anguis · May 17, 2020

Gamer @ Heart said:
Devs do. Publishers dont

Again, I'm not talking about cross gen. I'm talking about the absolutely enormous amount of PC players still using HDD whose ports will continue to exist alongside next gen only games.

PC's are the last thing that will hold consoles or gaming back... If games are designed around SSD's, people will have to upgrade. It's as simple as that.

Dr Guildo · May 17, 2020

Shogmaster said:
Jesus christ... Am I downplaying SSD's importance? Or what the difference between 5GBps and 9GBps buys you in context of diminishing returns?

Also, let me tell you about what devs will use and not use. XBO X has 4GB of RAM advantage vs PS4 Pro, which could be argued a bigger advantage than storage speeds. How many 3rd party games took advantage of that difference? Go ahead. I'll wait.

Max PS5' SSD speed is 22GB/s tho.

Shogmaster · May 17, 2020

Dr Guildo said:
Max PS5' SSD speed is 22GB/s tho.

I'm sure XsX's PCIe 4.0 SSD also has higher peak transfer rate than 2.5GBps before compression (which is well within PCIe 3.0 speeds) but let's keeps things to real world speeds, not some theoretical stuff on paper.

Sanka · May 17, 2020

Ah, thanks OP pretty informative. That explains a lot.

Dr Guildo · May 17, 2020

Chettlar said:
I don't think it would look even close at very least, and I really do not know how the ending cutscene would even work.

Thanks to the automatic scalability of nanite, assets and textures will adapt to the hardware's capability in term of performance.
That means if your SSD/IO system is not as sophisticated as the one found on the PS5, no more Zbrush high poly assets, no 8k films textures, no more 1poly=1pixel, etc.

Dr Guildo · May 17, 2020

Shogmaster said:
I'm sure XsX's PCIe 4.0 SSD also has higher peak transfer rate than 2.5GBps before compression (which is well within PCIe 3.0 speeds) but let's keeps things to real world speeds, not some theoretical stuff on paper.

That is not theorical, Cerny said if datas are particulary well compressed, you can have that transfer rate.

Shogmaster · May 17, 2020

Dr Guildo said:
That is not theorical, Cerny said if datas are particulary well compressed, you can have that transfer rate.

Wouldn't that be true for all SSDs? If you have ideally compressed data, you can increase the data rate. OK.

Let's just keep both sides to 2X lossless for now and call it a day. Coo? Coo.

chris 1515 · May 17, 2020

On the photo I show above the missing geometry comes from SSD loading probably

Mipmap in Procedural Virtual Texture

When implementing Procedural Virtual Texture, why only 2 lod level is enough to texture a tile? Imagine a hill and a plain ground exist in the same tile. The face of the hill has the largest pixel/texel ratio. The side of the hill has a smaller pixel/texel ratio. The ground has the smallest pixel

www.gamedev.net

This is how virtual system work and from what Brian Karis told it seems they store geometry as a texture.

Brian Karis on Twitter

“When I say over a decade I'm not exaggerating. Some blog posts of mine from the beginning of 2009. From then till now I've been thinking about this. So excited this day has finally come https://t.co/FZL5S1weff https://t.co/ayAwdWTbVZ”

twitter.com

Yes that's per pixel. Each pixel needs two mips to be resident.

All virtual texturing techniques need to deal with non resident data. If a pixel asks for a part of the VT that isn't resident (whether that's part of a particular mip, or an entire mip level!) your system needs to be able to satisfy that request with some alternate data (maybe a different mip level than the one they wanted) and then work to try and make that bit of missing data resident for the next frame.

Dr Guildo · May 17, 2020

Shogmaster said:
Wouldn't that be true for all SSDs? If you have ideally compressed data, you can increase the data rate. OK.

Let's just keep both sides to 2X lossless for now and call it a day. Coo? Coo.

With the size of the games increasing, it is obvious devs will seek for more compressed datas. Especially since PS5 has only 825GB of storage.

Calabi · May 17, 2020

chris 1515 said:
On the photo I show above the missing geometry comes from SSD loading probably

Mipmap in Procedural Virtual Texture

When implementing Procedural Virtual Texture, why only 2 lod level is enough to texture a tile? Imagine a hill and a plain ground exist in the same tile. The face of the hill has the largest pixel/texel ratio. The side of the hill has a smaller pixel/texel ratio. The ground has the smallest pixel

www.gamedev.net

This is how virtual system work and from what Brian Karis told it seems they store geometry as a texture.

Brian Karis on Twitter

“When I say over a decade I'm not exaggerating. Some blog posts of mine from the beginning of 2009. From then till now I've been thinking about this. So excited this day has finally come https://t.co/FZL5S1weff https://t.co/ayAwdWTbVZ”

twitter.com

Its not missing geometry, its missing the normal map by the looks of it. The digital foundry article mentions they still use normal maps, some of the statues are using 24 8k textures each and normal maps are a part of that(just not baked mesh normal maps I guess). They are using tiled normal maps for the all the high frequency sub pixel details things like tiny bumps and scratches etc.

chapel · May 17, 2020

chris 1515 said:
On the photo I show above the missing geometry comes from SSD loading probably

Mipmap in Procedural Virtual Texture

When implementing Procedural Virtual Texture, why only 2 lod level is enough to texture a tile? Imagine a hill and a plain ground exist in the same tile. The face of the hill has the largest pixel/texel ratio. The side of the hill has a smaller pixel/texel ratio. The ground has the smallest pixel

www.gamedev.net

This is how virtual system work and from what Brian Karis told it seems they store geometry as a texture.

Brian Karis on Twitter

“When I say over a decade I'm not exaggerating. Some blog posts of mine from the beginning of 2009. From then till now I've been thinking about this. So excited this day has finally come https://t.co/FZL5S1weff https://t.co/ayAwdWTbVZ”

twitter.com

One thing misleading about your images is that the camera is zooming in (ever so slightly) into that geometry. It could be that the extra detail is only picked up at a certain distance which is why similar geometry further back on the wall on the other side of that statue still looks low detail even though it looks like the same asset.

tzare · May 17, 2020

Shogmaster said:
12 v 10 is definitely in the realm of diminishing returns when 6 v 4 doesn't do so much anyways.

As for SSD speeds, we can do simple math. 13GB of RAM isn;'t gonna feel enough impact for 5GBps vs 9GBps. 5GBps can already fill the whole amount in less than 3 seconds. 9GBps saves you further 1.5 seconds. I mean that's better for sure, but will it be game changing difference? Slightly more convenient difference? Not even noticeable in most games difference? You want it to be the first because...? For me, just like TF difference, it's diminishing returns.

Well, i want new tech to allow for new experiences or new approaches, isn't that the goal? Or improving what we already have.
So new SSD speeds on new consoles will hopefully deliver those new experiences or things now are just not possible,beyond loading times that is what everyone expects as the first true leap.
And while both have awesome HDD specs compared to current gen, one seems to have focused more on this particular part of the hardware. So, they probably have some ideas behind to use that speed. I mean 3 seconds to fill 13 GB is very low ( that is compressed data, and not sure if the standard loading speed, but let's think it is), but in the heat of the action it may be a bit too much. If you need to fill that amount obviously. I think it is obvious that some compromises will have to be made. It can be just some degree of lower detail for one or two seconds (a bit like those famous slow loading textures on some UE based games), or some other subtle changes. I don't know. But i want devs to push the possibilities of the ssd, the same way people expect devs to use those extra TF on XSX for a few extra pixels or frames or second or eye candy. Or you would prefer them to search parity without using the possibilities each hardware provides?
I never said that something is possible on PS5 and not on XSX. But seems obvious that some differences will exist. If those will be noticeable or not, i don't know. Differences will be minimal probably in most cases. Just loading times. Probably the UI on PS5 is designed with ssd in mind and is super fast. Don't know.
And the question you asked, i will formulate differently: if a dev designed something that needed all this ssd speed , and couldn't be replicated on other hardware without important trade offs, should stop just because others will not be able to do experience?
I'll give you an example, not related to this SSD talk: Splinter Cell on XB vs PS2. Same game different experience.

chris 1515 · May 17, 2020

chapel said:
One thing misleading about your images is that the camera is zooming in (ever so slightly) into that geometry. It could be that the extra detail is only picked up at a certain distance which is why similar geometry further back on the wall on the other side of that statue still looks low detail even though it looks like the same asset.

Andrew Maximov on Twitter

“@OpticalPrime36 @cmauricekidza @PlayStation @cerny Yeah just got around to reading the eurogamer article. Jerome did say that normal maps are just tiling surface detail, but in the trailer there is a clear texture streaming issue that makes it look like NMs have unique surface information. So...

twitter.com

When someone working as a dev tries to find how the technology work and find this and think it is a texture here a geometry texture not loaded I think this is true. This is the same view and this is how virtual systems work from a game development forum. After this is not very visible because the details arrive fast probably next frame and there is so much details it is less visible than when the details are low. But the SSD is very fast what arrive with less fast SSD.

Mipmap in Procedural Virtual Texture

When implementing Procedural Virtual Texture, why only 2 lod level is enough to texture a tile? Imagine a hill and a plain ground exist in the same tile. The face of the hill has the largest pixel/texel ratio. The side of the hill has a smaller pixel/texel ratio. The ground has the smallest pixel

www.gamedev.net

Yes that's per pixel. Each pixel needs two mips to be resident.

All virtual texturing techniques need to deal with non resident data. If a pixel asks for a part of the VT that isn't resident (whether that's part of a particular mip, or an entire mip level!) your system needs to be able to satisfy that request with some alternate data (maybe a different mip level than the one they wanted) and then work to try and make that bit of missing data resident for the next frame.

Corralx · May 17, 2020

chris 1515 said:
Andrew Maximov on Twitter

“@OpticalPrime36 @cmauricekidza @PlayStation @cerny Yeah just got around to reading the eurogamer article. Jerome did say that normal maps are just tiling surface detail, but in the trailer there is a clear texture streaming issue that makes it look like NMs have unique surface information. So...

twitter.com

That tweet and the previous one in the thread show he misunderstood how the new UE5 pipeline works and why it's so groundbreaking.
He isn't even considering the possibility this is a completely new workflow different from what he's used so far.

P40L0 · May 17, 2020

tzare said:
Well, i want new tech to allow for new experiences or new approaches, isn't that the goal? Or improving what we already have.
So new SSD speeds on new consoles will hopefully deliver those new experiences or things now are just not possible,beyond loading times that is what everyone expects as the first true leap.
And while both have awesome HDD specs compared to current gen, one seems to have focused more on this particular part of the hardware. So, they probably have some ideas behind to use that speed. I mean 3 seconds to fill 13 GB is very low ( that is compressed data, and not sure if the standard loading speed, but let's think it is), but in the heat of the action it may be a bit too much. If you need to fill that amount obviously. I think it is obvious that some compromises will have to be made. It can be just some degree of lower detail for one or two seconds (a bit like those famous slow loading textures on some UE based games), or some other subtle changes. I don't know. But i want devs to push the possibilities of the ssd, the same way people expect devs to use those extra TF on XSX for a few extra pixels or frames or second or eye candy. Or you would prefer them to search parity without using the possibilities each hardware provides?
I never said that something is possible on PS5 and not on XSX. But seems obvious that some differences will exist. If those will be noticeable or not, i don't know. Differences will be minimal probably in most cases. Just loading times. Probably the UI on PS5 is designed with ssd in mind and is super fast. Don't know.
And the question you asked, i will formulate differently: if a dev designed something that needed all this ssd speed , and couldn't be replicated on other hardware without important trade offs, should stop just because others will not be able to do experience?
I'll give you an example, not related to this SSD talk: Splinter Cell on XB vs PS2. Same game different experience.

The quantum leap from current ancient 5400 RPM HDD drives to super fast SSDs (and zero I/O bottlenecks, zero throttling, low latency, fast throughput) will undoubtedly and completely change how true next-gen games will be designed for both next gen consoles. This can and should be expected for both.

Expecting real world big differences between a fast SSD and an SSD twice as fast on paper is something we all should stop pretending and narrating, as we all and already seen real world comparisons with every scenario and game possible between them today on PC.

Staying in the "SSD Realm", even between basic SATA SSD and NVMe SSD 6x time faster, all differences are negligible for everything, every task, every game, every workload possible and tested.

Even on 16GB or 24GB of RAM PCs, even with a game as Star Citizen (which, even for DF, is the first true next-gen game impossible to make on current consoles, and created with SSD in mind).

gundamkyoukai · May 17, 2020

Corralx said:
That tweet and the previous one in the thread show he misunderstood how the new UE5 pipeline works and why it's so groundbreaking.
He isn't even considering the possibility this is a completely new workflow different from what he's used so far.

I think you have this wrong he was saying stuff like this would be possible thanks to SSD 2 months ago .

Corralx · May 17, 2020

gundamkyoukai said:
I think you have this wrong he was saying stuff like this would be possible thanks to SSD 2 months ago .

He says "in the trailer there is a clear texture streaming issue that makes it look like NMs have unique surface information" referring to the statues pics comparison, which is wrong as they don't have NM with surface data. He just cannot believe that can be the case.

Also in the previous tweet "They are just good with their wording. 'No *manually* generated LoDs', 'no normal map *baking*'. The data is still there in some form you just don't have to generate it by hand". This is a bit more debatable as some details are not clear yet, but all data we have points to not having normal maps or LODs in *any* form. They're not autogenerated in an incredible good and reliable way. They're not generated at all. It's a completely different approach to a traditional pipe.

Lys Skygge · May 17, 2020

P40L0 said:
The quantum leap from current ancient 5400 RPM HDD drives to super fast SSDs (and zero I/O bottlenecks, zero throttling, low latency, fast throughput) will undoubtedly and completely change how true next-gen games will be designed for both next gen consoles. This can and should be expected for both.

Expecting real world big differences between a fast SSD and an SSD twice as fast on paper is something we all should stop pretending and narrating, as we all and already seen real world comparisons with every scenario and game possible between them today on PC.

Staying in the "SSD Realm", even between basic SATA SSD and NVMe SSD 6x time faster, all differences are negligible for everything, every task, every game, every workload possible and tested.

Even on 16GB or 24GB of RAM PCs, even with a game as Star Citizen (which, even for DF, is the first true next-gen game impossible to make on current consoles, and created with SSD in mind).

We'll just have to wait and see when games designed around SSD start to release.

chris 1515 · May 17, 2020

Corralx said:
That tweet and the previous one in the thread show he misunderstood how the new UE5 pipeline works and why it's so groundbreaking.
He isn't even considering the possibility this is a completely new workflow different from what he's used so far.

Yes, I know. But not all people read the Brian Karis tweet where he explains he did some personal search on the subject for 10 years and another thing is when you read REYES like the system I understand immediately.

Corralx said:
He says "in the trailer there is a clear texture streaming issue that makes it look like NMs have unique surface information" referring to the status pics comparison, which is wrong as they don't have NM with surface data. He just cannot believe that can be the case.

Also in the previous tweet "They are just good with their wording. 'No *manually* generated LoDs', 'no normal map *baking*'. The data is still there in some form you just don't have to generate it by hand". This is a bit more debatable as some details are not clear yet, but all data we have points to not having normal maps or LODs in *any* form. They're not autogenerated in an incredible good and reliable way. They're not generated at all. It's a completely different approach to a traditional pipe.

He is wrong and Eurogame REYES word would have made him aware about micropolygon but after he is not rendering engineer. I am not too but I like technology and like rendering topic.

ILikeFeet · May 17, 2020

the most annoying thing for me about this whole SSD thing is seeing PC hardware channels go "welcome to modern age console gamers" as if they been playin games that aren't fuckin console ports made for HDDs. sadder still I see it from places like Linus and Gamer's Nexus

Penny Royal · May 17, 2020

Shogmaster said:
What I'm saying is 33% RAM advantage should buy you more than 1800p vs 1440p. which is typical of what we get. And sometimes we don't even get that anymore.

Also, I leaned my lesson and will not try to convey any more insider info my friends within Sony tells me if it has any negative connotations for Sony. It's just not worth it since you guys only wants to hear positive insider info and go into mob mentality when you guys here anything negative. It's kinda inspiring in a strange way I guess.

Aren't you the 'smoke and mirrors GoW demo' guy?

Yeah. How did that go again?

tzare · May 17, 2020

P40L0 said:
The quantum leap from current ancient 5400 RPM HDD drives to super fast SSDs (and zero I/O bottlenecks, zero throttling, low latency, fast throughput) will undoubtedly and completely change how true next-gen games will be designed for both next gen consoles. This can and should be expected for both.

Expecting real world big differences between a fast SSD and an SSD twice as fast on paper is something we all should stop pretending and narrating, as we all and already seen real world comparisons with every scenario and game possible between them today on PC.

Staying in the "SSD Realm", even between basic SATA SSD and NVMe SSD 6x time faster, all differences are negligible for everything, every task, every game, every workload possible and tested.

Even on 16GB or 24GB of RAM PCs, even with a game as Star Citizen (which, even for DF, is the first true next-gen game impossible to make on current consoles, and created with SSD in mind).

I expect differences because there's a 2x performance increase on ps5.
You should stop pretending it won't be noticeable, and even more telling other people what to say, because nobody knows. Or can you say you never stated it commented that the extra flops on xsx may mean better visuals, resolution, framerate or whatever than ps5? Or the 10GB of faster ram? Because the forum is full of that. And seems logical, doesn't it?
This is the same, just another part of the hardware. So until we have games built with such speeds in mind we won't know if the gap will be negligible or noticeable.
It is fun because we have pixels counters , like DF , that have to zoom stills to find differences barely noticeable by the naked eye. But we now cannot speculate about a fact, 2x storage speed, and what that may mean in the future.
Unless we can only talk about the 2TF advantage of xsx for some reason i ignore.

And, yes, we have no games today that show any advantage for this ps5 strength. But that is like saying xbx gpu will give equal results as ps4 pro because hollow Knight runs the same on both platforms.

wubalubadubdub · May 17, 2020

I didn't mean the PS5 doesn't have a better SSD, I meant that both Series X and PC have advantages elsewhere. My apologies for the confusion, I realize the comment came off the wrong way. I'll be buying a PS5 day 1, but these "the PS5 will be more powerful than high end PCs," narrative is the same fluff that we get every generation. I buy Sony's platform for excellent first party exclusives, not because it's the most powerful hardware.

Deleted member 51539 · May 17, 2020

Dr Guildo said:
Max PS5' SSD speed is 22GB/s tho.

I don't mean to direct this at you in particular but I'm starting to get annoyed at people using the 22GB/s value.

That's the peak output of the decompressor unit on fringe cases where the data happens to compress well. In typical cases it will output 8-9 GB/. The speed of the SSD itself is 5.5 GB/s

MatthewTrujillo · May 17, 2020

Broken Hope said:
You can't compare PC SSD game differences and compare to next generation, those games aren't designed around having fast storage.

PS5 and XSX games will be.

I don't know why people keep ignoring this. You can't compare them. Games will be designed around these and that's not the case right now. There's going to be a shift in the way devs make and design games to utilize the SSD's and I/O of these consoles.

Shogmaster · May 17, 2020

Kyser73 said:
Aren't you the 'smoke and mirrors GoW demo' guy?

Yeah. How did that go again?

Sony Ninjas haven't caught me yet but I'm constantly on the run! :D

Deleted member 50658 · May 18, 2020

P40L0 said:
Basically:

HDD to fast SSD is an huge, very noticeable, jump for everything;

Fast SSD to Fastest SSD difference is non existent or negligible for any task thrown at it, even the most heavy ones and maxed out gaming on PC (as of Dec 2019)

Other than mere SSD speeds differences, both PS5 and XSX have no I/O bottlenecks, sustained I/O performance, low latency and super high data throughtput among chips, therefore very comparable.

Please everyone, stop making PS5 SSD the new PS3 Cell processor or "secret sauce".

Most probably won't be this big deal, especially for all multiplatform games.

FFS you have already ignored any and all intelligent answer in that other thread you posted not only about how you can't compare games made without ssd's in mind and in no way optimized for them.

We all get it at this point mr Halo man you have a real hate boner for anything SSD related and I really wonder why that is.

Deleted member 50658 · May 18, 2020

Shogmaster said:
Sony Ninjas haven't caught me yet but I'm constantly on the run! :D

I mean they did not have to they were sitting like the rest of us laughing.

EVIL · May 18, 2020

Here is a write up by Veedrac on reddit that goes far more in depth into the technique than I ever could
A lot of it is guess work, but educated guesswork since a lot of people are trying to catch up to the details how epic handles a bunch of things
Lets hope the talk that will come later will go into more detail.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Read the post and the comments, its a very interesting post and it hits on a few interesting things, a few outtakes:

There are two questions here: does the Nanite technology require PS5-tier SSD speeds?, and does this demo require PS5-tier SSD speeds?

The first question is simple: no. As shown above, Nanite is first and foremost a way of storing and rendering geometry. Despite first appearences, this is an especially data-efficient way of storing geometric detail, and should always look more detailed than a normal-map approach at similar file sizes.

Given the expectations for next-gen to run at 4k60, people are understandably worried when this demo ran at 1440p30. Some are even dismissing the overhead outright; if you're lowering the resolution and frame rate so much, what's the point?

Frankly, I have no sympathy. I would much, much rather run games that look like this even at 1080p60 upscaled, than a traditionally-rendered one at 4k60, and this is coming from someone who thinks 1800p on a laptop is too few pixels. If you don't think it looks that good, sorry, but you're wrong.

However, one can make a few inferences about performance scaling. For example, people are talking about turning asset quality down, and rendering fewer triangles. However, because of the way this is being mipmapped and rendered, it's not actually clear that this would efficiently save computation time. I would not be surprised if Nanite, when rendering dense triangles in compute shaders, is closer to fixed cost for a given resolution for rasterization (though shading should still scale). Thus you shouldn't expect this demo to run at 4k just by optimizing the assets.

So... geometry is now a solved problem? What next?
Yes, I honestly, truly think this is the future of rendering. I don't think it's a gimmick, or just a demo turned to max. As far as I can tell, this is real.

Once you have a triangle per pixel, where can you go?

First, performance. From a baseline of 1440p30, DLSS should take us to 4k30, and a 4x GPU performance boost should get us to 4k120. That's that done.

Then, well, I guess you have to find other stuff to do. Full ray tracing, subsurface scattering, better physics, contact deformation. There are still branches to pick. But, really, what would we even do with 200 teraflops of compute? I guess that's for the future to figure out.

Oh, and a quick point about VRAM: it's clear we have enough now. SSDs remove a huge amount of memory pressure, so what we've got seems enough for universal photorealism. Sure, ray tracing or other techniques might turn out to be memory hungry enough to push at the edges, but we're talking maybe factors of two, not 10.

arsene_P5 · May 18, 2020

gundamkyoukai said:
We don't even know how much RAM the PS5 OS use but when talking about RAM the SSD will come into play with how it is used .

I wouldn't expect to much, because RAM is significantly faster and responsiveness would suffer if everything has to go through NAND. You want to reduce write on SSD, aswell.

EVIL
Great post

Dr Guildo · May 18, 2020

Zehzin said:
I don't mean to direct this at you in particular but I'm starting to get annoyed at people using the 22GB/s value.

That's the peak output of the decompressor unit on fringe cases where the data happens to compress well. In typical cases it will output 8-9 GB/. The speed of the SSD itself is 5.5 GB/s

SO 22GB/s is impossible to reach in practice ?

Kittens McMittens · May 18, 2020

Oh wow, I've seen this guys vids before. He does some good explainers on C++.

chris 1515 · May 18, 2020

EVIL said:
Here is a write up by Veedrac on reddit that goes far more in depth into the technique than I ever could
A lot of it is guess work, but educated guesswork since a lot of people are trying to catch up to the details how epic handles a bunch of things
Lets hope the talk that will come later will go into more detail.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Read the post and the comments, its a very interesting post and it hits on a few interesting things, a few outtakes:

He updated because Brian Karis technology is now different

Fargoth's Ring · May 18, 2020

EVIL said:
Here is a write up by Veedrac on reddit that goes far more in depth into the technique than I ever could
A lot of it is guess work, but educated guesswork since a lot of people are trying to catch up to the details how epic handles a bunch of things
Lets hope the talk that will come later will go into more detail.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Read the post and the comments, its a very interesting post and it hits on a few interesting things, a few outtakes:

Thanks for sharing this, it was a very interesting read!

Broken Hope · May 18, 2020

Rumpestump said:
FFS you have already ignored any and all intelligent answer in that other thread you posted not only about how you can't compare games made without ssd's in mind and in no way optimized for them.

We all get it at this point mr Halo man you have a real hate boner for anything SSD related and I really wonder why that is.

I can assure you if the XSX had the SSD advantage it wouldn't be irrelevant.

It's embarrassing watching XSX fans try to make PS5's storage advantage meaningless, like Sony completely over engineered it for shits and giggles.

EVIL · May 18, 2020

chris 1515 said:
He updated because Brian Karis technology is now different

regardless, an interesting thread nonetheless. and I am pretty sure there will be some remnants of this in the tech epic developed and I am very curious to know exactly which path epic took in this.

I hope to see a talk about it very soon

What def should not be understated is what a dramatic shift this is for how the industry deals with geometry in virtual worlds and I am very curious to see how this will shape game engines in the future and I am pretty sure every person who ever had to deal with manually baking maps and authoring various LOD's is extremely happy with this solution.

Game Engine Designer (Hazel, Frostbite) breaks down Unreal 5 demo

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