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nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Thought this deserved its own thread. I love how every step of the demo is explained in accessible layman's terms, to give even those who might not necessarily understand this stuff the context and benefits behind all the individual features, whilst still remaining very technical.

Highly recommend the watch.

 
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thuway

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,168
Pretty great stuff. This is pretty insightful and helps drive home the point how remarkable IO is for the future of gaming.
 

Winnie

Member
Mar 12, 2020
2,626
Pretty good. I just want to see what can make Sony with its SSD that can only run with the PS5 architecture. Exciting times!
 

mario_O

Member
Nov 15, 2017
2,755
That was good. As a layman you can understand what kinda leap we're getting next gen. The super fast SSDs and the GI sure are promising.
 

Uhtred

Alt Account
Banned
May 4, 2020
1,340
He touches up on the issue some of us were discussing in one of the other three threads... Size of the super high quality assets would still be an issue just in terms of file size. Which might mean that while throwing cinema quality assets at the engine might wokr during devleopment, they will still need optimization as part of a final build.
 
OP
OP
nib95

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
He touches up on the issue some of us were discussing in one of the other three threads... Size of the super high quality assets would still be an issue just in terms of file size. Which might mean that while throwing cinema quality assets at the engine might wokr during devleopment, they will still need optimization as part of a final build.

Yeap, he seems to believe this demo alone could be over 100GB. So I really don't know how they'll deal with future next gen game sizes. I hope they can come up with some crazy compression techniques or something otherwise game download and install sizes are going sky high even without the data duplication, just on the back of the quality of the assets.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
Pretty good. I just want to see what can make Sony with its SSD that can only run with the PS5 architecture. Exciting times!

Nothing, the Series X SSD and obviously PC SSDs are just as capable.

I don't think we can make either assumption right now.

Clearly I/O throughput is a big deal next gen. It will enable game design not possible this gen. We don't know where the sweet spot is for I/O speeds in actual games. Likely it will depend on the game and what it's trying to do. In the end, hardware is still about balance. The exponential jump in I/O speeds will remove a bottleneck. It will free up compute once used for decompression. It doesn't compute or draw. Once games with physics, AI, NPCs, geometry, etc are being put together, compute could be the limiting factor well before I/O speeds are. It's exciting for the industry that this removes a bottleneck but I think the system wars bullshit is ruining what should be a great next gen story for everyone.
 

FirewalkR

Member
Oct 27, 2017
695
London
Thought this deserved its own thread. I love how every step of the demo is explained in accessible layman's terms, to give even those who might not necessarily understand this stuff the context and benefits behind all the individual features, whilst still remaining very technical.

Highly recommend the watch.



Watched this earlier and meant to post in one of the threads (think I need to reach 100 posts to be able to create a thread?) and then it escaped my mind. It's quite interesting. He doesn't delve too much into it technically but there's a bit of fresh perspective in there. He mentions at the end that he might do another more detailed vid after some actual tech details come out.

Regarding this last point, I'm not sure if the "more details to come out this week" that Brian Karis mentioned were Digital Foundry's article and articles from some of the other outlets, or if there's an actual GDC talk incoming on YouTube. I guess we'll see.
 

Zelenogorsk

Banned
Mar 1, 2018
1,567
As a current CS student and hobbyist video game programmer I can highly recommend Cherno's C++ videos and his Game Engine videos. His channel is excellent.
 

OgTheEnigma

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,803
Liverpool
He touches up on the issue some of us were discussing in one of the other three threads... Size of the super high quality assets would still be an issue just in terms of file size. Which might mean that while throwing cinema quality assets at the engine might wokr during devleopment, they will still need optimization as part of a final build.
Yeah, he speculated that the demo may be 100s of GB. In eary to mid next gen, it shouldn't be considered acceptable for games to exceed 100GB (looking at you Warzone!).

Later in the gen when console models with 2TB+ are released, and storage upgrades become cheaper, then it should be more viable for games with a lot of data. PS3 was 60GB at launch, and later models were 320GB. Hopefully that kind of storage improvement is possible next gen, if SSDs keep improving their cost per GB at the current high rate.
 

ciddative

Member
Apr 5, 2018
4,632
Super cool video.

If Microsoft and Sony are working closely on UE5 from day 1, first party stuff is going to blow minds
 

GING-SAMA

Banned
Jul 10, 2019
7,846
I don't think we can make either assumption right now.

Clearly I/O throughput is a big deal next gen. It will enable game design not possible this gen. We don't know where the sweet spot is for I/O speeds in actual games. Likely it will depend on the game and what it's trying to do. In the end, hardware is still about balance. The exponential jump in I/O speeds will remove a bottleneck. It will free up compute once used for decompression. It doesn't compute or draw. Once games with physics, AI, NPCs, geometry, etc are being put together, compute could be the limiting factor well before I/O speeds are. It's exciting for the industry that this removes a bottleneck but I think the system wars bullshit is ruining what should be a great next gen story for everyone.

Yes, but the most important thing will be to see the difference between a 2.4 GB / s vs 5.5 GB / s SSD in game.

Because on PC an 860 Evo SSD (550Mb / s) and a 970 EVO Nvme (3.5GB / s) the difference is very minimal while the NVME is 6x faster theoretically.



I'm sure the biggest difference will be on installing a game on the disc, downloads to PS5 will be faster.
 
Dec 8, 2018
1,911
Yes, but the most important thing will be to see the difference between a 2.4 GB / s vs 5.5 GB / s SSD in game.

Because on PC an 860 Evo SSD (550Mb / s) and a 970 EVO Nvme (3.5GB / s) the difference is very minimal while the NVME is 6x faster theoretically.



I'm sure the biggest difference will be on installing a game on the disc, downloads to PS5 will be faster.


Did you not watch the video posted in the op and how he mentions how crucial he thinks the SSD and how blazing fast it have to be to pull this off.

Next gen will be build around SSD and it won't be used simply for loading and storage.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Yeap, he seems to believe this demo alone could be over 100GB. So I really don't know how they'll deal with future next gen game sizes. I hope they can come up with some crazy compression techniques or something otherwise game download and install sizes are going sky high even without the data duplication, just on the back of the quality of the assets.
I think what will happen is that most assets won't be the raw sculpts, just a handful of hero assets like a plot relevant statue or some shit
 

Akela

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,849
Watched this earlier and meant to post in one of the threads (think I need to reach 100 posts to be able to create a thread?) and then it escaped my mind. It's quite interesting. He doesn't delve too much into it technically but there's a bit of fresh perspective in there. He mentions at the end that he might do another more detailed vid after some actual tech details come out.

Regarding this last point, I'm not sure if the "more details to come out this week" that Brian Karis mentioned were Digital Foundry's article and articles from some of the other outlets, or if there's an actual GDC talk incoming on YouTube. I guess we'll see.

I might have imagined it but I think I remember reading that they're doing a more in-depth livestream next week? Epic does a weekly webinar on their Youtube and Twitch accounts - they recently went though the release notes of UE4.25 for example, so they might do a longer talk about it the next time they host one? Really interested to hear how all this stuff works.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,999
I just watched this, didn't know a thread was made, lol.

After the video I came here doing a search for Karis. Nice breakdown. It's nice seeing ppl in the industry, used to be in the industry analyse the clip.
 

CrispyGamer

Banned
Jan 4, 2020
2,774
Awesome channel and great vid..feels good to have a knowledgeable voice on YouTube break the demo down I hope he does more in the future.
 
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Dec 8, 2018
1,911
Didnt they say that the demo ran on todays technology though.

It's a engine made to work on cell phones off course it works on something similar but that does not have to mean it will run the same. Just like you can run a game at 1440p and high settings on one GPU you could run it on something not as beefy at 1440 if you drop everything to low and if you can't stream 500 statues with a 1x1 pixel triangle ratio you could perhaps lower that and the demo would still run fine on a slower ssd.
 

Winnie

Member
Mar 12, 2020
2,626
Nothing, the Series X SSD and obviously PC SSDs are just as capable.
I don't think we can make either assumption right now.

Clearly I/O throughput is a big deal next gen. It will enable game design not possible this gen. We don't know where the sweet spot is for I/O speeds in actual games. Likely it will depend on the game and what it's trying to do. In the end, hardware is still about balance. The exponential jump in I/O speeds will remove a bottleneck. It will free up compute once used for decompression. It doesn't compute or draw. Once games with physics, AI, NPCs, geometry, etc are being put together, compute could be the limiting factor well before I/O speeds are. It's exciting for the industry that this removes a bottleneck but I think the system wars bullshit is ruining what should be a great next gen story for everyone.

Sorry, i worded bad. I wasn't trying to make an assumption, i was just wondering if the diference in speed between PC/XSX SSD and PS5, it's enought to make uniques game desing (al least from first party studios).
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,953
Houston
Yeap, he seems to believe this demo alone could be over 100GB. So I really don't know how they'll deal with future next gen game sizes. I hope they can come up with some crazy compression techniques or something otherwise game download and install sizes are going sky high even without the data duplication, just on the back of the quality of the assets.
Wouldn't that be because they are using 8k assets, don't have to worry about user SSD free space, and if the engine is really for hardcore scaling just have it drop down to 1440 or 4k assets and size is just far lower
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,783
Yeap, he seems to believe this demo alone could be over 100GB. So I really don't know how they'll deal with future next gen game sizes. I hope they can come up with some crazy compression techniques or something otherwise game download and install sizes are going sky high even without the data duplication, just on the back of the quality of the assets.
I am pretty sure he means source data, obviously it will be compiled and compressed heavily, and if the technique is what I think it is - storing geometry in textures - then that is a pretty good thing since image compression is a well studies problem and is very effective.
 

CrispyGamer

Banned
Jan 4, 2020
2,774
Can't wait for the UE5 breakdown from Epic i want to see how it scales with compute and how it scales with I/O. I wonder what dev team will come up with a 22GB/s compression solution first and what that actual means for geometry and textures.. I'm guessing UE5 has to scale up pretty high for current and future PCs this is pretty exciting times..
 

Tomo815

Banned
Jul 19, 2019
1,534
At 24.51, he says that the data is being streamed from the disk - https://youtu.be/9PmjQvowfAI?t=1491

Could it mean that it wont be necessary to install the whole game onto the hard drive like we are doing now?

Edit: sorry I completely misunderstood, he was talking about the Hard Disk most likely.
 
OP
OP
nib95

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Yes, but the most important thing will be to see the difference between a 2.4 GB / s vs 5.5 GB / s SSD in game.

Because on PC an 860 Evo SSD (550Mb / s) and a 970 EVO Nvme (3.5GB / s) the difference is very minimal while the NVME is 6x faster theoretically.



I'm sure the biggest difference will be on installing a game on the disc, downloads to PS5 will be faster.


With cross-gen games, I can absolutely see this being the case, since these games are designed with HDD's in mind, hence not nearly as taxing in terms of SSD bandwidth.

Where things may get trickier is predicting how the difference will fair in next-gen only titles that have NVMe drives (not Sata SSD) as the baseline, and are designed around facilitating ultra fast SSD's the way this Unreal 5 demo appears to be.

In other words, they're going to be relying heavily on constant streaming of super high quality assets and subsequently ones with much larger data sizes.

Star Citizen is the only PC game I know that is designed with Sata SSD's (not NVMe) in mind as the baseline, and that basically doesn't run properly on normal HDD's, where you get awful frame tanks, stuttering, freezing etc. In other words, it's data streaming pipeline is designed with Sata SSD as the baseline, but not NVMe.

Now imagine games (much like this demo) designed around NVMe drives as the baseline instead of Sata drives, and designed to scale in a way that delivers more asset quality or density, the faster your drive or memory or whatever, can stream it in.

How much data could devs feed it? And could the speed of your drive (along with GPU/CPU performance and ram amount) in someway dictate how many assets, or how much geometry, density etc was possible on the said platform? These are the questions we don't yet have answers to.

We also don't know how the Series X drive (or PC SSD's for that matter) might affect multiplatform devs making better use of the PS5's SSD, as they still have to cater to the lowest common denominator, so perhaps it's an advantage we only see in first party titles, who knows.

But what we do know is that video game devs have stated the faster the SSD they can get, the better, the more video ram the better too (eg, diminishing the need for SSD altogether), the more GPU performance the better and so on (all within mass market budgeting of course). Some devs are always going to find ways to maximise whatever ram, SSD bandwidth, GPU performance etc they have available, and I'm sure next gen these SSD speeds, ram amounts etc will all seem paltry or slow in comparison.
 
Last edited:
Jan 21, 2019
2,902
Another great video, which goes more indepth and draws comparisons and relationships to other stuff in the industry.



I love the end. "Dream bigger"
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
Sorry, i worded bad. I wasn't trying to make an assumption, i was just wondering if the diference in speed between PC/XSX SSD and PS5, it's enought to make uniques game desing (al least from first party studios).
Nothing to be sorry about. Wasn't going at either of you or anyone in particular. Seems like versus talk creeps into every one of these conversations despite not having any games to compare. Sony's 1st party will likely be doing batshit crazy things in open world games now that I/O is no longer a bottleneck. Giving any really talented, well funded team with time to take advantage of the new I/O speeds and asset streaming capabilities will be fun to see.
 

mcruz79

Member
Apr 28, 2020
2,795
Great video...
that final part from the tech demo with her flying, that part is gameplay to or some kind of cutscene?