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jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
I disagree, leaks get blown up all over social media, not just on enthusiast websites like this. One shouldn't have to avoid all social media just to avoid E3 leaks. I think the analogy holds pretty well in that respect.
That's their choice. It's always their choice. The internet doesnt censor itself to the specific needs of every individual person. They have to weigh whether it's more worth it to stay engaged on social media vs possibly spoiling games for themselves and vice versa. Its exhausting reading posts from people acting like its beyond their control to not read spoilers because they shouldnt have to stay off the internet to avoid them. When, actually, yes that's how it works.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,743
That's their choice. It's always their choice. The internet doesnt censor itself to the specific needs of every individual person. They have to weigh whether it's more worth it to stay engaged on social media vs possibly spoiling games for themselves and vice versa. Its exhausting reading posts from people acting like its beyond their control to not read spoilers because they shouldnt have to stay off the internet to avoid them. When, actually, yes that's how it works.
Asking people to avoid the internet is just dumb, that's not the real world works. And arguing in a thread where dev's are actually arguing the real affects of leaks and hoiw damaging it it to them and making it about how people if they don't want leaks should just avoid the internet is weird - like c'mon, it doesn't matter if the consumers wanted the leak info or not, the dev's still get affected.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Asking people to avoid the internet is just dumb, that's not the real world works. And arguing in a thread where dev's are actually arguing the real affects of leaks and hoiw damaging it it to them and making it about how people if they don't want leaks should just avoid the internet is weird - like c'mon, it doesn't matter if the consumers wanted the leak info or not, the dev's still get affected.
Did you just tell me the real world internet doesnt spoil things for people? Because if you weren't joking this conversation between the two of us is over.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,441
In my experience, leaks affect the marketing and publishing departments way more than devs like me, they stand to lose SO MUCH MONEY by having their marketing strategy spoiled and its like, several people's ENTIRE job and passion. For me it's just like, at worst people like the game less than they would have if it was presented to them in a cool surprising teaser instead of read off a piece of paper with some early-in-dev screenshots. But even an official announcement can go either way with fans anyway, so whatever. Plus people don't tend to be like "WHO MODELLED THAT GARBAGE TIER PETUNIA BUSH IN THE ENVIRONMENT ART??" so my morale is pretty safe.

The worst kind of leak though is having SOMEONE ELSE'S work (eg: new console/tech info, movie tie in) spoiled through your own studio. That obviously takes down the reputation of the entire studio all because of one person (and it might not even be someone employed there). And not being trusted means you have to make your game with more and more hurdles and less information. Like boy I don't really want to waste half a day getting access to the new super secure vault of reference material I need to do my work, yknow?

Still, honestly this whole thing about these journalists saying "oh ACTUALLY its just an ADVERT why would you be upset about adverts being spoiled?" is a really shitty take and makes me so mad. Of course it's an advert, of course all of E3 is just adverts. Don't bloody patronise consumers, playing the "getting excited about corporate products is so gauche" when you're literally the one who makes that sweet clickbait money off stealing the thunder of these "JUST ADVERTS". And speaking entirely as a consumer/gamer, maybe I just LIKE SUPRISES okay?? I don't hate on journalists for doing their job but don't give me that "ACTUALLY SPOILERS/LEAKS ARE NOBLE AND CONSUMER FRIENDLY BECAUSE NOW WE GET TO TELL YOU WHAT TO THINK INSTEAD OF THOSE BIG COMPANIES" swill.

That last paragraph is a great summary of why those Jason tweets didn't sit well with a lot of people no matter how many "you guys are getting it wrong" follow up posts he makes.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,743
Did you just tell me the real world internet doesnt spoil things for people? Because if you weren't joking this conversation between the two of us is over.
It does but people can't avoid the internet either, it's needed for every day life, which is why it's dumb advise - again, missing the point cus you are bringing up avoiding spoilers in a thread where it doesn't matter if the person wanted to get "spoiled" or not as the leak still has negative affects on the devs - it doesn't matter if you were fine with the leaks, the devs are still negatively affected.
 
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carlosrox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,270
Vancouver BC
In my experience, leaks affect the marketing and publishing departments way more than devs like me, they stand to lose SO MUCH MONEY by having their marketing strategy spoiled and its like, several people's ENTIRE job and passion. For me it's just like, at worst people like the game less than they would have if it was presented to them in a cool surprising teaser instead of read off a piece of paper with some early-in-dev screenshots. But even an official announcement can go either way with fans anyway, so whatever. Plus people don't tend to be like "WHO MODELLED THAT GARBAGE TIER PETUNIA BUSH IN THE ENVIRONMENT ART??" so my morale is pretty safe.

The worst kind of leak though is having SOMEONE ELSE'S work (eg: new console/tech info, movie tie in) spoiled through your own studio. That obviously takes down the reputation of the entire studio all because of one person (and it might not even be someone employed there). And not being trusted means you have to make your game with more and more hurdles and less information. Like boy I don't really want to waste half a day getting access to the new super secure vault of reference material I need to do my work, yknow?

Still, honestly this whole thing about these journalists saying "oh ACTUALLY its just an ADVERT why would you be upset about adverts being spoiled?" is a really shitty take and makes me so mad. Of course it's an advert, of course all of E3 is just adverts. Don't bloody patronise consumers, playing the "getting excited about corporate products is so gauche" when you're literally the one who makes that sweet clickbait money off stealing the thunder of these "JUST ADVERTS". And speaking entirely as a consumer/gamer, maybe I just LIKE SUPRISES okay?? I don't hate on journalists for doing their job but don't give me that "ACTUALLY SPOILERS/LEAKS ARE NOBLE AND CONSUMER FRIENDLY BECAUSE NOW WE GET TO TELL YOU WHAT TO THINK INSTEAD OF THOSE BIG COMPANIES" swill.

Yep.
 

John Harker

Knows things...
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,360
Santa Destroy
People have lost their jobs, and KPIs have been failed to be met upon announce which can /I've seen trickle into impacting peoples bonuses. I don't mean ceo's, I mean every day people who depend on the money.

Not to mention the anger of executives and the tears of the teams responsible for building announcement plans and assets, like flushing months of their lives away.

These are not toys to many but careers.
It's not gonna peasant.
 

DJwest

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,152
I was part of a studio when a project leaked a few years ago.

It was awful, the entire studio basically suspended operations and went on lockdown until the leaker was caught.
Without going into details of the studio or the project, I'm curious ; how was the leaker caught?
 

carlosrox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,270
Vancouver BC
There's always gotta be the first person to report leaks and that person is complicit with the leaker as far as I'm concerned. And others reporting on it are just rewarding that behavior and ensuring the leaker get what they want.

I really wish leaks that fuck companies over just weren't allowed. And that if sites have to run that shit that they don't plaster it all over their websites. Same with threads here. I've seen leaks here contained WITHIN a thread and not in the thread title. If it has to be done, do it like that. Don't make it front page material.

People act like like leaks MUST be reported and MUST be shared with clickbait titles. No, noone has to do anything, people CHOOSE to treat leaks how they want to.

"I totally don't condone leaks, but I will totally report on them and plaster them all over my website".
 

Deleted member 4093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,671
In my experience, leaks affect the marketing and publishing departments way more than devs like me, they stand to lose SO MUCH MONEY by having their marketing strategy spoiled and its like, several people's ENTIRE job and passion. For me it's just like, at worst people like the game less than they would have if it was presented to them in a cool surprising teaser instead of read off a piece of paper with some early-in-dev screenshots. But even an official announcement can go either way with fans anyway, so whatever. Plus people don't tend to be like "WHO MODELLED THAT GARBAGE TIER PETUNIA BUSH IN THE ENVIRONMENT ART??" so my morale is pretty safe.

The worst kind of leak though is having SOMEONE ELSE'S work (eg: new console/tech info, movie tie in) spoiled through your own studio. That obviously takes down the reputation of the entire studio all because of one person (and it might not even be someone employed there). And not being trusted means you have to make your game with more and more hurdles and less information. Like boy I don't really want to waste half a day getting access to the new super secure vault of reference material I need to do my work, yknow?

Still, honestly this whole thing about these journalists saying "oh ACTUALLY its just an ADVERT why would you be upset about adverts being spoiled?" is a really shitty take and makes me so mad. Of course it's an advert, of course all of E3 is just adverts. Don't bloody patronise consumers, playing the "getting excited about corporate products is so gauche" when you're literally the one who makes that sweet clickbait money off stealing the thunder of these "JUST ADVERTS". And speaking entirely as a consumer/gamer, maybe I just LIKE SUPRISES okay?? I don't hate on journalists for doing their job but don't give me that "ACTUALLY SPOILERS/LEAKS ARE NOBLE AND CONSUMER FRIENDLY BECAUSE NOW WE GET TO TELL YOU WHAT TO THINK INSTEAD OF THOSE BIG COMPANIES" swill.
Then the same journalist will report on "layoffs" and "horrible working conditions" but will leak a whole game for shits and giggles. "ITs aN bIG AdvErtisemeNt!"
 

SinkFla

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,446
Pensacola, Fl
Did you just tell me the real world internet doesnt spoil things for people? Because if you weren't joking this conversation between the two of us is over.

Conversation =/= talking AT people with tired, already long argued talking points. If you try to have a two way conversation maybe you'll understand there's more to the problem than spoilerphobia? And there's a reason why people have separate threads for things with spoilers on Era: they're not dicks. You can be as pedantic as you please and one could argue in circles over the futility of leak avoidance while remaining online but that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.
 

Brakke

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,798
People have lost their jobs, and KPIs have been failed to be met upon announce which can /I've seen trickle into impacting peoples bonuses. I don't mean ceo's, I mean every day people who depend on the money.

Not to mention the anger of executives and the tears of the teams responsible for building announcement plans and assets, like flushing months of their lives away.

These are not toys to many but careers.
It's not gonna peasant.

These are all decisions made within the company. Solve all of them by,

  • Recalibrate KPIs.
  • Pay "every day people" more stable salaries.
  • Don't hire angry / abusive executives.
  • Develop a culture in which crying over a leak doesn't make sense.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Conversation =/= talking AT people with tired, already long argued talking points. If you try to have a two way conversation maybe you'll understand there's more to the problem than spoilerphobia? And there's a reason why people have separate threads for things with spoilers on Era: they're not dicks. You can be as pedantic as you please and one could argue in circles over the futility of leak avoidance while remaining online but that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.
The conversation I was having in this thread was a response to another poster so instead of trying to tell me what the conversation is or isnt about take it up with the person i was responding to.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,783
These are all decisions made within the company. Solve all of them by,

  • Recalibrate KPIs.
  • Pay "every day people" more stable salaries.
  • Don't hire angry / abusive executives.
  • Develop a culture in which crying over a leak doesn't make sense.
nice wish list, but at the same time the most naive take on this I have yet read. If things where that simple it would have already been done.
Really comical reading you reply to an actual developer and then pretty much saying.. well ehh then just dont do those things, like duh..
 
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Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,362
And at that point we were unclear whether Microsoft would pull us off the stage completely because of the leak - so yeah, it's just a huge gut punch, to be frank.
That would have been incredibly shitty of Microsoft, though. I get being upset at the leak, but the bigger problem appear to be the execs (or bigger publishers) fucking over the lower employees (or devs) about it.

nice wish list, but at the same time the most naive take on this I have yet read. If things where that simple it would have already been done.
Really comical reading you reply to an actual developer and then pretty much saying.. well ehh then just dont do those things, like duh..
See above. If execs fuck over employees (whether by denying them bonuses or making their jobs more difficult or stressful or whatnot) over the results of a leak, which are getting more and more inevitable and are beyond the employee's control... it's not exactly fair to tell them "well, just hope no one leaks the product and you're good", is it? It doesn't mean that they are wrong to be upset at leaks, because just the surprise being ruined can be a bummer by itself, but if it ruins careers, then it's symptomatic of a much deeper work culture issue.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,783
That would have been incredibly shitty of Microsoft, though. I get being upset at the leak, but the bigger problem appear to be the execs (or bigger publishers) fucking over the lower employees (or devs) about it.


See above. If execs fuck over employees (whether by denying them bonuses or making their jobs more difficult or stressful or whatnot) over the results of a leak, which are getting more and more inevitable and are beyond the employee's control... it's not exactly fair to tell them "well, just hope no one leaks the product and you're good", is it? It doesn't mean that they are wrong to be upset at leaks, because just the surprise being ruined can be a bummer by itself, but if it ruins careers, then it's symptomatic of a much deeper work culture issue.
name me one industry where there would not be a witchunt to find people responsible for loosing millions of dollars.
 

Arm Van Dam

self-requested ban
Banned
Mar 30, 2019
5,951
Illinois
I have a buddy who works in the industry who thinks that leaks are like the much smaller scale versions of the Pentagon Papers and the Plame Affair except multiplied and pop up like roaches at any time.
 

John Harker

Knows things...
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,360
Santa Destroy
These are all decisions made within the company. Solve all of them by,

  • Recalibrate KPIs.
  • Pay "every day people" more stable salaries.
  • Don't hire angry / abusive executives.
  • Develop a culture in which crying over a leak doesn't make sense.

You don't manage a company I take it.

People could ya know, just not leak
 
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Deleted member 40102

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 19, 2018
3,420
Leakers are one of the most selfish people imo. They break and betray company that feeds them just to get credits for their leaks maybe even money too.
 

Striferser

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,599
These are all decisions made within the company. Solve all of them by,

  • Recalibrate KPIs.
  • Pay "every day people" more stable salaries.
  • Don't hire angry / abusive executives.
  • Develop a culture in which crying over a leak doesn't make sense.

Leak could still happen even with all that fixed you know...

>develop a culture in which crying over a leak doesn't make sense

Yeah, not happening, can't really control people emotion you know. Some people really invested in their work.
 

Brakke

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,798
Yeah, not happening, can't really control people emotion you know. Some people really invested in their work.

Lots of devs are invested in their work and they do their work in public. Secrecy isn't a necessary precondition for pride.

If nobody expects the work to be secret, nobody would be upset if it leaks.
 

SinkFla

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,446
Pensacola, Fl
"man I can't wait to play this new game that I already know everything about since they've taken a new strategy of walking us through game development from conception to release in hopes of avoiding spoilers".

"Hey guys we're officially announcing Avengers Endgame today. You can find the full script online after this trailer! Enjoy!"

Wut.
 

Mariolee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,310
This thread needs a boost especially in light of the ceast and desist sent to Sabi to stop her from leaking Nintendo's Direct. Leaks have consequences.
 

GJ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,792
The Netherlands
I remember years ago when Breaking Bad was the big thing everybody watched I watched every single episode the moment it came put, and I absolutely loved having to wait a week to be able to see the next one. Why? I remember this episode that ended with a cliffhanger in the middle of a shooting. Immediately after the episode ended fans started to create theories with screenshots of a top down view with arrows pointing at who was shooting at who and stuff like that. Other people commented about how the wind would slightly change the direction of the bullets, so person A might actually hit person C in stead of B etc. Those moments of speculations added a lot to my excitement to watch the next episode, if only to find out if my theories, or the ones I read about online, were true. The same thing happened years later with the first season of Westworld, where 3 or 4 episodes in I thought I figured out pretty much every big twist of the show, so that added a lot to my excitement for the next episode once again. I wanted to see if I was right, and I had a whole week to think about possible theories of stuff that could happen in the next episode. Now compare that to a TV series on Netflix, where you can just watch the whole season at once. A lot of that speculating with fans on message boards, and thinking up theories, would just disappear. You can just watch the next episode and find out what happens. I honestly am a lot less hyped, and cliffhangers really don't do anything for me, when I can just press a button and watch the next episode.

Now compare this to, let's say the From x George R. R. Martin leak. That information leaked and we as a community immediately started speculating. A lot of us didn't believe it, but others came up with theories about how it could work. It was a really interesting and fun time for me and I really loved reading all of the posts in the thread and it made me super excited to find out if the game was actually real or not. Then a couple of days ago the key art leaked and it was pretty much confirmed to be real, and my excitement shot through the roof. Not only was the game real, but we were going to see a trailer in a couple of days! Then today the trailer dropped and I loved it. Of course, I don't know how I would've reacted if I didn't know that it existed at all, but knowing myself I would probably be confused at first, and a bit mad/disappointed after that all we got was a CGI trailer with no date or even release window. But now, I had all this time to warm up to the idea, get excited to maybe get an early look at the game at E3, speculate with you guys about if the game was real or not etc. All that stuff really added to the experience for me, where if I didn't know anything of the game, I probably wouldn't be as hyped as I am now, because I would've missed all those weeks/months of pre-trailer buildup.

This could just be me, and I totally get that From would've wanted today to be the first the world heard about the game, but I just wanna give some insight about how to the consumer, or at least me, leaks like this aren't always a bad thing. They can create hype, they can create a fanbase before it's even announced, they can warm people up to a strange concept (for example Mario x Rabbids) and so on. I totally get that they usually are marketing disasters, especially the really early leaks, heck, I wouldn't want any of my art to leak before it's finished, but in certain instances, for certain people, there are upsides to leaks like this.

For example the upcoming Nintendo Direct. Not knowing if Animal Crossing will be there is killing me. I haven't had an AC on the Wii U, and I've been playing New Leaf for 6 years or so now, a new game is long overdue. But all Nintendo gives us is a vague 2019 window, and 6 months in they haven't shown a single thing of the actual game. I'd rather have "sorry, no Animal Crossing this Direct" than not knowing if it's going to be there. I would've loved it if last year when they announced it, they would've said "we will show it at E3", in stead of staying quiet like this. In this instance, a leak would really help calm a fan base down that has been waiting on information on a game for years. Just knowing if you're going to see something you really want to see is better than not knowing if it's going to be there. At least it is for me. Then again, Iam someone who fucking hates Christmas presents. I'd rather know a month early what I'm going to get, so I can spend the entire month building up excitement until the moment I can finally have it, than knowing I'm getting 'something' and having to live a month with an uncertain feeling if it's even something I want, or if it's something I may already have etc. Maybe that's because of my autism, haha, but yeah... This post has been going on for way too long now, haha, butI just wanted to give some examples of how leaks can be a positive thing and create a lot of hype and excitement for some people, so even though I totally get that devs don't like leaks, there will always be people who get extra excited to actually see the project, and to me that's a positive thing :).

edit: Adding to this; leaking a title or a short description or something is a totally different beast for me than actually leaking a trailer or gameplay months in advance. I personally wouldn't want that, ever. Show me the product/art/game/whatever it is when it's ready to be shown. But knowing something exists beforehand rarely does me personally any harm, and usually only helps to get me excited to finally see it.
 
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OP
OP
sn00zer

sn00zer

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,095
RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE
I thought this thread might be good to bring back up leading into next gen announcements. Some really interesting tidbits throughout.