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Soupman Prime

The Fallen
Nov 8, 2017
8,555
Boston, MA
jschreier's tweet just feels kinda disrespectful to the people working in said projects, like he knows better than them
Just feels weird. Yeah everyone is anti corporation and he gets points for that but at the end of the day there are people who worked on it. It's their hard work getting leaked. So I'd understand why they'd be upset or disappointed by their work being leaked which sometimes can end up hurting them.

These days everyone runs with the negative. Just look at the Avengers game, it gets compared to Destiny or a GAAS and it's looked upon in a bad way before it's even officially shown.
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,768
hmm.. now i'm curious if there's ever been a leak that made the game be taken out of context, like a screenshot or something, and basically ruined the reception of the game?
 

Arex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,493
Indonesia
Depends on what kind of leaks. Internal leaks can sometimes jeopardize developers relation with the publishers.
These E3 leaks concern more on the marketing teams and/or the higher ups I suppose, so probably not much direct effects on the devs themselves. Of course I'd prefer to see the reactions from the players on proper release of infos / streams instead of leaks.

The only leaks I don't mind and kinda support is leaks of cancelled / unreleased games. A lot of work went into some games to end up never seeing the day. Some of the games I've worked on and got cancelled /unreleased I kinda want the world to see haha :P
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,768
I don't think it helps much to announce a game well ahead of it being shown at all. Games look ugly and broken very early on in development, so if you just showed a logo 2 years ahead of time, and spent that marketing money, would it be worth it? I'm not sure. People may just forget about it, or post "what ever happened to ____?" threads. Not seeing a game for a long time after announcement might have people lose confidence in the title, because it's taking too long.

People generally don't know how games are made, so they don't realize that the game is going to take a really long time to get made, even in the case of small indie games. It makes more marketing sense to announce it closer to release, when the media they can release is indicative of the final product, and that excitement can directly lead to sales in the long term.

The Marvel example is flawed, because they're the biggest game in town for movies. Not all studios can do that. If we announced 5 game titles with no screenshots, and spent money on the announcement with nothing to show, people would ignore us, and we would've wasted a bunch of money on promotion.
There is an example of this that people forget. Nintendo announces Fire Emblem x Shin Megami Tensei as just that. A title screen. And the internet went INSANE for like three years imagining what they were getting how great it was gonna be etc. And then when the actual game born of that idea released folks lost their shit as it wasn't at all what most envisioned.
 

Dalcop

Member
Nov 28, 2017
347
I really don't get your second point... unhealthy to not want? What?
Unhealthy to not want (information on, reveals of, to hear about, etc.) what developers have been working on. It was a paraphrase of a sentiment some journalists have expressed. I tried to be fair in preserving their meaning.
 

Christo750

Member
May 10, 2018
4,263
In the way games are developed you simply cannot avoid downgrades later down the pipeline since the game you first show is never the game you end up with. Development is incredibly dynamic.
The only way to avoid it is to release the first trailer far later in the processes.
Then release the first trailer far later in the process. Sounds amazing, actually.
 

Porky

Circumventing ban with an alt account
Banned
Mar 16, 2019
422
These kind of threads really highlight which posters have any idea/experience of how a professional/corporate company structure works and who works/is impacted by different aspects of a product.
 

Kuga

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,263
Hell yeah its marketing, they are the tool we use to get the most people to see our game that we have spent years making. We the creators want to show off our game the way it is intended to be shown off. The things you see as lies with Anthem is simply a result of the Game development industry being incredibly dynamic and as I said before, a game can change radically mid development. If you would see the changes that sometimes are made it would make your head spin and make you wish you could enjoy that first reveal as a consumer because its a messy process filled with heavy emotions, hard decisions and chaos all to find what we sensed when we started this mad journey of making a game.
To be clear -- I consider Anthem's E3 marketing to be straight-up lies. The trailer egregiously misrepresented the game. But that situation is an extreme example and isn't applicable to most games. The reveal of 'most games' are generally somewhere between honest and cherry picked bullshots, and I understand the importance of getting the message right.

My objection is with people who take issue with game journalists reporting on leaks... Leakers are going to reveal stuff whether or not a game publication writes a story about it or not. Journalists are just doing their job to report the news. Additionally, it's the developer and publisher's responsibility to prevent leaks, not the news media. There's plenty of reasons to be critical of game journalists, but reporting on leaks isn't one of them.
 

KITPUNK

Member
Oct 28, 2017
211
Canada
Leaking has huge implications to the team on a personal level. While I haven't had it to any projects I've worked on, I've certainly had it to friends at other studios where their projects got leaked early (screenshots, press material, etc). Those leaks were devastating to the team and completely demoralizing. I've had friends cry over seeing their hard work just spread across the web by some foreign gaming site or random forum leaker.

There are genuine people behind these projects, not all with multi-million dollar marketing budgets (keep in mind that leaking does have financial impact on the studio, regardless of size.) and to see all their excitement to share their work with the world get taken away because some rando wants their moment in the spotlight, it's heartbreaking. I understand the point on news sites reporting on it, if they are given the information in which they themselves are not breaking any NDA's, then I cannot fault them for doing their job, morally it's up to them to report on it.

As a game fan, I dislike having these announcements spoiled for me before the event.
 
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TheFurizzlyBear

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,447
I think the anti-leak turn that is currently happening stronger than ever based in the more empathetic culture that seems to be growing in the gaming community. With all the discussion of the human angle of development, with discussion of crunch, unions, workplace harassment and other similar topics its changing people's perspectives on certain topics. I do believe there is a little selfishness behind fans wanting to keep E3 free since this is not an issue any other time of year. In the end though I believe this is part of a larger gaming community shift in a positive direction becoming more developer sympathetic
 

MysticGon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,285
This thread is great. Good to get both sides of the fence. Gamers love them, devs/pubs hate them and journalists are literally the messengers be shot. But breaching trust in any form is a shitty thing to do.

I don't think it helps much to announce a game well ahead of it being shown at all. Games look ugly and broken very early on in development, so if you just showed a logo 2 years ahead of time, and spent that marketing money, would it be worth it? I'm not sure. People may just forget about it, or post "what ever happened to ____?" threads. Not seeing a game for a long time after announcement might have people lose confidence in the title, because it's taking too long.

People generally don't know how games are made, so they don't realize that the game is going to take a really long time to get made, even in the case of small indie games. It makes more marketing sense to announce it closer to release, when the media they can release is indicative of the final product, and that excitement can directly lead to sales in the long term.

The Marvel example is flawed, because they're the biggest game in town for movies. Not all studios can do that. If we announced 5 game titles with no screenshots, and spent money on the announcement with nothing to show, people would ignore us, and we would've wasted a bunch of money on promotion.

Movies are ugly while in gestation as well, but for fans of the special features section of their video discs we love hearing about the production side of things. Following along for every bit of news is fun. I think there is opportunity there.

I remember people gave Jurassic World's first trailer shit for the ugly CGI but it improved with every trailer and the movie really was a hit. Leaking key story elements is terrible because you want people to see the movie but trying to control every aspect in the age of social media...

Sure companies would be shitty if their Super Bowl ads leak early but thats because they spent a lot of money on it and it robs them of some media buzz. Hype and peer pressure do yield results. 2 weeks before the GoT finale I hadn't started the series but constant recommendations made me pop on the first episode and after a few sleepless nights I was ready to watch the finale like everyone else. Hype is an effective tool to have at your disposal and advertising is really your only way to control it until word of mouth kicks in.

There is a lot of money in it but I think the film industry has an healthier attitude towards the flow of information, probably because it's harder to hide what you are doing when you have to go somewhere to shoot with an small army.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
Somebody in the other thread said, "My head sides with Team Schreier and my heart sides with Team Balrog"


Well, that's the point.

I'm giving my personal view, not my team's or my employer's or my industry's.

Stripped of emotional response, feeling, loyalty, excitement, surprise, curiosity and all the other highly personal and subjective states a consumer might have, of course there's probably some sort of an argument to suggest that you "shouldn't" feel a certain way about a product designed almost 100% to evoke an emotional response. But we have posters in the other thread berating people for even wanting a surprise. Yelling past each other to demand that a player is exhibiting stockholmn syndrome because they don't want a story or feature spoiled before the event they have planned to watch on Sunday.

I can't really accede to that kind of view. It's not any of your business, is about the best thing I can say to people literally demanding that nobody should wish to be surprised or delighted.

I would certainly never tell you that you should or had to enjoy a surprise, that's equally ridiculous. If you want to read a spoiler or leak thread, who am I to tell you not to. But if my position is that I'd rather those things didn't leak, through nefarious, sneaky, lame, sometimes criminal, sometimes accidental, sometimes incompetent reasons, then I'm not sure why that would set me in opposition to you. That position should be perfectly underdstandable. I'd rather it didn't leak. I don't want you jailed for watching that trailer, or prosecuted for posting something you came by legally or ethically. I'd rather you didn't retweet them or post spoilers, but that's about the end of my feeling about that angle as it relates to a civilian consumer of the information.


So partly I'd say that if you eliminate fraudulent claims or false and misleading "reveals" for very obvious reasons - then you still have to make a case against the financial and marketing rationale. That is -- to answer a question from another poster in that thread, why shouldn't good or honest games be marketed in this way in 2019? We have excellent evidence to show that this kind of marketing can be very successful if done right. So movies, games, cars, music and many other industries continue to use it because they have inrefutable evidence and numbers showing that it DOES work. It's not the only way and there's no rule preventing other companies within any of those industries from taking other successful approaches - and they do - all the time. This is not a practice that automatically harms anyone - consumer or developer. If it's done wrong, sure, no good, but that's true of everything from tying your shoelaces to going to the bathroom at night.


Now, as for why it sucks for a developer? Well it's obvious. We took a job knowing this was part of its theater and we worked long hours in tandem with our colleagues to make sure that this piece of the art is as suprising and delightful as possible - and knowing that the release and joy of suprise is almost entirely reliant on the mystery and excitement leading up to that, then those months of work, late nights and passionate advocacy for your part of the project, are at best, hugely corroded and at worst, ruined. So you don't have to have a single drop of sympathy for a developer whose work leaked in an untimely fashion, but you also have no right to tell another type of fan (or its developer) how they should feel about it

-- and if your argument continues to be that "games should not be marketed like this, period," then I'm afraid the onus is on you to show receipts for that, because the simultaneous views, box office receipts, ticket sales, pre-order numbers, general enthusiasm measured across broad spectra of media and NPD results are all receipts that can be traced back to the nature and success of a reveal. They are not the only outcome of that, but we can measure the connection.

And if there's another more philosophical argument about the nature of secrecy versus openness, then it should not be applied to entertainment designed to evoke an emotional response.

And reporters have a responsibility to report the truth. If something happens, then it's their responsibility to report it. If a trailer leaks, of course they are going to report it. I can't think of a single time this has happened, but I wanted to provide an extreme example where I think no reasonable purpose would be served. But when that veers into the deliberate "investigation" of a mere story element or upcoming game reveal where the investigation becomes the deliberate and legally problematic (theft/trespass etc) exposure of something that serves no public interest or good (such as a loot box scandal or predatory feature) and actively undermines the art itself in a scenario where it would otherwise not have surfaced till it was supposed to, then that becomes something more like vandalism. Or the naked pursuit of commerce. That's the difference between the papparazzi snapping pictures of Tom Brady wearing Uggs to the mall, and a photographer hiding in his crawlspace to snap pictures of Tom Brady showering in his Uggs. Which he does.


1. Don't tell other poeple how to feel about entertainment
2. Don't ruin things out of spite
3. Don't steal or cheat or trespass to leak entertainment
4. Prove the case you're making with data or facts
5. If something has already leaked, have at it
6. If you HAVE to leak, don't merely shart it into the world for the lulz - do something CREATIVE.
 

Mikebison

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,036
Jason forever trying to argue that leaks are fine because he's still salty he's blacklisted by Bethesda and can't understand why.

Like if he wants to do that, cool, but don't act surprised when they want nothing to do with you anymore.
 

piratepwnsninja

Lead Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
3,811
I've been in games for 15 years, and have seen my share of leaks and what impact they can have on a team.

As others have pointed out, most comparisons to Hollywood aren't really applicable. Yes, we know about movies long before we ever get a trailer, and even sometimes before we even know what the movie is about. The creation of a movie is nowhere near as fluid a process as making a game. Movies have a very linear process. Do things go wrong on set? Sure. But those issues are minuscule in comparison to what happens to a game throughout the course of its development.

Game development is messy. Almost every game, regardless of quality, is something I view as a minor miracle. From the one person indie team to huge AAA games. What happens behind the scenes on a daily basis is crazy. New tech limitation? Have to change the feature that relied on it somewhat, or choose to invest time in the tech, which then makes the team ask what falls off the schedule due to that. A mechanic isn't working out? Have to change the mechanic, or choose to further refine it, hoping you aren't just wasting time. This has been everywhere I've worked. It's an endeavor full of known unknowns and unknown unknowns.

We constantly wonder, "Will people like this?" And the reveal is usually the first time a team gets to find out. The reason a leak, especially when it includes a potato cam version of a trailer, or worse, early assets, can hurt morale is because it frames the narrative in a particular way. People tend to make snap judgements, and people also hate being wrong, so what ends up happening is that people make up their mind based on the leak, and they are unwilling to change their initial opinion, no matter what is shown in the proper reveal done with proper context. Is this behavior silly? Yes. That doesn't stop it from being the case though. And since this is what happens, the team ends up seeing a response that makes them feel the answer to the question, "Will people like this?" is "I guess not."

You only get one chance at a first impression, and when the leak becomes the first impression, it can be extremely damaging.

There are some other points I'd like to address in here, and even this isn't as fully fleshed out as I'd like it to be, but I need to prep my house for over a dozen teenagers being here this evening for our child's 13th birthday, so I'll be back later.

Thanks to everyone that has responded with some level of seriousness. I genuinely enjoy when we're able to have discussions like this.

Edit: Stinkles with a fantastic reply while I was typing mine
 

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
Somebody in the other thread said, "My head sides with Team Schreier and my heart sides with Team Balrog"


Well, that's the point.

I'm giving my personal view, not my team's or my employer's or my industry's.

Stripped of emotional response, feeling, loyalty, excitement, surprise, curiosity and all the other highly personal and subjective states a consumer might have, of course there's probably some sort of an argument to suggest that you "shouldn't" feel a certain way about a product designed almost 100% to evoke an emotional response. But we have posters in the other thread berating people for even wanting a surprise. Yelling past each other to demand that a player is exhibiting stockholmn syndrome because they don't want a story or feature spoiled before the event they have planned to watch on Sunday.

I can't really accede to that kind of view. It's not any of your business, is about the best thing I can say to people literally demanding that nobody should wish to be surprised or delighted.

I would certainly never tell you that you should or had to enjoy a surprise, that's equally ridiculous. If you want to read a spoiler or leak thread, who am I to tell you not to. But if my position is that I'd rather those things didn't leak, through nefarious, sneaky, lame, sometimes criminal, sometimes accidental, sometimes incompetent reasons, then I'm not sure why that would set me in opposition to you. That position should be perfectly underdstandable. I'd rather it didn't leak. I don't want you jailed for watching that trailer, or prosecuted for posting something you came by legally or ethically. I'd rather you didn't retweet them or post spoilers, but that's about the end of my feeling about that angle as it relates to a civilian consumer of the information.


So partly I'd say that if you eliminate fraudulent claims or false and misleading "reveals" for very obvious reasons - then you still have to make a case against the financial and marketing rationale. That is -- to answer a question from another poster in that thread, why shouldn't good or honest games be marketed in this way in 2019? We have excellent evidence to show that this kind of marketing can be very successful if done right. So movies, games, cars, music and many other industries continue to use it because they have inrefutable evidence and numbers showing that it DOES work. It's not the only way and there's no rule preventing other companies within any of those industries from taking other successful approaches - and they do - all the time. This is not a practice that automatically harms anyone - consumer or developer. If it's done wrong, sure, no good, but that's true of everything from tying your shoelaces to going to the bathroom at night.


Now, as for why it sucks for a developer? Well it's obvious. We took a job knowing this was part of its theater and we worked long hours in tandem with our colleagues to make sure that this piece of the art is as suprising and delightful as possible - and knowing that the release and joy of suprise is almost entirely reliant on the mystery and excitement leading up to that, then those months of work, late nights and passionate advocacy for your part of the project, are at best, hugely corroded and at worst, ruined. So you don't have to have a single drop of sympathy for a developer whose work leaked in an untimely fashion, but you also have no right to tell another type of fan (or its developer) how they should feel about it

-- and if your argument continues to be that "games should not be marketed like this, period," then I'm afraid the onus is on you to show receipts for that, because the simultaneous views, box office receipts, ticket sales, pre-order numbers, general enthusiasm measured across broad spectra of media and NPD results are all receipts that can be traced back to the nature and success of a reveal. They are not the only outcome of that, but we can measure the connection.

And if there's another more philosophical argument about the nature of secrecy versus openness, then it should not be applied to entertainment designed to evoke an emotional response.

And reporters have a responsibility to report the truth. If something happens, then it's their responsibility to report it. If a trailer leaks, of course they are going to report it. I can't think of a single time this has happened, but I wanted to provide an extreme example where I think no reasonable purpose would be served. But when that veers into the deliberate "investigation" of a mere story element or upcoming game reveal where the investigation becomes the deliberate and legally problematic (theft/trespass etc) exposure of something that serves no public interest or good (such as a loot box scandal or predatory feature) and actively undermines the art itself in a scenario where it would otherwise not have surfaced till it was supposed to, then that becomes something more like vandalism. Or the naked pursuit of commerce. That's the difference between the papparazzi snapping pictures of Tom Brady wearing Uggs to the mall, and a photographer hiding in his crawlspace to snap pictures of Tom Brady showering in his Uggs. Which he does.


1. Don't tell other poeple how to feel about entertainment
2. Don't ruin things out of spite
3. Don't steal or cheat or trespass to leak entertainment
4. Prove the case you're making with data or facts
5. If something has already leaked, have at it
6. If you HAVE to leak, don't merely shart it into the world for the lulz - do something CREATIVE.

The fact that people are dressing their condescending talking points in "why are you emotionally invested in commercials" leads me to believe we aren't far off from "I can't believe you guys still play games, you know they're meant to make money right?"
 
Jun 12, 2018
633
Somebody in the other thread said, "My head sides with Team Schreier and my heart sides with Team Balrog"


Well, that's the point.

I'm giving my personal view, not my team's or my employer's or my industry's.

Stripped of emotional response, feeling, loyalty, excitement, surprise, curiosity and all the other highly personal and subjective states a consumer might have, of course there's probably some sort of an argument to suggest that you "shouldn't" feel a certain way about a product designed almost 100% to evoke an emotional response. But we have posters in the other thread berating people for even wanting a surprise. Yelling past each other to demand that a player is exhibiting stockholmn syndrome because they don't want a story or feature spoiled before the event they have planned to watch on Sunday.

I can't really accede to that kind of view. It's not any of your business, is about the best thing I can say to people literally demanding that nobody should wish to be surprised or delighted.

I would certainly never tell you that you should or had to enjoy a surprise, that's equally ridiculous. If you want to read a spoiler or leak thread, who am I to tell you not to. But if my position is that I'd rather those things didn't leak, through nefarious, sneaky, lame, sometimes criminal, sometimes accidental, sometimes incompetent reasons, then I'm not sure why that would set me in opposition to you. That position should be perfectly underdstandable. I'd rather it didn't leak. I don't want you jailed for watching that trailer, or prosecuted for posting something you came by legally or ethically. I'd rather you didn't retweet them or post spoilers, but that's about the end of my feeling about that angle as it relates to a civilian consumer of the information.


So partly I'd say that if you eliminate fraudulent claims or false and misleading "reveals" for very obvious reasons - then you still have to make a case against the financial and marketing rationale. That is -- to answer a question from another poster in that thread, why shouldn't good or honest games be marketed in this way in 2019? We have excellent evidence to show that this kind of marketing can be very successful if done right. So movies, games, cars, music and many other industries continue to use it because they have inrefutable evidence and numbers showing that it DOES work. It's not the only way and there's no rule preventing other companies within any of those industries from taking other successful approaches - and they do - all the time. This is not a practice that automatically harms anyone - consumer or developer. If it's done wrong, sure, no good, but that's true of everything from tying your shoelaces to going to the bathroom at night.


Now, as for why it sucks for a developer? Well it's obvious. We took a job knowing this was part of its theater and we worked long hours in tandem with our colleagues to make sure that this piece of the art is as suprising and delightful as possible - and knowing that the release and joy of suprise is almost entirely reliant on the mystery and excitement leading up to that, then those months of work, late nights and passionate advocacy for your part of the project, are at best, hugely corroded and at worst, ruined. So you don't have to have a single drop of sympathy for a developer whose work leaked in an untimely fashion, but you also have no right to tell another type of fan (or its developer) how they should feel about it

-- and if your argument continues to be that "games should not be marketed like this, period," then I'm afraid the onus is on you to show receipts for that, because the simultaneous views, box office receipts, ticket sales, pre-order numbers, general enthusiasm measured across broad spectra of media and NPD results are all receipts that can be traced back to the nature and success of a reveal. They are not the only outcome of that, but we can measure the connection.

And if there's another more philosophical argument about the nature of secrecy versus openness, then it should not be applied to entertainment designed to evoke an emotional response.

And reporters have a responsibility to report the truth. If something happens, then it's their responsibility to report it. If a trailer leaks, of course they are going to report it. I can't think of a single time this has happened, but I wanted to provide an extreme example where I think no reasonable purpose would be served. But when that veers into the deliberate "investigation" of a mere story element or upcoming game reveal where the investigation becomes the deliberate and legally problematic (theft/trespass etc) exposure of something that serves no public interest or good (such as a loot box scandal or predatory feature) and actively undermines the art itself in a scenario where it would otherwise not have surfaced till it was supposed to, then that becomes something more like vandalism. Or the naked pursuit of commerce. That's the difference between the papparazzi snapping pictures of Tom Brady wearing Uggs to the mall, and a photographer hiding in his crawlspace to snap pictures of Tom Brady showering in his Uggs. Which he does.


1. Don't tell other poeple how to feel about entertainment
2. Don't ruin things out of spite
3. Don't steal or cheat or trespass to leak entertainment
4. Prove the case you're making with data or facts
5. If something has already leaked, have at it
6. If you HAVE to leak, don't merely shart it into the world for the lulz - do something CREATIVE.
Thank you so much for this post.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
To be clear -- I consider Anthem's E3 marketing to be straight-up lies. The trailer egregiously misrepresented the game. But that situation is an extreme example and isn't applicable to most games. The reveal of 'most games' are generally somewhere between honest and cherry picked bullshots, and I understand the importance of getting the message right.

My objection is with people who take issue with game journalists reporting on leaks... Leakers are going to reveal stuff whether or not a game publication writes a story about it or not. Journalists are just doing their job to report the news. Additionally, it's the developer and publisher's responsibility to prevent leaks, not the news media. There's plenty of reasons to be critical of game journalists, but reporting on leaks isn't one of them.
sure, I am not bashing on the messenger, they just report what they get. as you said its not their responsibility to keep that lid closed unless they went to the office and signed that NDA. but then its an easy legal issue. I am just talking about the actual leaker who do it for the limelight, making them feel important
 

gosublime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,429
general enthusiasm measured across broad spectra of media and NPD results are all receipts that can be traced back to the nature and success of a reveal. They are not the only outcome of that, but we can measure the connection.

It's a bit off topic but this is kind of what I was getting at with my question earlier in the thread - how granular does it get with this kind of stuff? When - for example - the logo and name of a new game leaks, how sure are you about the amount of money/sales that are lost due to the leak? It actually weirds me out a little that my buying choices could be so easily reducible to a set of factors like me hearing the name on this site a week or so before the official reveal!

Appreciate that it's probably not a question you can answer but it would be really interesting for the students I have discussions with about Free Will and Determinism.
 

EDarkness

Member
Oct 25, 2017
582
Leaks lead to witch hunts internally to find out who talked...even though they know they shouldn't have. I think we should be able to release things on our own terms, though. For someone else to decide when the game should be announced just makes folks made and upset.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
It's a bit off topic but this is kind of what I was getting at with my question earlier in the thread - how granular does it get with this kind of stuff? When - for example - the logo and name of a new game leaks, how sure are you about the amount of money/sales that are lost due to the leak? It actually weirds me out a little that my buying choices could be so easily reducible to a set of factors like me hearing the name on this site a week or so before the official reveal!

Appreciate that it's probably not a question you can answer but it would be really interesting for the students I have discussions with about Free Will and Determinism.


Thanks to the granular nature of things like views, view duration, retweets, ratios, pre order origins etc etc you could make a good case for measuring even negative space and drawing conclusions but since marketing is propelled by adapting and evolving out of those outcomes you would need to create a study with a broad collection of failures and successes to average out the apples and oranges and a large group of publishers prepared to share proprietary post mortem data- but the data itself including leak dates and vectors is there.

For someone else to decide when the game should be announced just makes folks mad and upset.


When you say "someone else" do you mean the property owner rather than the consumer?!
 

MilesQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,490
I'm not a developer, but if my work leaked in the same way Bleeding Edge did, I'd be gutted.

There's a one minute, no context video that could already be old informing people's opinions on the game and there's nothing I can do until days later.
 

OtakuCoder

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,362
UK
Mario rabbids easily

I'm pretty sure Mario + Rabbids was HELPED by the leak - everyone had time to process the fact that something as insane as a Mario and Rabbids crossover was happening so that by the time Ubi actually talked about it people just focused on the gameplay and was like "Huh, this actually looks pretty good".

Obviously this won't be the case for every game.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
I'm pretty sure Mario + Rabbids was HELPED by the leak - everyone had time to process the fact that something as insane as a Mario and Rabbids crossover was happening so that by the time Ubi actually talked about it people just focused on the gameplay and was like "Huh, this actually looks pretty good".

Obviously this won't be the case for every game.
that is a pretty big assumptions, the devs themselves where gutted from the negative press and reactions as quoted in this post below
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,065
It actually weirds me out a little that my buying choices could be so easily reducible to a set of factors like me hearing the name on this site a week or so before the official reveal!
PR/Marketing job is to control the narrative, deviations of critical information being sourced in non-controlled ways hamper their ability to do so. It doesn't even matter whether the measurable impact is negative or not - it simply makes their job harder/adds unpredictability.

Also don't confuse aggregate data/statistics with individual decisions - that relationship is never 1:1 (nor is it important that it's not).
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,497
Spain
Does it affect mutual trust in the team to know that there has been a leak? Do you feel like a "betrayal"?
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
Does it affect mutual trust in the team to know that there has been a leak? Do you feel like a "betrayal"?
Whole teams could get shuffled to weed out a leaker and it can create a huge culture of trust issues within a team seriously hampering internal communications and making everybodies life on the team shit! All for the effort of typing a tweet.
 

Lazlo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
238
Another problematic side to leaks is that if the information is incorrect or embellished by the leaker the community starts building expectations around that leaked information. When the actual correct information is properly released they are then upset that it's different from the the expectations they've created based on the false information. At that point it's not like the developer can correct the fan, but now they have to live up to these incorrect expectations... It sucks.

And sometimes there are complex systems or mechanics that require proper explanation from the developer to fully understand. A well put together video or developer interview can properly handle this, but a leak might not convey the information correctly causing more of the situation above. The impressions can be corrected once proper explanations are available or people play the game, but the discussion around misinformation can be a distraction that shows up during any mention of the game, and requires a lot of effort to overcome.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
Post deleted by author.
 
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EDarkness

Member
Oct 25, 2017
582
When you say "someone else" do you mean the property owner rather than the consumer?!

I mean someone who is not related to the project (ex-employees, journalists, friends of employees, etc.). I don't like this idea that the public knows best. Being able to announce your project (game, book, movie, etc.) on your own terms should be respected, in my opinion. Luckily, my game(s) are not things the general public cares about yet, but I still would be pretty upset if someone leaked my game/book before I was ready.
 

NekoNeko

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,447
people seem to forget that devs are secretive about EVERYTHING.
sure you want to get a first good impression but they don't even want to talk about working on a game we know they are working on. what's the harm in saying "we are working hard on God of War 2?" or "The next Zelda is in development"? nothing but they still don't do it. the industry is way too secretive about everything.
 

Mockerre

Story Director
Verified
Oct 30, 2017
630
It's not the end of the world, though it does impact our work. Think of it this way: you work really hard to prepare a suprise birthday party for your friend for them to just come over to you and say they know all about it. It just deflates you.

On the business side, in a crowded market, it can mess up a marketing campaign, which can cost the company money. If the company is publicly traded, it can impact this too. If you're working with a licensed IP, it can sour your relationship with the licensor or cause some, albeit minor, legal trouble.

I respect Schreier for his investigative journalism, but he's wrong on this one. Reporting on leaks is not real journalism, it's done for publicity/clicks, it's the equivalent of celebrity gossip.
 
OP
OP
sn00zer

sn00zer

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,060
people seem to forget that devs are secretive about EVERYTHING.
sure you want to get a first good impression but they don't even want to talk about working on a game we know they are working on. what's the harm in saying "we are working hard on God of War 2?" or "The next Zelda is in development"? nothing but they still don't do it. the industry is way too secretive about everything.
Read the thread
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
I mean someone who is not related to the project (ex-employees, journalists, friends of employees, etc.). I don't like this idea that the public knows best. Being able to announce your project (game, book, movie, etc.) on your own terms should be respected, in my opinion. Luckily, my game(s) are not things the general public cares about yet, but I still would be pretty upset if someone leaked my game/book before I was ready.


Aaaah! Gotcha.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
people seem to forget that devs are secretive about EVERYTHING.
sure you want to get a first good impression but they don't even want to talk about working on a game we know they are working on. what's the harm in saying "we are working hard on God of War 2?" or "The next Zelda is in development"? nothing but they still don't do it. the industry is way too secretive about everything.
They aren't though? From the looks of it, they aren't at all secretive between developers themselves with different developers from different companies knowing what the other is doing. It's only the public that doesn't know - and there's no real public need for us to know either, it doesn't benefit us to know before the announcement, it's just our impatience talking. I mean, I don't really understand Jason Schrier's point, he defo deliberately doesn't tell about projects that he knows about before they are leaked or announced, likely cus he knows it may affect devs talking to him reasonably openly if they think he'd going to leak it out, so he knows it does matter.
 

EDarkness

Member
Oct 25, 2017
582
people seem to forget that devs are secretive about EVERYTHING.
sure you want to get a first good impression but they don't even want to talk about working on a game we know they are working on. what's the harm in saying "we are working hard on God of War 2?" or "The next Zelda is in development"? nothing but they still don't do it. the industry is way too secretive about everything.

You'd be surprised at how many games get started and never finished. Players are strange in that if they know about a thing they just keep asking about it even after it's dead (i.e. the project started, was canceled, and the team moved on to something else). It's better to just not acknowledge it until it's sure the game will get off of the ground or is gonna be released in some decent timeframe. Telling folks, "We're making X Popular Game 2" only to cancel it a few months later or the game doesn't come out for 10 years is just not productive at all.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
It hurt the people making it

Amazing how quickly the veneer of pretending to actually care for developers scratches off, right? :D

people seem to forget that devs are secretive about EVERYTHING.
sure you want to get a first good impression but they don't even want to talk about working on a game we know they are working on. what's the harm in saying "we are working hard on God of War 2?" or "The next Zelda is in development"?

Well, do you really want to know "what's the harm" in announcing a game early, or was that a rethoric question purely intended for you to answ-

nothing but they still don't do it. the industry is way too secretive about everything.

... carry on, then.

(kind of hilarious, isn't it? "We want to know more about the internals of game development!" "Well, we can tell you why we don't reveal things early and why it hurts when stuff leaks." "LOL, not that, who cares about that.").
 

NekoNeko

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,447
Well, I'm a developer. Do you really want to know "what's the harm" in announcing a game early, or was that a rethoric question purely intended for you to answ-
well i am too and i still don't see the problem of announcing what you are working on early. people will get used to games getting cancelled or retooled very quickly. it will become something that just happens every once in a while.
 

Deleted member 21709

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
23,310
You know how I feel when some one likes something I created? I feel good.

Know how I feel if someone likes something I made before I wanted to tell them? Like shit fuck you assholes I don't want excitement early!

I wonder how Ninja Theory's devs feel after 10 pages of people crapping on their work based on a shitty, no sound off-screen leaked video.
 

Deleted member 8752

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,122
There's too much secrecy in the industry. Avengers 3 & 4 were both announced in 2014. The hype and anticipation were still high when they released and made billions of dollars.

Video games and movies are not made the same way so their reveals aren't analogous at all. They're also not experienced the sane way nor do they get purchased and viewed the same way in the market place.

It's really not a valid comparison. They're completely different mediums.
 

EDarkness

Member
Oct 25, 2017
582
well i am too and i still don't see the problem of announcing what you are working on early. people will get used to games getting cancelled or retooled very quickly. it will become something that just happens every once in a while.

I'm of a mind that it can radically change how players engage your game. For example, my current game is a top down RPG, but it was originally a strategy game that I thought would be cool. It completely changed genres. Now, no one cares about it because I'm just a low man on the pole, but what if it was some big game? Strategy guys would be mad that the game changed into an action RPG and is that something we really want to deal with when trying to get "good" press for the game? It's best to hold that stuff back until we know for sure what it's gonna be and how it's gonna turn out. Of course, this is just my opinion on it.