Okay, I'm defeated now, thanks guys, I was genuinely curious
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Game Developers on Pokemon SwSh Pokedex Cuts: "I'm Surprised They Didn't Cut It Years Ago" [USgamer]
- Thread starter Lady Bow
- Start date
Okay, I'm defeated now, thanks guys, I was genuinely curious
It's not any more random than citing a blog and another ERA poster so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Guess we'll find out when the game is out and gets mined for everything
I'm not moving the goal post at all. Obviously "until now" meant "until the Switch". We're talking about how much of their future-proofed assets can be recycled for SwSh. So until the Switch was a thing, they never had to touch HD graphics. This was your first claim:
To which I said that meant they had less experience and less time with HD development than the devs you mentioned because the Switch is their first HD platform, not the Wii U. Let's keep a line of thought here.
I mean the thing though is that as far as I'm aware, Gen 1 is the only one that did that. Gen 2 definitely had 2 sets of sprites per version(I don't know why) and they merged them for Crystal but gave them a new set.
251 was definitely remade, and then 151 twice in gen 3(unless you are factoring in new animations as a reason)
Because they thought it'd still work when they made the HD transition.
The issue basically comes down to the fact that these games have to keep coming out yearly/semi-yearly to keep the merchandise and marketing trains on schedule (anime etc.). They aren't going to take more than 2-3 years to make these games because of that.
My concern is now Pokemon will live or die on whether or not GameFreak finds them marketable. I would have been fine with either post-release updates for the old Pokemon, or a complete reboot with only new Pokemon a la Black and White, but the latter seems unrealistic, they're never going to abandon Pikachu, Charizard, etc. as marketing cornerstones. If the content is still as lackluster as the 3DS titles as well, then it's going to be hard to feel like coughing up $60 for it.
Pokemon is a victim of its own success.
My concern is now Pokemon will live or die on whether or not GameFreak finds them marketable. I would have been fine with either post-release updates for the old Pokemon, or a complete reboot with only new Pokemon a la Black and White, but the latter seems unrealistic, they're never going to abandon Pikachu, Charizard, etc. as marketing cornerstones. If the content is still as lackluster as the 3DS titles as well, then it's going to be hard to feel like coughing up $60 for it.
Pokemon is a victim of its own success.
The contracts that shows that they have no constraints related to Pokemon.
I'm pretty sure that despite being rather autonomous Nintendo still has obligations in that regard as well.
I mean if you're gonna just ignore the GDC talk GF provided for shits and giggle I guess you get to go all the way.
But they didn't have the time to set all of that up.
They never had to care about HD development before because they're working on handhelds anyway, that horizon wasn't coming for half a decade when they went full 3D.
By the time they were done with Gen VI, they had to work with DeNa on making Go and coordinate for LGP/LGE.
Gen VII was timely so I don't think they had any reason to delay that much the Alola games.
Galar seems like it could have waited a year if you ask me.
Money isn't going to solve organizational issues, it just means that they have latitude to pay people but that says nothing about the work there is to do to set up your work environment to absorb more people if needed or shift the practices to exponentially more complex tools.
OP
OP
You said we were ignoring it which makes no sense. Attempting a confirmation bias gotcha I'm assuming? You're comparing a locked post on an internet forum from a month ago vs. a USgamer article posted today.
You don't even know my opinion about pokemon, because I haven't stated it, so how can you know that we disagree? The position that you assume I have is something that you have made up in your mind.
Sure it does. If you were participating in these discussions, which I know you have been, none of this stuff in the USGamer article is new.
Better to just quote it.
Uhh, 3D models are very portable. There's standardized formats that can bake in both the mesh, rigs, and animations — if you need a different format, you just export it to the different format from the source app (Maya, etc) — and yes you could even automate this process with a script to quickly convert thousands of assets. The idea you're suggesting that you have to remake a model from scratch or even re-rig the mesh to get it into a different engine is just bizarre. Like, what do you think happens to the rig and animations in Maya (or whatever app they use to author the assets) when they started working on SwSh? Disappear? No.
No, CPU architecture has nothing to do with models. Again, these are standardized formats -- you write an importer to import 3D assets like you would images, sound files, etc -- you don't reinvent a new 3D asset format every time you make a new engine just like you wouldn't reinvent jpg, png, tga, wav, ogg, mp3, etc.
And for what changes CPU architecture did require (in engine code, mostly), they already had Switch experience with Go P/E — that was supposed to be the transition game.
Maybe they did rebuild the models from scratch, but it would be a creative choice -- it wouldn't be mandated by all these reasons you try to give. And judging by the footage we've seen, I'm still skeptical. Take Gyrados for example -- even the model's topology looks identical. If they rebuilt that model for Switch, why leave in the low poly joints in the whiskers? If they were recreated from scratch, they were recreated to match the old model as close as possible... and I assume Game Freak is smart enough to not waste all that time recreating assets they already have.
(can even see that the part where it starts to curl is a bit squished in both the 3DS model and the Switch model, suggesting they're using the same animations that deform the whiskers the same way -- it'd actually be quite a lot more effort, an insane amount of work, really, to literally recreate the same model and animations from scratch and have them match up so closely instead of naturally having different proportions, topology, and animations)
Either way, the reasons you provide for why they'd have to recreate or re-rig models is nonsense. If all you claim was true, they would have had to redo all the models and animations for Pokemon Go as well.
Magmar
Black/White and Black 2/White 2
Diamond & Pearl
Most were redone between Gens 3 and 4 though
Yeah but what about the armchair character model designers that insist it's quick and easy to "upscale" the models already created for the 3DS games? Surely they know what they're talking about
Which completely ignores what multiple other developers have said about animation rigs going screwy with new platforms and new engines.
JustinP is correct about the wireframes, but wireframes aren't all a model is.
...Were there any battle sprites that weren't redone between generations 3 and 4?
Even that doesn't show the full picture when I'm pretty sure both sprites don't animate in the same way at all.Magmar
Black/White and Black 2/White 2
Diamond & Pearl
Most were redone between Gens 3 and 4 though
They did increase size so I think most were redone, yeah
Correct. Diamond & Pearl had no animations while Black & White's took elements of the sprite and stretched/contorted them into animation
What I love about this post is that it ignore all the rigging work that needs to be done on the models.
Like who would guess that rigging models is not something that is particularly easy or automation friendly....
JustinP's post isn't talking about the wireframe. Please read it again.
Well multiple developers are saying otherwise. I also know people in the industry who have said similar to these developers. Why is JustinP more trustworthy than those? Is it because he pushes the narrative you agree with?
OP
OP
Last post in that from me was page 60. I dipped out when shit was getting so toxic in there when people were defending harassing Masuda on twitter and the like. I never read the last few pages so I have no idea what the hell you're getting at. Even if I did "ignore" his post (even though I never saw it), it's not that relevant because of below:
Weird flex from you.
Since we're bringing this up again, I'll repost this:
If memory serves, they used something similar to puppet animation so that parts of the part could be rotated and stretched easily, no?
That's something that wasn't easily done back in the day but the result can be impressive.
I'm pretty sure all of them were redone.
They could be saying otherwise for other aspects of the post, but it's pretty clear JustinP is not just talking about the wireframe. Hence why I asked you to read it again.
From a technical standpoint, SwSh might end up faring better, actually. Three Houses is a much bigger leap in gameplay for the Fire Emblem series than SwSh is for Pokemon, but Three Houses also looks and runs like crap.
Making them sprite based again would only compound the problem by several orders of magnitude. Animating a sprite is so much more work than for 3d models, for a start.
Are we talking Let's Go Viridian Forest bad, or double battle with 3D on in X and Y bad?
The kind of fidelity 2D sprites requires at 1080p would be an absolute nightmare to work with, let alone if they intend to fully animate them.
And it would look worse than basic 3D models too.
Wasn't 3D disabled in double battles?
In terms of framerate, Viridian Forest bad in some parts of the monastery, so it's not the biggest issue. I was talking more about how it kicks the Switch fans into high gear, more than you'd expect for a Switch game whose visuals don't really justify such a high clock imo, and saps the Switch battery really quickly.
Are you kidding? I'm playing Three Houses and it looks terrible compared to Pokémon, on top of not running particularly well
It should also be noted that until E3 2019, the framerate and graphics were a continuing sore point that you couldnt avoid hearing about. Once we knew the full scope, as well as glowing previews came, it made the game even more appealing. Of course the graphics are still a sore point, but it seems what we have gained was enough to win people over.
I'm not sure if Pokemon can do that given its stringent schedule
At least you could alleviate the perfs by disabling 3D in single battles.
I still prefer doubles though.
You're right actually. I forgot about that. It's a good thing too, it probably would have crashed the game.
Moltres and Fire Spin are forever etched into my memory from XY. God what a nightmare.
I think they probably disabled that because 5 fps wasn't pleasing to the eye really.
Never said they had to be animated.
Either way, I understand how tough this was for game freak but I can still express my disappointment in the outcome.
So you want Pokemon TCG instead of Sword and Shield?
Not knocking you off for that, I'm just stating it plainly.
Qucik question, do you share the same opinion when it comes to fighting games? That every new iteration should have all previous available characters?
Are you telling me everyone on the forum who kept saying "they already have all the 3D models, lazy devs, its easy gamefreak etc., etc." are wrong!?
Blasphemy. Game Freak literally killed our favorite dogs (mons). They have hell to pay.
#BrokenSword #BrokenShield
Blasphemy. Game Freak literally killed our favorite dogs (mons). They have hell to pay.
#BrokenSword #BrokenShield
I'm telling you future SSB games discussions are gonna be super fun.
I'm not seeing a crash, I'm seeing framerate drop to .00000000000000001.
(a crash would send the system back to the home menu, I know because SSB4)
Yeah, Three Houses's sheer scope and ambition makes up for its technical shortcomings. SwSh will also be a huge game, but Pokemon fans take for granted how large every Pokemon game is.
Wow who are you some armchair dev? You have to be a game developer to point out shoddy work in paid products you know
Not a good comparison, because fighting games aren't built on 20 years of forwards compatibility and aren't selling a service to continue this despite cutting characters in the main titles.