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PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,549
I feel like an underlying message in some of the posts in this thread is that it's only toxic gamers and alt right people who are upset at the spoilers and from what I've gathered by reading the spoiler thread that's.... not really the case. Lots of posters here don't like the leaked plot details for reasons outside of progressivism.

Like, I don't think that's the main cause of the hate at all?

I think you're partially right, BUT. The game has been getting concentrated hate campaigns for such a long time that unfortunately it's difficult to determine which flares of anger are generated by reasonable reactions to the direction the story is taking and which are standard right-wing reactionary takes.
 

DrDeckard

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,109
UK
what an incredible mess this game is. Because of thsse idiot nazi scum right wingers, we generally have created a situation where the game or naughty dog cannot be put to task for their myriad of issues. Claims of sexual harassment brushed under a rug, crunch being explained as "all studios crunch" because of the fans of the studio and now any question on writing or direction of the games themes is shrouded in a cloud of "well if you dont like it you're a right wing freak"

Thats what it feels like to me....imagine if reviewers give this game a 7 out of ten? The same people who are acting as the high and mighty left wing will turn in a second to attack the reviewers. Probably claiming that the reviewer is some right wing nut job that doesn't want to be progressive. I'll put money on it that we see that happen.

The worst group is the right, but the left will lower themselves to a very low level in these coming weeks. A lot of reviewers won't even dare have a negative thought on this game.

To finish off, I'm not a developer...but please developers. Let me play as a gay male. Properly. Let me play as a serious male gay character...let me play as a tiger king gay in a funny game. Let me play as a trans. Continue your journey to explore these themes, I will be right there. Make a great game.

Im a straight male, but I'm damn right ok with my sexuality, and more, my drive for understanding love between people. We are specs in this universes existence. If you are a person who would attack someone, verbally or physically over THEIR choices in life then .....hopefully you do not breed.

Morning rant over lol.
 

Angie

Best Avatar Thread Ever!
Member
Nov 20, 2017
39,390
Kingdom of Corona
I feel like it's a bit unfair to suggest that the criticism is being lobbed by homophobic idiots. I have read plenty of tweets, post and concerns from the LGBT community concerning the portrayal of a certain character (not Ellie) or how the story does not put the community in a good light. As such, some have even accused Naughty Dog of being phobic based on the leaked story. Sadly I think the basis of most of these concerns are likely from a false leak but it's past the point now where it may as well be true.
It's unfair?
Just check any ND tweet from any dev. Or IGN tweet today. Find one valid criticism about the story of the characters of the world..
I will show you 20 being bigots.
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,667
The Milky Way
The "reaction" is temporary and meaningless in the grand scheme of things. It's still at the top of preorder charts, it'll still be one of the highest selling games of the entire generation, and everyone will have forgotten about the spoilers when the game releases, gets a 95-97 MC score, and people remember that it's the gameplay and execution that really makes the game special.

But sure, gaming developers seem a bit like celebrities in the tabloids. Some of them are put on a pedestal, as if they are somehow impossibly perfect, praised to high heavens, just to make that eventual and inevitable fall from grace so much harder.
 
Jun 22, 2019
3,660
I feel like an underlying message in some of the posts in this thread is that it's only toxic gamers and alt right people who are upset at the spoilers and from what I've gathered by reading the spoiler thread that's.... not really the case. Lots of posters here don't like the leaked plot details for reasons outside of progressivism.

Like, I don't think that's the main cause of the hate at all?

As usual, those toxic communities attempt to co-opt unrelated hate campaigns to further their own causes which are usually entrenched in bigotry. You latch onto hating a thing that is popular to hate on and become the loudest in the group due to the sheer amount of vitriol and output, while wedging in anti-progressivism. Many casual laypeople who just want to hate on 'thing' are very willing to just turn a blind eye, or fail to even notice, and edge-case people may get swept up into participating in the bigoted side of hating whatever thing is currently popular to hate. It's very insidious and effective.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,512
I feel like it's a bit unfair to suggest that the criticism is being lobbed by homophobic idiots. I have read plenty of tweets, post and concerns from the LGBT community concerning the portrayal of a certain character (not Ellie) or how the story does not put the community in a good light. As such, some have even accused Naughty Dog of being phobic based on the leaked story. Sadly I think the basis of most of these concerns are likely from a false leak but it's past the point now where it may as well be true.

Right now, every criticism is unfair because nobody played it. After release is another story.

But the ones making the most noise will certainly be these groups, and Cyberpunk will probably be worse.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,641
So wait people are melting down over 1.5 hours of footage lacking hours and hours of context and some parts were also fake?
Well some of the initial story bits were stitched together by 4chan based on small leaked footage (not even entire 1.5hrs), so I dunno why anyone expected them to be entirely accurate. Yet here we are.
 

BeeDog

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,549
The "reaction" is temporary and meaningless in the grand scheme of things. It's still at the top of preorder charts, it'll still be one of the highest selling games of the entire generation, and everyone will have forgotten about the spoilers when the game releases, gets a 95-97 MC score, and people remember that it's the gameplay and execution that really makes the game special.

But sure, gaming developers seem a bit like celebrities in the tabloids. Some of them are put on a pedestal, as if they are somehow impossibly perfect, praised to high heavens, just to make that eventual and inevitable fall from grace so much harder.

Agreed. People can argue back and forth all they want about the leak, spreading of spoilers, what kinds of punishments the leakers deserve or will get, etc. but ultimately, I think people here overestimate just how much all of this doesn't matter in the real world. My general observation is that the majority of buyers never care nor encounter this stuff.
 

Roytheone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,140
I have seen quite a few people being dissapointed with the leaks on here too, and I doubt we have a lot of Alt righters here. There probably are going to be valid complaints about the story, and hopefully those will not get lobbed into the same category as the alt right cry babies yelling.
 

AllChan7

Tries to be a positive role model
Member
Apr 30, 2019
3,670
I know there's people with legitimate complaints about the story beats. But half of the complaints on forums and social media are extremely toxic stuff. Heck, you got people even saying Uncharted 4 was woke and ND doesn't pay their employees and that the leaker being a hacker is fake. Its just a mess of misinformation with half these comments and complaints

I guarantee the game isn't that "woke" to begin with. And while there are some very very bold narrative choices, I think no one can say the entire game is awful or bad or poorly written just yet at all. And I do feel very sorry for ND devs are seem pretty excited and proud of how the game turned out.

The crunch ofc sucks but I also think these people at the end of the day still very much care about what they create and seeing their creation torn apart unfairly by certain vocal individuals just because they've seen a tiny portion of the game out of context must suck.
 

Astandahl

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,009
I have seen quite a few people being dissapointed with the leaks on here too, and I doubt we have a lot of Alt righters here. There probably are going to be valid complaints about the story, and hopefully those will not get lobbed into the same category as the alt right cry babies yelling.
Usually "Era" prediction in spoiler thread don't turn out really well. I was checking FF VII R spoiler thread before the release date and the general consensus there was very negative and completely out of reality. I absolutely don't know how someone would be able to judge the story or the storytelling in general with only 1.5 hours of footage that only include few cutscenes.
 
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leburn98

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,637
It's unfair?
Just check any ND tweet from any dev. Or IGN tweet today. Find one valid criticism about the story of the characters of the world..
I will show you 20 being bigots.
The whole point of my post was to show that not all critique of the story is from bigoted point of few. Are bigots having a field day with this? Absolutely, but we need to be extremely careful not to lump all critique of the game as some alt-right, homophobic, bigoted hot take.
 

Angie

Best Avatar Thread Ever!
Member
Nov 20, 2017
39,390
Kingdom of Corona
Kind of off topic (not a dev) but situations like this make me unsure of how I should respond. I'm a straight white dude in a first world country. I'm not part of any kind of minority that I'm aware of (unless being pro-Xbox counts (I jest)) and I'd like to think I'm generally fairly open and accepting when it comes to LGBQT topics and the like.

That being said...
I knew I should have stop reading after this..

First, people who think the first game doesn't have LGBTQ themes hasn't really been paying attention. It's not a sudden thing

Second, how is it shoving down people's throats? The big big majority of games just has straight characters and very few has LGBTQ representation. Even fewer when it comes to AAA games. TLoU is one of the few series that does, and more importantly it does it well. It's part of a very small number of franchises in an industry of tens of thousands of games, that handles mature and serious issues like this very well, and now that's pushing an agenda? People who believe that are seriously misguided, plain and simple.

The more i'm part of a gaming comunity the more I hate it.
 

nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,126
Usually "Era" prediction in spoiler thread don't turn out really well. I was checking FF VII R spoiler thread before the release date and the general consensus there was very negative and completely out of reality. I absolutely don't know how someone would be able to judge the story or the storytelling general with only 1.5 hours of footage that only include few cutscenes.

Probably some correlation between people who are okay with being spoiled and talking about it a lot pre release, and some degree of confirmation bias against said product.
 

Angie

Best Avatar Thread Ever!
Member
Nov 20, 2017
39,390
Kingdom of Corona
The whole point of my post was to show that not all critique of the story is from bigoted point of few. Are bigots having a field day with this? Absolutely, but we need to be extremely careful not to lump all critique of the game as some alt-right, homophobic, bigoted hot take.
And my point is that very few actually have legitimate complaints about the story. They're not the ones hating on the game in ND tweets and they're not the ones going around spoiling the game for others and they're definitely not the ones celebrating the leaks and all the negativity on forums and twitter. They are drowned out by the countless bigots.
 

Mrfb17

Senior Designer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
65
London, United Kingdom
I think what it boils down to and what a lot of people forget is that ND are making their game. It's not being made specifically for any one gamer, yes it's an entertainment product and it's a business but you'll find a lot of developers are just working on something they want to do personally because it's their game, their story etc.
So when leaks happen and 'fans' hear something that doesn't mesh up with their vision of what should happen in a sequel for 'their' beloved characters them of course misguided hate begins. When in actual fact it was never theirs in the first place and ND have every right to do what they want to it however they see fit. Yes it could cause them financial ruin if it was off the wall crazy but that's their choice. Consumers of entertainment need to realise this, from Music to TV etc. There's a difference between putting out a BAD product and something that does something with the property that may not fit your view for the characters etc
 

s0l0kill

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
856
I don't want to read the spoliers but I wonder why the alt-right are up in arms? is it because of Ellie having a girlfriend? cause that was known for a while. or is trump the final boss or something? lol
 

Callibretto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,491
Indonesia
The whole point of my post was to show that not all critique of the story is from bigoted point of few. Are bigots having a field day with this? Absolutely, but we need to be extremely careful not to lump all critique of the game as some alt-right, homophobic, bigoted hot take.
Wouldn't be surprised if there's hate from the lgbt group too. Ever since the first Dina reveal and the theme about hate, there are plenty of people concern about bury the gay trope. Just having gay main character is not enough, there's a lot of potential landmine that may bring backlash from the group ND hope to represent.
 

The BLJ

Member
Feb 2, 2019
698
France
I'm obviously not a game developer. But from my observation the main reason so many people are hating on ND is truly not the leak itself. ND already had a target on its back for two reasons:
- Druckmann being quite open and direct in interviews about the political and progressive aims of his stories, and saying other things that overall will necessarily catch the attention of people who disagree and want to proudly voice their disagreement even though they were never going to buy the game anyway to begin with (also, personally I think it is immensely stupid that he said "we don't use the word 'fun' ")
- The rumors about crunch

Regardless of the validity or lack thereof of these things, it caught the attention of lots of people who feel the need to act morally superior to a game company they see as being compromised and not interested in the quality of their games, even though those people were never going to buy TLOU2 to begin with anyway. (but because of the crunch rumors, even some people who were fine with ND found something to be negative toward)
So, when contents leaked, those people who were waiting for ND to shoot themselves in the foot and prove their point decided to interpret the leaks as proof the game suffered from whatever moral decline is expected of ND (even to the point of actively sharing false information about the contents of the leak).

Personally I think this whole thing is stupid. Most people I see complaining about the game and "cancelling" it were hardly interested in buying it to begin with. And one hour and a half worth of leaks isn't going to show the most important part of the storytelling, which is the actual execution and pacing and how it is tied to the gameplay experience.
Assuming the rumors about bad workplace environment are not true, there is really little ND could have done to avoid this backlash, except not mess up and get themselves hacked obviously. At best, maybe Druckmann could say some less bombastic things, but as the director and writer he gets to say what he wants, and I think the actual games have far more nuance and depth that his words in interviews would let one think. Also... as I said the people who perceive the game as being nothing but "SJW propaganda" were never going to buy it to begin with, because what they actually want is to pick a fight and complain that a successful game developer has a different perspective than them.

TL;DR There is practically nothing that ND could have done to prevent the backlash, and much of the backlash is unjustified and stirred up by people who were not going to buy the game anyway. Really, the main reason the leaks are interpreted in the worst way possible is because of the already negative image ND has along some people because of "controversial" things Druckmann said, and because of rumors about workplace problems. But even if ND fixes their image in some manner it won't change anything for the people who have already chosen to see ND as embodying whatever particular issues they see in the game industry. At this point all they can really do is just release their game when it's ready and pray that game journalists don't jump on the anti-ND wave for clicks. I expect TLOU2 to be a masterpiece so hopefully the hate against the game dies down when people actually play it.
 
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Mar 29, 2018
7,078
I feel like an underlying message in some of the posts in this thread is that it's only toxic gamers and alt right people who are upset at the spoilers and from what I've gathered by reading the spoiler thread that's.... not really the case. Lots of posters here don't like the leaked plot details for reasons outside of progressivism.

Like, I don't think that's the main cause of the hate at all?
Those people simply say "I won't be buying the game, damn I'm disappointed" then barely bring it up again.

They don't go on Twitter and hurl vitriol at developers, day after day, week after week - which is probably the vocal minority being discussed in this thread.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
Bold prediction: this thread, and more specifically the implication that all criticism of Last of Us 2 is bigotry, is going to age like milk, and Naughty Dog is going to establish a vocal hatedom on Era, in a similar manner to Atlus.
 

Taffy Lewis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,527
As someone who would call themselves a mild fan of the original, and equally mildly excited for the sequel, this whole drama is one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen on the internet. The Last of Us II leaked just like every video game ever. So fucking what? Someone in the original thread when the news broke said this is worth ruining someone's life for. What the hell is going on?

The person that stole and published the data absolutely should get punished, that's not acceptable behavior in our society.
 

Mr. Genuine

Member
Mar 23, 2018
1,617
The person that stole and published the data absolutely should get punished, that's not acceptable behavior in our society.

Yeah and very powerful people have systems set up to ensure that sort of punishment happens, if you're really so worried about that. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the drama discourse surrounding the leaks. I guess the drama is related to the actual content of the leaks , which I haven't been exposed to and don't plan on being, but I've never seen so much drama and emotion around a leak before. It's very weird.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
Saying you don't like the plot because of a spoiler is just dumb. Literally every plot sounds stupid as shit if you compress it to a bunch of bullet points.
 
Sep 14, 2018
4,620
Bold prediction: this thread, and more specifically the implication that all criticism of Last of Us 2 is bigotry, is going to age like milk, and Naughty Dog is going to establish a vocal hatedom on Era, in a similar manner to Atlus.
Atlus has a vocal hatedom? lmao. What doesn't have a vocal hatedom on this site? We hate things for sport.
I don't want to read the spoliers but I wonder why the alt-right are up in arms? is it because of Ellie having a girlfriend?
That's pretty much it, yes. There's also rumors ND has a very progressive work environment that is toxic to conservatives and all sorts of made up stuff that no one bothers to check if it's true or not so it's just accepted as fact, probably cause those people just want to hate on ND and the game. All because Ellie is a lesbian and there is a same sex relationship featured very prominently.
 

Midgarian

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 16, 2020
2,619
Midgar
I didn't realise GamerGate type idiots were part of this mess as well. Thought it was only people mad at Naughty Dog for other reasons.

Reactionary people don't scare me. They can be fought. It's losing to Reactionaries that scares me.
 
OP
OP
Vire

Vire

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,591
Bold prediction: this thread, and more specifically the implication that all criticism of Last of Us 2 is bigotry, is going to age like milk, and Naughty Dog is going to establish a vocal hatedom on Era, in a similar manner to Atlus.
The thread was not created to shut down all criticism in regards to the game. But the game isn't even out yet. It was more to highlight the fact that if you simply click on the latest IGN tweet for The Last of Us - literally 80% is filled with hateful, homophobic, racist and disgusting comments.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Based on crunch? Care to explain?
The thread was not created to shut down all criticism in regards to the game. But the game isn't even out yet. It was more to highlight the fact that if you simply click on the latest IGN tweet for The Last of Us - literally 80% is filled with hateful, homophobic, racist and disgusting comments.

I presume they're talking about the way the LGBT stuff is handled in TLoU2.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,512

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
It's easy to dismiss story concerns as anti social justice when you don't know the spoilers.

but that's a discussion for when the game releases.
 
Jan 31, 2019
289
The only reaction that matters is sales. The sales will be huge. 99 percent of the people who play this game don't go on gaming forums and don't care about story leaks.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,512
It's easy to dismiss story concerns as anti social justice when you don't know the spoilers.

but that's a discussion for when the game releases.

When you don't like a story there's nothing to do but to deal with it lol

But no, these aren't concerns about the story

giphy.gif
 

s0l0kill

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
856
Atlus has a vocal hatedom? lmao. What doesn't have a vocal hatedom on this site? We hate things for sport.

That's pretty much it, yes. There's also rumors ND has a very progressive work environment that is toxic to conservatives and all sorts of made up stuff that no one bothers to check if it's true or not so it's just accepted as fact, probably cause those people just want to hate on ND and the game. All because Ellie is a lesbian and there is a same sex relationship featured very prominently.
That's weird, we knew she was a lesbian since the first game, now they got the memo? Lol
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
With regards to incel/red-pill tier fuckery- They can go fuck themselves. Developers should NOT give an inch to the overwhelmingly loud and yet ultimately a small group of buyers credence to the point where they can hold power over the future designs of games. No, fuck that.

One thing I will ask however, is how much the gaming media i.e. publishers and the marketing chain (PR and gaming outlets) are responsible for the prominence of GamerGate/incel/alt-right culture. Remember this thread? Early 2000s gaming magazine coverage is a dumpsterfire (Read Mod note in OP)

Today, much of this industry that formed part of the key components of problematic culture, refuse to acknowledge their part in perpetuating very problematic views in retrospect and most times completely disregard discussing the politics in pretty much all games altogether. And of course, the publishers come forth like heroes proclaiming that they are bringing "diversity" as trail blazers (which most of them are not) whilst half-assing it anyway (see Ubisoft, EA and CDPR).

In closing, let the developers not be swayed away from exploring diversity, sexuality and politics that run counter to the policies that govern the kingdom of Incels, GG and alt-right nazi fucks. They are loud but they are not the majority.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
When you don't like a story there's nothing to do but to deal with it lol

But no, these aren't concerns about the story

giphy.gif
I wouldn't know because I don't watch YouTube personalities.

You captured the anti sjw side. I'm sure the people that don't like it for story reasons will wait until the game releases to say them and be respectful of the people who don't want spoilers. At least that's what i would do if i had a channel.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,512
I wouldn't know because I don't watch YouTube personalities.

You captured the anti sjw side. I'm sure the people that don't like it for story reasons will wait until the game releases to say them and be respectful of the people who don't want spoilers. At least that's what i would do if i had a channel.

Hope so, people should at least know the whole story (and how it plays obv) before judging it.
 

SneakersSO

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,353
North America
I think what it boils down to and what a lot of people forget is that ND are making their game. It's not being made specifically for any one gamer, yes it's an entertainment product and it's a business but you'll find a lot of developers are just working on something they want to do personally because it's their game, their story etc.
So when leaks happen and 'fans' hear something that doesn't mesh up with their vision of what should happen in a sequel for 'their' beloved characters them of course misguided hate begins. When in actual fact it was never theirs in the first place and ND have every right to do what they want to it however they see fit. Yes it could cause them financial ruin if it was off the wall crazy but that's their choice. Consumers of entertainment need to realise this, from Music to TV etc. There's a difference between putting out a BAD product and something that does something with the property that may not fit your view for the characters etc

I actually second this. As a game dev myself, I don't always appreciate others telling me how I should actualize my vision & why. I totally get that. It can be hard to remember that when I find myself disappointed with a game or story or experience.

The story leaks pushed me to not get TLoU 2, and TLoU 1 is in my top 5 games of all time, thats how much I don't enjoy the scenario they drummed up here. Obviously, context is king, and if some more detail comes out in the future that makes me okay with what was done in this story, maybe i'll reconsider and play it. Despite that, however, I would never want to be in a scenario where ND was actually just making a story that catered to me or my tastes. A part of me genuinely applauds them for their boldness. Unfortunately its something I want no part in, and thats okay; it'll be beloved without me.
 

Duffking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,695
I expect the far right will just whine louder and louder then eventually disappear due to running out of energy when it comes to this pariticular sort of thing. Maybe where I'm based it's a bit of a bubble but the culture inside most AAA studios and indies these days from my experience seems to be trending heavily into ensuring a positive workplace culture - studios where I am can be quite competitive about it. It's often a question from candidates with any amount of an experience - what's the culture like here? Everyone knows what everyone else is doing culturally and don't want to be the studio people visit and go "hmm, not sure about the people". Game workplace culture will keep going in a progressive/inclusive direction whether they like or not, becuase I doubt any of them are going to get hired anywhere anytime soon. It'll have been the norm for long enough that these people will just go away probably. It's just taking time for them to realise that the vast majority of people making games aren't like them, and haven't really been for a long time.

As for discussion of the game itself it's probably doomed already, I can already see how it's going to go if the game doesn't go over well for people - there's enough people whining about the politics of it that if other people do have legitimate gripes about the game then they'll just be dismissed as one of those people too.
 

Elephant

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,786
Nottingham, UK
I don't know the spoilers, but did see some comments along the lines of Naughty Dog writing it with a SJW agenda that somehow affects the impact of the original story. Which says to me this is more than "Ellie is gay" as that's common knowledge and not something anyone was outraged about previously. I guess I'd be lying to say there isn't concern as a fan of the original, as i don't have any context as to what they're referring to. But it doesn't scare me, as it's still a game I will get.

Of course, whenever there's a dog-pile from any group, there's huge amounts of hyperbole whether it's, "everything is has a SJW agenda", or the other side of, "everything is racist/sexist", so I tend not to get caught up in these things, play the game or whatever and judge for myself.
 

BobsReset

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 26, 2017
912
If the game is upsetting the alt-right then I am going to buy it day one to see why.

sounds like the game itself isnt being blasted, more the progressive values the game brings to the forefront which is VERY different. Maybe the OP should be updated with that context.
 
Oct 24, 2019
6,560
I'm not the person you quoted, but I guess I'm living under a rock too if not actively following other gaming media and not being interested in opening and following spoiler threads here counts as living under a rock.

I haven't opened a single spoiler thread either. I was responding to the part where they said they weren't even aware there was any sort of controversy around TLOU 2. That has been on the front page of *every* site, including several threads on this one. Literally all you need to see is a single headline to know that there's some sort of controversy.

That user was acting outraged that they've been spoiled by the mere fact that now they know there's a controversy lol.
 
Nov 14, 2017
1,587
Wait, so people are shitting on this game because it has lesbians?

Where was this outrage when Left Behind released? Please don't tell me that the only reason people are criticizing the story is because Ellie is a lesbian, something that was known since 2014 with the DLC. That would be really fucking sad.
 

Lyre

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 12, 2020
2,996
London
They need to make a spin-off parody called 'The Last Libertarian' mocking these clowns.