Game Developers - does the reaction to The Last of Us 2 Spoilers scare you?

[Vire]

Who would have thought? Naughty Dog once hailed as Naughty "Gods", now being lambasted with every expletive imaginable after spoilers hit the internet. One moment on top of the world, in a blink of an eye being shredded on YouTube to the host of hundreds of idiotic red pillers. Even looking at the video Neil posted on the ND channel has 10k likes and 10k dislikes.

Does this kind of extreme volatile reaction make you question a given decision when making a game? Does it scare you to see how quickly fortunes or reputation can turn, even if unintentionally? Do you ever think in the back of your head, well I wonder how the masses will receive this? No we shouldn't remove the Battle Rifle, people would go nuts!

Or fuck those people, we are going to make the game we want to make?

You have to wonder what a sister studio looking from a far like a SSM or Sucker Punch is processing this fallout. Is Cory just sitting in his room thinking to himself "Jesus fucking Christ"

It may sound like an over dramatization of the events, but after reading the hyperbolic comments, it's hard not to feel like the sky is falling. The swath of army of hateful comments is frankly terrifying so I can't imagine what it feels like from the game devs perspective.

Moreover, have you ever made a decision on a game that you stand by despite the public universally hating it?

 

[Feep]

My next game is generally progressive and I do somewhat fear some kind of targeted attacks or review bombing.

But fuck 'em. My grandfather fought in a World War. The least I can do to stick it to some Nazis is release something full of acceptance and love.

 

[Maximo]

Seeing how people have been reacting hell go on any Naughty Dog employee's twitter that has posted about TLOU2 recently and its no fucking wonder developers want to avoid talking to gamers like the plague, bunch of psychos.

 

[Vire]

My next game is generally progressive and I do somewhat fear some kind of targeted attacks or review bombing.

But fuck 'em. My grandfather fought in a World War. The least I can do to stick it to some Nazis is release something full of acceptance and love.

Click to shrink...

Right fucking on, I'll be first in line to check it out. I feel like this is the only way we can progress as an industry, just to continually force feed these people their medicine.

 

[The Last One]

I didn't read any spoilers so far but seeing how the alt-rights are reacting to it it makes me even more excited for the game.

Edit: Btw I know this is a little off-topic but I wanted to share my expectations.

 

[Mr. Genuine]

As someone who would call themselves a mild fan of the original, and equally mildly excited for the sequel, this whole drama is one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen on the internet. The Last of Us II leaked just like every video game ever. So fucking what? Someone in the original thread when the news broke said this is worth ruining someone's life for. What the hell is going on?

 

[endlessflood]

I haven't read any spoilers, or followed the leak. Is the backlash about the actual game, or about Naughty Dog itself?

 

[DarthBuzzard]

feel like this is the only way we can progress as an industry, just to continually force feed these people their medicine.

Click to shrink...

Couldn't be more true.

Developers are where major innovations come from, not consumers. We'd still be playing ATARI games if everything was at the decision of the average gamer. We don't need armchair developers dictating the game industry. Developers should always do what they want first and foremost and adapt based on fan feedback only if it makes logical sense.

 

[vestan]

I haven't read any spoilers, or followed the leak. Is the backlash about the actual game, or about Naughty Dog itself?

Click to shrink...

a mix of both, mainly the actual game though

 

[Callibretto]

I haven't read any spoilers, or followed the leak. Is the backlash about the actual game, or about Naughty Dog itself?

Click to shrink...

Both I think. Some people didn't like where the story go and they blame ND for making it

Edit: or maybe just Neil, I don't know. I stay away from social media and has been avoiding clicking gaming related video on youtube

 

[Memento]

I haven't read any spoilers, or followed the leak. Is the backlash about the actual game, or about Naughty Dog itself?

Click to shrink...

I didnt read the spoilers too, but it seems like the whole situation kind of empowered the alt right (especially homophobes) and they are now attacking the game for dealing with some progressive themes (particulary the exploration of LGBT+ representation with Ellie and the depiction of her romance with Dina)

Supposedly the leaks also made them mad so I am even more excited about the game now lol

The worst thing is people using the reported Naughty Dog crunch culture as a shield for these hate comments directed to the studio... which sounds dumb as hell to me because it clearly shows they dont care about the employees at all, they just want to use it as an excuse to be hateful assholes

 

[AFI-kun]

Why haven't people called out the fact that a lot of these complaints and reactions are smokescreens for homophobic and transphobic campaigns? These are the same quarters that have been lambasting the game since the trailer with Dina (if not earlier with Left Behind). They've even now managed to coopt the generally progressive call for better labor conditions so now most press outlets are weary of writing anything lest they be seen as protecting an abusive employer.

It's a pretty obvious campaign by regressive groups to lower excitement for the game and go "Hey, look, people don't want LGBT people in games just look at the sales for TLOU vs TLOU2!". Don't get me wrong, the game can still turn out bad and horrible and even absolutely mangle the themes and characters it's going for but I was at least hoping people could tell the difference between *that* and a deliberate campaign by the same groups that have done the same things for the last couple of years.

 

[AllChan7]

Seeing how people have been reacting hell go on any Naughty Dog employee's twitter that has posted about TLOU2 recently and its no fucking wonder developers want to avoid talking to gamers like the plague, bunch of psychos.

Click to shrink...

I think we've always known the gaming community to have a lot of bad apples. But this leak has really brought it out of them in waves of hate. I have seen some positivity but the vocal minority is extremely loud right now. I just don't understand how a game with 0 microtransactions, loot boxes, season passes or other questionable forms of monetization can cause so much hate. All because of people believing false spoilers and blowing up about the real ones.

 

[Deleted member 12833]

a mix of both, mainly the actual game though

Click to shrink...

Nah. Most of it is political anti-SJW crap.

 

[Dark Ninja]

As someone who's worked on a game that had leaks where the fanbase is volatile that made constant rant videos against there nothing surprising at all to this. The "political" reasons the naughty dog devs are getting harassed is just one aspect of how toxic people can be. Im not gonna say its "gamers" because its just people alot of them can be assholes. They are going after Naughty dog for a different reason but just look at the Pokemon fanbase, Battlefield V, Smash Brothers character selections, COD fanbase in general, Lootbox, Micros, all these get devs attacked many who don't even have power to change any of these things if they were "bad decisions". A bunch of minor shit that gets people death threats to daily harassment messages. One of the many reasons why MANY don't list where they work or who they are in social media and keep their Linkedins outdated and as private as possible since you always have detectives looking at what you have worked on before. Once your game is targeted everything is doubled down by fans, youtubers, streamers and new sites. Negativity drives clicks so its just something you have to learn to get used to. I know people who got personally depressed by tweets and videos. Usually HR is good about this at companies though and you can get help if you need any. Unfortunately its part of general media now. I still think game devs or creators in general should make whatever they want whether its driven by fan opinions or not.

 

[Decarb]

I haven't read any spoilers, or followed the leak. Is the backlash about the actual game, or about Naughty Dog itself?

Click to shrink...

A female gay character like Ellie being the main protagonist seems to trigger a lot of people. I wish it was as simple and innocent as console wars, that's how fucked up it is.

My next game is generally progressive and I do somewhat fear some kind of targeted attacks or review bombing.

But fuck 'em. My grandfather fought in a World War. The least I can do to stick it to some Nazis is release something full of acceptance and love.

Click to shrink...

You have my sword

 

[Memento]

Why haven't people called out the fact that a lot of these complaints and reactions are smokescreens for homophobic and transphobic campaigns? These are the same quarters that have been lambasting the game since the trailer with Dina (if not earlier with Left Behind). They've even now managed to coopt the generally progressive call for better labor conditions so now most press outlets are weary of writing anything lest they be seen as protecting an abusive employer.

It's a pretty obvious campaign by regressive groups to lower excitement for the game and go "Hey, look, people don't want LGBT people in games just look at the sales for TLOU vs TLOU2!". Don't get me wrong, the game can still turn out bad and horrible and even absolutely mangle the themes and characters it's going for but I was at least hoping people could tell the difference between *that* and a deliberate campaign by the same groups that have done the same things for the last couple of years.

Click to shrink...

Exactly

It is super frustrating

 

[Vire]

I'd love to see a prominent game dev write a detailed op-ed basically break down the aforementioned points and what is systematically wrong about the hate that the gaming community breeds.

Not that Naughty Dog needs someone to take a bullet for them, but to at least show some solidarity between game developers. Maybe once the game releases we can have a reflective look back.

There was an interesting article that addresses this topic on VG247, please beware if you are spoiler sensitive.

 

[nib95]

My next game is generally progressive and I do somewhat fear some kind of targeted attacks or review bombing.

But fuck 'em. My grandfather fought in a World War. The least I can do to stick it to some Nazis is release something full of acceptance and love.

Click to shrink...

Well, whatever game it is you're working on, I'll buy a copy. You have my sword.

 

[Dylan]

Does the perceived online reception translate to a significant % of their actual customer-base? I would assume a good many people don't know or care.

 

[Vire]

As someone who's worked on a game that had leaks where the fanbase is volatile that made constant rant videos against there nothing surprising at all to this. The "political" reasons the naughty dog devs are getting harassed is just one aspect of how toxic people can be. Im not gonna say its "gamers" because its just people alot of them can be assholes. They are going after Naughty dog for a different reason but just look at the Pokemon fanbase, Battlefield V, Smash Brothers character selections, COD fanbase in general, Lootbox, Micros, all these get devs attacked many who don't even have power to change any of these things if they were "bad decisions". A bunch of minor shit that gets people death threats to daily harassment messages. One of the many reasons why MANY don't list where they work or who they are in social media and keep their Linkedins outdated and as private as possible since you always have detectives looking at what you have worked on before. Once your game is targeted everything is doubled down by fans, youtubers, streamers and new sites. Negativity drives clicks so its just something you have to learn to get used to. I know people who got personally depressed by tweets and videos. Usually HR is good about this at companies though and you can get help if you need any. Unfortunately its part of general media now. I still think game devs or creators in general should make whatever they want whether its driven by fan opinions or not.

Click to shrink...

Thank you for your insight and yes I agree which I why I brought up a battle rifle as an example in the OP lol. People want to kill your first born child for changing the way the shotgun works in Gears of War. It's insanity.

Does the perceived online reception translate to a significant % of their actual customer-base? I would assume a good many people don't know or care.

Click to shrink...

That is a great question that I would love to know the answer to.

 

[Izanagi89]

I so much would like to know what the fuck happened in the leaks to cause such a volatile reaction but I've been waiting for this game for years and I'm in no way gonna spoil it for myself to understand why some assholes are literally out there trying to destroy ND and spoil the game for everyone else. Just always irks me that some of these folks feel like they're on some holy crusade and that they have the 'truth' on their side so that no matter their actions, however vile, are justified....urgh.

 

[Parenegade]

I didn't even know there was a negative reception to the spoilers but thanks for that. Now I'll play through the whole game with that knowledge that people were upset about something.

What the actual fuck

 

[Mechaplum]

Loud imbeciles are loud.

 

[Izanagi89]

A female gay character like Ellie being the main protagonist seems to trigger a lot of people. I wish it was as simple and innocent as console wars, that's how fucked up it is.

Click to shrink...

I'm still so confused by this. Wasn't all this established in the DLC also already. What were they expecting from Ellie in the sequel??

 

[Cosmic Voyager]

I didn't even know there was a negative reception to the spoilers but thanks for that. Now I'll play through the whole game with that knowledge that people were upset about something.

What the actual fuck

Click to shrink...

What kind of rock have you been living under? Lol

 

[udivision]

There's really only a handful of games that could get this kind of reaction from spoilers, so most devs are probably fine.

 

[Memento]

I'm still so confused by this. Wasn't all this established in the DLC also already. What were they expecting from Ellie in the sequel??

Click to shrink...

They are just interested on lesbians if they exist to be sexual objects and pander to their porn fetish imagery

Otherwise it is all about "forcing an agenda"

 

[Deleted member 679]

Those people are just grasping at straws to validate their narrative. There's nothing particularly progressive about the spoilers themselves. Having Ellie kissing Dina in an E3 conference was way more impactful than anything in the leaks as far as being progressive goes.

Those who were upset about that but couldn't admit they just couldn't stand two women kissing are now seeing validation for their previous behavior in extreme minute details.

If anything, there are more valid concerns about less than ideal minority representation in Part II than "SJW agenda".

Which is why I kind of avoid touching this subject in this context, because they just have nothing. It's completely irrelevant. They're preaching to their choir who will agree with anything they say, but they don't have any real arguments, because they're fighting ghosts, there's really nothing worthy of note in the game itself, other than it having an openly gay woman as the protagonist in a AAA game.

I guess my point is that the one E3 trailer was the reason why they're making ranting videos or whatever now, not anything in the actual spoilers. It was the mere fact of them showing two girls kissing that brought this reaction. Homophobes exist, unfortunately. We can't really belive this is enough reason to scare people of depicting something as innocent as that in their games.

 

[DaciaJC]

I didn't even know there was a negative reception to the spoilers but thanks for that. Now I'll play through the whole game with that knowledge that people were upset about something.

What the actual fuck

Click to shrink...

I assume you're just taking the piss here, yet I can't help but wonder.

 

[Blitzwolf215]

So I have been avoiding anything involving spoilers with the game since the leaks were announced. I was unaware there was backlash from the story leaks. But from what I'm hearing in this thread, the only ones mad are whiny homophobic incel assholes whose opinions I really shouldn't care about, right?

 

[Faenix1]

Everyone acts like they've played the game, but as far as I know we just have story beats and cutscenes out of context

Bunch of idiots.

 

[RisingStar]

I do feel like loads of people on forums like here and Reddit are being critical of the crunch culture, but fake news and peoples own narratives are driving this drama further than any other studio who experienced a leak of this magnitude.

While I do feel like loads of angry right wing gamers are attacking Naughty Dog and their employees for what they've done with the sequel and their favorite characters, but at the same time there needs to be a fine line of where the actual criticisms of crunch culture begin and where they are used as a mask to cover up homophobia and general left wing hatred.

We are living through very political times right now in media and especially during a pandemic where people are bored and have nothing else to do but comment their every thought on Twitter. Toxic Twitter culture has always existed but this is definitely next level concerning a game, that isn't technically bad at all. Neither does it have sneaky microtransactions that take advantage of the player. The white knighting just feels extremely ironic to me, as it's usually followed up or superseded with angry anti-lgbtq comments.

If the gaming community and media really gave two fucks about making a "statement of intent" with regards to crunch culture, they will review bomb the game so everyone in the industry learns a lesson, but that would never happen. It'll be a great game and loads of reviewers can't simply slate a game for how it was developed instead of the product that people are buying.

I do expect this game getting loads of hate from right wing people throughout the year. Even successful movies like Captain Marvel and actresses like Bree Larson, (despite what you may think of it), still gets angry right wing hate to this day. Naughty Dog knew this reaction was bound to happen regardless of the leak, so I expect them to weather through it and fight back against discrimination. (but do change your office culture)

 

[Siggy-P]

A large, if not majority, of the seething hatred online has been driven by transphobia towards something specific. And not that it makes it any less disgusting but it's also misplaced transphobia as the character isn't even trans.

 

[Euron]

So I have been avoiding anything involving spoilers with the game since the leaks were announced. I was unaware there was backlash from the story leaks. But from what I'm hearing in this thread, the only ones mad are whiny homophobic incel assholes whose opinions I really shouldn't care about, right?

Click to shrink...

In the same boat here. I've tried to avoid the spoiler discussion entirely but I saw Schreier debunk the disgruntled employee leak story. I thought we've known Ellie's sexuality for years? It was even reiterated in the E3 demo.

How do these people even function in the real world with such an intense hatred of LGBT people? Unless you went to Liberty University or have lived in a basement and read nothing but bad subreddits, there isn't a school or company out there that tolerates such intense phobias.

 

[McScroggz]

My next game is generally progressive and I do somewhat fear some kind of targeted attacks or review bombing.

But fuck 'em. My grandfather fought in a World War. The least I can do to stick it to some Nazis is release something full of acceptance and love.

Click to shrink...

Now this is a first post I can get behind.

 

[Deleted member 19213]

My next game is generally progressive and I do somewhat fear some kind of targeted attacks or review bombing.

But fuck 'em. My grandfather fought in a World War. The least I can do to stick it to some Nazis is release something full of acceptance and love.

Click to shrink...

I applaud your stance on making a game that promotes acceptance and love. Imo however, the leaks of TLOU Part II don't promote acceptance and love. There's acceptance of progressive ideals (Left Behind is met with positive feedback, so this series fanbase is accepting of progressive ideals, in general ) and then there's this game which does things that fans hate based on spoilers. It's not about the audience disliking progressiveness, it's about the audience disliking the story.

Once contextualized, everything might come together and maybe the fanbase will get behind it. I certainly hope it's good.

 

[McScroggz]

Why haven't people called out the fact that a lot of these complaints and reactions are smokescreens for homophobic and transphobic campaigns? These are the same quarters that have been lambasting the game since the trailer with Dina (if not earlier with Left Behind). They've even now managed to coopt the generally progressive call for better labor conditions so now most press outlets are weary of writing anything lest they be seen as protecting an abusive employer.

It's a pretty obvious campaign by regressive groups to lower excitement for the game and go "Hey, look, people don't want LGBT people in games just look at the sales for TLOU vs TLOU2!". Don't get me wrong, the game can still turn out bad and horrible and even absolutely mangle the themes and characters it's going for but I was at least hoping people could tell the difference between *that* and a deliberate campaign by the same groups that have done the same things for the last couple of years.

Click to shrink...

So I'm trying my best to avoid spoilers but I haven't gotten the sense that the people in here that say that hate whatever decision ND made and aren't interested in the game are doing so because the leak has something to do with LGBTQ issues or anything. If I'm wrong and that's what people have been getting upset over they should be perma banned and should feel ashamed of themselves.

I'm guessing it's just some dark story event that would be at home in The Road. But hopefully I'm able to avoid spoilers until the game comes out to find out for myself.

 

[The Emperor]

Yes I'm sure they are you only have to see some of the ridiculous reactions in the FFVII Remake Spoiler thread as well to the ending. and to TLJ...even to TROS (yes JJ Abrams made a crap movie but the personal attacks on him are ridiculous...even on this website)

People need to realise there are bigger things in the world than video games...entertainment is entertainment. Be excited. Be passionate. But as soon as you start to hate or let it affect your mental health...reflect on it. Is it worth it? Is it worth spiralling to the dark side? is it worth...acting like this about a video game?

Now luckily only devs of huge series' need worry about such reactions.

 

[Gordon's Tulpa]

Both I think. Some people didn't like where the story go and they blame ND for making it

Edit: or maybe just Neil, I don't know. I stay away from social media and has been avoiding clicking gaming related video on youtube

Click to shrink...

Have been avoiding any and all spoiler related talk, but if it's about the games direction then the game will prove itself once it's out and the reviews come in. The game is selling gangbusters already, so I'm sure that Naughty dog is fully aware theyrw targeted by the coordinated smear attacks of a small group of toxic assholes.

What annoys me though, is that the OP portrays this idea that the studio somehow has fallen from grace. This might be true fromcthe from the gaze of gamings most toxic individuals, but why are we acting like this is truth?

 

[Gordon's Tulpa]

So I have been avoiding anything involving spoilers with the game since the leaks were announced. I was unaware there was backlash from the story leaks. But from what I'm hearing in this thread, the only ones mad are whiny homophobic incel assholes whose opinions I really shouldn't care about, right?

Click to shrink...

Right.
As for naughty dogs, I hope they find pride in The fact that they riled up the right. It means their game is stretching the medium in the right direction. I hope they wear it like a badge of honor.

 

[AstralTurfWarrior]

What kind of rock have you been living under? Lol

Click to shrink...

I'm not the person you quoted, but I guess I'm living under a rock too if not actively following other gaming media and not being interested in opening and following spoiler threads here counts as living under a rock.

 

[Thekiddfran]

Thankfully the majority of people that buy this game will never even know about the leak. I have noticed a weird vibe surrounding this game. People seem to want this to fail. Now obviously it will sell millions and win loads of awards. It's just strange to me what people want a game to fail.

 

[DrScissorsMD]

Removed, was banned

 

[DeoGame]

I think the jury is still out. The anti-SJW crowd will always be the anti-SJW crowd. Most of them had their knives sharpened from the start and many of their criticisms should be taken with a grain of salt. That said, among TLOU fans this seems divisive and the final execution needs to be seen.

On paper, Avengers Infinity War and Endgame, Deadpool 2, Star Wars The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker, Terminator Dark Fate and Game of Thrones Season 8 sounded bad for many and lead to endless debates. For the first three, fan response was in the end quite positive. For the latter bunch, fan response (again divorced from the anti-SJW crowd) was still incredibly divisive and arguably cost these properties brand equity and sales.

If TLOU 2 is an Endgame, we will look back on this thread and laugh. But if it is a Last Jedi or god forbid Game of Thrones Season 8, then I would be cautious about greenlighting a third and maybe make a new IP or other game.

Again, jury is still out, and I'm simply approaching this from a PR/Marketing perspective.

 

[DeoGame]

So I have been avoiding anything involving spoilers with the game since the leaks were announced. I was unaware there was backlash from the story leaks. But from what I'm hearing in this thread, the only ones mad are whiny homophobic incel assholes whose opinions I really shouldn't care about, right?

Click to shrink...

In my experience I've found many in that camp, but also a good number who are just TLOU fans, particularly here. So maybe manage expectations (which is frankly important for anything) a tad, but I think many of the controversial "talking points" are just anti-SJW stuff.

 

[Phendrift]

I feel like an underlying message in some of the posts in this thread is that it's only toxic gamers and alt right people who are upset at the spoilers and from what I've gathered by reading the spoiler thread that's.... not really the case. Lots of posters here don't like the leaked plot details for reasons outside of progressivism.

Like, I don't think that's the main cause of the hate at all?

 

[elenarie]

Does this kind of extreme volatile reaction make you question a given decision when making a game? Does it scare you to see how quickly fortunes or reputation can turn, even if unintentionally? Do you ever think in the back of your head, well I wonder how the masses will receive this? No we shouldn't remove the Battle Rifle, people would go nuts!

Or fuck those people, we are going to make the game we want to make?

Moreover, have you ever made a decision on a game that you stand by despite the public universally hating it?

Click to shrink...

After Battlefield V, nothing scares me, worries me nor surprises me anymore. :)

For the last part, all the time. People will end up disliking many decisions you make for a game, and that's fine. There are many complexities involved in making a game, running a service and managing a studio, that an outsider couldn't possibly understand.

 

[leburn98]

I feel like it's a bit unfair to suggest that the criticism is being lobbed by homophobic idiots. I have read plenty of tweets, post and concerns from the LGBT community concerning the portrayal of a certain character (not Ellie) or how the story does not put the community in a good light. As such, some have even accused Naughty Dog of being phobic based on the leaked story. Sadly I think the basis of most of these concerns are likely from a false leak but it's past the point now where it may as well be true.

 

[Decarb]

I'm still so confused by this. Wasn't all this established in the DLC also already. What were they expecting from Ellie in the sequel??

Click to shrink...

There's more but it would be considered spoiler territory. Some of it turned out to be fake but its not easy to stop the hate train when it is steaming at full speed.