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digitalrelic

Weight Loss Champion 2018: Biggest Change
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,124
From Team Blur Games Co-Founder / Design Lead Gavin Stevens. Found this very interesting, so I thought it was thread worthy. It's a long read, but worth it.

Twitter thread (read it this way if possible, as it contains pictures):


Direct text
You're going to hear a lot about why SFS (Sampler Feedback Streaming) is such a big deal and why its so important in maximising the potential of the Xbox Series X hardware with regard to its Velocity Architecture. So lets take a very brief and fast look at things.

First, textures. Games are made up of textures, of which a single surface can contain several. What looks like one simple visual asset to you in the game world, can actually contain many. Commonly, surfaces are created with a bare minimum of: Diffuse, Specular and Normal. However, they can also contain separate channels for masking, power and scale variables, height maps, parallax occlusion or displacement maps etc. These are usually best served in the same native resolution as the diffuse, but can be any size, larger or smaller.

So, a standard texture set contains several assets. Assets will vary in size depending on resolution, and compression method used. For reference, a standard 2048x2048 texture set will be D/N/S, of which each file is 12mb, so, 36mb in total. Next gen, 4096x4096 and 8192x8192 will be more common. A standard 4096 set is 48mb each (144mb) and 8192 is a massive 192mb each (576mb). Adding in other surfaces you can see how these add up. However, that's not a fair assumption, as usually, we compress these images to save file size on disk. But we also do other tricks, such as greyscale specular, or lower resolution spec maps. There are many ways to save size here.

But, lets go with a standard 4096 set, at 144mb, uncompressed. Now, every texture asset is comprised of something called a "mip". Mip maps are, essentially, lower resolution versions of the same asset. The reason for this is that when an asset is used in the current scene, if you use too low res an image it will look awful, but likewise too high res an image will look utterly terrible at distance and appear to what we call sparkle (almost like looking at a pixelated version of the image). So we blend between these textures as needed.

Modern game engines handle this process automatically. Throw in a 512x512 and the engine will load the correct mips as required. But what are the "correct mips"? A mip is created for a texture that is exactly half of the X and Y axis of the previous. In English, this means 512x512 would be our source, and then 256x256, 128, 64, 32, 16 etc. So as you can see, the higher resolution your base asset is, the more mips are required. Again remember this is done for EVERY asset, texture wise.

Now... Lets get back to SFS. A normal method of handling this data is that we have to load the whole texture into memory. Yes, that means if you have, lets say a player model, and he uses a 8192 res texture, you have no way around this. You load that 8192 texture. If the player is in your face, or if he's 1 mile away shooting somebody else, it doesn't matter... If the engine thinks that asset is needed, its in memory. Remember, I said its not just ONE asset either, but multiple. So, think of the sheer amount of data that could be needed, for a single character that's a mile away, which takes up 1cm on your 65" OLED. Traditional systems, and yes the PS5, work this way. But with SFS, you don't. And this is the game changer.

SFS will essentially only load the required mips and totally ignore everything else that would usually need to be called into memory. Why is that important? Simple. Because now, that half a gigs worth of uncompressed data, is just 576......kb. You now only need to load the texture from 128x128 (example), due to the sheer distance. Of course, this will change based on proximity, but works for any surface. Game world textures, characters etc. You will ALWAYS be close to something, but far away from others.

So now, you are loading in much, much, much less texture data. Why is that such a big deal? Because now, you need much LESS IO throughput to move assets in and out of memory. You can load things quicker, for less hit, but still at the quality desired.

In short this actually moves around the need for a higher bandwidth, and allows the same fidelity, at a lower cost. Which not only equals more memory to play with for assets), but also faster performance.

The PS5 SSD is faster than the series X. Of that, there is absolutely nobody with a brain who will tell you otherwise. However, there is more than one way to skin a cat, and SFS is an absolute game changer in keeping up with the (brilliant) PS5 drive. Couple this with sustained speeds that are a few tf higher and other tricks for rendering higher quality assets in the near frustum (I'm looking forward to seeing how MS tackle a DLSS 2.0 alternative too!) and its clear to see why the Series X is such a damn fine machine.

He also states that the PS5 works the traditional way and does not currently have a Sampler Feedback Streaming method. Some fascinating stuff, for sure.

All I can say is this upcoming generation is going to be a doozy!
 
May 7, 2020
2,819
giphy.gif

:P
 

Gamer17

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,399
Isnt this guy a user on era and was banned because of warrior reasons and calling Jason names? Or I m misremembering?
 

Betelgeuse

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,941
Wasn't he permabanned from Era for console warring?
Isnt this guy a user on era and was banned because of warrior reasons and calling Jason names? Or I m misremembering?
Same guy, not banned:
If you're worried about Xbox series S holding back Series X, are you also worried about PS5 holding back Series X? In a real environment it doesn't work like this. Both the S, X and PS5 will run the same media just with different settings*. This isn't the same case as Xbox One X to Series X.

*obvious bar a few exceptions.

And as for Jason, I made a simple comment a few pages back. And I'll stand by that comment as my own personal view on the matter, but accept others have their own. I wish I kept my mouth shut now but hey ho. What I will say Jason is that you blocked me on twitter for saying something positive about the Xbox when some guys were slagging it off on one of your posts. No previous engagement from me, no chat, nothing. I simply corrected a Sony guy on some quite odd technical facts, and boom, you blocked me. Kinda makes a person think.
Actually, I just looked you up. I blocked you on Twitter for saying "Does Neil not realise Schreier bleeds blue, to the point he burns if he has to say anything positive about another company...? This must be hurting Schreier very hard..." https://twitter.com/Gavavva/status/1272247847434489865

Then you wrote this gem: https://twitter.com/Gavavva/status/1272252907019218945

Real class act over here. Amazing that you're lying when this happened less than two weeks ago, too.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,499
I don't get why are we attacking the poster instead of the discussing the content. He's a developer and seems to have intimate knowledge of both machines. The more insight, the better.
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,110
So it's a much more efficient way of loading textures for assets.
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
I don't get why are we attacking the poster instead of the discussing the content. He's a developer a seems to have intimate knowledge of both machines. The more insight, the better.

The reason is found looking at all Microsoft related threads from the past days. Can't have decent discussion about Xbox, all positive comments are shills/trolls/empty PR/lies.
 

TechnicPuppet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,833
Interesting reading about the XSX. I assume PS5 could have something similar as well though. Things will become clearer when they launch unless they both deep dive beforehand.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,053
if you have different LODs for your models, wouldn't you have different sized textures for them, and therefore diferent numbers of mipmaps? For a character far away you wouldn't be using the LOD0 model with high res textures.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,533
This is great. Hopefully it means devs will be fully able to utilise the PS5's I/O and SSD and not have to worry about how it'll play elsewhere.
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,110
if you have different LODs for your models, wouldn't you have different sized textures for them, and therefore diferent numbers of mipmaps? For a character far away you wouldn't be using the LOD0 model with high res textures.
I figure so but it might still be loading every needed texture instead of just a single one. I'd have to see this tech in action before I really can see what it's doing
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,276
I don't get why are we attacking the poster instead of the discussing the content. He's a developer a seems to have intimate knowledge of both machines. The more insight, the better.

I don't find it likely that they have intimate knowledge of both machines. I'm not sure why someone would endanger their relationship with platform holders for Twitter clout. Most of what I see in those tweets is a restating of stuff that I had already seen/heard through other public channels.
 

giblet

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
179
This is just the right amount of correct to make people believe it. It's wrong though. Why do people think mip maps exist ?
 

Minthara

Freelance Market Director
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
7,920
Montreal
Considering the source, I'd take this information with the most giant grain of salt possible.
 

Jaxar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,048
Australia
So the XBX will have ways to close the gap on the relative SSD shortfalls, and the PS5 will have ways to close the gap on the relative GPU shortfalls.

I don't know about anyone else but I'm totally over that sort of PR talk now. I'm dead keen on seeing these new machines launch and let the games and services do the talking. Bring on the launch dates!
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
Sounds like a software implementation? Don't see why the PS5 couldn't use a similar implementation for it's SSD.

There is no way to close such a gap by the way. However I don't think they really need to in most situations.
 

caiocmsouza

Member
Jan 31, 2018
158
Sounds like a software implementation? Don't see why the PS5 couldn't use a similar implementation for it's SSD.

There is no way to close such a gap by the way. However I don't think they really need to in most situations.

Sampler Feedback Streaming (SFS) – A component of the Xbox Velocity Architecture, SFS is a feature of the Xbox Series X hardware that allows games to load into memory, with fine granularity, only the portions of textures that the GPU needs for a scene, as it needs it. This enables far better memory utilization for textures, which is important given that every 4K texture consumes 8MB of memory. Because it avoids the wastage of loading into memory the portions of textures that are never needed, it is an effective 2x or 3x (or higher) multiplier on both amount of physical memory and SSD performance

news.xbox.com

Defining the Next Generation: An Xbox Series X|S Technology Glossary - Xbox Wire

[Editor’s Note: Updated on 10/21 at 11AM to ensure it is now reflective of the capabilities across both of our next-gen Xbox consoles following the unveil of Xbox Series S.] As we enter a new generation of console gaming with Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S, we’ve made a number of technology...
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
2.4GB/s raw and 4.8GB/s compressed isn't going to close the gap with something that is 5.5GB/s raw and 9GB/s compressed.
 

Jonnax

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,920
I don't get why are we attacking the poster instead of the discussing the content. He's a developer and seems to have intimate knowledge of both machines. The more insight, the better.
Who are they? What next gen game are they making?
Googling I find no info.
Their dev studio has 123 twitter followers:


Also for someone with intimate knowledge they haven't touched the controller of the PS5 it seems:
KjVJjNs.png
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
Xbox One Secret Sauce all over again
It's the power of the cloud.
lol you know exactly why.
Yes because he was banned for console warring and attacking. So he is tainted and not considered reliable

The reason is found looking at all Microsoft related threads from the past days. Can't have decent discussion about Xbox, all positive comments are shills/trolls/empty PR/lies.
ahh yes of course the fabled xbox is treated like crap here post that always happens. It's bullshit to actually pretend that's accurate
 

Gamer17

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,399
It's the power of the cloud.
Yes because he was banned for console warring and attacking. So he is tainted and not considered reliable
On top of that I m fairly sure he has made it abundantly clear on the other site that he has no access to ps5 or xsx dev kit.

Just something to keep in mind.
 

Guerrilla

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,236
I'm 99% sure he's incorrect, SFS is an RDNA2 (and multiple Nvidia card) feature and should be supported on PS5? Microsoft are probably doing some unique things in software though that should be interesting.

See https://github.com/microsoft/DirectX-Specs/blob/master/d3d/SamplerFeedback.md where it talks about SFS and DirectX 12.
SF in your link is apparently different to SFS mentioned here. I remember someone else being able to explain in another thread
 

Darktalon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,266
Kansas
2.4GB/s raw and 4.8GB/s compressed isn't going to close the gap with something that is 5.5GB/s raw and 9GB/s compressed.
I doubt you actually read all the information presented here. SFS enables potentially a 1000x reduction in a textures memory requirement going off his example. To close the gap between 4.8GB and 9GB, requires less than a 2x reduction.
 

panda-zebra

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,737
Don't think this person has any knowledge of next gen consoles beyond what's been put out by both platformholders publicly, and even then maybe not a complete grasp of all that entails. Even a writer for a website seemed to be schooling him on next gen in that thread he took the week ban in.
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,638
Ah yes, the same guy that whined that Jason blocked him no reason, Jason brought out the receipts and was thus ignored.

Reading his twitter feed it's obvious what he chooses. I would love to hear more insight from someone who has actually worked on them both.
 

AntiMacro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,138
Alberta
There is no way to close such a gap by the way. However I don't think they really need to in most situations.

If you can load a fraction of the assets, that would certainly go a long way towards closing a gap in transfer speeds. We'll have to see how it works in real world application though, and if Sony can't just implement their own system to cull out the non-essential data.
 

natestellar

Member
Sep 16, 2018
835
I don't get why are we attacking the poster instead of the discussing the content. He's a developer and seems to have intimate knowledge of both machines. The more insight, the better.

The said person doesn't have access to either dev-kits as he put it in his own words. His friends in the industry work for the "enemy", I'll leave it up to you what to make of that.

Gavin Stevens said:
As for developers having an issue: From what I heard from my friends who work on actual games that release and don't sit in a bedroom someplace, the reason it would be a concern is that it essentially creates another avenue for testing and QA. I have no friends with direct knowledge of the system existing sadly, as my friends work for "the enemy" lol, but its no more a head ache development wise than it has been on PC for, well, ever. Only now, you need a massive QA step between the Series X and Series S to make sure both work. THAT is the head ache.

Much of the ire stems from the users posting history in addition to his Twitter timeline, go ahead, take a look.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,862
SF in your link is apparently different to SFS mentioned here. I remember someone else being able to explain in another thread
It talks about SFS further down in the link specifically. It functions differently on PC due to needing data to be copied into RAM first apparently (from what I was told in the other thread) versus being to stream straight from the SSD on the XSX, but there's no reason the PS5 couldn't stream straight from the SSD as well.
 

giblet

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
179
SFS is used for Virtual Texturing, he doesn't mention it at all.

No-one loads large textures for objects far away, literally can use the lower mips and a distance test.
Mips are handly for anisotropic filtering as you can sample the lower level mips using a kernel function improve textures at glancing angles.

SFS is form of Feedback Buffer, these exist in any engine that uses Virtual Texturing already.

All a Feedback buffer does, is map the currently loaded textures / mip levels, and figures out if we require the higher fidelity mips.

Here is one! The purple parts need to load textures, the green doesn't. As we progress through frames, we see more of the buffer turning green which indicates the correct mips are loaded for the current view. With Virtual Texturing, these will literally be pages. Purple will be at a lower mip by default.

SFS helps by reducing the complexity of doing things like anisotropic filtering and addressing across page splits as it has a hardware map of this, not a software, so it can pull adjacent and related mips quicker. This isn't some mindblowing tech though.


1TFW2KV.gif
 
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