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mhayze

Member
Nov 18, 2017
555
Hard to say about upcoming improvements since it's in a really good spot. One minor thing might be 48gbit support again which is not a big game changer. I would love to see 240hz support (for 1080p and 1440p at least) but not holding my breath - the OLED panel is capable of blur free 1000hz but held back by the display driver ASIC.
It's probably the best Pc gaming experience large format monitor IMO as is.
 

Spikematic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,357
So now that the issue is finally fixed, can people who own both the TV and an RTX 3080/3090 recommend hdmi 2.1 cables? My TV should arrive on Wednesday so I'm looking around on Amazon and confused about what the best cable would be (in Canada). Also, I'm moving soon and while my PC will still be set up in the living room area it'll probably be somewhat far from the TV. How long can an HDMI cable be before issues start popping up?
 

arnehelst

Member
Oct 28, 2017
143
Downloaded the update from LG eu homepage and now everything is working.

Had a weird black band when I switched to 120hz in the Nvidia Control panel, but it worked when I did it in the windows settings. Also had pull out the hdmi cable for a while before reinserting it, otherwise it would still turn black.

Weird behaviour all around but played for an hour Legion without problems.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,418
Not nearly as good as HDR looks when the display's in low persistence mode. Runs counter to what you'd think, but you get better HDR behavior on these displays when they're not holding @ peak brightness until the next refresh. HDR has much more contrast and fewer errors at the lower light outputs from BFI.
I dont have an option for 120 fps BFI and as far as I can tell 120 with GSync looks better than 60 fps with BFI. Also just ruining it at full fledged 120 hz with Gsync frame dips are going to be less noticeable than a cap at 60fps with dips for whatever reason.
 

Kaldaien

Developer of Special K
Verified
Aug 8, 2020
298
Be interesting to see the input lag measurement at 4k 120hz G-sync at 117fps.
You're aware that problem has nothing to do with the display device, correct? That's a measure of display driver latency caused by flip queueing (and what happens when G-Sync allows that to go out of control) :) I can fix that for you with my own framerate limiter.
 

nStruct

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
3,132
Seattle, WA
So now that the issue is finally fixed, can people who own both the TV and an RTX 3080/3090 recommend hdmi 2.1 cables? My TV should arrive on Wednesday so I'm looking around on Amazon and confused about what the best cable would be (in Canada). Also, I'm moving soon and while my PC will still be set up in the living room area it'll probably be somewhat far from the TV. How long can an HDMI cable be before issues start popping up?

The problem is that there are no certified cables on the market yet, so buyer beware. I'm using the Zeskit (2 meters) that's popular on Amazon US (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07S1CGQ9Z ) and they are working well for me. 4K/120Hz HDR from my 3080 to my CX is no problem with that cable.
 

dsk1210

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,389
Edinburgh UK
You're aware that problem has nothing to do with the display device, correct? That's a measure of display driver latency caused by flip queueing (and what happens when G-Sync allows that to go out of control) :) I can fix that for you with my own framerate limiter.
I was meaning that it should be 6.5ms display lag as it is with 1440p at 120hz unless the extra bandwidth cause higher lag.

I understand what you mean with game lag being different but I would imagine in combination with 120hz capped at 117fps it should feel very responsive. Does that make sense :)
 

Spikematic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,357

NeonBlack

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,508
I upgraded to the version that was on the US site for the C9 (05.00.03) and I'm seeing absolutely no difference. Internet still makes the screen flicker and Gsync makes the tv lose signal when attempting to play. Did I do something wrong or is this just not working? I've already done a factory restore as well.
 

Deleted member 9330

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,990
I upgraded to the version that was on the US site for the C9 (05.00.03) and I'm seeing absolutely no difference. Internet still makes the screen flicker and Gsync makes the tv lose signal when attempting to play. Did I do something wrong or is this just not working? I've already done a factory restore as well.

Did you power down your PC and TV (unplug from the wall) for a certain amount of time? I did five minutes from a recommendation here, other people have said up to an hour if that doesn't do it. Basically let both devices fully discharge, unplug the HDMI cable from both as well to make them re-handshake, and see if that helps.
 

NeonBlack

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,508
Did you power down your PC and TV (unplug from the wall) for a certain amount of time? I did five minutes from a recommendation here, other people have said up to an hour if that doesn't do it. Basically let both devices fully discharge, unplug the HDMI cable from both as well to make them re-handshake, and see if that helps.
Thanks. Seems to have worked for the Gsync issue. The connecting to wifi/ethernet still causes flickering tho.
 

Reektan

Member
Oct 30, 2017
284
Can anyone confirm or link to the ideal settings they're using on their 3080/90 PC / NVIDIA settings and what they're setting on the LG C9/X ?

Have finally just applied the update manually from Europe so now it's settings and cable hell!
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,418
This is the cable I've grabbed too. Amy chance you could let me know your settings? :)

C9 - Game mode on

PC

Capture.png

Capture.png
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,418
Is there a guide on how to update the C9 for 2.1?
So apparently LG Korea posted the new firmware on their site:

And it's supposed to be compatible with US sets? Don't try anything till confirmed, just relaying the info.

Edit: Installed on my US C9 and working perfectly so far. 4K/120 @ RGB Full 10-bit + G-Sync

Or you can go to LG chat online and request an update which I did and got it 4 days afterwards over the air. YMMY as some did and did not get anything for over two weeks.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,989
I dont have an option for 120 fps BFI and as far as I can tell 120 with GSync looks better than 60 fps with BFI. Also just ruining it at full fledged 120 hz with Gsync frame dips are going to be less noticeable than a cap at 60fps with dips for whatever reason.
  • The C9 with BFI at 60Hz has 8.33ms persistence.
  • The CX with BFI has 4.17ms persistence at 60Hz or 120Hz; but 120Hz is twice as bright and flickers half as much.
60 FPS without BFI has 16.67ms persistence, and 120 FPS without BFI has 8.33ms persistence.
So as far as motion blur is concerned, 120 FPS on the C9 is just as good as 60 FPS with BFI enabled; but it's twice as demanding to run. Of course, G-Sync is flicker-free and maintains full brightness, unlike BFI.
With the CX, BFI improves motion handling beyond what 120 FPS does on its own.

Note that persistence is directly linked to frame rate without BFI.
So if the game is running at 90 FPS you have 11.11ms persistence, even if the output is "120Hz".
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,418
  • The C9 with BFI at 60Hz has 8.33ms persistence.
  • The CX with BFI has 4.17ms persistence at 60Hz or 120Hz; but 120Hz is twice as bright and flickers half as much.
60 FPS without BFI has 16.67ms persistence, and 120 FPS without BFI has 8.33ms persistence.
So as far as motion blur is concerned, 120 FPS on the C9 is just as good as 60 FPS with BFI enabled; but it's twice as demanding to run. Of course, G-Sync is flicker-free and maintains full brightness, unlike BFI.
With the CX, BFI improves motion handling beyond what 120 FPS does on its own.

Note that persistence is directly linked to frame rate without BFI.
So if the game is running at 90 FPS you have 11.11ms persistence, even if the output is "120Hz".

So that would be:
  • The C9 with BFI at 60Hz has 8.33ms persistence.
([Rendered_Frame](8.33ms) & [Black_Frame](8.33ms))*60 per second?

  • 120 FPS on the C9/with has 8.33ms persistence.
([Rendered_Frame](8.33ms))*120 per second?


They have the same amount persistence, but wouldn't you still want more frames in that case there is the same amount of persistence?

I can only see that CX with BFI being an advantage vs Gsync if you can hit a locked 120hz on CX which would show a better result. Is that correct?
 
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Jtrizzy

Member
Nov 13, 2017
619
Hopefully they can get BFI working without killing the brightness, and having to disable G-Sync. At some point I'd like to stop this insane upgrade cycle, chasing CRT level motion handling. With my 9900k/3080 setup, upgrading to the CX doesn't seem worth it. Maybe the next gen of OLED can get all of these technologies integrated.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,678
You can output less light without reducing brightness.

You choose brightness or you choose motion clarity: those are your choices.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,989
So that would be:
  • The C9 with BFI at 60Hz has 8.33ms persistence.
([Rendered_Frame](8.33ms) & [Black_Frame](8.33ms))*60 per second?
  • 120 FPS on the C9/with has 8.33ms persistence.
([Rendered_Frame](8.33ms))*120 per second?

They have the same amount persistence, but wouldn't you still want more frames in that case there is the same amount of persistence?
I can only see that CX with BFI being an advantage vs Gsync if you can hit a locked 120hz on CX which would show a better result. Is that correct?
Persistence affects how much motion blur we see. It also has an impact on how smooth the image appears.
Lower image persistence does make motion smoother, but it's not directly equivalent to a higher frame rate - so 120 FPS should still appear smoother than 60 FPS + BFI. That being said: I have not done a side-by-side test of that exact scenario.

Whether you achieve the 8.33ms image persistence via 60 FPS + BFI, or 120 FPS without BFI, you should see a similar amount of motion blur.
The CX with its 4.17ms persistence at 60 FPS + BFI (High) would have less motion blur than the C9 at 120 FPS without BFI (8.33ms), but is probably not as smooth.

The advantage of BFI is that it decouples image persistence from frame rate.
A 60 FPS source could have a persistence of 12.5ms, 8.33ms, 4.17ms, 2.08ms, 1.04ms etc. rather than being locked to 16.67ms.

The downside is that as you reduce persistence with BFI, the image gets dimmer, and it flickers more.
It also requires that you never drop frames, as stuttering becomes more noticeable when it's in use.
So 120 FPS without BFI -particularly with VRR- is still going to be preferable to 60 FPS with it, even if they have the same persistence.

But that only scales so far. 120 FPS is achievable today - though typically in older games or at lower resolutions.
To reduce persistence further with higher frame rates starts to be unrealistic - especially if you were to try and match a CRT which has less than 1ms of persistence. 1000 FPS at 1000Hz is not going to happen any time soon.

There's no ideal right now, and no getting back to what we had with CRTs any time soon.
Though people complained that CRTs were dim after comparing them to LCDs, for what they were actually achieving, they were very bright.
An LCD or OLED using BFI to achieve the same image persistence is significantly dimmer than the CRT.

You can output less light without reducing brightness.
You choose brightness or you choose motion clarity: those are your choices.
The one thing is that with emissive displays, they could be driven harder at lower persistence.
It depends on many different factors, but you could potentially drive a display at twice the brightness for half the time to achieve the same perceived brightness overall. Of course that may not be possible, as there will be a limit to how bright they can be driven before damage occurs.
 
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Reektan

Member
Oct 30, 2017
284
Applied the euro update on my C9. Turned the power off at the wall for 20 mins and did DDU safe mode then reinstalled nvidias. Overscan issue is certainly resolved but with Gsync at 120hz I get black cut outs - I have an alternate cable arriving later which a few have confirmed works on here, as its possible this one I got on Amazon a while back isnt so hot.
 

2Blackcats

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,051
How come with ota updates there's none of this turn it off for 20 minutes and disconnecting cables craic?

What's actually happening that that needs to be done?
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,678
Persistence affects how much motion blur we see. It also has an impact on how smooth the image appears.
Lower image persistence does make motion smoother, but it's not directly equivalent to a higher frame rate - so 120 FPS should still appear smoother than 60 FPS + BFI. That being said: I have not done a side-by-side test of that exact scenario.

Whether you achieve the 8.33ms image persistence via 60 FPS + BFI, or 120 FPS without BFI, you should see a similar amount of motion blur.
The CX with its 4.17ms persistence at 60 FPS + BFI (High) would have less motion blur than the C9 at 120 FPS without BFI (8.33ms), but is probably not as smooth.

The advantage of BFI is that it decouples image persistence from frame rate.
A 60 FPS source could have a persistence of 12.5ms, 8.33ms, 4.17ms, 2.08ms, 1.04ms etc. rather than being locked to 16.67ms.

The downside is that as you reduce persistence with BFI, the image gets dimmer, and it flickers more.
It also requires that you never drop frames, as stuttering becomes more noticeable when it's in use.
So 120 FPS without BFI -particularly with VRR- is still going to be preferable to 60 FPS with it, even if they have the same persistence.

But that only scales so far. 120 FPS is achievable today - though typically in older games or at lower resolutions.
To reduce persistence further with higher frame rates starts to be unrealistic - especially if you were to try and match a CRT which has less than 1ms of persistence. 1000 FPS at 1000Hz is not going to happen any time soon.

There's no ideal right now, and no getting back to what we had with CRTs any time soon.
Though people complained that CRTs were dim after comparing them to LCDs, for what they were actually achieving, they were very bright.
An LCD or OLED using BFI to achieve the same image persistence is significantly dimmer than the CRT.


The one thing is that with emissive displays, they could be driven harder at lower persistence.
It depends on many different factors, but you could potentially drive a display at twice the brightness for half the time to achieve the same perceived brightness overall. Of course that may not be possible, as there will be a limit to how bright they can be driven before damage occurs.

They can barely increase overall brightness by 1/2 a stop, they aren't going to double it.

The sets are already being pushed harder than they are comfortable with.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,678
I know this is going a bit sideway on the topic a little, but is there any reason to have OLED motion not on for movies/tv/sports besides loss of brightness?

I'm not sure if it has been fixed on the CX, but the built in luts don't account for BFI, so the blacks were crushed more than it should be
 

Reektan

Member
Oct 30, 2017
284
I pulled the hdmi cable out then put it back in and have 120hz 4k gsync on my 3080 and C9 working good now. Likely don't need the cable arriving later!
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,989
They can barely increase overall brightness by 1/2 a stop, they aren't going to double it.
The sets are already being pushed harder than they are comfortable with.
That was just an example really. My point is that you can drive them harder when they are not having to sustain that brightness 100% of the time.
But you're right that there's probably not much headroom to do that in current OLED panel designs.
 

Spikematic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,357
I have my CX 65" and am super happy with it. Now the hard part: I need an HDMI 2.1 cable that is at least 15 feet long and works with my RTX 3080. The Zeskit cable (that people here seem to be recommending) is only available in the shorter version on Amazon.ca. Anyone else any cable recommendations?
 

zerocalories

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,231
California
I've been gone for a while

Is there a newer hotfix for the watch dogs driver? anything newer than 457.09?

For USA c9, are we still doing manual usb uprade for 05.00.03? Or is there something newer?