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Vern

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,097
This is dangerously close to "stealing our women" rhetoric. You are portraying women as a passive entity in the dating transaction.

Also it generalizes all asian women as inferior imo. Yes there is a power imbalance in many cases when dating in SE Asia, but dating in Japan, China, Taiwan, Korea, etc, developed economies essentially, a lot of women are much more successful and more independent than their foreign teacher boyfriend. The woman definitely doesn't need the white man, perhaps she chose him because she liked him? Shocking I know.
 
Mar 7, 2020
2,947
USA
so for other examples of people being Franks. ex. When the pandemic started, and Asian eras are using their home countries as examples of how face mask is effective, you have a lot of people down playing their experience, and citing bad studies to "prove" that wearing masks don't work in preventing COVID-19. or they derail into "WHAT ABOUT SWEDEN!!!" to justify why Asian expereience in dealing with pandemics of the past(SARS, Swine flu) are not relevant in the current pandemic.
 

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
Something I wonder is if the "Asian Girlfriend/Wife" in these couples do the same thing but for white people. Like do they go around telling white people their meatloaf recipe is wrong because "my husband is white" lol?
kek

Well, my friend is white, and he said

Same here. I don't read hangouts.

But basic anti-Asian talk happened all the time here and at the old place. China this/that, emasculate this/that; the supposed woke and left do it too. Common shit.

Something something intersectionality.
TBH I really think it's better here, be it better hidden, or not as blatant. Old place was particularly egregious.

so for other examples of people being Franks. ex. When the pandemic started, and Asian eras are using their home countries as examples of how face mask is effective, you have a lot of people down playing their experience, and citing bad studies to "prove" that wearing masks don't work in preventing COVID-19. or they derail into "WHAT ABOUT SWEDEN!!!" to justify why Asian expereience in dealing with pandemics of the past(SARS, Swine flu) are not relevant in the current pandemic.
50% is better than 0%!
 

taro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
622
That was a great takedown of Frank. And the Time article was a superb read.

Fuck Frank.
 

Rice Eater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,814
WHITE GUY DECIMATES SUR LA TABLE BY SPEAKING PERFECT FRENCH

This didn't cross my mind until just now. But man I use to get some fun reactions from non Asians when I FLOORED THEM WITH MY PERFECT AMERICAN ENGLISH. Mind you this was back in the 90's and early 2000's before the internet became what it is today and a much larger percentage of the population were ignorant about things like Asians being able to speak good English lol.

For a short time I remember feeling offended but then I started loving reactions like this because it allowed me to bullshit with whoever the person was. I remember telling this older lady who was a waitress at Waffle House that my cousins and I just moved to the country 5 years ago but we worked hard to pick up the language and now we sound just like a typical American lol.

Honestly I don't think these people meant anything bad by it. People just were really that ignorant about stuff like that back then. Then the internet happened and people became less ignorant and I never get those questions anymore. I gotta admit, I legit miss them.
 

wandering

flâneur
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
Also it generalizes all asian women as inferior imo. Yes there is a power imbalance in many cases when dating in SE Asia, but dating in Japan, China, Taiwan, Korea, etc, developed economies essentially, a lot of women are much more successful and more independent than their foreign teacher boyfriend. The woman definitely doesn't need the white man, perhaps she chose him because she liked him? Shocking I know.

Lol gotta love the standard white dude approach of playing the victim while not so subtly trying to push the narrative that white men are simply more attractive.

You know well enough as I that discussing the effects of colonialism doesn't preclude the notion of Asian women having agency. In fact, the discourse engages directly with the idea: a worldwide hegemony that privileges a particular politics of race and sexuality. A hegemony that puts white men on the pedestal. Pointing that out is not depriving Asian women of their agency or calling them inferior, despite your attempts to twist it.

You'd rather not interrogate it because, as is so often the case, you'd rather enjoy the "easy" life of a white dude in Asia without having to trouble yourself with the wider ramifications and ugly racial contexts.

But you're not so bold as to outright say that white men are sexually superior like they do on CCJ2, so you frame it as feminism.

And as a bonus, you get to frame Asian men as jealous, misogynistic incels! Nice!
 
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Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
CLUELESS WHITE GUY DESTROYS WAITER'S EXPECTATIONS SPEAKS FLAWLESS MADARIN
Those videos are all terrible (outside hao ge, don't @ me), but they reflect the rather sad reality that a lot of people live in Asia and don't even make an attempt to learn the language.

I will say this, they are way more tolerant there to people who don't speak the local language than they are in the US.
 

Cam

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,938
OP, thank you sincerely for this. He articulates and puts into words things I've wanted to scream at people in a more eloquent way. When trying to take the high road and educate dumbfucks in hopes they're being genuine when they say they'll listen, but only put up a front.

While the article about Frank was great, it was the Time article posted that I'm bookmarking since that speaks volumes to me and reflects my goddamn life growing up.
 

spider

CLANG
On Break
Oct 23, 2017
973
Australia
This didn't cross my mind until just now. But man I use to get some fun reactions from non Asians when I FLOORED THEM WITH MY PERFECT AMERICAN ENGLISH. Mind you this was back in the 90's and early 2000's before the internet became what it is today and a much larger percentage of the population were ignorant about things like Asians being able to speak good English lol.

For a short time I remember feeling offended but then I started loving reactions like this because it allowed me to bullshit with whoever the person was. I remember telling this older lady who was a waitress at Waffle House that my cousins and I just moved to the country 5 years ago but we worked hard to pick up the language and now we sound just like a typical American lol.

Honestly I don't think these people meant anything bad by it. People just were really that ignorant about stuff like that back then. Then the internet happened and people became less ignorant and I never get those questions anymore. I gotta admit, I legit miss them.

i had the same reception in straya, coming over when i was in my teen and having to assimilate to the australian high school life really pushed my english acclimatization swiftswift but i didn't... like, it's like when they praised me for my english it was always with a hint of as if other asians couldnt measure up like i could so i never miss this reaction, personally

cuz i thought like maybe other asian immigrants didn't come over with as much privilege that i did, like the so-called 'boat people' that come over from poor neighbouring asian countries... they probly didn't have the luxury of being enrolled in australian high school, and stuff like that

but fwiw, kudos to you and your sister for picking up the language so fast! :D

(for me, i still can't quite acquire the strayan accent > __ <)
 

Rice Eater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,814
i had the same reception in straya, coming over when i was in my teen and having to assimilate to the australian high school life really pushed my english acclimatization swiftswift but i didn't... like, it's like when they praised me for my english it was always with a hint of as if other asians couldnt measure up like i could so i never miss this reaction, personally

cuz i thought like maybe other asian immigrants didn't come over with as much privilege that i did, like the so-called 'boat people' that come over from poor neighbouring asian countries... they probly didn't have the luxury of being enrolled in australian high school, and stuff like that

but fwiw, kudos to you and your sister for picking up the language so fast! :D

(for me, i still can't quite acquire the strayan accent > __ <)

We already talked on Discord but I just want to point this out in case anyone else misunderstood. I would joke to people like the waitress about how I moved to the country recently and learned English with a American accent in a very short time. The truth is that I was born and raised in America and learned it naturally like anyone else born in the US. And that's the thing, a lot of people back then didn't consider that and thought I had recently immigrated to the country based just because I'm Asian.
 

Illuvatar

Member
Jan 22, 2019
341
Why is it so hard for Franks to realize it littered does not concern them? Unless you got the blood in your veins it's not your place!

Not trying to be contrarian or anything, but this also doesn't seem like the right attitude to me... Like, what does the blood in your veins have to do with anything? Using terms like that, wouldn't that exclude the author from being a 'real' American as well?
It does rais the question of 'why' we are mad at Frank. I don't think the point should be that 'Frank, isn't Vietnamese, so he should keep his mouth shut' but rather that we shouldn't try to determine for others, what it means tot be part of a community / ethnicity. And let people decide that for themselves.
I have a friend who is half Japanese / half British, grew up in England and now moved back to Japan, but barely knows anything about the country and I know someone who's parents are both American but she has only ever lived in Japan. Both carry that as a part of their identity, and no one should be trying to determine who is the 'real' one, because how you identify with your heritage, is also more then just the colour of your skin or where your parents came from.
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,003
Not trying to be contrarian or anything, but this also doesn't seem like the right attitude to me... Like, what does the blood in your veins have to do with anything? Using terms like that, wouldn't that exclude the author from being a 'real' American as well?
Well, it wouldn't. America is a land of immigrants.
 

Vern

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,097
Lol gotta love the standard white dude approach of playing the victim while not so subtly trying to push the narrative that white men are simply more attractive.

You know well enough as I that discussing the effects of colonialism doesn't preclude the notion of Asian women having agency. In fact, the discourse engages directly with the idea: a worldwide hegemony that privileges a particular politics of race and sexuality. A hegemony that puts white men on the pedestal. Pointing that out is not depriving Asian women of their agency or calling them inferior, despite your attempts to twist it.

You'd rather not interrogate it because, as is so often the case, you'd rather enjoy the "easy" life of a white dude in Asia without having to trouble yourself with the wider ramifications and ugly racial contexts.

But you're not so bold as to outright say that white men are sexually superior like they do on CCJ2, so you frame it as feminism.

And as a bonus, you get to frame Asian men as jealous, misogynistic incels! Nice!

Not really. Lots of asian women also choose asian men. I was simply saying "asian women" is quite broad. They aren't "all inferior" or whatever that post was implying. Sorry if you took it that way.

edit: also you seemed to miss when I shit on the "loser" white man teacher type in asia? and seem to be projecting some shit that I didn't even say. Honestly come on man, nothing in my post implied anything about incels or misogyny.
 
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Rice Eater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,814
edit: also you seemed to miss when I shit on the "loser" white man teacher type in asia? and seem to be projecting some shit that I didn't even say. Honestly come on man, nothing in my post implied anything about incels or misogyny.

You shit on the loser white teacher by mentioning how they were able to hook up with a woman who may be very successful and independent. Sounds like great deal in my book LOL.

But anyways I looked back to see exactly what lead up to this. Those other guys are not trying to tell women who to date or claim them, the focus is on a specific problem involving specific type of guys. I do think some of the other guys are being too broad and too hostile in responding to you guys. But what you and the other guy said does sound dismissive as well.

We're not trying to put every WMAF couple in that category. We're discussing the long history that lead to current power dynamics the specific guys who are exploiting it and being assholes.
 
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Vern

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,097
You shit on the loser white teacher by mentioning how they were able to hook up with a woman who may be very successful and independent. Sounds like great deal in my book LOL.

But anyways I looked back to see exactly what lead up to this. Those other guys are not trying to tell women who to date or claim them, the focus is on a specific problem involving specific type of guys. I do think some of the other guys are being too broad and too hostile in responding to you guys. But what you and the other guy said does sound dismissive as well.

We're not trying to put every WMAF couple in that category. We're discussing the long history that lead to current power dynamics the specific guys who are exploiting it and using it to their advantage.

All I was trying to say was that ethnicity isn't the be all end all when it comes to power dynamics. Yes white privilege does exist, yes when a person like Big Ed goes to the Philippines and thinks he's god's gift to women, and thinks he deserves Rose, there is a really shitty power dynamic at play. But White male, Asian female shouldn't imply some power dynamic that is white superior, Asian inferior at all times. Again, if I wasn't clear, I apologize. There are many different types of people in this world. "Asian woman" is so broad of a category it's ridiculous imo to imply that they are all or even mostly the same, and that's at least how a number of posters took that post.

But this thread isn't about me or what I think, so I'll go back to the sidelines unless I get dragged back in. I was happy listening, learning, and understanding more, that post I and others commented on seemed a bit over the line so I put in my two cents, whether they are worth that much or not. I'll go back to observing and trying to be better.
 

spider

CLANG
On Break
Oct 23, 2017
973
Australia
We already talked on Discord but I just want to point this out in case anyone else misunderstood. I would joke to people like the waitress about how I moved to the country recently and learned English with a American accent in a very short time. The truth is that I was born and raised in America and learned it naturally like anyone else born in the US. And that's the thing, a lot of people back then didn't consider that and thought I had recently immigrated to the country based just because I'm Asian.

yesssssssh sorry, i am oft to miss a lot of stuff still like.... i thought ricey was seriously explaining to the waitress that it only took him and sis five years and as you can see obvi things flies over my head like whooosh

thank you for clarifying, ricey <3
 

nopressure

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,414
Not much to add other than I agree: Fuck Frank. So many people online give the same aura (though not as blatant or offensively as Frank here).

I'm British Indian and it's maddening when my experiences get ignored over white people's because they have an Asian partner or travelled to/lived in India for a bit. Their experiences are always going to be superficial compared to mine and it feeds this societal idea that denies me my identity as a British and Indian person. I ignore topics where this comes up, because it's so tiring.

We already talked on Discord but I just want to point this out in case anyone else misunderstood. I would joke to people like the waitress about how I moved to the country recently and learned English with a American accent in a very short time. The truth is that I was born and raised in America and learned it naturally like anyone else born in the US. And that's the thing, a lot of people back then didn't consider that and thought I had recently immigrated to the country based just because I'm Asian.

This reminds me of a holiday in San Francisco. People in every shop lost their mind an Indian person could have a British accent. A Starbucks guy even called his coworkers down and asked me to repeat my order lol (I didn't find it offensive, just funny).
 
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Untogether

Member
Oct 29, 2017
350
"Expats" are racist immigrants

Change my mind

I know this has been addressed a few times in this thread, with some saying 'not all'...

I think it's about those that choose the word for themselves, that choose the definition of expat over immigrant. I've lived in West Africa, I've lived in South East Asia and I'm currently living in mainland Europe, and in all of those places the main groups of immigrants, both online and other, describe themselves as 'Expats'. The simple truth is, that in western media, the word 'immigrant' is loaded with negative connotations. The majority of 'Expats' in the places where I have lived have been white and western, and so to them 'Expat' is a far more acceptable term. In Bangkok, the TEFL guy from Buttfuck, Arizona is an Expat. The surgeon from Myanmar working in a Bangkok hospital, an immigrant.

I'll go you one further. Everywhere I've lived outside of my home country I've done so because of work. I've moved there because there was a job that I could do. Does that automatically make me an expat? An immigrant? No, it makes me an economic migrant. For many, the earning potential and standard of living is higher in those countries than they could get at home. The very definition of an economic migrant. You try telling an self proclaimed expat that they are, in fact, an economic migrant and see how far you get.

Words have power, especially in those you use to define yourself, and there's definitely something very uncomfortable to me about 'expat'. What is that makes you different from immigrants, or economic migrants, that you need another term tailored for your experience?
 

Karateka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,940
For some reason expected this t9 be a takedown of frank from everybody loves raymond

Result is better I guess
 

Deleted member 46493

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 7, 2018
5,231
I have/had expat friends in places like Thailand and Indonesia. I'm not sure if racist is the correct word to describe them.
They all have yellow fever
I know I am very late but yellow fever is very racist, especially when it's "strong" enough (lol) to make someone move to SE Asia. Plain and simple, the kind of guys with yellow fever that go to Asia for dating or marriage are racist. They have a set idea of what dating an Asian woman as a white man is like and exploit that.

And yeah, put me into the "any white male ages 25+ who goes to Asian as an expat raises an eyebrow" camp.
 

Vern

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,097
And yeah, put me into the "any white male ages 25+ who goes to Asian as an expat raises an eyebrow" camp.

So people with no professional experience (25 and under) are better suited to jobs in Asia why?

Im a white dude obviously, after university i went to Australia to work for 3 years, moved home to the USA a couple years, then took a job At 27 in China and now have been out here for 8 years. What eyebrow is raised by my career choices? I'm not trying to play the victim or derail the thread once again, just this doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Why should white people not accept jobs in Asia past the age of 25?
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I know I am very late but yellow fever is very racist, especially when it's "strong" enough (lol) to make someone move to SE Asia. Plain and simple, the kind of guys with yellow fever that go to Asia for dating or marriage are racist. They have a set idea of what dating an Asian woman as a white man is like and exploit that.

And yeah, put me into the "any white male ages 25+ who goes to Asian as an expat raises an eyebrow" camp.
I got to Asia by working for an American company that had an office in Beijing. I took the job mostly because it was a promotion, I thought I was going to do it for 6 months but I ended up liking it more than I expected. I was way older than 25.
A lot of people get to Asia like this, I don't have stats, but you have journalists, engineers, architects, chefs, you name it. People just find themselves in other countries for many reasons.

How familiar are you really with those communities?

Asia is not a single thing, there is a pretty big differences between expat communities in Singapore and Bangkok.

p.s.
It might blow your mind, there are also women who go Asia.
 

Septimus Prime

EA
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
The fact that Anglo-Saxons refer to themselves differently than how they refer to other ethnicities. More often than not, they enjoy being of a higher social status, strongly more accepted as "whites", and rarely commit to integrate; therefore they aren't "immigrants".
Expat is based on the relative location, whether you are coming or going. So around English speaking Americans, Americans and former Americans who went on to live in other countries are expats. People who are coming in are immigrants. For third parties we usually use immigrant as well.
I think the thing is that--while there are actual definitions that make "expat" and "immigrant" different--in colloquial usage, "expat" means white immigrant.

And like the first quote says, I strongly believe that they use it because they don't want to be considered immigrants because they're white and above it.

So people with no professional experience (25 and under) are better suited to jobs in Asia why?

Im a white dude obviously, after university i went to Australia to work for 3 years, moved home to the USA a couple years, then took a job At 27 in China and now have been out here for 8 years. What eyebrow is raised by my career choices? I'm not trying to play the victim or derail the thread once again, just this doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Why should white people not accept jobs in Asia past the age of 25?
I don't really understand where you're going with this. What makes them better suited to jobs in Asia instead of their home countries?
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,233
I think the thing is that--while there are actual definitions that make "expat" and "immigrant" different--in colloquial usage, "expat" means white immigrant.

And like the first quote says, I strongly believe that they use it because they don't want to be considered immigrants because they're white and above it.


I don't really understand where you're going with this. What makes them better suited to jobs in Asia instead of their home countries?
So people should only accept jobs in their home countries? That's dumb. This is coming from a Puerto Rican who moved from his home country for a job in the US.
 

roflwaffles

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,138
Asian-American here. Recent poster in these forums. Feels like I missed some major event here regarding Asian Americans.......
Personally for me, the relatively low level of attention given to topics about Asian-American xenophobia from COVID unless it involves Trump turned me off from using ERA as a a place to discuss our issues.

If a family getting stabbed or a woman getting acid thrown in her face while taking out the trash doesn't generate more than a page or two of conversation or outrage, then I feel other platforms are better suited for discussing these issues.
 
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99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
I know I am very late but yellow fever is very racist, especially when it's "strong" enough (lol) to make someone move to SE Asia. Plain and simple, the kind of guys with yellow fever that go to Asia for dating or marriage are racist. They have a set idea of what dating an Asian woman as a white man is like and exploit that.

And yeah, put me into the "any white male ages 25+ who goes to Asian as an expat raises an eyebrow" camp.

That was poor wording on my part, I addressed this in another post and explained that I shouldn't have used the term yellow fever. I used that term because I tease them about it whenever I see them and it slipped out on my end.

They moved to Asia due to work, but then decided to stay afterwards because they liked the work/lifestyle/got married/etc.

On a similar topic, how do you feel if an Asian expat decided to move to Asia to get with or marry an Asian person? Would that have any racial connectations? I've been wondering about this for the last couple of days since I also know Asian friends that relocated to Bangkok for similar reasons. But, bear in mind they visited, met someone, and decided to uproot their life to move over there. Things didn't work out between them, but decided to stay afterwards, rinse and repeat. This is a common story for multiple people I am familiar with.
 

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
Eh personally, I do believe people travels to other countries, fall in love with the country (people, food, culture), and stay there.

I think part of the negative reaction is because we see a lot of weebs that think Japan is just like their animes, and wanna move there. However, their "animes" can get a little gross... fan service, underage chicks, weird male fantasy tropes. Makes you wonder what they think "Japan" is.

I mean, it's also a trope that an immigrant comes to America because they grew up watching Hollywood movies (Westerns) and fell in love with the US. Usually, of course, they actually come here and become disillusioned, but that's another topic. (Also, in reality, a lot of immigrants come here for education and better opportunities due to the systematic poverty or discrimination faced in their home country. That's not a thing that happens to white people in the US. A hardworking, smart white person who is capable of getting into a good PhD/professional program in, say, China, isn't going to be stuck in poverty if they stayed in the US because the US isn't a poor country where no one can do well.)

The thing with being a white dude in Asia is... unfortunately, the stigma is "sexpat." Also, I wonder if it's because Asian countries are never portrayed in a positive light in Western media. The only "positive" thing usually tends to be the women. It makes people wonder... when someone goes to Asia, why are they going? When they fell in love with the Asian country they're in, what is it that they fell in love with? A lot of times, people suspect it has to do with a penis.

This is a clumsy explanation and I'll probably come back later and try to edit it to make it more clear.
 

Vern

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,097
I think the thing is that--while there are actual definitions that make "expat" and "immigrant" different--in colloquial usage, "expat" means white immigrant.

And like the first quote says, I strongly believe that they use it because they don't want to be considered immigrants because they're white and above it.


I don't really understand where you're going with this. What makes them better suited to jobs in Asia instead of their home countries?

I'm not going anywhere with it. Wondering why an inexperienced 23 year old "expat" is ok, but for some reason an experienced worker taking a job abroad is suspicious. Dudes post made no sense unless I'm reading it wrong.
 

nopressure

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,414
I'm not going anywhere with it. Wondering why an inexperienced 23 year old "expat" is ok, but for some reason an experienced worker taking a job abroad is suspicious. Dudes post made no sense unless I'm reading it wrong.

I may be wrong, but I think the primary issue they are referring to is the term "expat" rather than age. If a white person demands to be referred to as "expat" over "immigrant", it's a little suspect; the connotation is they are special and should be treated better. Older people are more likely to use the term.
 

ScoobsJoestar

Member
May 30, 2019
4,071
Why is it so hard for Franks to realize it littered does not concern them? Unless you got the blood in your veins it's not your place!

...Man, I've heard that exact same line from racist people telling me I'll never actually be Canadian no matter how I grew up here. Like I don't mean to be confrontational here, but maybe don't use this exact line in the future?

Like I understand the thought of "Hey, don't try to tell someone from the country you immigrated to about their own culture in a condescending tone because what the fuck you weirdo" but "Unless you got the blood in your veins it's not your place!" is literally the kind of shit immigrants are bullied with here, usually a step before "Go back to your country!"

Like, Frank is an idiot. But can we like, not?
 

Septimus Prime

EA
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
I'm not going anywhere with it. Wondering why an inexperienced 23 year old "expat" is ok, but for some reason an experienced worker taking a job abroad is suspicious. Dudes post made no sense unless I'm reading it wrong.
Yeah, I don't agree with that poster, so I won't answer for him. I suspect it will hew closely to what Pet just posted above though.

Anyway, I reread your post, and I think I misunderstood it, so sorry about that.
 

Vern

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,097
I may be wrong, but I think the primary issue they are referring to is the term "expat" rather than age. If a white person demands to be referred to as "expat" over "immigrant", it's a little suspect; the connotation is they are special and should be treated better. Older people are more likely to use the term.

Immigrant is generally a permanent migrant, expat tends to be someone who is gonna return to their home country yea? I live in China but I didn't immigrate to China, I still have my American passport, so how can I be an immigrant? They are different things.

Is there a better alternative to expat that's in common usage? Migrant worker? That has different connotations and is a also loaded word unfortunately. For what it's worth I don't refer to myself as an expat.

Edit: Septimus Prime its all good, no worries.
 

Pet Rock

Member
Mar 14, 2018
392
...Man, I've heard that exact same line from racist people telling me I'll never actually be Canadian no matter how I grew up here. Like I don't mean to be confrontational here, but maybe don't use this exact line in the future?

Like I understand the thought of "Hey, don't try to tell someone from the country you immigrated to about their own culture in a condescending tone because what the fuck you weirdo" but "Unless you got the blood in your veins it's not your place!" is literally the kind of shit immigrants are bullied with here, usually a step before "Go back to your country!"

Like, Frank is an idiot. But can we like, not?

Well, I think punching direction matters. If someone is coming from a peoples with a history of imperialism/colonizing to the other side, getting punched from below is more fair
 
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nopressure

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,414
Immigrant is generally a permanent migrant, expat tends to be someone who is gonna return to their home country yea? I live in China but I didn't immigrate to China, I still have my American passport, so how can I be an immigrant? They are different things.

Is there a better alternative to expat that's in common usage? Migrant worker? That has different connotations and is a also loaded word unfortunately. For what it's worth I don't refer to myself as an expat.

Exactly. Migrant or economic migrant are the correct terms. The sterotype is old white people don't like these (factually correct) words because they feel above them.

Also, at least in UK, nobody I know uses "expat" in that way. It has nothing to do with plans on returning to native country.
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
Exactly. Migrant or economic migrant are the correct terms. The sterotype is old white people don't like these (factually correct) words because they feel above them.

Also, at least in UK, nobody I know uses "expat" in that way. It has nothing to do with plans on returning to native country.
Yeah, this is right. A lot of people come to the UK to work, sometimes temporarily. I've never heard the term expat being used here, however... which does make it suspect to me. I have indeed only heard it being used for westerners, particularly white westerners, working in Asian or Middle Eastern countries.
 

JCLShay

Member
Apr 4, 2020
310
Like I understand the thought of "Hey, don't try to tell someone from the country you immigrated to about their own culture in a condescending tone because what the fuck you weirdo" but "Unless you got the blood in your veins it's not your place!" is literally the kind of shit immigrants are bullied with here, usually a step before "Go back to your country!"

There's a few stark difference here I think that's worth noting when looking at it through the lens of the United States. One is with the onset of Fordism, it forged the modern "American Dream" and fostered an environment that encouraged immigration to the U.S. to help the work force.

America's identity, should be multiracial. Its ideologies during this time beckoned for it. But, this identity was forged as "white." The Euro-migrants were more willingly adopted as new Americans than your African and Asian people, since the VISUALS of Euro immigrants resembled the people who made the rules (however, this is not to say Euro migrants did not have their own intense struggles). Labor was exploited and contributions by these minority groups were "erased" from history.

Then you have the element of white plight, manifest destiny, and imperialism. Historically, anglo-saxons has viewed all races that were different as less civilized, barbaric, and of no-value. Their immigration to other countries was typically for the purpose of whitewashing. These connotations aren't that far removed from our current world. I mean, these ideas are two or three generations removed. So this template is exists in modern day, whether the person knows it or not.

So when it comes to this Frank trying to tell a Vietnamese person about their own culture, even with just twelve years of residence, in what world does he have the right or the proper perspective to do this? Does it not also reflect this white-privilege of going to differing cultures and feeling like they've conquered its history and people that they're in a position to speak on their behalf? No less to a person who's origin is from that country?

If someone has studied racism against African Americans for thirty years of their career, does that somehow buy them a metaphorical membership to be able to truly speak of the plight and psyche of the modern day Black person?

I get the point you're trying to make, though. But it's also trying to level the playing field across the board by saying the bar set applies to everyone, when unfortunately, with the way history has unfolded, we aren't afforded that luxury when these kind of issues come up.
 
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Pet Rock

Member
Mar 14, 2018
392
Oh hey, I found a quite informative article presumably written by a quite articulate expat that expounds on some of the expat talking points mentioned so far, right down to the one of "Asian women have agency here too, c'mon". Y'all shoulda just shared this right off the bat so there wouldn't be so much misunderstanding.



Well, I think punching direction matters. If someone is coming from a peoples with a history of imperialism/colonizing to the other side, getting punched from below is more fair


And I feel like there might be some punching up going on from Asians in this thread, but the OP was basically just self defense, and I don't think it necessitated those who might've felt those self-defensive blows coming right back with more punches of their own, otherwise they are gonna keep getting blows back.

Basically I feel like maybe some of those people shoulda took a step back after reading the takedown, let it digest, do some self-reflecting, chill, and probably just shut up, rather than come right out and express their confusion and give us work with their questions asking to clarify.

Sure some of us went ahead and tried to clarify or answer to the best of their ability anyway, but I don't know if it was worth doing so, for posts I really am not sure were made in good faith; the ever-unrolling follow up questions reveals to me an attitude that seems more defensive than open to learning.

Being defensive in that case is being offensive to me. Nguyen wrote a lot, and there's more of his writing linked to from there and elsewhere in the thread. That is likely more than enough for folks to take in first that their questions can wait before they've checked if it isn't already answered by the thousands and thousands of words already written by someone from the Asian diaspora. And that's just one individual among us who've already done the work.

I don't think it's necessary or fair to ask more of us to add yet even more work for what I see is the benefit of keeping the questioners from really doing their own.
 
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Pet Rock

Member
Mar 14, 2018
392
Ethnic Studies takes work so universities charge tuition for it. But maybe try there for the answers you seek?
 
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Vern

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,097
Exactly. Migrant or economic migrant are the correct terms. The sterotype is old white people don't like these (factually correct) words because they feel above them.

Some or even most probably feel above the terms, but it also doesn't really make sense to refer to yourself as a migrant worker when the vast majority of people would take it to mean you are working on a farm or as a housekeeper or whatever. For better or (mostly) worse, people choose the path of least resistance.
 

RROCKMAN

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,810
Not trying to be contrarian or anything, but this also doesn't seem like the right attitude to me... Like, what does the blood in your veins have to do with anything? Using terms like that, wouldn't that exclude the author from being a 'real' American as well?
It does rais the question of 'why' we are mad at Frank. I don't think the point should be that 'Frank, isn't Vietnamese, so he should keep his mouth shut' but rather that we shouldn't try to determine for others, what it means tot be part of a community / ethnicity. And let people decide that for themselves.
I have a friend who is half Japanese / half British, grew up in England and now moved back to Japan, but barely knows anything about the country and I know someone who's parents are both American but she has only ever lived in Japan. Both carry that as a part of their identity, and no one should be trying to determine who is the 'real' one, because how you identify with your heritage, is also more then just the colour of your skin or where your parents came from.


Think we are getting away from the conversation here

First and foremost the whole point of being an American "is to be an immigrant from a different county that wants to come to America for any reason, though chief of those is better opportunities, to chase the mythical American Dream."

I say this in air quotes because the current administration is trying their damndest to make the above not true (unless you are white that is), but that is the proper definition of an American.

As such there is NO one American blood(except for the people we stole the land from in the first place but this is a digression) . This would be like asking what the original flavor of Dr. Pepper is. It supposed to be a mish mash of cultures and ideas. In the first place.

Frank here thought he could educate this Vietnamese person on his heritage thinking he was qualified to talk about their issues because he loved in Vietnam for a bit and has a Vietnamese wife.

I don't really care how long he was in Vietnam because it's not the same as actually being apart of that race and experiencing its ups and down for himself (hence my the in blood statement).

If he really gave a shit about actually educating writer man about his heritage (which isn't up to him to decide seeing as he never grew or has personal experience being Vietnamese) then he could have introduced his wife to the writer and let her do the talking. Then maybe everyone could have learned something and Frank wouldn't have made an ass of himself.

But Frank didn't care about the culture in the first place! Frank wanted to get his rocks off by demonstrating his "superior knowledge" for Vietnam to a Vietnamese person! And then when he thought that writer man's knowledge was insufficient (it's not) he came to the false conclusion that He isn't a very good Vietnamese person.

This is why we are mad at Frank.

the last two paragraphs are Frank completely overstepping his bounds and why I mentioned the blood in the post. He shouldn't be trying to do any of this because it's literally not his issue.

I do see the point that my initial post was rather I'll thought out especially compared to this one, so I'll revise it.


...Man, I've heard that exact same line from racist people telling me I'll never actually be Canadian no matter how I grew up here. Like I don't mean to be confrontational here, but maybe don't use this exact line in the future?

Like I understand the thought of "Hey, don't try to tell someone from the country you immigrated to about their own culture in a condescending tone because what the fuck you weirdo" but "Unless you got the blood in your veins it's not your place!" is literally the kind of shit immigrants are bullied with here, usually a step before "Go back to your country!"

Like, Frank is an idiot. But can we like, not?

Ok, I can see how my wording maybe problematic but let me point out something

Those Canadians are high tier dumbasses because Being Canadian is an nationality, NOT a race. So long as your papers are good that's it. They might claim you won't fit in, They might even hate looking at you (some of my experiences there) but that wouldn't make you any less Canadian.

It's very different to say someone doesn't belong to a nation (this is a legal term) than to say someone doesn't belong to a race.

The whole reasoning behind my initial post is that Frank was too busy thinking about showing off than to actually think about weither or not he should even be having this conversation. The race would speak on its own issues for themselves, similar to Right now, people who are Caucasian that actually gave a shit were standing aside and letting us speak for ourselves. Rather than trying to lord over people.

I wanted to express that if Frank gave a shit he would have let Vietnamese people express themselves instead of trying to teach them about their own culture

But I'm no Frank. I get what you guys are laying down. I'll scrub the original post and you guys can leave the quotes unaltered.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,321
Expat is a term I've heard used quite a bit to describe highly paid Japanese people who are in the US for a set period of time. In my case they're from Japan and are put up in a house by their employers with a clear end date of their stay determined. In some cases that end date is pushed back, but that setup of "I'm here for a 2 year stay and am given housing by my employer" is a fairly obviously different situation from someone immigrating to the US, which implies that they're doing so on their own and that it's a permanent transition rather than a temporary one.