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Sayre

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
728
Yeah same. I don't post a lot in the Asian community threads so it feels like I missed something.
It's a bunch of little things but I think it boiled over with the pandemic. Lots of threads here on era when talking about China seemed to have a smidgen of xenophobia. Hard to tell just at a glance, but as an Asian American it's very apparent. And this is from a progressive site like Era so imagine how topics like this would be discussed elsewhere. Coupled that with increase violence against Asians due to the virus despite the fact that the victims are not Chinese just further shows that all Asians are "Chinese" when it's convenient.

Some of us have used this as an opportunity to educate and push back on the preconceptions and how dangerous some of the language used can be.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,789
There's a much broader cross-cutting issue of people who do not conform to expectation. Orientalism would make you mistake it for something that affects Asians but basically if your country of origin/skin+hair+eye color/language/religion/ethnicity/cultural practice don't fall into an established bucket people get really fucking weird around you and you yourself may question your own authenticity because that's what everyone expects.
 

TickleMeElbow

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,668
Ha, that'd be hilarious. But of course not if they're international couples. Only way I could see this happen is they're both American and the wife/gf is very whitewashed. Of course the white people in that case would be offended -.-

My mom's Japanese and my dad's white American, and she'd never do that because she knows damn well all her "American" recipes are her own random interpretations lol.

Luckily my dad's not a Frank since he's a scholar, so he only speaks on what he knows which is history, literature, and language.
 

Miletius

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,257
Berkeley, CA
There's a much broader cross-cutting issue of people who do not conform to expectation. Orientalism would make you mistake it for something that affects Asians but basically if your country of origin/skin+hair+eye color/language/religion/ethnicity/cultural practice don't fall into an established bucket people get really fucking weird around you and you yourself may question your own authenticity because that's what everyone expects.

The authenticity question is interesting to me and one that this topic hasn't focused on as much so far. Expats like Frank claim that they have cultural understanding of both their host country and their roots (American) because of their life experiences, while somebody like Viet has neither. They are too foreign to be American, but they haven't experienced authentic culture enough to be Vietnamese.

To stimulate discussion, try flipping it on it's head. Say you're a white guy living in Japan. You've stayed for 10, 20, 30 years. Are you Japanese at that point? Most Japanese people (who can be quite racist, mind you) would probably say no. Are your children? Harder to say, but I have to admit probably not.

To some extent first-generation immigrants understand that they are permanent cultural outsiders. They come to the US for many reasons, opportunity being chief among them but they know that some Americans will never view them as American. Their children, on the other hand, expect more. They've grown up in the US, grown accustomed to the particulars of it, but are still treated like outsiders by people like Frank.

I think applies broadly, outside of Asians. LatinX for example are treated the same way. 1st gens sacrifice to get here, 2nd gens are still viewed as cultural outsiders. Many of them can't even speak Spanish, or only can speak it informally. Going back to the host country seems impossible in that context, they are outsiders there too.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
Bruv, I've had the brother of the dude who married an Asian woman tell me how cultured he was now. Don't even have to marry an Asian now, they just get one whiff of it and they act like they've traveled from the far, exotic East.

Insane, how can one become a Frank by proxy? I can't even wrap my head around that. I think the guy you know is the equivalent of the "I have a black friend" guy but for Asians.
 

Celestine

Member
Oct 31, 2017
694
Tokyo, Japan
The authenticity question is interesting to me and one that this topic hasn't focused on as much so far. Expats like Frank claim that they have cultural understanding of both their host country and their roots (American) because of their life experiences, while somebody like Viet has neither. They are too foreign to be American, but they haven't experienced authentic culture enough to be Vietnamese.

To stimulate discussion, try flipping it on it's head. Say you're a white guy living in Japan. You've stayed for 10, 20, 30 years. Are you Japanese at that point? Most Japanese people (who can be quite racist, mind you) would probably say no. Are your children? Harder to say, but I have to admit probably not.

To some extent first-generation immigrants understand that they are permanent cultural outsiders. They come to the US for many reasons, opportunity being chief among them but they know that some Americans will never view them as American. Their children, on the other hand, expect more. They've grown up in the US, grown accustomed to the particulars of it, but are still treated like outsiders by people like Frank.

I think applies broadly, outside of Asians. LatinX for example are treated the same way. 1st gens sacrifice to get here, 2nd gens are still viewed as cultural outsiders. Many of them can't even speak Spanish, or only can speak it informally. Going back to the host country seems impossible in that context, they are outsiders there too.

I don't think the problem here is making white people perpetual foreigners. That is a different issue, but nobody is stating that. Hell I mentioned that I'm white but Japanese (am a citizen) and nobody gave me beef. The problem is when white people start trying to tell ethnically Asian people what being Asian is all about when it's not their place. I can tell a Japanese American what I've experienced in Japan and I may be able to tell them some trivia they don't know, but I can't speak to their experience as someone growing up ethnically Asian and personally attached to the experience from a young age. As I said, it's apples and oranges and it would be fucking condescending of me to act like I'm the authority on Asianness to them. Hell my kids are super Japanese even if they look a bit white and I would hope they don't give Asian Americans shit like Frank. It's a different experience and shouldn't be belittled in any way.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
"Expats" are racist immigrants

Change my mind

Nah, expats are just immigrants who have far more agency than most. Getting to chose to leave your country "on your own terms" and have tons of options about where you go is a privege few people get. That doesn't innately make them racist; it might make it a lot easier for them to get away with being racist though.
The authenticity question is interesting to me and one that this topic hasn't focused on as much so far. Expats like Frank claim that they have cultural understanding of both their host country and their roots (American) because of their life experiences, while somebody like Viet has neither. They are too foreign to be American, but they haven't experienced authentic culture enough to be Vietnamese.

To stimulate discussion, try flipping it on it's head. Say you're a white guy living in Japan. You've stayed for 10, 20, 30 years. Are you Japanese at that point? Most Japanese people (who can be quite racist, mind you) would probably say no. Are your children? Harder to say, but I have to admit probably not.

To some extent first-generation immigrants understand that they are permanent cultural outsiders. They come to the US for many reasons, opportunity being chief among them but they know that some Americans will never view them as American. Their children, on the other hand, expect more. They've grown up in the US, grown accustomed to the particulars of it, but are still treated like outsiders by people like Frank.

I think applies broadly, outside of Asians. LatinX for example are treated the same way. 1st gens sacrifice to get here, 2nd gens are still viewed as cultural outsiders. Many of them can't even speak Spanish, or only can speak it informally. Going back to the host country seems impossible in that context, they are outsiders there too.

I think about it in terms of New York City, which has people who fiercely gatekeep who "belongs" and is a "true" New Yorker. For a lot of people, cultural and national identity is built on who you exclude even more than who you welcome. It's kind of sad that Frank has the attitude he has because I imagine a ton of people in the country he lives wouldn't consider him one of them either, but it's dumb to perpetuate that attitude (especially when it comes to America, where the whole idea is we're almost all from someplace else and that's a huge element of the national story.)
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,835
Nah, expats are just immigrants who have far more agency than most. Getting to chose to leave your country "on your own terms" and have tons of options about where you go is a privege few people get. That doesn't innately make them racist; it might make it a lot easier for them to get away with being racist though.
As far as I'm aware, nowhere under the definition of immigrant does it say it has to be out of necessity. Expats are immigrants who feel they are above the label and want a special designation.
 

ActStriker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,545
I don't think the problem here is making white people perpetual foreigners. That is a different issue, but nobody is stating that. Hell I mentioned that I'm white but Japanese (am a citizen) and nobody gave me beef. The problem is when white people start trying to tell ethnically Asian people what being Asian is all about when it's not their place. I can tell a Japanese American what I've experienced in Japan and I may be able to tell them some trivia they don't know, but I can't speak to their experience as someone growing up ethnically Asian and personally attached to the experience from a young age. As I said, it's apples and oranges and it would be fucking condescending of me to act like I'm the authority on Asianness to them. Hell my kids are super Japanese even if they look a bit white and I would hope they don't give Asian Americans shit like Frank. It's a different experience and shouldn't be belittled in any way.

This is the flipped scenario Miletius is talking about. Because "being a Frank" naturally leads to making the Asian diaspora into perpetual foreigners by propping up that side of the scale.

e: broadened the point instead of just Asian Americans
 

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,474
That was a great post about Frank, and I'm thankful my white brother in law hasn't been pulling any of this.

The article about Asian Americans was fantastic. It really solidified to me what it means to be a model minority: white people are comfortable with you until they need an enemy or until you step out of line.

And I see that the white people in this thread are making things about themselves. Good show.
 

Davidion

Charitable King
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,069
Yeah same. I don't post a lot in the Asian community threads so it feels like I missed something.

Same here. I don't read hangouts.

But basic anti-Asian talk happened all the time here and at the old place. China this/that, emasculate this/that; the supposed woke and left do it too. Common shit.

Something something intersectionality.
 

DarthSpider

The Fallen
Nov 15, 2017
2,956
Hiroshima, Japan
As far as I'm aware, nowhere under the definition of immigrant does it say it has to be out of necessity. Expats are immigrants who feel they are above the label and want a special designation.

I don't know any expats who refer to themselves as such based on feelings of superiority. Of all the foreigners I know and have known based in Hiroshima, mostly people with PR refer to themselves as immigrants while those who know they're only here for a few years call themselves expats. That's an accurate usage as far as I'm aware. I don't know a single "lifer" who refers to themselves as an expat.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,789
As far as I'm aware, nowhere under the definition of immigrant does it say it has to be out of necessity. Expats are immigrants who feel they are above the label and want a special designation.

Expat is based on the relative location, whether you are coming or going. So around English speaking Americans, Americans and former Americans who went on to live in other countries are expats. People who are coming in are immigrants. For third parties we usually use immigrant as well.
 

JCLShay

Member
Apr 4, 2020
310
I'm of two-minds on Franks: On one-hand, they should know better. On the other, it's kind of hard when you're raised a certain way for a vast majority of your life. Please don't interpret this as a finger-wagging to white men, but when you consider our recent history (the past 300 years or so), the Ango-Saxon, Christian power was extremely dominant. England's Imperialism, America's Manifest Destiny, both sought out to integrate and destroy what defined other cultures.

The idea was because the white man's ideologies were the best and anything different were meant to be 'enlightened.'

The Asian countries proved difficult to convert on a wide-scale and that lead to tensions that lasted even as recently into the 1900s for America. I mean, America even put out specific government orders to limit the immigration of Asians and basically straight up banned Asian women from entering (which, to my belief, was one of the contributors to the 'asexual Asian' that existed in American movies since its inception).

I think with all this history being less than a generation or two removed from our modern society, it's not a surprise Franks exist. In much of the same way Americans have this notion that once you hit college, you need to be independent and live out on your own, this idea of "conquering" a culture is still subconsciously imprinted in a vast amount of the white conscience.

But that's just one dude's take.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
So I generally think that anyone who bring the ethnicity of their spouse to support anything needs to be laughed out of the conversation Immediately.
But I have to say, anecdotally, Vietnamese people I know generally don't like people who grew up in the US and write books talking shit about the country.
And I think there is an important cultural difference between Asian people and diaspora Asian, Asian Americans have been writing about this for a long time now, Viet Thanh Nguyen even addressed it really well I think.

I think more than anything, his problem is people in Vietnam, and I am not one to get anywhere close to this fight, and I swear I don't have an opinion, but I feel idiots like Frank are less the real issue, and it's more this stuff -

The sad part is seeing Vietnamese people making excuses for him and questioning whether Vietnamese Americans are actually Vietnamese. That's the subject of a whole other essay, but I'll just note the irony of how Vietnamese people in Vietnam like to treat me as a foreigner, a Viet Kieu, and condescend to me--until they need my money. Then all of a sudden I'm really Vietnamese, one of them, a long-lost countryman and relative who should understand their situation, feel for their plight, and give them whatever I have. Vietnamese people (in Vietnam but also in the United States) have some screwed up notions of authenticity that they need to work out for themselves.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,233
Canada
White youtubers/bloggers living in Asia are a subset of people I don't want to interact with. That weird "I'm part of an elite club" vibe that a lot of them have is off putting lol
https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Finsertcoin%2Ffiles%2F2017%2F03%2Firon-fist1.jpg
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
Official Staff Communication
As a reminder, the following behaviour is mentioned in the General Guide as being dismissive and bannable behaviour:

- Trying to derail the discussion such that it is no longer about the group of people that are affected by the issue.

Please do not hijack this thread to make it about the concerns of white men living in Asian countries instead of the actual topic, which is one that impacts Asians across the world, particularly the Asian diaspora. Engaging in this, or any other kind of dismissive behaviour will lead to a ban.
 
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kyorii

kyorii

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,981
Splatlandia
So I generally think that anyone who bring the ethnicity of their spouse to support anything needs to be laughed out of the conversation Immediately.
But I have to say, anecdotally, Vietnamese people I know generally don't like people who grew up in the US and write books talking shit about the country.
And I think there is an important cultural difference between Asian people and diaspora Asian, Asian Americans have been writing about this for a long time now, Viet Thanh Nguyen even addressed it really well I think.

I think more than anything, his problem is people in Vietnam, and I am not one to get anywhere close to this fight, and I swear I don't have an opinion, but I feel idiots like Frank are less the real issue, and it's more this stuff -
No this is definitely a thing. The Vietnamese diaspora is one hell of a thing. I thought I had it bad enough with the Asian American diaspora, but to top it off being Vietnamese born overseas is a whole nother can of worms. Viet Thanhs bit about the term Viet kieu is 💯. I experienced it first hand finally going to visit for the first time ever in my 30s. Initially you'd think oh wow, I'm surrounded by people just like me, until you open your mouth. They know instantly from the way you speak that you are viet kieu. More so, just like viet thanh, everyone thought I was Korean and spoke pretty good for one. This just got worse depending what region of VN you were in. In Saigon, folks were more reserved about it, but go up to the northern region in Hanoi, they will say it instantly with disdain. It was then I realized I wasnt as welcome here either and what the Vietnamese Dispora was. There's still resentment for people that left the country back during the war to this very day, and they display it with that label.

Frank's just compound the issue making it worse when they tell you that you know nothing about your culture.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
No this is definitely a thing. The Vietnamese diaspora is one hell of a thing. I thought I had it bad enough with the Asian American diaspora, but to top it off being Vietnamese born overseas is a whole nother can of worms. Viet Thanhs bit about the term Viet kieu is 💯. I experienced it first hand finally going to visit for the first time ever in my 30s. Initially you'd think oh wow, I'm surrounded by people just like me, until you open your mouth. They know instantly from the way you speak that you are viet kieu. More so, just like viet thanh, everyone thought I was Korean and spoke pretty good for one. This just got worse depending what region of VN you were in. In Saigon, folks were more reserved about it, but go up to the northern region in Hanoi, they will say it instantly with disdain. It was then I realized I wasnt as welcome here either and what the Vietnamese Dispora was. There's still resentment for people that left the country back during the war to this very day, and they display it with that label.

Frank's just compound the issue making it worse when they tell you that you know nothing about your culture.
I live in Seattle and it just bums me so much how the "new" and "old" Vietnamese migrant communities are still having fights over the Vietnam war.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
"Expats" are racist immigrants

Change my mind

I have/had expat friends in places like Thailand and Indonesia. I'm not sure if racist is the correct word to describe them.

It is true that they are in a position of privilege being white and all. They all have yellow fever and are sometimes unfaithful to their gf/wives, but I don't think the one's I've befriended are racist in the manner in which I define racists to be.

Racists are people that purposely perpetuate behavior that negatively affect one or a group of individuals based on their ethnicity/race.

I think it's fair for people to call some of these expats assholes because of their lack of introspection and taking advantage of their whiteness, but to say all expats are racists is maybe a half dozen steps too far?
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
I live in Seattle and it just bums me so much how the "new" and "old" Vietnamese migrant communities are still having fights over the Vietnam war.

Oh this is super interesting to me. Do you mean "new" and "old" VN migrants immigrated at different decades? Also, what and how are they fighting over the VN war?
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I have/had expat friends in places like Thailand and Indonesia. I'm not sure if racist is the correct word to describe them.

It is true that they are in a position of privilege being white and all. They all have yellow fever and are sometimes unfaithful to their gf/wives, but I don't think the one's I've befriended are racist in the manner in which I define racists to be.

Racists are people that purposely perpetuate behavior that negatively affect one or a group of individuals based on their ethnicity/race.

I think it's fair for people to call some of these expats assholes because of their lack of introspection and taking advantage of their whiteness, but to say all expats are racists is maybe a half dozen steps too far?
I feel that's mostly true for the english teacher crowd, not all of them, but as a whole, and like, the general feel you get from those communities.
But that's not the only expat community in those countries.
Intel has offices in Vietnam, there are foreigner who just work there, and from I've seen mostly living pretty normal lives.
You have diplomats, you have journalists, an they're not exactly like the "TOP 10 THINGS MY VIETNAMESE GIRLFRIEND DON'T LIKE WHEN I DO" people, if you know what I mean.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
I feel that's mostly true for the english teacher crowd, not all of them, but as a whole, and like, the general feel you get from those communities.
But that's not the only expat community in those countries.
Intel has offices in Vietnam, there are foreigner who just work there, and from I've seen mostly living pretty normal lives.
You have diplomats, you have journalists, an they're not exactly like the "TOP 10 THINGS MY VIETNAMESE GIRLFRIEND DON'T LIKE WHEN I DO" people, if you know what I mean.

I know exactly what you mean here. Would these expat friends of mine be my friends in the SF Bay Area? Maybe not, but they were decent enough people for me to hang around with while I'm abroad.

Thanks for bringing up the "top 10 things my VN girlfriend don't like when I do" this is exactly what I was trying to describe in my post, meaning, they are literally abusing their social position because they are white. However, to say all expats are racists is a bit reductive and simplifying the social situation too much.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
having yellow fever, kind of implies they have a fetishism for Asian women, which is kind of racist.

I'm not sure if having a preference necessitates racism? I'm Asian but I mostly date Asian women, but that doesn't necessarily make me racists. It becomes super confusing when the word racist(s) is thrown around since it may have different connotations depending on the person. As I have personally defined it on my post, it's is discrimination based on one's ethnicity/race.

Maybe I chose the wrong term (yellow fever) to describe the expats I met abroad because I often joke around with the term with them. They like Asian women, but not at the exclusivity of only dating them, cause they would be open to dating women of other races, but they were in Thailand or Indonesia, so they dated/married Asian women while they were there.
 

Seductivpancakes

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,790
Brooklyn
I'm not sure if having a preference necessitates racism? I'm Asian but I mostly date Asian women, but that doesn't necessarily make me racists. It becomes super confusing when the word racist(s) is thrown around since it may have different connotations depending on the person. As I have personally defined it on my post, it's is discrimination based on one's ethnicity/race.

Maybe I chose the wrong term (yellow fever) to describe the expats I met abroad because I often joke around with the term with them. They like Asian women, but not at the exclusivity of only dating them, cause they would be open to dating women of other races, but they were in Thailand or Indonesia, so they dated/married Asian women while they were there.
I think you just chose the wrong wording or maybe yellow fever just have two different meanings for us. No big.
 

Formless61

Member
Oct 27, 2017
203
Oh this is super interesting to me. Do you mean "new" and "old" VN migrants immigrated at different decades? Also, what and how are they fighting over the VN war?

There's the refugees from the war, who are mostly from the South (Lots of Catholics, anti communists, etc) and those who are more recent arrivals like students and such who don't fly the old South Vietnamese flag or feel as bitter about modern Vietnam.

After the Vietnam war there were paramilitary attempts by those living abroad/still in Vietnam who wanted another South Vietnamese uprising
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
I think you just chose the wrong wording or maybe yellow fever just have two different meanings for us. No big.
Yeah my bad, I should be more careful with these terms that can be loaded or ambiguous.

There's the refugees from the war, who are mostly from the South (Lots of Catholics, anti communists, etc) and those who are more recent arrivals like students and such who don't fly the old South Vietnamese flag or feel as bitter about modern Vietnam.

After the Vietnam war there were paramilitary attempts by those living abroad/still in Vietnam who wanted another South Vietnamese uprising

Hey thanks for the article, I'll give it a read. What you bring up is super interesting and hits really close to home for me (family is Chinese but living in North VN during the war).
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Oh this is super interesting to me. Do you mean "new" and "old" VN migrants immigrated at different decades? Also, what and how are they fighting over the VN war?
So I'm sure there is a ton of nuance I don't get, but I can tell you how it manifested itself around here.
So for example, if you go the neighborhood where most of the Vietnamese community who came here in 70s live, they still fly south Vietnam flags everywhere.
And that flag, I don't know about everyone in Vietnam, but there are a lot of people that really don't like that flag and what it symbolize.
I know exactly what you mean here. Would these expat friends of mine be my friends in the SF Bay Area? Maybe not, but they were decent enough people for me to hang around with while I'm abroad.

Thanks for bringing up the "top 10 things my VN girlfriend don't like when I do" this is exactly what I was trying to describe in my post, meaning, they are literally abusing their social position because they are white. However, to say all expats are racists is a bit reductive and simplifying the social situation too much.
They're not all bad people, they just live in this endless spring break mode.
And I get why, but they're always doing it in fancy parts of major cities. If Asians were acting like this in the US you would have had a travel ban in five minutes.
 

Miletius

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,257
Berkeley, CA
The problem with many (not all) of dating expats is that they are exploiting a power differential that exists between themselves and their partners. That may not be explicitly racist, but it is colonialist, which is a racist policy. Are they explicitly racist, i.e. do they do the slanty eyes thing and go around saying 'bing bong ching chong.' Nah. But are they good people? Eh, I guess it depends on your definition of good. I would say, not really in this moment, but maybe they can change.
 
OP
OP
kyorii

kyorii

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,981
Splatlandia
Yeah my bad, I should be more careful with these terms that can be loaded or ambiguous.



Hey thanks for the article, I'll give it a read. What you bring up is super interesting and hits really close to home for me (family is Chinese but living in North VN during the war).
Here's another great article about that diaspora too

www.huffpost.com

Our Vietnamese Hearts: The Diaspora 38 Years Later

Our Vietnamese Hearts: The Diaspora 38 Years Later

But basically, the younger generation don't see this division anymore and see modern Vietnam for what it is. But the older generations from the North and South still have at it, mainly the south. Understandably so, there's many southern families that have had relatives murdered in the war by the opposition. Uncles/ mothers etc, or at least left people crippled or worse after the reeducation camps. So I absolutely get why they still hold onto it and why future generations here feel that way. They still feel like it was just right after the fall of Saigon as if it were yesterday. The article talks about this, be it in the Vietnamese communities in California or even here in Seattle, as both communities fly the South flag publicly here.

Oh, Viet living in Seattle here too :D
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
3,789
The problem with many (not all) of dating expats is that they are exploiting a power differential that exists between themselves and their partners. That may not be explicitly racist, but it is colonialist, which is a racist policy. Are they explicitly racist, i.e. do they do the slanty eyes thing and go around saying 'bing bong ching chong.' Nah. But are they good people? Eh, I guess it depends on your definition of good. I would say, not really in this moment, but maybe they can change.

This is dangerously close to "stealing our women" rhetoric. You are portraying women as a passive entity in the dating transaction.
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
www.nytimes.com

Vietnamese Lives, American Imperialist Views, Even in ‘Da 5 Bloods’ (Published 2020)

Black soldiers finally get their own story, but in one important respect, the film is no different from other Hollywood dramas that came before.

Basically while it's great Spike Lee featured it with African leads, it still ultimately portrays the Vietnam War like every other American film on the Vietnam War out there, an imperialistic fantasy that only tells one side of the story.
Thanks for posting this (and the OP). I watched Da 5 Bloods and felt a similar conflict as the author here when watching it, but he put it far better than I ever could have with my lack of perspective.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Thanks for posting this (and the OP). I watched Da 5 Bloods and felt a similar conflict as the author here when watching it, but he put it far better than I ever could have with my lack of perspective.
This article made me rewatch Apocalypse Now, and oof... there was a solid decade that I might have told you it's my favorite movie of all time if you asked.
But I feel like I'm derailing...
 
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OP
kyorii

kyorii

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,981
Splatlandia
Thanks for posting this (and the OP). I watched Da 5 Bloods and felt a similar conflict as the author here when watching it, but he put it far better than I ever could have with my lack of perspective.
That is the craziest thing, is how much America fetishizes the Vietnam War. So many films specifically about this war, looking back at something to be proud of nostalgically. Even in Video games like Call of Duty.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,234
The problem with many (not all) of dating expats is that they are exploiting a power differential that exists between themselves and their partners. That may not be explicitly racist, but it is colonialist, which is a racist policy. Are they explicitly racist, i.e. do they do the slanty eyes thing and go around saying 'bing bong ching chong.' Nah. But are they good people? Eh, I guess it depends on your definition of good. I would say, not really in this moment, but maybe they can change.
This assumes the women in those relationships don't have agency.

Interracial couples get enough shit as it is without people calling them a manifestation of colonialism or whatever.
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
That is the craziest thing, is how much America fetishizes the Vietnam War. So many films specifically about this war, looking back at something to be proud of nostalgically. Even in Video games like Call of Duty.
I'm not American, I'm British, as well as a refugee from a country that was colonised by Britain (and other European countries), so I'm no stranger to whitewashing and imperialistic attitudes myself, but it feels like Vietnam in particular is subject to this thanks to Hollywood. I'm disappointed that Da 5 Bloods fell into the same mistakes too, even though it sought to tell its story from a marginalised perspective. But it did so while not affording the same respect to Vietnamese people.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
The problem with many (not all) of dating expats is that they are exploiting a power differential that exists between themselves and their partners. That may not be explicitly racist, but it is colonialist, which is a racist policy. Are they explicitly racist, i.e. do they do the slanty eyes thing and go around saying 'bing bong ching chong.' Nah. But are they good people? Eh, I guess it depends on your definition of good. I would say, not really in this moment, but maybe they can change.

This is very complex topic as far as what constitutes as colonialism. You're absolutely correct that there may exists a power differential when it comes to an expat (white guy) with an expat package (getting paid western middle class wages) while dating an Asian woman in an Asian country, but is that due to money and/or race (white privilege)? But, I also want to point out the nuance of that a money differential exists everywhere, in every country, so, it's not an expat exclusive thing, so I'm not sure how big of a factor when it comes to colonialism.

I'll just take a step by step approach on the topic and maybe I can make some sense of this for myself.

If we are to to hypothesize a stereotypical expat dating a lower SES woman, then that might be consider colonialist situation. But, is this a true colonialistic relationship? Is this relationship based on money? Who knows, but to assume that it is would dismiss the agency of the woman, so let's focus on the social side of it. What is the impetus of the social difference? Is it due to Hollywood's influence on perpetuating white status? I honestly don't know, but these countries also has their own media conglomerates where the main TV and movie stars are Asian, so I'm not sure how pervasive Hollywood's influence can be, especially in countries that were never colonized, like Thailand for example.

Let's hypothesize an expat dating a high SES woman, would you call this a colonialistic situation? I have trouble considering this one since money is not a power differential, and it's also possible that the woman has more wealth than the white guy (I know a few instances of these types of relationships). Is the social power differential also applicable in this context? Maybe, but it might also depend on which country we are talking about, for example, the Dutch colonized Indonesia, but again, Thailand never was.

So, in the end, I'm not sure how strong of an argument can be made about colonialism, because there are many variables that needs to be considered.
1). You're going to have to dismiss the agency of the Asian person, meaning, he/she is not dating the westerner due to simply liking them, but because they are doing it because of the money.
2). Each country has a different history with colonialism, and it may or may not be relevant.
3). The penetration of Hollywood pushing the white protagonist, and how much influence this has.

I still think it's much more nuance than what you're suggesting and it's a very reductive and too simple since humans have many reasons to date one another. But, to suggest that expats don't take advantage of their whiteness privilege is also denying a reality.
 

nampad

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,238
This thread brought up the movie "Da 5 Bloods", which review was the start of this fiasco. After watching it and reading Nguyen's review afterwards, I have to say I totally agree with him.

It was how I felt the whole movie as a fellow Viet Kieu. Funny to see how Frank got into explaining this particular issue to Nguyen. Something he would really know nothing about.

www.nytimes.com

Vietnamese Lives, American Imperialist Views, Even in ‘Da 5 Bloods’ (Published 2020)

Black soldiers finally get their own story, but in one important respect, the film is no different from other Hollywood dramas that came before.
 

spider

CLANG
On Break
Oct 23, 2017
973
Australia
that additional newer remarks are so true. anger is not always necessarily bad. some anger is righteous and the root cause must be fought for.