Freelancers out there, do you charge for pitch meetings/proposal work?

[ArnoldJRimmer]

Often times a proposal is fairly straightforward for me. Describe the technology stack, provide a basic walkthrough of the solution to the business problem I'm going to solve, possibly provide a preliminary time table and estimated cost. Still, these things take time, but I don't usually charge for the couple of hours a proposal usually takes.

However, other times I am asked for a lot more work in terms of my proposal. Travel to an office and provide a powerpoint presentation, provide a detailed statement of work before the client has signed a contract (or provided a down payment), I've had clients ask me to do a ton of project management work (like creating user stories, breaking them down into tasks) before they hire me for the contract, and some have taken that hard work and used it as a template for hiring other cheaper developers!

I'm facing another client right now, pretty decent contract, they liked my proposal, but they want to have a meeting at their office, which will take a good hour for me to get to, they want a power point presentation and they want to use the meeting time to lock down the scope of the project.

All great things to achieve, but this is my time. It's going to be hours of work on a presentation, travel time, then a meeting that is likely to be a couple of hours long as well. If it leads to a contract, fine, but what if it doesn't?

I'm leaning towards informing my client asap, that there will be a discovery/presentation fee associated with this proposal meeting that I will waive if we go through with the contract, but otherwise will bill them for if we don't.

Does this sound reasonable to you guys?

I agreed to the meeting yesterday, not thinking about the issue of the work until a few hours after the call, so now I have to go back to my client to inform them. How would you approach that? I'm thinking of just saying, that it slipped my mind yesterday, but, blah blah blah...

 

[SugarNoodles]

Of course. Waiving the fee if they agree to the contract is a good way of going about it.

If they expect you to come to them with a power point and have an hour long meeting for free they can go fuck themselves.

 

[Blizz]

Your solution is pretty fair.

 

[ArnoldJRimmer]

Thanks for the feedback guys! I'm essentially charging 1/2 my development hourly rate for what I expect will be a total 5 hours of my time when all is said and done. Let's hope the client stays happy :)

 

[Stooge]

As someone who hires freelancers I would say:

1) Response to initial stuff should be free. Like getting rates, availability, a CV.
2) Once you start putting together actual original work (illustrative, conceptual, high-level design): charge.

The reality is a lot of what you do in step 2 could wind up being formative to ideas they take even if they go another direction. Like if Freelancer X felt like a better fit but they liked Part 234 of your proposal they may uh... "borrow" it. I always pay illustrators for test pieces before we decide to work with them on a project and I always pay consultants for their initial proposal scope documents since that is by it's very nature consulting.

Edit: on your second point of them asking you to do specific asks before you have a contract: Don't. I wouldn't ask anyone to do anything specific to my company before there is a contract in place. Anything pre-contract needs to be from a 10,000 foot general view.

 

[davepoobond]

Other than showing my previous work or maybe verbally shooting a couple of ideas about what I would provide them, I don't do any work for free when I do freelance stuff.

I primarily edit video though so there isn't much "pre-production" that needs to go on, and I make the client do that sort of leg work for me. I charge on the back end.

 

[Mrflood]

Not sure I agree with this approach. Everything they are asking are standard "Pre-Sale" activities. (Not talking about other clients who have bigger demands) Their are costs to aquiring "New Business" and its silly to expect the potential client to cover them.

 

[Iceman]

My company is still young, but I would charge for any kind of scoping work.

Proposals become somewhat rote. That's one thing. But customizing solutions based on information gathering, that's a crucial part of your workflow.

We categorize that under general consultation time (and charge our general consultation rate).

Proposals are free, of course, that's like providing a menu of services. But if you take time out of my work day, when I could be spending that on another paying client or project, nah bro, that's $.

 

[Deleted member 11069]

Not sure I agree with this approach. Everything they are asking are standard "Pre-Sale" activities. (Not talking about other clients who have bigger demands) Their are costs to aquiring "New Business" and its silly to expect the potential client to cover them.

Click to shrink...

Depends on the industry and the work you do for them.

I have done character sketches for free if I knew the person or had confidence in the project.
If I don't then I'm asking for money upfront.
I would think it's the same if you work on a PowerPoint about a specific problem.

I've also heard too many horror stories from designer friend's about idea stealing /going inhouse after you presented a good idea. Getting some money up front makes that a bit less shit.

 

[ArnoldJRimmer]

Well, the client doesn't seem to like it.

He says his boss wouldn't be happy paying me for what is basically making a pitch.

My pitch was my formal, written proposal though, not me taking 5 hours of my time to build a power point presentation, and have a 2 hour meeting about scope in your office. Which is again, fine if we move forward on the contract.

At the same time, I can kind of see their point of view. I'm supposed to be the one coming in hat in hand asking for their money. If other developers are willing to come into their office and deliver a pitch meeting without the prospect of payment why should they go with someone else, why am I charging?

Of course, I know that other proposals for this contract have been way above their budget, most likely because they are talking to boutiques who probably have a dedicated sales person whose job is to come in and do these types of proposals if they need to.

Maybe I should just bite the bullet on these as the cost of doing business, Calculate how much it costs me to do proposals every year, and make sure that is added to my "minimum to keep the lights on amount" which is what I use to index my overall development fees.

Of course, now this client might be soured on me. He said I was lead in getting the job so now I have to decide whether to waive the fee and move forward, possibly with a client contact that is soured on me for asking this and therefore have less of a chance of landing the contract, or possibly cutting my losses and holding my ground. Explain why there is a fee and ask him to take it to his boss.

ARGH!

 

[Yahsper]

I do proposals for free, but I calculate the lost revenue in my hourly fee to compensate. I've only very rarely done any work for naught.

edit: and to fix the situation, just say that you've never had this problem with a client before and it's your usual way of working but because you really want to work with them and offer them the correct solution, you'll do the 'pitch' without billing.

 

[ArnoldJRimmer]

I do proposals for free, but I calculate the lost revenue in my hourly fee to compensate. I've only very rarely done any work for naught.

Click to shrink...

But what kind of proposal. I wouldn't charge for a written proposal even with details on the technology that will be used, time table and expected costs, and I have done that for this client, including a half hour phone meeting too.

But taking time to visit their office, pitch the proposal again, and discuss the scope of the project? Would that be free to for you?

I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm genuinely curious. If it's the standard operating procedure for a freelancer, especially in software development, then it's something I just have to calculate into my fees, like you are doing.

 

[Cookie]

Well, the client doesn't seem to like it.

He says his boss wouldn't be happy paying me for what is basically making a pitch.

My pitch was my formal, written proposal though, not me taking 5 hours of my time to build a power point presentation, and have a 2 hour meeting about scope in your office. Which is again, fine if we move forward on the contract.

At the same time, I can kind of see their point of view. I'm supposed to be the one coming in hat in hand asking for their money. If other developers are willing to come into their office and deliver a pitch meeting without the prospect of payment why should they go with someone else, why am I charging?

Of course, I know that other proposals for this contract have been way above their budget, most likely because they are talking to boutiques who probably have a dedicated sales person whose job is to come in and do these types of proposals if they need to.

Maybe I should just bite the bullet on these as the cost of doing business, Calculate how much it costs me to do proposals every year, and make sure that is added to my "minimum to keep the lights on amount" which is what I use to index my overall development fees.

Of course, now this client might be soured on me. He said I was lead in getting the job so now I have to decide whether to waive the fee and move forward, possibly with a client contact that is soured on me for asking this and therefore have less of a chance of landing the contract, or possibly cutting my losses and holding my ground. Explain why there is a fee and ask him to take it to his boss.

ARGH!

Click to shrink...

If it were me, I have my own business too, I always stand my ground. It doesn't really matter what they say, once you've set a rule then you stand by that rule. That's just me though.

 

[HammerOfThor]

No, mainly because I don't believe in charging someone just to see if we'd be a good fit to work together.

 

[Yahsper]

I don't work in tech but in finance, so I'm sure my process is different but I've never even done a proposal that doesn't involve me driving to the client and having a long meeting to discuss things face-to-face, and me preparing for this meeting by doing research on what their situation is.

I'm probably a bit too easygoing in this, but hour 1 of billing has always been the moment I start work for them with a formal agreement. I lose some money on this on the short term, but like I said, I calculate that in my hourly fee which pays itself greatly in dividends with every client I land.

Edit: thinking of it, a competitor of mine takes a different strategy. He doesn't do the whole proposal thing, but 'works' a day for free at their company to get to know their situation better and offers his solution at the end of the day. If the company wants him to stay, he'll bill by the hour fom then on. If the company isn't particularly impressed by his ideas, he doesn't get paid. Uptake here is that he doesn't need to do long proposals and can offer a very customized solution. But he also potentially loses entire days.

 

[citrusred]

Where I work no, but we'd never do stuff like user stories as part of a pitch. It's kind of doing the hard part for free.

 

[ArnoldJRimmer]

I don't work in tech but in finance, so I'm sure my process is different but I've never even done a proposal that doesn't involve me driving to the client and having a long meeting to discuss things face-to-face, and me preparing for this meeting by doing research on what their situation is.

I'm probably a bit too easygoing in this, but hour 1 of billing has always been the moment I start work for them with a formal agreement. I lose some money on this on the short term, but like I said, I calculate that in my hourly fee which pays itself greatly in dividends with every client I land.

Edit: thinking of it, a competitor of mine takes a different strategy. He doesn't do the whole proposal thing, but 'works' a day for free at their company to get to know their situation better and offers his solution at the end of the day. If the company wants him to stay, he'll bill by the hour fom then on. If the company isn't particularly impressed by his ideas, he doesn't get paid. Uptake here is that he doesn't need to do long proposals and can offer a very customized solution. But he also potentially loses entire days.

Click to shrink...

Hmm, good stuff, thank you for your insight!

As much as it pains my bottom line and the effect on my time, I'm leaning towards just seeing it as the costs of doing business. I certainly don't want it to alienate potential clients. And do I really want to possibly waste more time chasing after a client that fell through for them to pay my fee?

I'm stuck on what to do with this particular client though....

 

[Yahsper]

I realise I'm bumping this thread now but just as a concrete example, I just set an appointment for next week with a potential client for who I'll have to present not 1 but 3 case studies through PowerPoint. It's the most extensive I've done to date and it's for free.

 

[Br3wnor]

Hmm, good stuff, thank you for your insight!

As much as it pains my bottom line and the effect on my time, I'm leaning towards just seeing it as the costs of doing business. I certainly don't want it to alienate potential clients. And do I really want to possibly waste more time chasing after a client that fell through for them to pay my fee?

I'm stuck on what to do with this particular client though....

Click to shrink...

If the standard in your industry is not to charge for this kind of stuff you're gonna be at a disadvantage if you're charging unless your work is far and above better than everyone else and your hourly rate is competitive. Part of the problem, even if you are the best, is placed might not even let you make a pitch if they know they have to pay up front to hear it. It sucks but you're gonna sour a lot of places if you're the only potential freelancer charging them a fee whether they hire you or not.