Freedom of speech debate heats up in France after death threats to 16-year-old girl who called Islam "religion of hate"

[echoshifting]

Again people need to understand the framing of this issue is not that we are getting on an 18-year-old's case for being shitty in public. We are getting on France's case for taking it as a cause celebre that requires debate on what the law should be, that is it's pretty transparently there to manufacture colonialism.

The thing is, if religions are mere ideologies, then so are nation-states. This cuts both ways.

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Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, but I really don't think this is broadly reflective of the stances expressed in this thread. We've had, what she did was just as bad. We've had, she is a piece of shit. We've had a depressing lack of sympathy for her current situation or the homophobia she endured from way too many people. This seems to very much be about the gay kid and how racist she is for many of the people in this thread.

 

[CharlieTwoZero]

Accusations? She said some racist shit what are you on about?

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I mean you accusing me of being a racist.

funny how you're more then willing to throw LGBT community under the bus because she said Islam is hateful.

 

[Horp]

Honestly, this whole discussion is weird to me, cause there are so many foundations in it that doesn't make logical sense.
Having a discussion about any matter at least to me implies that there is a need for logic and reasoning, and that is so severly lacking in this subject.

Let me explain what I mean:
1. Having faith - believing in a particular religion means that you for some reason (don't ask me how, cause I'm not religeous) cast aside your need for proofs and logic while viewing a particular text. Everywhere else in your life, every other text or argument you hear or read, you need proofs, reasoning and logic, but not for this one particular text. This in itself is illogical. It's faith, but it's not logical.

2. For some reason, a lot of people claim that there is this one "true-text" (mentioned in 1), but some parts of it are free to ignore. Huh? Are these the words of the prophet/saviour/someone/something or not? I don't understand this. It simply makes no sense to me.

Maybe more people are like me. Like, it's very hard for me to understand how you can accept this holy book and this holy prophet and all knowing god (be it Christianity or something other religion) that has put it into literal writing that homosexuality is a sin. The fact that you don't just cast aside this book all together when you read that (assuming you aren't homophobic) is so strange to me; in the same way that I find (2) above to be so strange.

 

[HellforLeather]

Not just non-white Muslims, but Muslims in general, and brown people who could be mistaken for Muslim by ignorant racists. Islamophobia can sometimes just be another form of racism against Middle Easterners and South Asians (and people who look like them). And hatred towards Islam is not always rooted in disagreements with the teachings, but rather because Muslims are an 'other' and a threat to their 'culture'. You'll also find plenty of Islamophobes who either follow or are fine with the other Abrahamic faiths, despite their holy scriptures having equally problematic stuff.

But yes, that's where the pushback against the "Islam isn't a race" argument comes from. Because Islamophobes use it as an excuse to mask their hatred against Muslims specifically. Because the implication is usually "Islam isn't a race, therefore I cannot be a racist when I decide to incite hatred against Muslims, I'm just attacking the religion, you see." There's a big difference between thoughtful and responsible critique and fear-mongering, generalising etc. The latter hurts innocent Muslims who are a persecuted minority in many parts of the world, despite Islam being the second largest religion overall.

I think a big issue that I see recurring in this thread is that people look at this from a black and white perspective, or look at things literally/simplistically (like the argument you made in your initial post). While technically true that Islam isn't a religion, it's ignoring the context in which this phrase is commonly used, and why people take issue with it. On the other hand, I don't think the solution is to never criticise Islam as a religion either, as there does need to be pressure for it to modernise and become more progressive, even in secular nations. I have personal experience with this, and see what this lack of progress does in my own community.

Which kind of goes back to what I mentioned at the end of my first paragraph. In the context of countries where Muslims are a minority, I feel the most responsible way to critique it is speaking about all of the religions that have these issues, including Christianity. Singling out Islam just bears the risk of making Muslims out to be this evil and barbaric group of people, even though there are plenty of Muslims who follow a progressive and inclusive interpretation of Islam, and there are many non-Muslim majority countries that have similar issues.

TLDR: There's a lot to criticise in the Quran and prophetic sayings, but there are responsible ways to do that without endangering marginalised Muslims.

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I agree with you but every time someone attacks Islam, people come out of the wood work shouting "dogwhistle!". So what is the responsible way to criticize the religion without being accused of just being a racist? Do we call it "Fundamentalist Islam"? People are just people and all should be afforded human decency and human rights but I refuse to apply these rights to garbage ideologies. Just because a significant number of people believe in a shitty idea does not suddenly make the idea any less shit.

This whole thing seems crazy to me because you can always have someone who is just a racist prick that will jump through whatever hoops you set up while the rest of us who have serious issues with the Islamic fundamentalism (and anyone who is concerned about human rights should) will just be labeled as racists by passers by. By the same token, stupid people will still take criticism of the religion as a reason to hate the race of the people who practice it...so whats the answer here?

 

[Deleted member 5086]

I agree with you but every time someone attacks Islam, people come out of the wood work shouting "dogwhistle!". So what is the responsible way to criticize the religion without being accused of just being a racist? Do we call it "Fundamentalist Islam"? People are just people and all should be afforded human decency and human rights but I refuse to apply these rights to garbage ideologies. Just because a significant number of people believe in a shitty idea does not suddenly make the idea any less shit.

This whole thing seems crazy to me because you can always have someone who is just a racist prick that will jump through whatever hoops you set up while the rest of us who have serious issues with the Islamic fundamentalism (and anyone who is concerned about human rights should) will just be labeled as racists by passers by. By the same token, stupid people will still take criticism of the religion as a reason to hate the race of the people who practice it...so whats the answer here?

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I do agree that some people go too far in saying you can't even criticise Islam as a religion, because that's allowing other minorities down too imo.

I think I have a somewhat unique perspective here as someone who:

1) Was raised a practicing Muslim their entire life.
2) Had a keen interest in Islam beyond what my family had taught me for many years, so I read up even deeper into Islam.
3) Has had their life very negatively impacted by Islam, as both a woman and member of the LGBT+ community (to the point that at one point, I wished I wasn't born a woman, because I felt my life would have been easier), and is no longer Muslim.
4) Has faced a ton of Islamophobia - to the extent that if I was asked if the racism, misogyny or Islamophobia I've faced from others has had a worse impact on my life overall, it'd be a hard question to answer - sometimes I faced bigotry because of all of these things at once.

I feel like this kind of gives me a lot of insight into the delicate intersectionality of these kinds of situations, and allows me to have empathy and understanding for everyone involved. Because as a practicing Muslim, I was routinely blamed for things I didn't believe in or do. I was even blamed for 9/11 by a school mate who I had been friends with for years. I've been called a terrorist more times than you can imagine, sometimes by men twice my size screaming in my ear. After a terrorist attack, I'd be frightened like everyone else, but also frightened that I'd be physically attacked because I was Muslim, even though I was staunchly against terrorism, and so was literally every single Muslim I'd ever met. One time my non-Muslim friend was out with me at night, and commented on all of the hostile looks I was getting, and asked why I wasn't scared. I told her I blocked it out, and didn't even notice it anymore, because if I did I wouldn't be able to live and function in society. So I'm privy to how frightening it can be for Muslims to simply exist in Western society due to the constant fear-mongering and being singled out for issues that are present in many religions, or for things that a very small minority take part in (terrorism) etc. I don't think I deserved that, and I don't think any of the Muslims in these countries do either. Not when I had no desire to force my faith on others, but simply wished to practice my religion privately.

But like I said in some earlier posts, there are also other victims here. Not only the LGBT+ community at large, but LGBT+ Muslims and women (or people from said communities who have left Islam, but who are still intertwined with said community) are not benefited by criticism against Islamic texts and beliefs being stifled. I know some people say not to generalise Islam, but I think for me there's a difference between the actual 'source material' so to speak, and the interpretations of that text by different Muslims. I personally believe all of the holy scriptures of Abrahamic faiths (I'm not well read enough on others to speak on them) contain some very problematic and sometimes hateful messages.

The reason I left Islam is that I felt though I could find a progressive interpretation for those verses (and did for many years), I didn't honestly believe that that progressive message is the message that was originally preached. And if it wasn't, then that would mean the god I worshipped was cruel and unjust. And I could not worship a cruel and unjust being, especially one that is often described as all-merciful, and supposedly incapable of mistakes. Once that happened, everything else fell apart for me, and I realised the only thing that was keeping me in said faith was the fear that I was indoctrinated with.

But that's just me. If someone manages to find a progressive interpretation, and sincerely believes that, and does not try to force their faith on others, this is something that should be encouraged. So I applaud all of the religious people who do this. If everyone in the world was like this, it'd be a much better place. I think making the distinction between how the religion has been and is practiced by some, making it clear that not all Muslims believe in that stuff, and pointing to a better alternative (the progressive form of Islam that many follow) is one way. Another thing is not singling out Islam with these criticisms, as there are many conservative non-Muslim countries that have issues with homophobia and misogyny for example. This might seem like a lot of effort to dissect a religion, but I feel it's the responsible and empathetic way to do it, that minimises the backlash against an already persecuted and marginalised community, while speaking up for other marginalised communities.

 

[HellforLeather]

I feel like this kind of gives me a lot of insight into the delicate intersectionality of these kinds of situations, and allows me to have empathy and understanding for everyone involved. Because as a practicing Muslim, I was routinely blamed for things I didn't believe in or do. I was even blamed for 9/11 by a school mate who I had been friends with for years. I've been called a terrorist more times than you can imagine, sometimes by men twice my size screaming in my ear. After a terrorist attack, I'd be frightened like everyone else, but also frightened that I'd be physically attacked because I was Muslim, even though I was staunchly against terrorism, and so was literally every single Muslim I'd ever met.

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I appreciate your response. I think this part really shines a light on one of the problems though. There will always be morons who conflate the two and cannot separate them, but does this mean that all conversations about this subject manner should be stifled by these people?

Another thing is not singling out Islam with these criticisms, as there are many conservative non-Muslim countries that have issues with homophobia and misogyny for example. This might seem like a lot of effort to dissect a religion, but I feel it's the responsible and empathetic way to do it, that minimises the backlash against an already persecuted and marginalised community, while speaking up for other marginalised communities.

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I get what you are saying here but there are well known atheists who have literally built their careers on criticizing Christianity and Catholicism who are immediately labeled as xenophobes for mentioning anything negative about Islam. Also, is there any other faith that we have to do this with? Nobody goes out of their way to mention that they also disagree with Islam when they are bashing Catholicism.

 

[Deleted member 5086]

I appreciate your response. I think this part really shines a light on one of the problems though. There will always be morons who conflate the two and cannot separate them, but does this mean that all conversations about this subject manner should be stifled by these people?




I get what you are saying here but there are well known atheists who have literally built their careers on criticizing Christianity and Catholicism who are immediately labeled as xenophobes for mentioning anything negative about Islam. Also, is there any other faith that we have to do this with? Nobody goes out of their way to mention that they also disagree with Islam when they are bashing Catholicism.

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The reason the issue is so delicate is because of the power imbalance. Someone in this thread mentioned being from Tunisia, and since it's a Muslim majority country, obviously harsh statements against Islam are not going to have anything to do with Islamophobia or racism, or lead to Muslims being marginalised. That's why the comparison to Catholicism doesn't work in the western world. Because Catholics aren't a persecuted minority there. I don't think people are making this argument for every single country in the world, because situations will differ based on the dominant group. If someone speaks carelessly about Catholicism in America, is someone going to go out and beat up a "Catholic looking" person? Are they going to shoot up a Catholic church? Will Catholic owned businesses be vandalised? The answer to all of these things is that, no, that's all very very unlikely to happen, especially as part of a trend.

 

[jaxom]

Which kind of goes back to what I mentioned at the end of my first paragraph. In the context of countries where Muslims are a minority, I feel the most responsible way to critique it is speaking about all of the religions that have these issues, including Christianity. Singling out Islam just bears the risk of making Muslims out to be this evil and barbaric group of people, even though there are plenty of Muslims who follow a progressive and inclusive interpretation of Islam, and there are many non-Muslim majority countries that have similar issues.

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Come on , you miss a lot of context here. Islam is not singled out at all, French people bash on ALL religion quite often since at least 1905 and the religious civil war.

eglise = church

Atheism is not seen the same in France and anglo countries, and the right to criticize or mock any religion , anytime, in any way, even if it's insulting is something we litteraly fought for and try to keep because we find it healthy. When a religion starts to be untouchable, higher than the liberty of speech/criticize/mock or even insult, that's when you start to have problems in your country. And yes normal people differenciate easily between the religion and the people behind.

Doesnt mean you need to like the message, i'm not a big fan of charlie hebdo satire myself, but everybody has the right to deliver this message without being harassed or more.

Yes far right in France too is centered on islam and only islam, and it's hard to not see racist intent behind their speech because there is.
But the negative view of islam and any other religion including christianity, in France, is FAR from coming from the far right only or having always racist intents, on the contrary.

Thats why we have so many comics and critics that don't hesitate to speak , mock , insult or satire religion, charlie hebdo being only the sadly famous one of many.

A mole in the Vatican. The pope: "it changes me of the choirboys".

Thing is today in France you don't recieve death threats when you ridicule or insult christianity ( and we clearly , clearly do) , you don't have journalists killed when they do a satire of jesus, or mixing pedophile stories and the vatican...

But it clearly happens when you touch islam, and this is what really singles it out in France today, not racism. When we have death threats , journalists killed, terrorist attacks and 25% of muslims in France that thinks that chariah law should be higher than the law of the country, not even speaking about journalists/comics, it's not hard to single out a religious extremist current that grows in the country coming from one specific religion.

Christianity is being mocked and ridiculed at least as much as islam, and as violently. A couple of days before this 16 year old girl story i was listening to a radio comic on one of the main radio channel of France ridiculing jesus on a song that would have shocked half of resetera people it seems. and its something else than a tweet from a harassed 16yo girl lost on internet. But the guy didn't recieve any death threats, it didn't make any news, even less internationally, and life went by normally....

So resetera should stop trying to concentrate on finding if it's racist or not and maybe we should discuss about the real problem here : why there is thousands of death threats when you touch a religion, and why some people think it's normal.

 

[jaxom]

double post

 

[Deleted member 2809]

It's 2020 not 1905
Islam, muslims and arabs in general have been the main target of all the vitriol in France for about 30 years now

 

[Deleted member 5086]

Come on , you miss a lot of context here. Islam is not singled out at all, French people bash on ALL religion quite often since at least 1905 and the religious civil war.

eglise = church

Atheism is not seen the same in France and anglo countries, and the right to criticize or mock any religion , anytime, in any way, even if it's insulting is something we litteraly fought for and try to keep because we find it healthy. When a religion starts to be untouchable, higher than the liberty of speech/criticize/mock or even insult, that's when you start to have problems in your country. And yes normal people differenciate easily between the religion and the people behind.

Doesnt mean you need to like the message, but everybody has the right to deliver this message without being harassed or more.

Yes far right in France too is centered on islam and only islam, and it's hard to not see racist intent behind. But the negative view of islam and any other religion including christianity, in France, is FAR from coming from the far right or having racist intents.

Thats why we have so many comics and critics that don't hesitate to speak , mock , or satire religion, charlie hebdo being only the sadly famous one of many.

A mole in the Vatican. The pope: "it changes me of the choirboys".

Thing is today in France you don't recieve death threats when you ridicule or insult christianity ( and we clearly , clearly do) , you don't have journalists killed when they do a satire of jesus, or mixing pedophile stories and the vatican...

But it clearly happens when you touch islam, and this is what really singles it out in France today, not racism. When we have death threats , journalists killed, terrorist attacks and 25% of muslims in France that thinks that chariah law should be higher than the law of the country, not even speaking about journalists/comics, it's not hard to single out a religious extremist current that grows in the country.

Christianity is being mocked and ridiculed at least as much as islam, and as violently. A couple of days before this 16 year old girl story i was listening to a radio comic on one of the main radio channel of France ridiculing jesus on a song that would have shocked half of resetera people it seems. and its something else than a tweet from a harassed 16yo girl lost on internet.

So resetera should stop trying to concentrate on finding if it's racist or not and maybe we should discuss about the real problem here : why there is thousands of death threats when you touch a religion, and why some people think it's normal.

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Religious extremists should definitely be called out, no matter the context. I don't think anyone is implying otherwise. I'm sure many Muslims would even agree with you on this. The Muslims I've known throughout my life have all hated religious extremists, particularly as they simply make their own lives harder (they get lumped in with them). And I definitely did not imply that Islam should be above reproach - just read all of my posts in this thread. I've even said that religion should be criticised harshly at times too, if it's necessary. I also agree with people's right to blaspheme. I'm not disagreeing with any of that.

The discussion that's taking place here is how that criticism should be conveyed in countries where people from said religion are an oppressed minority. Because if you're careless and generalise, that has a very real and direct impact on the safety of said oppressed minority. So as you can see, there can be more than one "real" problem at a time, so it's reductive to treat it like it's as simple as that. Like I said, the issue that keeps coming up in this thread is people are treating it like a black and white issue when it's a lot more nuanced than that. That's always going to be the case when you have intersecting issues involving various marginalised groups. And yes, as someone from the UK, I'm aware of the difference in how religion is perceived compared to say, America.

 

[ty_hot]

Can 10 thousand people go to a protest and scream Islam is the religion of hate?

I don't think so.

 

[Salty_Josh]

I mean you accusing me of being a racist.

funny how you're more then willing to throw LGBT community under the bus because she said Islam is hateful.

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I didn't accuse you of being annything. I don't know you. I said she responded to homophobic comments by being racist. I haven't thrown anyone under the bus so relax. You don't know me

 

[Sloth Guevara]

None is stopping you from criticizing something you find problematic.

I am asking that you remember that the group you are criticizing IS in a minority state in countries across the west.
That this minority is the target of discrimination and outright bigotry.
I'm asking you to remember how Muslims have been portrayed in the media and of the imperialism done to this day by western countries.
I've given examples Of how one can criticize with out being called for dogwistles.

 

[jaxom]

The discussion that's taking place here is how that criticism should be conveyed in countries where people from said religion are an oppressed minority. Because if you're careless and generalise, that has a very real and direct impact on the safety of said oppressed minority.

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Sorry but we are speaking about France here ? to be sure. Because to say that muslims are an oppressed minority that can be afraid for it's safety is slightly , like trump slightly , exagerated.

The ones that are really a minority afraid for their safety today are the ones saying anything bad, insulting or critisizing islam. And this case is just the newest example of it.

Yes there is racism in France from part of the population , like in a lot of countries, nobody will deny that, but come on , let's not exagerate on the superlatives or mixing up the story , she attacked a religion, thousands attacked a person.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Sorry but we are speaking about France here ? to be sure. Because to say that muslims are an oppressed minority that can be afraid for it's safety is slightly , like trump slightly , exagerated.

The ones that are really a minority afraid for their safety today are the ones saying anything bad about islam.

Yes there is racism in France from part of the population , like in a lot of countries, nobody will deny that, but come on , let's not exagerate on the superlatives.

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This is outrageous and insulting and textbook Islamophobia.

 

[NoName999]

Some Yahoo calls the entire religion of Islam hateful

ERA: OMG! You can't even constructively criticize Islam anymore!

 

[Vetinari]

To give a bit a perspective, the French governement published the figures regarding hate crimes against the main religions in France

https://www.francetvinfo.fr/societe...ent-les-chiffres-du-gouvernement_3803085.html

Attacks against christians : 1052
Attacks against Jews: 687
Attacks against Muslims: 154

Even in France, not many people know that in 2019, almost every three days there was an attack against a church. A few days before the infamous video, a "comedian" on one of France's most popular radio programe performed a song about Jesus being gay that was really vulgar, borderline homophobic and whose sole purpose was to outrage christians.

And yet, no christian is issuing death threats and no one gives a damn about the attacks against christians.

 

[Deleted member 5127]

Some Yahoo calls the entire religion of Islam hateful

ERA: OMG! You can't even constructively criticize Islam anymore!

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A 16 year old lesbian girl who was called a dirty lesbian and shit and is likely struggling with her sexuality at that age is some yahoo?

Good going on that handwaving away of homophobia.

 

[Delphine]

To give a bit a perspective, the French governement published the figures regarding hate crimes against the main religions in France

https://www.francetvinfo.fr/societe...ent-les-chiffres-du-gouvernement_3803085.html

Attacks against christians : 1052
Attacks against Jews: 687
Attacks against Muslims: 154

Even in France, not many people know that in 2019, almost every three days there was an attack against a church. A few days before the infamous video, a "comedian" on one of France's most popular radio programe performed a song about Jesus being gay that was really vulgar, borderline homophobic and whose sole purpose was to outrage christians.

And yet, no christian is issuing death threats and no one gives a damn about the attacks against christians.

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These numbers are skewed though, aren't they? They seem shocking when you read them at face value, but when you dig deeper, it's pretty much ridiculous how they say nothing at all.

How many "Attacks against Christians" are actually "an old and barely used church being forced open and having some its objects stolen while nobody was in it" or "local teens have nothing to do and were passing time in a cemetery in the dumbest ways"? How many are "people downright attacking Christians in the streets, insulting them, making them feel less than, discriminating them in public, blocking them access to jobs and a home"? Hum? I'd like to know. Because the latter is very much what's happening to Muslim people in this country, overwhelmingly.

Also, statistically, knowing there's a church in every little insignificant town of France (my parents live in a town of 150 people max lost in the middle of nowhere, and even they have their designated church), how those "attacks against a church" (interesting semantics, as if a church is a person somewhat? Most of those aren't even remotely close of deserving the use of the word "attack" anyway) are much, much more likely to happen, compared to attacks on mosques which are way fewer in numbers on French soil? Keep things scaled, if you're gonna compare numbers, let's make it "n° of attacks divided by the n° of places of cult", and then we'll maybe have numbers worth talking about.

It always baffles me to see my fellow French having such a blind-spot when it comes down to Islamophobia in our country. When it comes down to the systemic oppression they're facing in our society, and trying to equate it to Christians who face absolutely NO systemic oppression in the slightest, since the ones in power are mostly Christian, Christian-leaning or from Christian descent. It's ridiculous, truly, because this is Le Pen level of garbage, and we should know better than that already.

This is why I don't enjoy nor support Charlie Hebdo's way of doing things, never have, and never will. They still struggle to make the difference between punching up, and punching down, and they respond in the exact same way regardless of who or what they're making fun of, regardless of context, regardless of systemic structures of power. This isn't clever in the slightest, this is dangerous and irresponsible. It is feeding into harmful stereotypes that are impacting an already marginalized and fragile minority. This isn't helping anybody but the status quo in place (and the status quo is very much white and from Christian descent -even if not Christian anymore), this isn't humane nor kind. This is just vile.

 

[Deleted member 48897]

Even in France, not many people know that in 2019, almost every three days there was an attack against a church. A few days before the infamous video, a "comedian" on one of France's most popular radio programe performed a song about Jesus being gay that was really vulgar, borderline homophobic and whose sole purpose was to outrage christians.

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I don't understand and want to echo what Delphine is saying here: are you saying this counts as one of the attacks against Christians in that count?

 

[Horp]

Some Yahoo calls the entire religion of Islam hateful

ERA: OMG! You can't even constructively criticize Islam anymore!

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What even is this?

 

[CharlieTwoZero]

I didn't accuse you of being annything. I don't know you. I said she responded to homophobic comments by being racist. I haven't thrown anyone under the bus so relax. You don't know me

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Do you know what, I'll hold my hands up I completely misread what you put before. But I do not agree that she used racism as a retort to her being called a dirty lesbian.

 

[Plum]

Your post kinda reminds me of this comic. I really don't believe anyone can be bullied into being part of the far right, especially LGBTQ people. Having seen her talk about reverse racism in the original video that started all of this, my guess is she was already well on her way to join them anyways.

*DISCLAIMER* I know I have to write it because some of you will just see this comic and act all shocked I would compare her to a skinhead. I am not. Please take your time to read my post before quoting me.

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That disclaimer's necessary inclusion should maybe have been a hint that your post wasn't that good of an idea in the first place. It completely ignores any potential context and really just comes across as you defending the effects of further attacks against her because, according to you, she's already halfway to becoming a Nazi anyway.

 

[Dekuman]

The Abrahamic religions are very much rooted in a time and place and contain pretty reprehensible tenets. Because human society has moved on.

There should not be a free speech debate given the context of the situation.

 

[Kurdel]

That disclaimer's necessary inclusion should maybe have been a hint that your post wasn't that good of an idea in the first place. It completely ignores any potential context and really just comes across as you defending the effects of further attacks against her because, according to you, she's already halfway to becoming a Nazi anyway.

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This is a hell of a take lol

Tell me what "potential context" even means?

You really think that someone can be bullied into going to the far-right?

The Abrahamic religions are very much rooted in a time and place and contain pretty reprehensible tenets. Because human society has moved on.

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"Human society" is still overwhelmingly religious.

 

[Plum]

This is a hell of a take lol

Tell me what "potential context" even means?

You really think that someone can be bullied into going to the far-right?

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The "potential context," of her being a 16 year old lesbian who's faced death threats, harassment and doxing from wide swathes of people. She isn't a privileged white guy who only sees pushbacks due to what he chooses to do so even with that disclaimer the dismissal-by-comic just makes very, very little sense in this situation.

And your framing it as being "bullied into going to the far-right," is your framing alone; neither me nor the other posted said that would be the case. What is the case is that further alienating someone who's been placed in a vulnerable situation by others is potentially not the best of ideas when there are groups out there that are willing and ready to take advantage of that alienation. Again, she's a 16 year old, she's at a prime age for radicalisation and if all she sees on one side are people saying that she's "halfway to becoming a Nazi," in context of the situation she's in then that is going to make the other side look better even if said side is many, many times shittier in reality.

 

[Firefox]

Edit: My comment below was based on the replies I was reading for many of the early pages. Glad to see many users also pointing out the systemic issues which result in hatred towards Muslims and other immigrant groups in France.

__________________________________________________________________

She should not be facing threats nor should she ever feel unsafe.

Disappointed by the many comments here however for defending racism:

https://www.thelocal.fr/20200205/wh...a-and-what-does-it-say-about-france-and-islam

" She duly informed those watching that she was a lesbian and that "blacks and Arabs" were not her type.


Cue a stream of insults and threats, followed by her now infamous response, spoken directly to camera.


"The Koran is a religion of hatred, there is only hatred in it. Islam is shit, your religion is shit," she said, describing in lewd terms what she would do to "your god"."

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Most of the comments here seem to have no sympathy for the marginalization / racism Muslims in France face for their race. This is not about the right to "criticize religion" it's about decades of systemic racism towards immigrants (large percentage Muslim) and laws to suppress them.

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/23/france-islamophobia-islam-french-muslims-terrorism/

 

[Crimsonskies]

This is a hell of a take lol

Tell me what "potential context" even means?

You really think that someone can be bullied into going to the far-right?

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I think that bullied and ostracized people can embrace radical ideologies far easier we have seen this time and time again.

Take an angry bullied teenager with no friends offer him to be a part of group and direct his anger towards something else.

It's not just the far right but most extremist groups who recruit this way.

 

[Deleted member 48897]

That disclaimer's necessary inclusion should maybe have been a hint that your post wasn't that good of an idea in the first place. It completely ignores any potential context and really just comes across as you defending the effects of further attacks against her because, according to you, she's already halfway to becoming a Nazi anyway.

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The argument is not "she's a Nazi". The argument is that in that video from before this exchange blew up, she seems to think you can be racist against fucking France. France!! She was already playing around with dipshit ideas before she became a useful pawn for the people in government there who want to legislate Muslims out of existence.

 

[wandering]

I think that bullied and ostracized people can embrace radical ideologies far easier we have seen this time and time again.

Take an angry bullied teenager with no friends offer him to be a part of group and direct his anger towards something else.

It's not just the far right but most extremist groups who recruit this way.

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Including Islamist extremist groups who exploit the bigotry that Muslims face in European countries. Which is why the conversation needs more nuance than simply hand waving away Islamophobia.

 

[Plum]

She should not be facing threats nor should she ever feel unsafe.

Disappointed in ERA however for defending racism:

https://www.thelocal.fr/20200205/wh...a-and-what-does-it-say-about-france-and-islam

ERA seems to have no sympathy for the marginalization / racism Muslims in France face for their race. This is not about the right to "criticize religion" it's about decades of systemic racism towards immigrants (large percentage Muslim) and laws to suppress them.

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Who here is defending those comments beside the few who have already (and rightly) received bans? They're shitty comments and, since she's a16 year old who's got lots of time to grow as a person, it would be great if we could educate and help her move past them (instead of, you know, writing her off as a lost-caused who is halfway to Naziism). Defending the girl and her right to react to a completely uncalled for attack on her person (and no, nothing excuses calling someone a "dirty lesbian.) with something that is misjudged is not defending those comments.

The argument is not "she's a Nazi". The argument is that in that video from before this exchange blew up, she seems to think you can be racist against fucking France. France!!

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I know, that's why I didn't say that. I was instead pointing out how Kurdel literally said she was "well on her way to becoming a Nazi."

my guess is she was already well on her way to join them anyways.

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[Kurdel]

I know, that's why I didn't say that. I was instead pointing out how Kurdel literally said she was "well on her way to becoming a Nazi."

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If you took the time to read my very simple post, you would have seen I was talking about the far right, not literal fucking nazis lol

That disclaimer was for people like you after all, and all you did was flip out and barely read it, and thought I was calling her a nazi.

 

[Crimsonskies]

Including Islamist extremist groups who exploit the bigotry that Muslims face in European countries. Which is why the conversation needs more nuance than simply hand waving away Islamophobia.

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Yep completely agree

 

[Plum]

If you took the time to read my very simple post, you would have seen I was talking about the far right, not literal fucking nazis lol

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So do you disagree when people call Trump the "Nazi in chief" and his regime "fascism"? Or with comics like the one you posted which take arguments almost entirely used in context of the alt-right and apply them to Nazism? Do you think that someone has to literally be a Nazi for them to be called a "Nazi"?

If not then this is an incredibly pedantic point to make as we both know what yours and my posts mean. People refer to the alt-right as "nazis" all the time yet suddenly I have to consider the distinction when it's being used to criticise a point you made.

Also why not reply to my original post instead of honing in on a small detail of a post that wasn't even directed at you?

 

[Kurdel]

So do you disagree when people call Trump the "Nazi in chief" and his regime "fascism"? Or with comics like the one you posted which take arguments almost entirely used in context of the alt-right and apply them to Nazism? Do you think that someone has to literally be a Nazi for them to be called a "Nazi"?

If not then this is an incredibly pedantic point to make as we both know what yours and my posts mean.

Also why not reply to my original post instead of honing in on a small detail of a post that wasn't even directed at you?

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I said my own personal opinion, I am sorry but I do not owe you anything and really don,t want to engage in a conversation that starts off with someone completely misreading me, , feel free to disagree with me vis a vis bullying and leading to the far right and havea great day

 

[Plum]

I said my own personal opinion, I am sorry but I do not owe you anything and really don,t want to engage in a conversation that starts off with someone completely misreading me, , feel free to disagree with me vis a vis bullying and leading to the far right and havea great day

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How did I misread you? Pedantry about whether you were referring to "Nazis" or "Nazis in Disguise" doesn't refer to any fundamental misreading of what you said. So either which way you still literally said that she's "well on her way to the far-right," and you've yet to do anything to refute that.

 

[tulpa]

I would recommend not to generalize your view of a religion simply based on your view of the members of that religion that you have encountered in your area.

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yeah again you should carefully read what I said because if this is a sentence you're using to respond you completely missed the point

I grew up in Turkey, 99% muslim country, and bigotry towards LGBT people there is extreme.

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and I grew up in the evangelical Deep South of the US, it's overwhelmingly Christian, and bigotry towards LGBT people is extreme. my entire point is that I'm not going to generalize the entire religion of Christianity based on my personal experiences and the same rule applies to other religions

 

[N.Domixis]

All religions suck and make the world a terrible place. I believe religion is the cause for most of the discrimination we see. But I don't mind being friends with a religious person as long as they keep their ideas to themselves and dont start pushing it on me.

 

[RamsesGod43]

Here in Québec we had a ton of racists and right wingers poorly make this argument aswell when defending law 21, didn't expect to see it here on Era.

Thinking racism only exists in terms skin color or ethnicity isn't an accurate description of what racism is, or how it affects groups of people.



Anti-Muslism prejudice is at an all time high everywhere in the west, I recognize this argument for what it is.

Getting hate aimed at you isn't an excuse to say vile shit about an entire religion, even less to go on national television to do so. The Right always use LGBTQ people as props to shit on Islam, seeing this girl go on the news must have made them so fucking hard.



No I'm not? Can you quote me the part I am misreading? her quote is pretty clear on this

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Yes, Anti-Islam is at an all time high in the west. Also, being Anti- Christian in the Middle East is at an all time high as well. The western media doesnt report that and muslims in the west don't criticize those governments or protest that. Middle Eastern governments slaughter Christians indiscriminately. The West doesnt do that to Muslim immigrants.

My point is discrimination against all religions is at an all time high. It shouldn't be. Anti-semitism is also at an all time high.

That doesnt mean religion cannot be criticized and should be when required. Whether Christians, Muslims, Jews , Hindus, Buddhists step put of line with society, they should be called out.

 

[Dekuman]

"Human society" is still overwhelmingly religious.

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And? You can be religious and accept the norms of modern society.

 

[Kurdel]

And? You can be religious and accept the norms of modern society.

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Whose modern society? You mean G7 countries in the west?

 

[Dekuman]

Whose modern society? You mean G7 countries in the west?

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Sure, the girl lives in france right? France is in the west and in the G7.

 

[Deleted member 5127]

yeah again you should carefully read what I said because if this is a sentence you're using to respond you completely missed the point

and I grew up in the evangelical Deep South of the US, it's overwhelmingly Christian, and bigotry towards LGBT people is extreme. my entire point is that I'm not going to generalize the entire religion of Christianity based on my personal experiences and the same rule applies to other religions

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You should check out the rights gay people have in Islamic countries, because people like us get death sentences for their sexuality.

 

[Horp]

and I grew up in the evangelical Deep South of the US, it's overwhelmingly Christian, and bigotry towards LGBT people is extreme. my entire point is that I'm not going to generalize the entire religion of Christianity based on my personal experiences and the same rule applies to other religions

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You don't have to rely on your personal experiences. You can look at:
1. The texts in the book that christians view as gods word.
2. The history of the religion
3. The literal organisation in charge; both in the vatican, in the US at large, and then finally the priests etc of most local institutions.
All above, with very few exceptions (if any), are worthy of extensive criticism regarding the view on homosexuality, and much, much more.

A question for you: do you agree with the above?

Finally, this is why christianity as a religion is worthy of criticism, but not individuals that identify as christian.

 

[Sloth Guevara]

You should check out the rights gay people have in Islamic countries, because people like us get death sentences for their sexuality.

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Still, none is defending that many countries are homophobic. People ARE saying that if you say "you can't be racist against Muslims cause they aren't a race" is usually and most often said by racists.
Btw I never got an answer. Do you think you can't be racist towards Muslims cause of they aren't a race?

 

[Sloth Guevara]

You don't have to rely on your personal experiences. You can look at:
1. The texts in the book that christians view as gods word.
2. The history of the religion
3. The literal organisation in charge; both in the vatican, in the US at large, and then finally the priests etc of most local institutions.
All above, with very few exceptions (if any), are worthy of extensive criticism regarding the view on homosexuality, and much, much more.

A question for you: do you agree with the above?

Finally, this is why christianity as a religion is worthy of criticism, but not individuals that identify as christian.

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Btw remember you staning for a Swedish politician?

She has a really bad track record "https://www.google.se/amp/s/motargument.se/2016/05/24/du-forbrukade-all-trovardighet-amineh/amp/“

 

[Carl2291]

Has there been any update on the girls safety?

 

[Horp]

Btw remember you staning for a Swedish politician?

She has a really bad track record "https://www.google.se/amp/s/motargument.se/2016/05/24/du-forbrukade-all-trovardighet-amineh/amp/“

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She indeed has.
Doesn't exonorate the Left-party's problematic relationship with parts of Islam in relation to LBTQ and other Human rights, though.

edit:
Also if you qoute me, I think it's only fair to give some response to the content in the post you are qouting, even if the post wasn't directed to you.

 

[Crawling Mushroom]

The girl should have known better with her wording and what it might stir up.

BUT... It's disgusting that her words end with her receiving death threats and for people to ask her being raped. And I think this is the biggest issue.