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Aug 14, 2018
76
Is a Muslim atheist such a crazy idea, though?

Yes. If you're an atheist you are by definition no longer a believer of a specific religion. Muslims are people who believe in the religion Islam, and if you renounce Islam you can no longer be considered muslim. The whole concept is just as crazy as a catholic atheist or a lutheran atheist. Religion is not ethnicity.
 

Quantza

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
641
Many people are talking about individual points and not really discussing how ideology relates to religion.

Ideology: "A set of doctrines or beliefs that are shared by the members of a social group or that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system."
Religion: "relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity; a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith".

For example, would the Quran be considered ideology, and Islam a religion based on this ideology?
Muslims interpret the Quran differently. Maybe you could say they are following different forms of Islam. So, are they all following the same religion?

By the way, I'm not implying any answer, just want to know what others think.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
Imagine telling LGBT people who are persecuted and oppressed by religion to not be afraid of it.
please don't weaponize the LGBT community i am a part of to go after people's faith

honestly the only religion i've been persecuted by as a queer person is Christianity. the muslims i have known have been nothing but respectful and supportive whereas the persecution by evangelical christians has been very intense and cruel and unpleasant but I don't use it to justify some misguided campaign against Christianity. i actually think Christianity has a lot of poetry and wisdom and knowledge to contribute to culture, same with many many other religions and people with a paper-thin understanding of these religions love cherrypicking statistics and instances of specific hateful religious people to generalize against an entire religion
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
Have people never even spoke to atheist/agnostic people from Muslim ethnicities?

People do understand the simple concept of them identifying as Muslim because that's how most people in western countries see brown people? And western countries have a hell of record when it comes to persecuting, oppressing, and genociding brown people over the last few decades.

That in turn doesn't mean people shouldn't be critical of the Muslims who are bigoted. Just bigotry from one group doesn't excuse bigotry from another.
 

Deleted member 5127

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,584
please don't weaponize the LGBT community i am a part of to go after people's faith

honestly the only religion i've been persecuted by as a queer person is Christianity. the muslims i have known have been nothing but respectful and supportive whereas the persecution by evangelical christians has been very intense and cruel and unpleasant but I don't use it to justify some misguided campaign against Christianity. i actually think Christianity has a lot of poetry and wisdom and knowledge to contribute to culture, same with many many other religions and people with a paper-thin understanding of these religions love cherrypicking statistics and instances of specific hateful religious people to generalize against an entire religion

I'm gay and my experiences are just as valid as yours. I have experienced homophobia from Christianity as wel as Islam. I live in the Netherlands and I was unlucky enough to be born in a pretty Christian family. Outside of that most people here are secular or atheist, but I've had several instances where Muslim people were homophobic to me, I've experienced more homophobia from Islam. And I'm not blind at what Islam is doing world wide and especially in the middle east when it comes to LGBT.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
I'm gay and my experiences are just as valid as yours. I have experienced homophobia from Christianity as wel as Islam. I live in the Netherlands and I was unlucky enough to be born in a pretty Christian family. Outside of that most people here are secular or atheist, but I've had several instances where Muslim people were homophobic to me, I've experienced more homophobia from Islam. And I'm not blind at what Islam is doing world wide and especially in the middle east when it comes to LGBT.
i think you sort of missed the point. i said that i've experienced a lot of bigotry and cruelty from Christians but that doesn't actually make me want to attack and go after their faith and say that Christianity is the fount of bigotry. there is a lot of beauty and poetry and knowledge to be gained from Christianity and many other religious traditions and we only further alienate religious communities with this very one-dimensional understanding of religion that just paints it as some vortex of hate and fails to see the depth and nuance of different religions and the variety of social factors that cause bigotry. i've known atheists who are homophobic, i don't think the link between religious practice and bigotry is as clear cut as people in this thread make it seem. i don't think we should use our experiences as the LGBT community to target faith communities. religion will always exist, faith communities will always be a presence we have to coexist alongside and we we should live together the best we can, these sort of sweeping generalizations about different faiths don't really help move anything forward
 

Sloth Guevara

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,333
I'm aware of US Muslims being more Liberal than in other parts of the world and that's good, but I'm also aware of people(loads of LGBT people too) not speaking up because they're afraid of being labelled racist or Islamophobe simply because they have issues with how LGBT is handled within Islam. And people who knee-jerk into that either don't comprehend how serious and widespread the LGBT issue is or deep down they just care about being perceived as woke and nothing else.

This thread is yet another showing of how this discussion isn't possible, we're in a thread about a teenage girl being called a dirty lesbian and people still bring in ''far right this, alt right that, alt accounts this''.

It ain't rocket science to differentiate between people who are racist and people who merely want to criticise the religion but the latter get fucked over because people don't think critically and get played by the racists who abuse the argument.


Im not gonna stand here and defend homophobia.
But I'm also not gonna stand here and defend the "it can't be racist cause they aren't a race shtick".

Some people limping all Muslims in one group like you do is a issue.
Ignoring broader contexts around issues faced by Muslims is bad.
 

Vetinari

Banned
Oct 31, 2019
64
I really don't understand the accusation of racism.
Religion is not a race.
Saying that critizing Islam is racist is equaling being muslim with a race and therefore racist.

Plus, she said that "islam is a shitty religion".
It might be vulgar, offensive, unconsiderate but it's the same thing as saying christianity is a shitty religion or republicanism is shitty politics
If this is not acceptable that means no religion or no belief system can be criticized or insulted and we roll back all the gains from the Enlightnement period.

Plus it is frightening that some rude remarks by some idiot teenager on the Internet equals a death sentence in 2020 France.
She can't get back to school and is under police protection.
 

Deleted member 5127

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,584
Im not gonna stand here and defend homophobia.
But I'm also not gonna stand here and defend the "it can't be racist cause they aren't a race shtick".

Some people limping all Muslims in one group like you do is a issue.
Ignoring broader contexts around issues faced by Muslims is bad.

That's the whole point tho, people like you jumping to conclusions and claiming I'm lumping everyone into one group because I'm critical of the religion.

News flash, I'm very well aware of, and have met Muslims who are liberal and don't have issues with LGBT.

Never said it can't be racist, I've said said several times by now that it's being misused by racist. But you're likely not going to actually think about what I'm saying.

People like you are played by those racist.
 

Zaro

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,400
In the end we should denonce people that are homophobe, racist, etc... But not generalize around their religion.

I think religion don't help because of what is written in THE BOOK, this give weapon to heinous people, specially religion leader, like heinous politicians.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,900
Calling out and shaming bad practices in all faiths is a good thing. The hope is that the offenders work to reform these things and the religions improve. Protecting religions from criticism is very dangerous. I do understand the concern over racism. That is why when making such charges you have to be considerate and deliberate in what you are angry about and acknowledge that hate is a part of all faiths not just Islam.

I wouldn't even consider myself an atheist but I despise organized religion. Ancient control mechanisms to divide and conquer that we all need to be very cynical of.
 

Sloth Guevara

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,333
That's the whole point tho, people like you jumping to conclusions and claiming I'm lumping everyone into one group because I'm critical of the religion.

News flash, I'm very well aware of, and have met Muslims who are liberal and don't have issues with LGBT.

Never said it can't be racist, I've said said several times by now that it's being misused by racist. But you're likely not going to actually think about what I'm saying.

People like you are played by those racist.

I remember you from the old place.
Anything you say regarding Islam and bigotry is gonna get som major side eye from me.

You have written "is Islam pro LGBT" and thus you ARE lumping them together.

If you are gonna criticize then do so but don't hide behind using that it can't be racist BS.
 

Sloth Guevara

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,333
They're coming in droves now that they've realized how lax the moderation is. I know ERA ain't perfect but god damn I've never seen so many dog-whistles go unchecked.

I've had issues with this ever since a mod supported the ideas and policies targeting Muslim majority communities in Denmark.
But this forum is worker regarding US related issues.
But it is very bad in regards to Europe centric racism.
 

Deleted member 5127

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,584
I remember you from the old place.
Anything you say regarding Islam and bigotry is gonna get som major side eye from me.

You have written "is Islam pro LGBT" and thus you ARE lumping them together.

If you are gonna criticize then do so but don't hide behind using that it can't be racist BS.

Dude I just told you I never said it can't be racist, what the hell?

Oh really, what was my username back then?
 

HazySaiyan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,338
West Yorkshire, UK
I really don't understand the accusation of racism.
Religion is not a race.
Saying that critizing Islam is racist is equaling being muslim with a race and therefore racist.
People aren't saying that, what people ARE saying is that "Islam isn't a race" is often used as a dogwhistle to justify bigotry against people from the Middle East, and it's so often used as such that it's a little hard to take in good faith. What is so hard to understand?
 

Sloth Guevara

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,333
Of course you're not lol.

I know, and people like you are going to continue making it difficult for LGBT people to speak up. That was my whole point in this thread. This handwaving of homophobia is disgusting.


Miss me with that bullshit.

Please explain where I've handwaved homophobia?
At least I have the capability to recognize the harm of homophobia and islamophobia and how fuckers weaponize that talking point to pink wash their bigotry.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,237
Religion is never the problem. It's always the people that interpret it and take action that are the threat. But in an era of regular mass killings I find myself seriously distrusting any kind of dogmatic ideologies, especially ones that make proclamations over justifiable torture and murder. Sure, it says not to do a thing but these things are subject to subjective interpretation and an individual or group can easily convince themselves that it gives them the go-ahead to commit atrocities.
 

Deleted member 5127

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,584
Miss me with that bullshit.

Please explain where I've handwaved homophobia?
At least I have the capability to recognize the harm of homophobia and islamophobia and how fuckers weaponize that talking point to pink wash their bigotry.

It's not bs.

I'll do that when you explain where I've said racist things and you actually address the things I'm saying instead of the things you think I'm saying. Otherwise no reason for me to waste time as you're putting words and opinions in my mouth.
 

Sloth Guevara

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,333
It's not bs.

I'll do that when you explain where I've said racist things and you actually address the things I'm saying instead of the things you think I'm saying. Otherwise no reason for me to waste time as you're putting words and opinions in my mouth.

Ok.
Is the phrase "you can't be racist to Muslims, cause there aren't a race" true or not?
 

Leveean

Member
Nov 9, 2017
1,093
So many people are struggling to deal with the truth that Islam is not a race and you cannot be racist towards it, just because the other political side agrees with it. American politics has poisoned your minds.
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
So many people are struggling to deal with the truth that Islam is not a race and you cannot be racist towards it, just because the other political side agrees with it. American politics has poisoned your minds.

It's true that Islam isn't a race, but you can be racist against Muslims. And Islamophobia is often motivated by racism and xenophobia. I think people are confusing several different arguments here and talking past each other.

And yes, whilst some phrases that are dogwhistles can sometimes be used innocently, if you're aware that it is a dogwhistle, you should be conscious of that. There are much better and more effective ways to make your argument instead of digging your heels in.
 

Leveean

Member
Nov 9, 2017
1,093
It's true that Islam isn't a race, but you can be racist against Muslims. And Islamophobia is often motivated by racism and xenophobia. I think people are confusing several different arguments here and talking past each other.

And yes, whilst some phrases that are dogwhistles can sometimes be used innocently, if you're aware that it is a dogwhistle, you should be conscious of that. There are much better and more effective ways to make your argument instead of digging your heels in.
Of course you can be racist to muslims (or more specifically non whites who happen to be muslims), and religion can be used as an excuse to do it. I don't think anyone in this thread disagrees with that.
 

nitewulf

Member
Nov 29, 2017
7,204
Is a Muslim atheist such a crazy idea, though? In a world where there is significant migration across continents and rabid racism, religion is no longer a belief, but something that closely correlates with identity and ethnicity. As the prime example of a persecuted religion, Judaism has long accepted the idea of an Atheist Jew, someone who feels the connection to the culture but does not necessarily believe the religious dogma. I don't see how it should be different with Islam. You cannot just expect people to assimilate a Western identity as the dogma becomes less important in their lives.
Of course not. I am, to an extent. Taken literally, you can't, ie, you are either muslim, or not. But most people pick and choose what to follow, even in deeply religious countries everyone drinks alcohol, has sex, but it's all "hush hush", and oddly pot smoking is socially very accepted where I originally come from (Bangladesh). That's the problem with assuming what's a proper muslim. Southern Thailand is deeply muslim (I don't want to use the word "islamic" because it seems to have a negative connotation these days), yet extremely gay friendly. How does that fit in with the homophobic idea of islam, for instance?

I am fully atheist and don't believe in god to begin with and culturally I consider myself bengali, not muslim. But most orthodox folks would consider themselves muslims first. That's the difference.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
Again people need to understand the framing of this issue is not that we are getting on an 18-year-old's case for being shitty in public. We are getting on France's case for taking it as a cause celebre that requires debate on what the law should be, that is it's pretty transparently there to manufacture colonialism.

The thing is, if religions are mere ideologies, then so are nation-states. This cuts both ways.
 

Johnny Blaze

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
4,169
DE
Again people need to understand the framing of this issue is not that we are getting on an 18-year-old's case for being shitty in public. We are getting on France's case for taking it as a cause celebre that requires debate on what the law should be, that is it's pretty transparently there to manufacture colonialism.

The thing is, if religions are mere ideologies, then so are nation-states. This cuts both ways.
Only if white christian weterners approve tho. The pinnacle of humanity.
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
Of course you can be racist to muslims (or more specifically non whites who happen to be muslims), and religion can be used as an excuse to do it. I don't think anyone in this thread disagrees with that.

Not just non-white Muslims, but Muslims in general, and brown people who could be mistaken for Muslim by ignorant racists. Islamophobia can sometimes just be another form of racism against Middle Easterners and South Asians (and people who look like them). And hatred towards Islam is not always rooted in disagreements with the teachings, but rather because Muslims are an 'other' and a threat to their 'culture'. You'll also find plenty of Islamophobes who either follow or are fine with the other Abrahamic faiths, despite their holy scriptures having equally problematic stuff.

But yes, that's where the pushback against the "Islam isn't a race" argument comes from. Because Islamophobes use it as an excuse to mask their hatred against Muslims specifically. Because the implication is usually "Islam isn't a race, therefore I cannot be a racist when I decide to incite hatred against Muslims, I'm just attacking the religion, you see." There's a big difference between thoughtful and responsible critique and fear-mongering, generalising etc. The latter hurts innocent Muslims who are a persecuted minority in many parts of the world, despite Islam being the second largest religion overall.

I think a big issue that I see recurring in this thread is that people look at this from a black and white perspective, or look at things literally/simplistically (like the argument you made in your initial post). While technically true that Islam isn't a religion, it's ignoring the context in which this phrase is commonly used, and why people take issue with it. On the other hand, I don't think the solution is to never criticise Islam as a religion either, as there does need to be pressure for it to modernise and become more progressive, even in secular nations. I have personal experience with this, and see what this lack of progress does in my own community.

Which kind of goes back to what I mentioned at the end of my first paragraph. In the context of countries where Muslims are a minority, I feel the most responsible way to critique it is speaking about all of the religions that have these issues, including Christianity. Singling out Islam just bears the risk of making Muslims out to be this evil and barbaric group of people, even though there are plenty of Muslims who follow a progressive and inclusive interpretation of Islam, and there are many non-Muslim majority countries that have similar issues.

TLDR: There's a lot to criticise in the Quran and prophetic sayings, but there are responsible ways to do that without endangering marginalised Muslims.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
Yes. If you're an atheist you are by definition no longer a believer of a specific religion. Muslims are people who believe in the religion Islam, and if you renounce Islam you can no longer be considered muslim. The whole concept is just as crazy as a catholic atheist or a lutheran atheist. Religion is not ethnicity.


Possibly selection bias, but most of the Jewish folks I know including my ex-gf, are absolutely atheists. Their Jewishness to them is a matter of cultural traditions, identity and even race and ethnicity - but the idea of god or creation or supernatural power is silly to them. There ARE such people in every faith, who adhere to traditions through necessity, through politeness, genuine enthusiasm, love even. They may even believe in every tenet and rule of the faith. But don't believe in the underlying supernatural elements.

Judaism in the west isn't just tolerant of that - it encourages it partly to augment its populations and power base but the religion has been forgiving of dissent via scholarship for millennia. Heck, Christians are a sect of Judaism that was politely tolerated or accepted at one point.

It's far from unusual and the argument that by holding that internal position of "nah, there's no magic or miracles or god" or doubts thereof means you're "not" Muslim or any other religion, is pure semantics anyway. You'd literally have to prove your god existed in order to present an identity to the entire world that was 100% defensible as a "true" anything. Most people on Earth who are religious, believe that other religions are either wholly or partially false. So none of the people they think about are "true Christians" for example, because the underlying logic is fraudulent. They are therefore "dedicated and admirable but delusional believers" or "zealous credulous suckers" or whatever position you want to take.

I'm a "white anglo saxon protestant" by many definitions - but technically I'm catholic (never practicing and only believed in the bits that might save me from Vampires or Pazuzu) and factually not genetically all that Anglo Saxon either.
 

NoName999

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,906
So many people are struggling to deal with the truth that Islam is not a race and you cannot be racist towards it, just because the other political side agrees with it. American politics has poisoned your minds.

You say ignoring the fact that Sikhs are also being targeted for Islamphobic hate crimes.
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
Possibly selection bias, but most of the Jewish folks I know including my ex-gf, are absolutely atheists. Their Jewishness to them is a matter of cultural traditions, identity and even race and ethnicity - but the idea of god or creation or supernatural power is silly to them. There ARE such people in every faith, who adhere to traditions through necessity, through politeness, genuine enthusiasm, love even. They may even believe in every tenet and rule of the faith. But don't believe in the underlying supernatural elements.

Judaism in the west isn't just tolerant of that - it encourages it partly to augment its populations and power base but the religion has been forgiving of dissent via scholarship for millennia. Heck, Christians are a sect of Judaism that was politely tolerated or accepted at one point.

It's far from unusual and the argument that by holding that internal position of "nah, there's no magic or miracles or god" or doubts thereof means you're "not" Muslim or any other religion, is pure semantics anyway. You'd literally have to prove your god existed in order to present an identity to the entire world that was 100% defensible as a "true" anything. Most people on Earth who are religious, believe that other religions are either wholly or partially false. So none of the people they think about are "true Christians" for example, because the underlying logic is fraudulent. They are therefore "dedicated and admirable but delusional believers" or "zealous credulous suckers" or whatever position you want to take.

I'm a "white anglo saxon protestant" by many definitions - but technically I'm catholic (never practicing and only believed in the bits that might save me from Vampires or Pazuzu) and factually not genetically all that Anglo Saxon either.

There's an ethnic aspect to Judaism that makes it different to Christianity and Islam. In Islam, there are five basic pillars of Islam that if you don't even believe in them, you would not be considered a Muslim at all. The first one is that "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger." That's the very core and basis of Islam. So 'Muslim atheist' is quite the oxymoron tbh.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,018
I've never read the quran. Is hating people different from Muslims a big thing in the book? My first guess would be no, but I can wait for confirmation.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,563
Sweden
i mean you're absolutely right, but the fact that she is a literal child makes the comments in this thread hard to read. the thread has devolved into "is she a racist for saying that islam is bad!?!?!?!" when she's a child, a kid, a teenager. one who has been victim of homophobic harassment. was what she said immature? yes. is she immature? yes, she's a friggen minor.
100% agree with this sentiment
 

CaptainKashup

Banned
May 10, 2018
8,313
French Twitter is really sad to see. Absolutely everyone is shitting on her and basically forcing her into the arms of the far-right.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
There's an ethnic aspect to Judaism that makes it different to Christianity and Islam. In Islam, there are five basic pillars of Islam that if you don't even believe in them, you would not be considered a Muslim at all. The first one is that "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger." That's the very core and basis of Islam. So 'Muslim atheist' is quite the oxymoron tbh.

All of those religions have had ethinicity directly attached to them over the centuries - often with terrifying results. And Jewish ethnicity is itself a moving target and a subject of much debate. You're not wrong that the current situation supports that, but it continually changes - and Islam in particular uses Arab language and locations - as well as associated ethnicity - as measures of closeness to the faith and even God. And all three religions preach a gospel of multiplying to create new believers, and all three have caveats about who's suitable for that.

Islam's initial focus on exponential growth, conquest and dissemination of the Quran (and recency) means that in that sense it's a lot less focused on origins for believers, but it's not nothin' either.

I mean you also have hilarious Christian blocs like (some) evangelicals and Mormons who like to present a "true" Christian as white.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,695
Religion is never the problem. It's always the people that interpret it and take action that are the threat. But in an era of regular mass killings I find myself seriously distrusting any kind of dogmatic ideologies, especially ones that make proclamations over justifiable torture and murder. Sure, it says not to do a thing but these things are subject to subjective interpretation and an individual or group can easily convince themselves that it gives them the go-ahead to commit atrocities.
You've identified right here why all religions are a serious problem and always will be: they are by definition the systematizing of dogmatic ideologies, specifically ones not grounded in reality (i.e., supernaturally based). Huge amounts of progress have been delayed/lost due to zealot-like adherents of all major religions, including christianity, judaism, islam, hinduism, and buddhism. The amount of irrational divisiveness, oppression, atavism, cruelty, and death all major religions have promoted and inflicted since the dawn of civilization trumps that of all types of rational/grounded-in-reality ideologies combined.

The reason most adherents of any given religion are not problematic is because they loosely believe or follow the dogmas (i.e., interpretively rather than literally) and/or are able to compartmentalize religion to the private aspects of their life. Regardless, there is always the threat that sects of any given religion will push tribalism and be violently oppressive due to the nature of religion itself.

We see this in the U.S. with evangelical Christians. At this moment in time, they are the biggest threat to the existence of the U.S. as a body politic and possibly continued human existence on this planet due to their irrational denial of global warming and tribalistic promotion of fossil fuel and pollution promoting industries.
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
All of those religions have had ethinicity directly attached to them over the centuries - often with terrifying results. And Jewish ethnicity is itself a moving target and a subject of much debate. You're not wrong that the current situation supports that, but it continually changes - and Islam in particular uses Arab language and locations - as well as associated ethnicity - as measures of closeness to the faith and even God. And all three religions preach a gospel of multiplying to create new believers, and all three have caveats about who's suitable for that.

Islam's initial focus on exponential growth, conquest and dissemination of the Quran (and recency) means that in that sense it's a lot less focused on origins for believers, but it's not nothin' either.

I mean you also have hilarious Christian blocs like (some) evangelicals and Mormons who like to present a "true" Christian as white.

You're right that Islam's origin in Arabia means that some aspects of Arabic culture come along with it. I'm not an Arab, but I can read the Arabic alphabet (most Muslims are taught how to read the Quran in Arabic and even memorise portions - or the entirety of it - from childhood), was encouraged to learn Arabic and did for many years (still interested in picking it back up as it's a very beautiful language). The five daily prayers are said in Arabic, and there are a number of supplications that you say in Arabic too. There are certain foods that are common in a number of countries during Ramadan, too. Depending on how religious the person is, they might wear Arabic clothes, but really each country has their own form of 'modest' Islamic clothing, and that is what is generally worn in each country. It even varies in different Arabic/Middle Eastern countries.

All of this is separate from ethnicity, though. I've never met an ex-Muslim who still considers themselves a Muslim in any form. Typically if they still practice some of the customs, it's due to peer pressure from their families, since a lot of people cannot come out and say "I've left Islam" without facing some form of repercussions, even if it's just a huge strain with their family. Muslim as a label is very strongly tied to belief unlike Judaism. You may hold on to some of the values you learned from Islam (as there are honestly a lot of positive teachings, Islam definitely had a part in informing my views on class for example, and why I always found religious conservatives who hate the poor perplexing), but if you don't believe in Allah at the very minimum, then that direct link to the faith is broken.

I'm not sure about what you mean about who is suitable for increasing the numbers of the religious followers (in relation to Islam, at least).
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,232
Comments towards her were obviously unwarranted and disrespectful, but I dont really think she needed to come back with such a sweeping, ignorant generalization. Good to see that the hate speech thing was dropped though
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
French Twitter is really sad to see. Absolutely everyone is shitting on her and basically forcing her into the arms of the far-right.

Your post kinda reminds me of this comic. I really don't believe anyone can be bullied into being part of the far right, especially LGBTQ people. Having seen her talk about reverse racism in the original video that started all of this, my guess is she was already well on her way to join them anyways.

1350.png


*DISCLAIMER* I know I have to write it because some of you will just see this comic and act all shocked I would compare her to a skinhead. I am not. Please take your time to read my post before quoting me.

Comments towards her were obviously unwarranted and disrespectful, but I dont really think she needed to come back with such a sweeping, ignorant generalization. Good to see that the hate speech thing was dropped though

Yeah same. It was just super ignorant shit, she wasn't trying to incite violence or action against muslims.
 
Aug 14, 2018
76
Not just non-white Muslims, but Muslims in general, and brown people who could be mistaken for Muslim by ignorant racists. Islamophobia can sometimes just be another form of racism against Middle Easterners and South Asians (and people who look like them). And hatred towards Islam is not always rooted in disagreements with the teachings, but rather because Muslims are an 'other' and a threat to their 'culture'. You'll also find plenty of Islamophobes who either follow or are fine with the other Abrahamic faiths, despite their holy scriptures having equally problematic stuff.

But yes, that's where the pushback against the "Islam isn't a race" argument comes from. Because Islamophobes use it as an excuse to mask their hatred against Muslims specifically. Because the implication is usually "Islam isn't a race, therefore I cannot be a racist when I decide to incite hatred against Muslims, I'm just attacking the religion, you see." There's a big difference between thoughtful and responsible critique and fear-mongering, generalising etc. The latter hurts innocent Muslims who are a persecuted minority in many parts of the world, despite Islam being the second largest religion overall.

I think a big issue that I see recurring in this thread is that people look at this from a black and white perspective, or look at things literally/simplistically (like the argument you made in your initial post). While technically true that Islam isn't a religion, it's ignoring the context in which this phrase is commonly used, and why people take issue with it. On the other hand, I don't think the solution is to never criticise Islam as a religion either, as there does need to be pressure for it to modernise and become more progressive, even in secular nations. I have personal experience with this, and see what this lack of progress does in my own community.

Which kind of goes back to what I mentioned at the end of my first paragraph. In the context of countries where Muslims are a minority, I feel the most responsible way to critique it is speaking about all of the religions that have these issues, including Christianity. Singling out Islam just bears the risk of making Muslims out to be this evil and barbaric group of people, even though there are plenty of Muslims who follow a progressive and inclusive interpretation of Islam, and there are many non-Muslim majority countries that have similar issues.

TLDR: There's a lot to criticise in the Quran and prophetic sayings, but there are responsible ways to do that without endangering marginalised Muslims.

Excellent post and this is pretty close to where I personally stand on the matter.

Possibly selection bias, but most of the Jewish folks I know including my ex-gf, are absolutely atheists. Their Jewishness to them is a matter of cultural traditions, identity and even race and ethnicity - but the idea of god or creation or supernatural power is silly to them. There ARE such people in every faith, who adhere to traditions through necessity, through politeness, genuine enthusiasm, love even. They may even believe in every tenet and rule of the faith. But don't believe in the underlying supernatural elements.

Judaism in the west isn't just tolerant of that - it encourages it partly to augment its populations and power base but the religion has been forgiving of dissent via scholarship for millennia. Heck, Christians are a sect of Judaism that was politely tolerated or accepted at one point.

It's far from unusual and the argument that by holding that internal position of "nah, there's no magic or miracles or god" or doubts thereof means you're "not" Muslim or any other religion, is pure semantics anyway. You'd literally have to prove your god existed in order to present an identity to the entire world that was 100% defensible as a "true" anything. Most people on Earth who are religious, believe that other religions are either wholly or partially false. So none of the people they think about are "true Christians" for example, because the underlying logic is fraudulent. They are therefore "dedicated and admirable but delusional believers" or "zealous credulous suckers" or whatever position you want to take.

I'm a "white anglo saxon protestant" by many definitions - but technically I'm catholic (never practicing and only believed in the bits that might save me from Vampires or Pazuzu) and factually not genetically all that Anglo Saxon either.

You can't really compare Judaism to Islam or Christianity since Judaism is also an ethnicity. I mean you can be a Jew without being ethnically Jewish, but an ethnic Jew can also be an atheist.

I think that people tend to mix up culture with religion on many cases, and that's why we have the argument in this thread that we have, but I also think that in regular life a lot of people don't necessarily think too much about their religion too much. They follow the rituals and traditions, some of which may be religious in nature, some cultural in nature and then call themselves Muslims or Christians even though you don't necessarily believe much of the religious doctrine.

Would I call someone a Christian who maybe doesn't belive in god and Jesus, but celebrates the Christian holidays and attends church from time to time just because that's what everyone else does? Maybe not in a strict sense, but in a practical sense they're still Christians. If they actively renounce their religion and convert to another faith or decide to become atheists then they cannot be Christians. By the logic of some people here you could be a Muslim Christian or a Christian Muslim, but that would be impossible since you can't follow both religions at the same time.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,381
please don't weaponize the LGBT community i am a part of to go after people's faith

honestly the only religion i've been persecuted by as a queer person is Christianity. the muslims i have known have been nothing but respectful and supportive whereas the persecution by evangelical christians has been very intense and cruel and unpleasant but I don't use it to justify some misguided campaign against Christianity. i actually think Christianity has a lot of poetry and wisdom and knowledge to contribute to culture, same with many many other religions and people with a paper-thin understanding of these religions love cherrypicking statistics and instances of specific hateful religious people to generalize against an entire religion

I grew up in Turkey, 99% muslim country, and bigotry towards LGBT people there is extreme. The murder rate against trans people is the highest in the european continent. Muslims who emigrate to the west are often more progressive than ones living in muslim majority countries. There are even violent hate crimes against atheists in turkey, and of course against christians and jews.

I would recommend not to generalize your view of a religion simply based on your view of the members of that religion that you have encountered in your area. I would say that the factor isn't a particular religion per se, but the cultural dominance of a given religion. In the west, christianity dominates so bigotry from that majority group towards others is more prevalent. In the middle east, islam dominates so bigotry from that majority group towards others is more prevalent.