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Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,836
Sure, that's what mature people do in polite discourse, but it still shouldn't be illegal to blaspheme.

And as for her, she's an 16 year old kid who received bigotry and death threats so I can't say I care if she does not respond with "nuance". Let her blaspheme her heart out.
I mean, I get she's 16 and don't hold her to the same standard as an adult, but this kind of stuff shouldn't be acceptable on a cultural level because of the context of racism and xenophobia involved. A lot of people conveniently choose to ignore the latter elements, which is incredibly frustrating for brown folks who have to deal with islamophobia. This is why I think it's important to handle the situation with that in mind.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
Yeah, because all LGBTQ people are white. There is plenty of legit criticism of all religions. Islma is no different. We have POC men and women "blaspheming" against Islam because how they were treated (wheter they were gay,abused,etc) same with Catholics.

Non white people can also be racist against muslims and vote for laws that discriminate against muslims, if that was you wanted me to acknowledge.

If someone is to say «anti-muslim sentiment shouldn't be called racism because it elevates Islam to a point where it can't be criticized is one things, expecting a 16 year old white atheist teenager to be the avatar of resonable discourse on this matter is another thing.
 

Excuse me

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,020
Non white people can also be racist against muslims and vote for laws that discriminate against muslims, if that was you wanted me to acknowledge.
Yes. Because you made it sound like nobody else beyond far right shit heads could have negative things to say about religion. When religious people actively oppress minorities.

... And I'm not without symphaty. We have seen in China where this kinda blanket discrimination of religion can lead to. And before that atrocities commited in soviet union and other parts of the world.
 
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Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,854
It doesn't help your case when your response to a teenage girl calling your religion a religion of hate is "No it's not! I'LL KILL YOU FOR THAT!"
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
I agree completely. We already have a word for oppressive systems of thought though: religion.

what religion doesn't also have aspects of an ideology? I personally believe the right uses the term ideology to distinguish the Islam from other religions, and avoid being seen as criticizing religion in general, offending their religious Christian base and the people who may not be religious but believe in "judeo-Christian values".

Religion is often described with different terms. It's not uncommon for Muslims to describe Islam as a "way of life", for example. Others may call it a creed, or their faith etc. I'm sure some people exclusively use this term for Islam to justify their Islamophobia, though. And yeah, "judeo-Christian values" is another example of a dogwhistle that's meant to simply exclude Islam, and is not actually a thing.

To summarise, I just want to say that it's obvious that we're in agreement overall, I was just perplexed by some posts in this thread seemingly elevating Islam beyond a religion and not simply calling out the dogwhistle.
 

Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
If its okay to shittalk Evangelicalism its okay to shittalk Islam.

I'll defend Muslims or anyone who wants to worship whatever any day. But I should be allowed to criticize it and any religion as well.
 

Patapuf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,418
I mean, I get she's 16 and don't hold her to the same standard as an adult, but this kind of stuff shouldn't be acceptable on a cultural level because of the context of racism and xenophobia involved. A lot of people conveniently choose to ignore the latter elements, which is incredibly frustrating for brown folks who have to deal with islamophobia. This is why I think it's important to handle the situation with that in mind.

The part that s unacceptable ist that one of the attacked minority needs police protection. And it's not the muslim. Who ist also the original instigator btw.

It's important to mind xenophobia. But the disproportionate reaction was not by the girl.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
If its okay to shittalk Evangelicalism its okay to shittalk Islam.

I'll defend Muslims or anyone who wants to worship whatever any day. But I should be allowed to criticize it and any religion as well.

Context is important, I think.

Like, you really don't see any difference between criticizing the belief of the majority of a country vs. a minority?
 

Yam's

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,045
The original video was posted by Mila after a live chat she did with her followers where one guy tried to hit on her and despite being rejected would not back off. He then began to insult her for being a French racist, a whore and a lesbian. Insults took a religious tone and Mila posted a message attacking all religions. That's when she began receiving threats telling her she should burn in hell for insulting Allah. After this she posted the original video where she insulted Islam.

The fact that she still cannot go back to school and needs police protection is absolutely not normal. Could she have phrased her video better? Definitely, but this does not justify what she's currently living through. The fact that the Minister of the Interior had to remind that blaspheming is allowed in France is scary. I mean 5 years ago everyone was a "Je suis Charlie".
 

Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
Context is important, I think.

Like, you really don't see any difference between criticizing the belief of the majority of a country vs. a minority?
Nope.

They should be allowed to worship without fear of doing so, but being a minority faith doesn't give the faith itself immunity from criticism.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,836
The part that s unacceptable ist that one of the attacked minority needs police protection. And it's not the muslim. Who ist also the original instigator btw.

It's important to mind xenophobia. But the disproportionate reaction was not by the girl.
The guy who instigated it and the people sending the death threats are far more in the wrong than the girl, but I just feel that the response to that is also disproportionate in that it fuels xenophobia/islamophobia. I fear this kind of thinking will be used to justify violence and further discrimination against minorities. The situation sucks all around.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
Nope.

They should be allowed to worship without fear of doing so, but being a minority faith doesn't give the faith itself immunity from criticism.

I think the disproportionate power dynamics at play must definitely be taken into consideration, but we all have our own beliefs.

Living in Québec and hearing people constantly shit in muslims must have broken me on this question though.
 

Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
I think the disproportionate power dynamics at play must definitely be taken into consideration, but we all have our own beliefs.

Living in Québec and hearing people constantly shit in muslims must have broken me on this question though.

I get where you're coming from, but I think its important to make the distinction between the practitioners of faith who should be left alone from fear and xenophobia, and the faith itself, which I feel is completely fine to criticize.

I mean, look at some of the shit in that book. Not okay.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
If someone says "I'm muslim and being gay is wrong," your response shouldn't be "muslims are intolerant," it should be "you are homophobic, and shame on you for using your religion to justify your personal beliefs."
This. Thank you. It ain't so hard. Her victimhood doesn't justify throwing millions of muslims under the bus that have not done nothing wrong to anyone.
 

Doran

Member
Jun 9, 2018
1,849
I think the disproportionate power dynamics at play must definitely be taken into consideration, but we all have our own beliefs.

Living in Québec and hearing people constantly shit in muslims must have broken me on this question though.

Those people that are shitting on Muslims (assuming just for the sake of it) are definitely being intolerant. We just need to differentiate the intolerant people from the tolerant ones and the peaceful practitioners of any faith and the bad actors who use their faith to attack others. Both groups deserve to be criticized (intolerant people and bad actors). Problem is when people label entire groups.

It is always easier to attack entire groups of people than it is to have discussions with bad actors or intolerant people though.
 

Doran

Member
Jun 9, 2018
1,849
Highschool is far worse than any number of threats adults on social media can dish out. It's basically a pocket dimension of teenagers trying to kill each other to climb the social ladder

Where the hell did you go to high school lol

Although social media has likely had this 10x worse because of other high schoolers more so than strangers.
 

EloquentM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,631
Are there any devote theist out there that will ever acknowledge their religion being an ideology?
 

dang0

Member
Oct 28, 2017
244
Auckland, New Zealand
I'm fully okay with people criticising religion. For example I think any God that condemns people for homosexuality, an act that harms noone, is not worthy of my worship.

That being said, this girls remarks were basically "Islam is mean and I hate it!" I mean I get she's a teen and was upset but acting like this was some great critique is kinda dumb to me.
 

Sloth Guevara

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,333
Progressives focus a lot on protecting marginalized groups. Giving voice to the people that have none, speak up against injustice. Here in Sweden it has become such a dominant part of leftist ideas that the Left-party (they are called exactly that) have no focus on workers/unions etc anymore - it's about protecting the marginalized.
And I think they do a great job, mostly. Them and the whole progressive movement.

There's one thing though. I really, really long for the day that progressives realize that just because muslims are marginalized in the west, islam as a religion and world institution stands for -everything- the progressives wants to change. Stop conflating criticism of islam with hate towards single muslims, cause islam DO deserve A LOT of criticism. The fact that muslims are a small and marginalized group in the west should never act as a blanket shield to this criticism, and when it comes down to a clash between religeous rights vs womens rights (for example, which it often does here in Sweden) - womens rights should of course ALWAYS come before. This is by the way something concrete where the Left-party has really struggled the last couple of years, I guess simply in fear of being in agreement with the far right. But guess what - the way women are treated under sharia law is horrible, even if the far right also says so.

I need some examples of these instances of the left party defending bad representation of Islam.
 

moru0

Member
Oct 30, 2017
24
This has been going on for WEEKS in France, it is a mess.

Unfortunately, everybody involved in this story has been wrong to some extent. Trying to understand who's fault is this is not helping much. Regarding the freedom of speech debate, remember this is French law, not US law. Justice had to open an investigation just to check (saying harmful things towards a group =/= encouraging harm towards a group). It has been discarded, no biggie. Just when things were starting to slow down a bit... She did this interview on TV. And here we go again, social networks, hashtags, musics, politics. It is crazy.

What should be important (to me at least):
- She spoke her truth (I just hope she is not a racist in disguise, I'm willing to give her the benefit of doubt)
- Make sure she's safe and can go back to school soon
- Justice should catch the people who sent her death threats & homophobic messages

- Ignore the far right trolls who found in her their new idol
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
I think the disproportionate power dynamics at play must definitely be taken into consideration, but we all have our own beliefs.

Living in Québec and hearing people constantly shit in muslims must have broken me on this question though.
Speaking as someone who has been on the receiving end of Islamophobia (like I mentioned earlier in the thread), but whose life has also been negatively impacted by Islam, I feel it isn't about the criticism in and of itself, but being responsible in how you give it. Context is also important. There's a big difference in an ex-Muslim harshly speaking out against the faith which oppressed them and some racist right-wing politician stoking xenophobia and paranoia.

It's a complex issue which requires some thought and tact, for sure. But some people like myself are victims in multiple ways. And I can't help but feel that Islam should not be shielded from critique so it can continue to modernise. Thankfully many Muslims follow a progressive interpretation of Islam, and that kind of progress should be encouraged and not be assumed to be the norm. Even in secular countries, many women and LGBT+ Muslims face pressure, whether indirect or direct, to follow patriarchal and harmful customs and do not have full autonomy over their lives. They are also victims of Islamophobia and are hurt by Islamophobic rhetoric (growing up as a young teen post-9/11 was not fun, let me tell you, especially when you were instantly identifiable as a Muslim like I was).

TLDR: I think this is a subject that requires a lot of nuance, and people should avoid looking at it through one extreme lens or another. But instead show empathy towards all of the people who are hurt and marginalised by these issues.
 

sirap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,211
South East Asia
I don't care if you want to shit on religion, but realise that at this point in time it's impossible to separate "Islam" and "Muslim". Not because we (muslims) like it that way, but because it's what the rest of the world deems to be true.

There's a reason why so many of us get frustrated when it happens, and it's not because we think our religion is perfect and untouchable.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
This has been going on for WEEKS in France, it is a mess.

Unfortunately, everybody involved in this story has been wrong to some extent. Trying to understand who's fault is this is not helping much. Regarding the freedom of speech debate, remember this is French law, not US law. Justice had to open an investigation just to check (saying harmful things towards a group =/= encouraging harm towards a group). It has been discarded, no biggie. Just when things were starting to slow down a bit... She did this interview on TV. And here we go again, social networks, hashtags, musics, politics. It is crazy.

What should be important (to me at least):
- She spoke her truth (I just hope she is not a racist in disguise, I'm willing to give her the benefit of doubt)
- Make sure she's safe and can go back to school soon
- Justice should catch the people who sent her death threats & homophobic messages

- Ignore the far right trolls who found in her their new idol

Thanks for your perspective!
 

fireflame

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,275
So now Era defends Islamophobi? Can't say I'm surprised, but still disappointed
If i am correct a boy tried rudely to seduce her and she refused, and he told her since she was lesbian she would go to hell. She then made a video where she criticized islam vehemently.Hate speech is hate against people. She expressed hostility for a religion, which many fine people do.
 

faceless

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,198
Not really, because individuals aren't representative of an entire group.

I grew up Catholic, I have met some amazing Catholics and priests who were fantastic people. The Catholic Church can also be a horrible institution that shelters pedophiles.

I would never say Catholics are all pedophiles.

I don't know if I am making sense lol
it'd be like saying the Catholic Church is a sect of pedophilia.
 

Kapryov

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,147
Australia
I think people here are getting a little too eager here to call her a racist.
If she earns that title, then sure whatever, but she's 16 and was discriminated against. She's a teenager that reacted... a lot like many teenagers would in these circumstances.

Hell when I was 16 I was all "fuck all religion" for similar reasons and thought I was right about it because "they teach hate, so fuck whoever associates with it", right? I've since met fine religious people that don't harbour anti-LGBTQ stances, and my statements as a teenager could be hurtful to those individuals, I've grown and know better as an adult.

Also, she's gay, she's an enemy of the far right.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
Speaking as someone who has been on the receiving end of Islamophobia (like I mentioned earlier in the thread), but whose life has also been negatively impacted by Islam, I feel it isn't about the criticism in and of itself, but being responsible in how you give it. Context is also important. There's a big difference in an ex-Muslim harshly speaking out against the faith which oppressed them and some racist right-wing politician stoking xenophobia and paranoia.

It's a complex issue which requires some thought and tact, for sure. But some people like myself are victims in multiple ways. And I can't help but feel that Islam should not be shielded from critique so it can continue to modernise. Thankfully many Muslims follow a progressive interpretation of Islam, and that kind of progress should be encouraged and not be assumed to be the norm. Even in secular countries, many women and LGBT+ Muslims face pressure, whether indirect or direct, to follow patriarchal and harmful customs and do not have full autonomy over their lives. They are also victims of Islamophobia and are hurt by Islamophobic rhetoric (growing up as a young teen post-9/11 was not fun, let me tell you, especially when you were instantly identifiable as a Muslim like I was).

TLDR: I think this is a subject that requires a lot of nuance, and people should avoid looking at it through one extreme lens or another. But instead show empathy towards all of the people who are hurt and marginalised by these issues.

Can't imagine living though post 9/11 as a muslim, all the stories I have heard are all super depressing.

Your posts ends on a beautiful message though, and I can't agree more!
 

Sloth Guevara

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,333
So the peeps saying that you can't be racist against Muslims cause they aren't a race ARE using a far right talking point.

there is a huge difference between a criticism like "the hijab is very heteronormative" and "Islam is a religion of hate"/"Islam is a violent culture".

Surly people can wrap their heads around the concepts of racism?
Being of Indian decent I never catch shot for the appalling views on women in India.
Yet plenty of Muslims do.
It IS closely tied to the imperialist policies of the major western powers that do have a steak in making Muslims look bad so people don't mind them being bombed and robbed of their natural resources.
 

Horp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,712
I need some examples of these instances of the left party defending bad representation of Islam.
There are countless examples, but it's mostly statements from particular people within the party (which the party does not speak out against). To the point where some media outlets have talked about how the defense of islam vs the defense of women has split the party.


These are not far right publications or anything by the way.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,836
I get where you're coming from, but I think its important to make the distinction between the practitioners of faith who should be left alone from fear and xenophobia, and the faith itself, which I feel is completely fine to criticize.

I mean, look at some of the shit in that book. Not okay.
In theory I'm fine with this, but the reality is that it's impossible to do. No one seems to have an answer on how to go about doing it.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
Finally came across the full clip, love at 1:40 where she wonders where the REAL racism is coming from, when she is being called « sale française » (dirty french woman) and « les francais c'est tous des fils de putes » (french people are all sons of bitches). Can't be racist against a religion but you can be racist against "the french"? Makes sense.

All this reverse racism really makes you think, huh!

 
Oct 27, 2017
1,227
I think the disproportionate power dynamics at play must definitely be taken into consideration, but we all have our own beliefs.

Living in Québec and hearing people constantly shit in muslims must have broken me on this question though.
The disproportionate power dynamics favor the religious. Tone policing doesn't generally defend atheists.
 

AusGeno

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,076
16 year old girls shouldn't be threatened into hiding by religious zealots in 2020, this is disgusting.
 

Bunga

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,251
So, they got outraged at being accused of being a religion of hate so their response was to force her into police protection with death threats. Nice counter argument lol.
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
it'd be like saying the Catholic Church is a sect of pedophilia

Blasphemy!

Man I'm glad I dropped my faith when I was young, getting angry because someone somewhere is dissing your faith is fucking sad.

Also, she's gay, she's an enemy of the far right.

Nah, they'll embrace whoever they can, as they see the ultimate battle for them is against Islam. Look at Le Pen suddenly caring about anti Asian sentiment
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,225
A 16 year old shouldn't be harassed out of school, shouldn't receive death threats. Particularly for a Snapchat video that her harassers decided to use against her.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
There was no reason to attack an entire religion. Go after the piece of shit individual who was spewing that hateful garbage.
Why not?

Whenever someone of an ideology that ResetEra hates says or does something that we disagree with we gleefully shit on the whole ideology and its followers.

Religions, given how repressive they are towards sexual minorities, should not be protected from insult anymore than say a political ideology.

For example, ResetEra has been scathing and insulting towards the Catholic Church because of the child abuse cases - and rightly so.
 
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Kapryov

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,147
Australia
Are you (...or rather were you) aware of this guy named Milo?
Who?

Seriously though, that's something else. The self-hating type, like that other nazi guy with the Jewish wife or whatever was going on.
I don't think that's anything to do with this topic. The far right are just using her because she's in the spotlight and controversial.
 

iapetus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,078
Reminds me of people who were accused of antisemitism when they're critisizing Zionism or supporting BDS.

It's a very good parallel. Antisemites defend their hate speech as anti-Zionist. Zionists paint anyone who criticises them as antisemitic. It's in the interests of both extremes to conflate the two concepts. Same with islamophobia.
 

jaxom

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
122
So the peeps saying that you can't be racist against Muslims cause they aren't a race ARE using a far right talking point.

You (plural,with the other people before) should stop with this logic. (And btw you can be racist against muslims, its not racist against islam itself the true rethoric.)

Its not because far right are using it as a rethoric /excuse that it makes it false. Shitty people using something as an argument doesnt make the argument shitty.

For context there was a civil war in france before ww1 to take out catholicism and force laicity in the state and schools. There is a strong anti religionbelief from a lot of people here that is far from being linked to any racist movement. On the contrary far right in france is quite often linked with catholicism not atheism.