Freedom of speech debate heats up in France after death threats to 16-year-old girl who called Islam "religion of hate"

[Cromat]

For all those who are "both sides"ing this, simply replace the word Islam with Christianity in your head, and instantly you will see that this girl was well within her rights to speak her mind (regardless of whether you agree) and that investigating her and giving her death threats is insane.

 

[pleaseinsertdisctwo]

I support anyone who shits on religion, which should not exist by now

 

[Salty_Josh]

"Insulting the culture of brown people isnt racism because culture isnt people" is an interesting opinion to have in 2020.

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It's so thinly veiled

 

[Kurdel]

Feel like we didn't really get FrancEra's take on this yet, they are probably still sleeping.

Will be curious to hear more takes from them, this shit has been going on for WEEKS.

 

[IDreamOfHime]

Islam is an ideology, not a race. Ideologies have no rights.

Also, Islam (as well as other Abrahamic religions) has some serious issues with LBGT rights. It's not exactly surprising for a LBGT person to look upon said religions very negatively, especially when openly attacked by someone who identify as a believer of such religions.

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I like how that image has a pentagram and an anarchist symbol...but no representation of Buddhism.

 

[BarcaTheGreat]

I follow the religion she is insulting and she has every right to say whatever she wants to about it and people like me have every right to ignore her. She might've hurt my feelings (actually she didn't) but Fuck anyone who feels attacking her personally.

 

[faceless]

doesn't this type of retaliation just solidify her statement?

 

[Morrigan]

I already told me I don't buy her damage control, especially with the hate speech laws in France how dumb must she be to say ANYTHING else?

I just watched the video, this girl is unquestionably a racist piece of shit. If this video was english this thread would have a 100% different vibe.

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You watched the video here and think she's "unquestionably a racist piece of shit"? Really?

While there's plenty of people that hide their xenophobia under the guise of criticizing religion (Marine Le Pen and other right-wing fuckers capitalizing on that are a clear example, as are right-wing assholes here in Québec), it's very clear that this girl was upset at religious ideas attacking her identity. She just fired back accordingly, and in the video above she clearly cites the right to blaspheme, which is indeed fundamental to free speech. Had her response been to Christian harassers, it would be the same thing.

Now, maybe she'll start palling up with far-right assholes later down the line (that would be a shame, she's also young and prone to being manipulated or influenced), but based on her words so far, I think you are definitely barking up the wrong tree. She was attacked with vicious homophobia and received death threats. Comparing her to that MAGA kid is really uncalled for.

 

[Deleted member 15666]

I've started reading the Quran with translation. I'm just in the beginning but there is an applicable verse for this situation:

http://en.noblequran.org/quran/surah-al-araf/ayat-199/

With commentary I came across:

150. Here some important directives are addressed to the Prophet (peace be on him) regarding how he should preach the Message of Islam and how he should guide and reform people. The object of these directives is not merely to instruct the Prophet (peace be on him), but also to instruct all those who would shoulder the same responsibility after the Prophet (peace be on him) was no longer amidst them. The major directives are as follows:

(1) The most important qualities that must be cultivated by anyone who calls others to the truth are tenderness, magnanimity, and forbearing. Such a person should also have the capacity to tolerate the lapses of his companions and to patiently endure the excesses of his opponents. He should also be able to keep his cool in the face of grave provocation and gracefully connive at the offensive behaviour of others. In facing the angry words, slander, persecution and mischief of his opponents, he should exercise the utmost self-restraint. Harshness, severity, bitterness. and vindictive provocativeness on his part are bound to undermine his mission. The same point seems to have been made in a Hadith in which the Prophet (peace be on him) says that he has been commanded by his Lord: '...to say the just word whether I am angry, or pleased; to maintain ties with nim who severs ties with me; and to give to him who denies me (my right); and to forgive him who wrongs me.' (See the comments of Qurtubi in his Tafsir on the verse - Ed.) The Prophet (peace be on him) also instructed all those whom he deputized for preaching: 'Give good news rather than arouse revulsion: make things easy rather than hard.' (Muslim, Kitab al-Ilm, Bab fi al-amr bi al-Taysir wa Tark al-Ta'sir'- Ed.) This distinguishing feature of the Prophet's personality has also been mentioned in the Qur'an.

It was thanks to Allah's mercy that you were gentle to them. Had you been rough, hard-hearted, they would surely have scattered away, from you (AI 'Imran 3:159).

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P.S. I'm just leaving one perspective here and won't be engaging beyond that. If you quote my post, I won't be responding to you.

 

[Rosebud]

Every religion can be criticized.

Islam is not the only one, Christians in my country are all about hate.

 

[Deleted member 18192]

I support anyone who shits on religion, which should not exist by now

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Pretty much, We live in an age of knowledge like never before yet alot of people still want to follow a book that was written thousands of years ago to control a population

 

[LossAversion]

Miss me with that homophobic harassment.

Miss me with those death threats.

Miss me with the notion that "blasphemy" should warrant any sort of punishment.

Miss me with the notion that criticism of religion should be silenced.

 

[SugarNoodles]

"insulting the culture of Brown people"

Are those not your words?



Am I misunderstanding what you wrote because it's reads like you're saying Islam is part of the culture of brown people?

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Oh, this is a really important clarification, thank you for bringing it up!

Islam is not, in fact, the culture of *all* brown people.

Sorry if my wording confused you.

 

[Deleted member 13496]

Kurdel AKA Golden Pigeon II.

 

[Deleted member 4552]

Kurdel AKA Golden Pigeon II.

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Hah, Jesus Christ! That's a blast from the past.

 

[Holmes]

The homophobic attack on her was wrong and out of line, and so was her going right to attacking a whole religion as retaliation. These death threats cross the line, of course. Sounds like everyone involved in this case are in the wrong.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Man I don't know how a 16 year old handles getting death threats from a bunch of strangers

 

[Dog of Bork]

So the girl who is responding to homophobic slurs is a "racist piece of shit".

Too bad you're not as upset with the homophobic piece of shit, or the homicidal threat slinging pieces of shit on the other end of this conflict.

 

[phonicjoy]

Islam is an ideology, not a race. Ideologies have no rights.

Also, Islam (as well as other Abrahamic religions) has some serious issues with LBGT rights. It's not exactly surprising for a LBGT person to look upon said religions very negatively, especially when openly attacked by someone who identify as a believer of such religions.

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Wow, the"Islam is an ideology" argument. That's a) not factual, and b) another actual dogwhistle.

for the record I'm queer.

 

[Deleted member 8166]

if I have to choose between fighting for you to spout hateful religious stuff and someone living their life and sexuality...I'll choose the person living their life and sexuality.

 

[Lentic]

Couldn't she have called out the commenter without calling out the whole religion? I feel that most Southern Baptists are bigots, but I don't think it's inherently a bigoted religion, it's just being misused as cover to push individual agendas.

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Of course.

There are lots of idiots online. For her to jump from an idiot insulting her to her insulting a religion followed by over a billion people with billion different expressions of said religion is even more idiotic than the idiot who insulted her.

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Yup. You can call out the particular person without making shitty generalizations about entire groups of people that have a vast spectrum of interpretation of their beliefs.

Some of the comments in this thread are absolutely disgusting to read. "I should be able to spout hate towards religion because it's an ideology" should be fucking ban worthy.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

So the girl who is responding to homophobic slurs is a "racist piece of shit".

Too bad you're not as upset with the homophobic piece of shit, or the homicidal threat slinging pieces of shit on the other end of this conflict.

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Nobody is defending the homophobia.

There are people defending and attempting to gaslight people over what is a well worn racist and Islamophobic talking point.

Victims of one form of bigotry can be perpetrators of another, it's not binary.

 

[Wrapped in Black]

She's right.

Islam is trash. Muslims are not.

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"Your ideology is trash, but you, who have devoted your entire identity, lifestyle, and very being to your ideology, are not."

 

[Kurdel]

You watched the video here and think she's "unquestionably a racist piece of shit"? Really?

While there's plenty of people that hide their xenophobia under the guise of criticizing religion (Marine Le Pen and other right-wing fuckers capitalizing on that are a clear example, as are right-wing assholes here in Québec), it's very clear that this girl was upset at religious ideas attacking her identity. She just fired back accordingly, and in the video above she clearly cites the right to blaspheme, which is indeed fundamental to free speech. Had her response been to Christian harassers, it would be the same thing.

Now, maybe she'll start palling up with far-right assholes later down the line (that would be a shame, she's also young and prone to being manipulated or influenced), but based on her words so far, I think you are definitely barking up the wrong tree. She was attacked with vicious homophobia and received death threats. Comparing her to that MAGA kid is really uncalled for.

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No I am talking about the original video.

« I' m just saying what I think, fuck everyone who disagrees » attitude, not someone who was over emotional and impassioned by the homophobic comments from what I can see. I recognize this type of arrogance from a hundred videos I have seen here, and her apologizing to muslims who felt offended is the kind of non-apology that gets laughed out of the room in threads pertaining to other kinds or bigotry here.

I understand it's in the eye of the beholder though, but that is definitely what I see and hear when I watch the video I shared.

And just to be clear, I am saying this story reminds me of the Covington one, not trying to compare these kids or their views.

This story actually reminds me of that smug Covington kid.

If you just ignore a bunch of stuff, the narrative is as maleable as you want it to be.

Definitely a scary evolution of the culture war.

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So the girl who is responding to homophobic slurs is a "racist piece of shit".

Too bad you're not as upset with the homophobic piece of shit, or the homicidal threat slinging pieces of shit on the other end of this conflict.

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You can quote me next time if you want to discuss my posts.

This is a false dichotomy and you know it.

Nobody is defending the homophobia.

There are people defending and attempting to gaslight people over what is a well worn racist and Islamophobic talking point.

Victims of one form of bigotry can be perpetrators of another, it's not binary.

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Thanks you!

 

[Lentic]

Also, I know plenty of Muslim people who are accepting towards LGBT folks. It's not fair to them to have their entire religion/identity labeled as hateful because some are pieces of shit.

 

[Kurdel]

Kurdel AKA Golden Pigeon II.

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Fun fact, I have been called a secret muslim more than once for simply calling out bigotry, this post isn't shocking or surprising to me.

Also, I know plenty of Muslim people who are accepting towards LGBT folks. It's not fair to them to have their entire religion/identity labeled as hateful because some are pieces of shit.

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Same.

This board talks a big game about being inclusive and intersectional, yet here we are.

 

[sirap]

Nobody is defending the homophobia.

There are people defending and attempting to gaslight people over what is a well worn racist and Islamophobic talking point.

Victims of one form of bigotry can be perpetrators of another, it's not binary.

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.

 

[Deleted member 5086]

Wow, the"Islam is an ideology" argument. That's a) not factual, and b) another actual dogwhistle.

for the record I'm queer.

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But it is...? It's a religious ideology that started 1400 years ago in a patriarchal society. Some people rightly choose to follow a progressive version of it, of course. But it is a religious ideology. I'm confused by the people who are likening it to a culture in this thread. Islam is not just a thing for brown people, either. Islam spread far and wide. Many Muslim majority countries are not Middle Eastern. Myself and my family are from Sub-Saharan Africa, for example. I have never met a Muslim who would describe Islam as their culture. Their religion and way of life, for sure. Cultures come and go, and change drastically over time. Muslims generally believe that Islam is complete and unchanging as it is the word of god, and god in Islam is described as being all-knowing and incapable of making mistakes. Unlike the Bible, there is also only one version of the Quran.

I understand the intent behind your argument, as Islamophobia is very much rooted in racism and xenophobia. But I find people sometimes go to the opposite extreme of making Islam an untouchable, sacred thing that is beyond reproach. And not going to lie, that makes me very uncomfortable too. You know that many people like myself have been oppressed under Islam, right? And you're doing us no favours by placing it on a pedestal. Religion should be scrutinised and examined from all angles. Harshly, if necessary, at times.

 

[phonicjoy]

But it is...? It's a religious ideology that started 1400 years ago in a patriarchal society. Some people rightly choose to follow a progressive version of it, of course. But it is a religious ideology. I'm confused by the people who are likening it to a culture in this thread. Islam is not just a thing for brown people, either. Islam spread far and wide. Many Muslim majority countries are not Middle Eastern. Myself and my family are from Sub-Saharan Africa, for example. I have never met a Muslim who would describe Islam as their culture. Their religion and way of life, for sure. Cultures come and go, and change drastically over time. Muslims generally believe that Islam is complete and unchanging as it is the word of god, and god in Islam is described as being all-knowing and incapable of making mistakes. Unlike the Bible, there is also only one version of the Quran.

I understand the intent behind your argument, as Islamophobia is very much rooted in racism and xenophobia. But I find people sometimes go to the opposite extreme of making Islam an untouchable, sacred thing that is beyond reproach. And not going to lie, that makes me very uncomfortable too. You know that many people like myself have been oppressed under Islam, right? And you're doing us no favours by placing it on a pedestal. Religion should be scrutinised and examined from all angles. Harshly, if necessary, at times.

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Its definitely not untouchable, I'm an atheist and I find all religion quite appalling. No one would ever call Christianity an ideology though, and for instance in Poland LGBT people are definitely being repressed by a version of Catholicism and the growing right there believe the things you just stated

these specific arguments though, are exactly what I've been hearing here for the past 10 years, through the mouths of Wilders and Thierry Baudet. They are easily parroted and seem harmless but they aim to remove protections we give to religions.

we can criticize idiots without using dogwhistles.

 

[Horp]

Progressives focus a lot on protecting marginalized groups. Giving voice to the people that have none, speak up against injustice. Here in Sweden it has become such a dominant part of leftist ideas that the Left-party (they are called exactly that) have no focus on workers/unions etc anymore - it's about protecting the marginalized.
And I think they do a great job, mostly. Them and the whole progressive movement.

There's one thing though. I really, really long for the day that progressives realize that just because muslims are marginalized in the west, islam as a religion and world institution stands for -everything- the progressives wants to change. Stop conflating criticism of islam with hate towards single muslims, cause islam DO deserve A LOT of criticism. The fact that muslims are a small and marginalized group in the west should never act as a blanket shield to this criticism, and when it comes down to a clash between religeous rights vs womens rights (for example, which it often does here in Sweden) - womens rights should of course ALWAYS come before. This is by the way something concrete where the Left-party has really struggled the last couple of years, I guess simply in fear of being in agreement with the far right. But guess what - the way women are treated under sharia law is horrible, even if the far right also says so.

 

[Morrigan]

Nobody is defending the homophobia.

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I see some that are borderline minimizing it though. Or who decide to focus on a potential dog whistle instead of the air-horn of homophobia and vitriol that she received.

No I am talking about the original video.

« I' m just saying what I think, fuck everyone who disagrees » attitude, not someone who was over emotional and impassioned by the homophobic comments from what I can see. I recognize this type of arrogance from a hundred videos I have seen here, and her apologizing to muslims who felt offended is the kind of non-apology that gets laughed out of the room in threads pertaining to other kinds or bigotry here.

I understand it's in the eye of the beholder though, but that is definitely what I see and hear when I watch the video I shared.

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Ah, I hadn't seen that one, couldn't find the link in the OP/article. Thanks.

Now that I watched the original... she does not mince words, that's for sure. But I disagree with your take that it's racist. It's edgy and vulgar and has that "lol I'm a teenager who doesn't give a fuck come at me bro lmao fuk u" trolling to it, but it's still targeted strictly at the religious ideology/text itself. It's basically an edgy teen's take on religion. I hear worse in metal lyrics (though usually about Christianity, but not always), but somehow none of those bands go viral or receive threats.

No one would ever call Christianity an ideology though

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But... it is...

 

[Doran]

doesn't this type of retaliation just solidify her statement?

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Not really, because individuals aren't representative of an entire group.

I grew up Catholic, I have met some amazing Catholics and priests who were fantastic people. The Catholic Church can also be a horrible institution that shelters pedophiles.

I would never say Catholics are all pedophiles.

I don't know if I am making sense lol

 

[Deleted member 38573]

Can only imagine how confusing and disappointing this entire exchange is for young gay muslims in France

 

[Lentic]

If you have criticism regarding religion, so be it, but do it in a more nuanced fashion rather than this inflammatory shit. Call out fundamentalists or be more specific toward what you are referring to because there is often a spectrum when it comes to religious belief and interpretation.

Believe it or not Muslims in different countries and different cultures can differ. Shocking, I know.

 

[Kurdel]

Can only imagine how confusing and disappointing this entire exchange is for young gay muslims in France

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My guess is they are used to shit being flung from all sides at this point, it's par for the course.

 

[Crimsonskies]

Not really, because individuals aren't representative of an entire group.

I grew up Catholic, I have met some amazing Catholics and priests who were fantastic people. The Catholic Church can also be a horrible institution that shelters pedophiles.

I would never say Catholics are all pedophiles.

I don't know if I am making sense lol

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I for example know many Muslims who I grew up with went to school with and graduated college with all of them amazing loving people.

The problem is when members of a religious group demand that any offensive remark about their religion is made a crime against the state, that is were I have a problem.

And that is what this debate is all about if blasphemy laws are introduced it can't be for one religion, but has to include all religions which in Frances case would be impossible given how secular their constitution is.

 

[wandering]

Islam is an ideology, not a race. Ideologies have no rights.

Also, Islam (as well as other Abrahamic religions) has some serious issues with LBGT rights. It's not exactly surprising for a LBGT person to look upon said religions very negatively, especially when openly attacked by someone who identify as a believer of such religions.

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It's not so easy to separate people and ideas. Ideologies are inculcated into individuals' identities from the moment they're born.

 

[Cripterion]

Of course it doesn't, teenagers are the product of their culture and surroundings.

I don't care about her damage control quote when this is what she said :" "I am not racist. You cannot be racist towards a religion. I said what I thought, you're not going to make me regret it."

When people tell you who they are, believe them.



I mean, you are the one with magical thinking that believes you can insult a religion into modernising itself, you tell me how that is going for you?

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C'mon man, it's really ok for anyone to say that any religion sucks if they think so. That's about all there is to it.

 

[Wrapped in Black]

Are we just gonna ignore that religion isn't just culture but far more importantly an ideology?

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This is definitely not the case, especially with Islam.

 

[Deleted member 5086]

Its definitely not untouchable, I'm an atheist and I find all religion quite appalling. No one would ever call Christianity an ideology though, and for instance in Poland LGBT people are definitely being repressed by a version of Catholicism and the growing right there believe the things you just stated

these specific arguments though, are exactly what I've been hearing here for the past 10 years, through the mouths of Wilders and Thierry Baudet. They are easily parroted and seem harmless but they aim to remove protections we give to religions.

we can criticize idiots without using dogwhistles.

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I definitely would call Christianity a religious ideology. There are some people who only single out Islam for criticism, and ignore all other faiths when criticising religion. Islamophobia is obviously the motivation there in most cases. But for example, there are plenty who criticise the Abrahamic faiths and the damage that they have caused throughout history and still today.

I agree with you about the dogwhistles, but I also wouldn't go to the opposite extreme and ignoring what Islam actually is (a set of ideas that are not based on fact, but subjective beliefs - some of which can infringe on the rights of others, as seen throughout history). I think once we lose the ability to properly criticise it, we're honestly failing a lot of marginalised people, including LGBT+ Muslims. That criticism should also be made responsibly.

 

[mxbison]

As a gay man, that's always how it works - people can criticize you on the basis of their religious beliefs, if you respond that the religion is horseshit you are labeled the bigot. Happens with any religion btw.

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This sums up religion pretty well.

Also I don't know if its funny or sad that people are being serious about 'blasphemy' in 2020.

 

[Joni]

Oh, she is one of those people.

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She gets attacked for her sexuality and then she is attacked for reacting? How is this not victim blaming?

 

[LossAversion]

Also, I know plenty of Muslim people who are accepting towards LGBT folks. It's not fair to them to have their entire religion/identity labeled as hateful because some are pieces of shit.

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Is it fair to label an entire religion hateful when the holy text of that religion condemns homosexuality and the prophet of said religion says that homosexuals should be put to death?

People can choose to ignore the "unpleasant" bits of their religion but those teachings (clearly) don't just go away and they're still harmful and they absolutely deserve to be called out.

 

[Morrigan]

If you have criticism regarding religion, so be it, but do it in a more nuanced fashion rather than this inflammatory shit.

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Sure, that's what mature people do in polite discourse, but it still shouldn't be illegal to blaspheme.

And as for her, she's an 16 year old kid who received bigotry and death threats so I can't say I care if she does not respond with "nuance". Let her blaspheme her heart out.

 

[Wrapped in Black]

EDIT: whoops

 

[Patapuf]

Are you seriously going to pretend that it's not both?

I mean I can hardly even begin to imagine the pearl clutching that would happen around here if someone said the same thing about Christianity and the fact that it's somehow not a concern when referring to Islam is *incredibly* transparent.

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Poeple shittalk Christian and clerical attitudes towards LGBT all the time to little opposition. And rightly so.

There's definetly rascists gleefully boosting this story but the critism of the religion ist not unwarranted.

Edit: also, fuck blasphemy laws. Bunch of medieval thinking.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

I see some that are borderline minimizing it though. Or who decide to focus on a potential dog whistle instead of the air-horn of homophobia and vitriol that she received.

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Nobody is minimising it either. Everybody is agreed that homophobia is unacceptable, nobody is defending the abuse she received. Nobody is justifying or dismissing death threats against a teenager. There is not going to be much of a discussion when everybody is in agreement.

On the other hand there is no shortage of people telling minorities that they're just imagining racism. "It's not racist because Islam isn't a race" has been used to justify Islamophobia since forever and its pretty fucking disgusting (but not unexpected) to see people here being dismissive.

It's just purely coincidence that Sikh guys get beaten and killed is Islamophobic attacks while Bosnian dudes don't get the same abuse.

But no nothing racist about it at all.

 

[phonicjoy]

I definitely would call Christianity a religious ideology. There are some people who only single out Islam for criticism, and ignore all other faiths when criticising religion. Islamophobia is obviously the motivation there in most cases. But for example, there are plenty who criticise the Abrahamic faiths and the damage that they have caused throughout history and still today.

I agree with you about the dogwhistles, but I also wouldn't go to the opposite extreme and ignoring what Islam actually is (a set of ideas that are not based on fact, but subjective beliefs - some of which can infringe on the rights of others, as seen throughout history). I think once we lose the ability to properly criticise it, we're honestly failing a lot of marginalised people, including LGBT+ Muslims. That criticism should also be made responsibly.

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I agree completely. We already have a word for oppressive systems of thought though: religion.

what religion doesn't also have aspects of an ideology? I personally believe the right uses the term ideology to distinguish the Islam from other religions, and avoid being seen as criticizing religion in general, offending their religious Christian base and the people who may not be religious but believe in "judeo-Christian values".

 

[Kurdel]

She gets attacked for her sexuality and then she is attacked for reacting? How is this not victim blaming?

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I am not saying she deserved any of the shit she received, how on earth can this be victim blaming? Because I am saying she was shitty here? Everyone is shit in this story.

Nobody is minimising it either. Everybody is agreed that homophobia is unacceptable, nobody is defending the abuse she received. Nobody is justifying or dismissing death threats against a teenager. There is not going to be much of a discussion when everybody is in agreement.

On the other hand there is no shortage of people telling minorities that they're just imagining racism. "It's not racist because Islam isn't a race" has been used to justify Islamophobia since forever and its pretty fucking disgusting (but not unexpected) to see people here being dismissive.

It's just purely coincidence that Sikh guys get beaten and killed is Islamophobic attacks while Bosnian dudes don't get the same abuse.

But no nothing racist about it at all.

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Yeah, there is a willingness to overlook the impact islamophobia has, and try and abstract the discussion into being vguely against all religions.

 

[Excuse me]

Oh no, think of the poor white people who just want to criticize Islam in good faith :(

"I want to blaspheme against these people specifically, please ignore any social context that can paint this in any other light than a pure freeze peach issue please"

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Yeah, because all LGBTQ people are white. There is plenty of legit criticism of all religions. Islma is no different. We have POC men and women "blaspheming" against Islam because how they were treated (wheter they were gay,abused,etc) same with Catholics.

If someone says "I'm muslim and being gay is wrong," your response shouldn't be "muslims are intolerant," it should be "you are homophobic, and shame on you for using your religion to justify your personal beliefs."

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No one person has authority of religion. So if somebody hates gays because of his religion then he is right, as is the next guy who loves everybody because of his religion. Religion is open to interpretation and nobody has 100% authority of it. I mean Islam and Catholics try but no luck so far.