Their religion taught them those beliefs.
Excellent! Unfortunately, under that twisted definition of racism, that is an attack on part of their culture and is thus racist :(
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Freedom of speech debate heats up in France after death threats to 16-year-old girl who called Islam "religion of hate"
- Thread starter DiipuSurotu
- Start date
People saying that you can't be racist against Islam would be right...if people weren't routinely profiled for looking like they believe in Islam because of racial characteristics.
I hope you understand that it isn't up to you, the speaker, to determine whether what you said was racist or not.
Islam is an ideology, not a race. Ideologies have no rights.
Also, Islam (as well as other Abrahamic religions) has some serious issues with LBGT rights. It's not exactly surprising for a LBGT person to look upon said religions very negatively, especially when openly attacked by someone who identify as a believer of such religions.
"Race" is also a made up concept, yet people suffer from it's consequences every day.
It's also very short sighted to not see how religiuos groups are an expression of human culture, and forms groups and lineages that last generations, and definitely has an ethnic aspect to it.
You want another word for systematic bigotry aimed at a specific group I am more than open to use another word, but Islamophobia is definitely rooted in a feeling of supremacy.
But she was clearly answering to a muslim who was attacking her for who she is, so this is completely irrelevant in this case.
Again, see above. She was reacting to someone attacking her. It's not like it popped out of nowhere.
Also, from the article:
I don't feel like that's someone who just want to shit on Muslims at random.
(Also OP should really have quoted this IMO)
All recent global research shows that the vast majority of practicing Muslims do indeed believe that homosexuality is wrong. Where are they all getting that particular prejudice from?
Reminds me of people who were accused of antisemitism when they're critisizing Zionism or supporting BDS.
But this....I support people's right to blaspheme whatever they want, but are you saying that it is and should be legal to discriminate people based on their religious affiliation?
But this....I support people's right to blaspheme whatever they want, but are you saying that it is and should be legal to discriminate people based on their religious affiliation?
I think it's tricky, as hating a religion is often used as a shield to attack other groups of people who are strongly identified with specific religions, or the religion is their cultural identifier. Religious intolerance has led to genocides/ethnic cleansing campaigns. I think there's a difference between criticizing, or hating, a religious teaching, philosophy, or book, and hating people that identify as part of that religion. Legislating that without giving loopholes to various hate groups is difficult.
I look forward to the advent of a non-Patriarchal Islam. Please keep us updated on how it's going.
Of course it doesn't, teenagers are the product of their culture and surroundings.
I don't care about her damage control quote when this is what she said :" "I am not racist. You cannot be racist towards a religion. I said what I thought, you're not going to make me regret it."
When people tell you who they are, believe them.
I mean, you are the one with magical thinking that believes you can insult a religion into modernising itself, you tell me how that is going for you?
It's relevant because: 1. she said it and she's wrong, and more importantly, 2. other people in this thread are saying it and they're wrong. I understand the person she's replying to is a shitheel, but ignorance should not go unchallenged.
Just that a lot of people will still interpret what you said as a racist attack, no matter how much you insist that you weren't racist.
But that's why people call out the policies of Israel, and not the Jewish religion. The latter is antisemitism, and is what's wrong with her statement. She even admitted it was vulgar and apologized.
Research shows that a majority of places outside of Europe and parts of North America are also homophobic. Homosexuality is illegal in most of Africa and across southeast Asia. Latin America has some of the highest rates of anti-LGBT violence, and even places where it's legal (like China) it's discouraged or banned to portray it.
I think at some point you should be trying to figure out where people who are accepting of homosexuality got the idea from, because we're clearly the exception to the rule.
Not sure what you're trying to say here exactly, sorry.
Keep in mind that the BBC article is missing some stuff. From a French article:
DeepL translation:
She seems pretty consistent in saying that she's criticizing the religion itself, not the people who believe in it.
You're conflating the form of discrimination that is the combination of racism and islamophobia with criticism of Islam as an ideology. Just because some people are simultaneously racist and islamophobe and discriminate people based on that doesn't mean that criticism of Islam is inherently racist.
And even the exceptions to the rule aren't particularly full of people who are decent on the issue.
I'm surprised most of you are defending her. Yes, whoever told her she was a dirty lesbian was absolutely wrong. Direct your criticism at that person. Calling out an entire religion is absolutely stupid.
Agreed
Gotta love people pretending that homophobia, sexism and racism arent part of the actual religious texts.
For me it was a combination of empathy and giving up my religion. My religion is the only thing that kept me anti-LGBTQ. I just think it's important to note that this isn't a unique feature of religion, but it is a part of many religions on a fundamental level. If your religion revolves around the teachings of someone(s) who was homophobic, sexist, racist, etc., then those characteristics are going to stick around in the religion for a very long time. The same can go for other groups that are not necessarily considered a religion, but have the same personality cult structure (like the Chinese Communist Party).
I already told me I don't buy her damage control, especially with the hate speech laws in France how dumb must she be to say ANYTHING else?
I just watched the video, this girl is unquestionably a racist piece of shit. If this video was english this thread would have a 100% different vibe.
And you're the one who appears to be to magicking away the influence of the Abrahamic religions on cultures labouring under the weight of Patriarchal prejudice ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Sorry, some people attack religions as a proxy for racist beliefs but many others firmly believe all religions are bullshit (me being one of them). If you practice your religion in your private life and are otherwise a level headed rational individual (i.e., have the ability to compartmentalize), I have no problem with that person. However, if people use their religious beliefs as a cudgel to oppress others like they have for the vast majority of human history (especially those already disadvantaged), fuck them to the moon and back. So much progress has been delayed by religious adherents in general that it will be a good day when most people around the world consider themselves secular/agnostic/atheist.
As someone who has faced Islamophobia, including violent Islamophobic abuse her entire life, I have to strongly disagree with your conclusion here. Her statement is not more idiotic than the unprovoked, hateful, oppressive and homophobic rhetoric that was levied at her. A type of hatred that is stoked by religion, and has been for millennia. If she had made a generalisation about Muslims, I could see your point. I can understand the misgivings about her statement, as such statements about Islam can stoke Islamophobia against Muslims themselves. Believe me, I've lived that. But there's also the fact that religion has historically been used as a tool to oppress. To oppress people like her, specifically. And Islam has had its hand in that. So there's far more gray area in that statement, and a victim of religious persecution lashing out at said religion with that statement, than what was said to her.
Why is it ok to call out entire ideologies but not ok if those ideologies claim to be divinely inspired?
I was going to say something that's essentially that. Religion isn't good.
Though I can understand why someone might find it racist when Islam is called out in the West.
At the end of the day, I sympathize with the kid who was called a dirty lesbian and is now enduring death threats and that's that.
Who are you even talking to? I've conflated nothing; scroll back, I've made no statement about whether she is racist at all, merely that her statement is ignorant because it is demonstrably false. You're the one confusing a rebuttal of the argument "you can't be racist towards a religion" with "criticism of Islam is inherently racist." I mean if you're going to be such a pedant after semantics, at least go after things I've actually said.
As an adult I made peace with my anti-theistic tendencies of my early 20's when I realised that nothing will change in my lifetime, and people were using religion bashing as a thinly veiled excuse to say racist shit.
Muslims are persecuted and victims of abuse all around the world, even in the West where we claim to be so inclusive and diverse. People who make a living off shitting on people already coping with a fundamentally racist culture are the scum of the earth, and I have 0 respect for them.
This story actually reminds me of that smug Covington kid.
If you just ignore a bunch of stuff, the narrative is as maleable as you want it to be.
Definitely a scary evolution of the culture war.
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That is actually a ridiculous and outrageous comparison. It's a gay teenaged girl acting alone in response to a slur. Not a peaceful protest. You are the one who is ignoring a bunch of stuff.
No, it's an apt comparison.
The whiteness, the youthfulness, the obfuscation of the bigger issues at play, how it's openly recuperated and applauded by the alt-right, I see a lot of common elements here.
Like, I absolutely don't buy framing this as only self defense of a slighted gay person and that's the end of the story. And I say that as a fellow gay who actually watched her video and speaks french.
It's a trip, honestly. This forum gleefully (and most times, rightfully) calls out entire ideologies and entire institutions, but when it's a particular religious ideology, sudden you can't paint with a broad bush anymore.
Please. This isn't neogaf manIslam is an ideology, not a race. Ideologies have no rights.
Also, Islam (as well as other Abrahamic religions) has some serious issues with LBGT rights. It's not exactly surprising for a LBGT person to look upon said religions very negatively, especially when openly attacked by someone who identify as a believer of such religions.
"Insulting the culture of brown people isnt racism because culture isnt people" is an interesting opinion to have in 2020.
But Islam (and other abrahamic religions) has a significant problem when it comes to LBGT rights. The way she went about it might've been rude sure, but there's nothing wrong with attacking a problematic ideology. If said ideology fuels hatred and discrimination toward a group of people for being who they are, then criticizing it is fair game.
It's kinda weird how progressive are being willfully blind when it comes to Islam's fundamental problems on certain issues, such as LBGT and women's rights. People just assume that any Muslim who partake in such discriminations is an isolated case and not a sign of a possibly more widespread and more deeply rooted issue.
What I'm arguing is that I think that "you can be a racist against a religion" isn't true, because the example you mentionned in your initial post ("if people weren't routinely profiled for looking like they believe in Islam because of racial characteristics. ") is a specific form of discrimination that mixes both islamphobia and racism. It's two separate things happening at once. Which is why I think she's correct when she says that you can't be racist against a religion. You can be an islamophobe, you can be a racist, you can absolutely be both at the same time, but you can't be racist against a religion. Someone who's profiling another person because "they might believe in Islam because of their racial features" isn't being racist against a religion, they're being racist and islamophobic.
This is why I agree with her and why I'm arguing that criticism of Islam is fair game and indeed not racist, which is what you initially took offence with ("People saying that you can't be racist against Islam would be right if").
Are we just gonna ignore that religion isn't just culture but far more importantly an ideology?
Are you seriously going to pretend that it's not both?
I mean I can hardly even begin to imagine the pearl clutching that would happen around here if someone said the same thing about Christianity and the fact that it's somehow not a concern when referring to Islam is *incredibly* transparent.
Oh, looks like she wrote and sang a song about this!
Can FrancEra confirm if this is a normal thing? Here in North American culture it would be seen as opportunistic and fall in line with the right wing grifters who capitalize on hate.
Is it seen otherwise in France? Like a normal and usual way people who are being cancelled expresses themselves?
Can FrancEra confirm if this is a normal thing? Here in North American culture it would be seen as opportunistic and fall in line with the right wing grifters who capitalize on hate.
Is it seen otherwise in France? Like a normal and usual way people who are being cancelled expresses themselves?
You are making the assumption that she is using Islam as a cover for black/ brown people. Given that she has made clear her problem is religions and their hatred for her way of life/ identity in general, and Islam in this particular case, that might be a step too far given that you only have your own bias to make this assumption.
And I concur with her.
Religions are shit when intruding on people's way of life/ identity, particularly when considering & judging others who do not share that same faith.
You probably shouldn't conflate Islam with brown culture. That conflation is how Hindus and Sikhs get routinely targeted in anti-muslim attacks. I get what you mean though. Like I'm not going to chastise anyone saying anything about any religion itself. But people who pretend that Islam isn't seen as as as you said "the culture of brown people" are being obtuse on purpose.
...No? I said "religion isn't just culture", not "it's not culture". However, the ideology part is arguably more important because it affects people far more directly.
Not sure what you're trying to say here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I've said that other Abrahamic religions also have problems, and I've argued that criticism of religion as an ideology is fair game. I'm not treating Islam any differently from other religions.
You wanna tell me what in the hell "brown culture" is?
Because I definitely didnt use that term.
"insulting the culture of Brown people"
Are those not your words?
Am I misunderstanding what you wrote because it's reads like you're saying Islam is part of the culture of brown people?