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Francis Ford Coppola backs Scorsese in row over Marvel films

Weltall Zero

Weltall Zero

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Oct 26, 2017
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UltraMagnus said:
What exact commentary is Iron Man 3 making on racism and xenophobia in general? It really isn't saying anything about those topics at all. A plot point is not a theme or an exploration of an issue, it's not collecting Pokemon cards and saying "see we got this too". A story has to commit to exploring a theme and it being integral to other aspects of the story for there to be any value there, it's not a "check box" of features like a video game having different features.
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If you believe that A New Hope's comment on mysticism over technology because of a five second scene at the end is "commiting to a theme", yet the central white American millionaire villain's entire plot being the use of the quintessential generic Middle East looking terrorist knowing it would be bought immediately by Americans is not a comment on xenophobia, this conversation may have run its course, sorry.

More_Badass said:
While I would agree in that regard, I would also argue that specifically A New Hope is a different animal from the MCU in their blockbuster roots. A New Hope is an underdog success story conquering cinema, a weird celebration of pulp sci-fi rooted in everything from Kurosawa and classic Arthurian legend to WW2 adventure, that somehow came together in a cohesive manner, while also being a groundbreaking visual effect milestone at the same time. Not to mention the examples of efficient visual storytelling like the opening scene.

A New Hope exists in the same pantheon as Jaws in establishing modern blockbuster cinema. Iron Man and the rest of the MCU don't have that kind of foundation. They're just blockbusters, beholden to what A New Hope cemented with its success, in simply being as well-received as it was and in showing how high-concept sci-fi and genre film can resonate with general audiences. A notion that the MCU benefits from today
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I do not dispute any of the above merits in regard to A New Hope. We were arguing specifically about movies having to be enlightening to be cinema, which A New Hope, dear to my heart as it is, is not.

At the same time, downplaying the success of the MCU to revitalize the superhero movie genre, financially if nothing else, is being the same kind of nostalgia biased that makes people feel justified in making a profound categorical difference between them and A New Hope.
 
Walter White Walker

Walter White Walker

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,508
They're just really off-base. It's like whining about a kid's movie like Toy Story because it's not mature enough. Or literature authors whining that people like reading Stephen King books. It's a big world, people can like different things for different reasons and that's ok.
 
ViewtifulJC

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,020
Best thing to come out of this is finding out this old 1997 interview with Marty and FFC talking about the state of the industry, how it differs from what they were growing up with in the 70s, how they've felt technology was negatively affecting movies, etc



Its actually great just hearing them talk about movies...like Scorsese quickly explaining mise en scene is hilarious
 
Weltall Zero

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
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Oct 26, 2017
19,343
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SlothmanAllen said:
The national film registry is one.
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You mean the same National Film Registry that doesn't accept any movie until it's ten years old at least, making a grand total of two MCU movies eligible as of this year?

Additionally, I find the notion that any film not in the registry is "not worthy of being preserved" to be incredibly dismissive of the vast majority of the medium.
 
UltraMagnus

UltraMagnus

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Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Weltall Zero said:
If you believe that A New Hope's comment on mysticism over technology because of a five second scene at the end is "commiting to a theme", yet the central white American millionaire villain's entire plot being the use of the quintessential generic Middle East looking terrorist knowing it would be bought immediately by Americans is not a comment on xenophobia, this conversation may have run its course, sorry.



I do not dispute any of the above merits in regard to A New Hope. We were arguing specifically about movies having to be enlightening to be cinema, which A New Hope, dear to my heart as it is, is not.

At the same time, downplaying the success of the MCU to revitalize the superhero movie genre, financially if nothing else, is being the same kind of nostalgia biased that makes people feel justified in making a profound categorical difference between them and A New Hope.
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Here's an easy way to see if a story is really committed to any kind of theme or saying something -- does the climax of the film actively involve the message/theme of the movie? The resolution of your damn story should damn well tie into the central point you're trying to make, if that's not there, then odds are the film is not serious about communicating much of anything.

If your ending is just "two dude's fighting" and it doesn't in any way really incorprate "themes touched on earlier" you're likely writing a thematically bankrupt script.

Sorry but this is just basic story structure, nothing fancy or special about it.

The theme of the spiritualism versus technology in Star Wars is touched on in like 6 or 7 different scenes in Star Wars and most pivotally in the climax of the film, you may think "ah that's just an accident, they slapped a bunch of events together and that's how it came out", but I think you're dead wrong on that. That's simply good story structure, plain and simple. That's not an accident.
 
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Opto

Opto

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Oct 28, 2017
4,546
All films should be preserved. Which does not mean every one gets and deserves a criterion collection.

Marvel movies are basically factory made. Every film has to be just good enough without massive deviations from the whole tone of the universe and disregard most consequences of the individual film.
 
Ichthyosaurus

Ichthyosaurus

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Dec 26, 2018
9,375
UltraMagnus said:
What exact commentary is Iron Man 3 making on racism and xenophobia in general? It really isn't saying anything about those topics at all. A plot point is not a theme or an exploration of an issue, it's not collecting Pokemon cards and saying "see we got this too". A story has to commit to exploring a theme and it being integral to other aspects of the story for there to be any value there, it's not a "check box" of features like a video game having different features.
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Iron Man 3's Mandarin was a bait and switch, since he was created to be a negative stereotype of a Middle Eastern terrorist. Xenophobia about the Mandarin was a theme in the movie, which was deconstructed in the narrative. There's a good reason the MCU never bothered having the Mandarin from the comics fight Tony in the films.
 
UltraMagnus

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Weltall Zero said:
This ridiculous and arbitrary litmus test may be the most hilarious thing I've read in the thread. Thanks for that, and as I said, we're done here.
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Having your theme (the whole point of what you're trying to convey with your story) expressed in the goddamn RESOLUTION of your film isn't a minor detail, lol. If you're not going to bring that into play in your story's climax you likely have a shit script on your hands.
 
Hydra_BE

Hydra_BE

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
913
Both Scorcese and Coppola were major players of the 70's cinema scene, so of course they would rail against perceived corporate creations like the MCU movies,
 
Wulfric

Wulfric

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,963
Damn why he gotta be like that tho

If I was an MCU director I'd be a little hurt to hear this from such an accomplished artist.
 
The Vathlonian

The Vathlonian

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Oct 27, 2017
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They're silly movies we watch for fun. There is no reason to be offended by the opinion of these masters. These movies don't challenge us in any way, ok. They don't ask us to be more than we are or cause us to be more introspective or teach us anything about empathy or the human condition. They don't even really honor the comics they're based on but they're a fun colorful half measure.
 
Dankir

Dankir

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Oct 26, 2017
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It's fine he doesn't like them and that's fine. But why does he say their despicable? Just sounds like a grumpy old guy.

Whatever.
 

Jiggy

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,270
wherever
Thorn said:
Seriously its so shitty. I can understand "I don't like this" but to call them Despicable? Like come on. Thats just being a shitty person.
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Coppola's like a massive asshole. I remember reading how he would throw these huge parties back in the day at his mansion and hook up with different women right in front of his wife. He also generally had a giant ego all the time.

He's made some of the greatest movies ever but... the dude being a dick doesn't really surprise me.
 
Vamphuntr

Vamphuntr

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Oct 25, 2017
3,301
Dankir said:
It's fine he doesn't like them and that's fine. But why does he say their despicable? Just sounds like a grumpy old guy.

Whatever.
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They can't get funding for the movies they want to make anymore because of what Hollywood wants to fund now I would guess. MCU films are extremely popular (they are pretty much now all making billions dollars at the BO) and are changing what people want to see from movies.

He's pretty mean but Apocalypse Now is still a top movie of all time for me so I'll allow it. Rewatched it last week with the 4k release and it's still amazing.
 
Mona

Mona

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Jiggy said:
This thread is wild
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Ichthyosaurus

Ichthyosaurus

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Dec 26, 2018
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Vamphuntr said:
They can't get funding for the movies they want to make anymore because of what Hollywood wants to fund now I would guess. MCU films are extremely popular (they are pretty much now all making billions dollars at the BO) and are changing what people want to see from movies.

He's pretty mean but Apocalypse Now is still a top movie of all time for me so I'll allow it. Rewatched it last week with the 4k release and it's still amazing.
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Do they know the Jurassic World and Star Wars movies made over a billion recently?
 
Toriko

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Dec 29, 2017
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BossAttack said:
Wake me when a single MCU reaches the same level as Apocalypse Now. It's one thing to disagree with Coppola, even I disagree. But to tear him down because your feelings are hurt he criticized your comic book movies is just sad. NOTHING the MCU has produced comes anywhere near his brilliant films.

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But Civil War was apparently inspired by the God Father so that means it is surely up there with the greats. Like this scene is probably the most magnificent scene ever shot on film in the last 30 years.

 
Thorn

Thorn

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Oct 25, 2017
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Toriko said:
But Civil War was apparently inspired by the God Father so that means it is surely up there with the greats. Like this scene is probably the most magnificent scene ever shot on film in the last 30 years.

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What does a post like this accomplish?

And you know a lot of us who read comics was looking forward to the civil war fight.
 
alstrike

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Aug 27, 2018
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What kind of enlightenment, knowledge or life changing experience was I supposed to get from "Bram Stoker's Dracula"?

I love almost everything he has done (not Jack, fuck that shit) but fuck me he turned his snobbishness up to 11...
 
Yams

Yams

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10,841
MistaTwo said:
Part of me wonders if these opinions are also coming from a place of bias against comic books in general.
Considering their age, and the fact that they were the golden boys of what had been established as THE medium for high art entertainment
during a time when comic books were mostly ridiculed and even demonized by the more established creative mediums it seems like a possibility.

I could definitely be wrong there, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a tinge of bias as a result of their age in this respect.

Also, didn't Coppola actually have some good things to say about Black Panther? I swear there was a story where Coogler showed him an early screening and he was positive or something....
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When these men were growing up comics books were one of the best selling and most accessible mediums in the world. they were In every market and pharmacy in the US.
They ranged from capes to horror to romance

Their criticism has nothing to do with comics. It's with the movies and how they're made
 
MistaTwo

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Oct 24, 2017
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Yams said:
When these men were growing up comics books were one of the best selling and most accessible mediums in the world. they were In every market and pharmacy in the US.
They ranged from capes to horror to romance

Their criticism has nothing to do with comics. It's with the movies and how they're made
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We aren't talking about popularity or accessibility here, but whether something is considered 'cinema' or 'high art'. That is the discussion at hand, no?

I was not alive when Scorsese and Coppala were young adults, but from what I understand comics were never seen as a 'serious' medium by the more established industries such as cinema, especially during the prime years of these two directors. A lot of that criticism came from the fact that as you say above, they were basically the go-to media for pulp fiction and not what most would consider legitimate literature.

I also don't understand where all these generous takes are coming from. What concrete analysis did he give to explain his issues with how they are made?
Scorsese's comment at least had some sense of nuance where he likened them to a theme park experience, but Coppola comes out and says that is generous and starts legit name-calling. Haha.
 
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Software Update

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Oct 27, 2017
1,227
Coppola and Scorsese are just old. At this point, this is Hollywood's version of "kids these days".

I hope I never become this out of touch when I'm old.
 

Deleted member 40797

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Their comments don't seem that complicated. They are saying that despite the fact that both produced movies using the medium of film, the projects they are engaged in - cinema on the one hand, whatever Marvel movies are on the other - are different endeavors. This form of elitism is perfectly acceptable and germane - we distinguish between art and canvases that happen to be covered in acrylic paints, in the same way we distinguish between music and happenstance arrangements of sound. They are making a perfectly sensible distinction.
 
MistaTwo

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quickly said:
Their comments don't seem that complicated. They are saying that despite the fact that both produced movies using the medium of film, the projects they are engaged in - cinema on the one hand, whatever Marvel movies are on the other - are different endeavors. This form of elitism is perfectly acceptable and germane - we distinguish between art and canvases that happen to be covered in acrylic paints, in the same way we distinguish between music and happenstance arrangements of sound. They are making a perfectly sensible distinction.
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Except the fact that none of those analogies apply at all to this situation... so I am just gonna assume this is a troll.

It sounds like you are claiming that the production of Marvel movies is the equivalent of a toddler banging away on a keyboard in a toy store. Even Scorsese commented that he still considers them well made, and the reality is that no matter how many people on the internet say they are 'made by a factory', the fact remains that they are the work of hundreds--sometimes thousands-- of creators in differing fields.
 
Yams

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Oct 25, 2017
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ViewtifulJC said:
Best thing to come out of this is finding out this old 1997 interview with Marty and FFC talking about the state of the industry, how it differs from what they were growing up with in the 70s, how they've felt technology was negatively affecting movies, etc



Its actually great just hearing them talk about movies...like Scorsese quickly explaining mise en scene is hilarious
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I think a lot of people in this thread should watch this. These mean saw were the art was going and they were right
 
The Silver

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Oct 28, 2017
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Can't wait for the next thread, media must be scrambling to get the next hot headline from some old filmmaker saying they don't like the MCU. The buzz of Joker ending the world in a hailstorm of mass shootings has fizzled out so you gotta capitalize on this.

We need to hold a seance so we can get Kubrick's hot take on the MCU.
 
Punjabi_Hitman

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Nov 30, 2017
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And in the end all he sounds like is a whiny cry baby. Gained nothing out of saying what he said, other than backlash from fanboys. Like what does he even think he'll gain out of saying anything?

People who watch these films know they aren't high art films. Like point me to one person that has ever claimed that. They are a good time at the movies that's it. This isn't Ike in their day when it was a buck to see a movie. Movies cost $20 to see. And I prefer to spend that on a theme park ride than something I can watch at home that doesn't add anything watching it on a big screen.
 
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