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Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,309
That's a mess. I understand issuing Eurobonds is a burden to all member states, but surly this is better than throwing Spain and Italy into financial ruin, which then hurts the population of those two nations.

I know Von der Leyen has confirmed a 100 billion euros would be sent to the hardest hit member states, starting with Italy, but by the sound of it this isn't going to fully help and Italy still want the bonds.

What a mess.
Italy wants the bonds because it would mean they would share debt with the northern countries which will reduce their interest.

The actual usefulness in this situation is debatable because ECB is pumping so much money into med bonds interest rates have changed very little compared to before the pandemic started.

It is not even a burden. You could use the north's credit worthyness but have the south be the only one receiving and paying back. It would cost the north nothing if the south pays back.
And what is nice is that other countries are calling out the Dutch's slow response to the corona-crisis. The Dutch were simply irresponsible with the lives of their citizens, and are still even to this day considering the lack of closing non-essential stores to avoid having to pay those stores compensation.
That's not completely true as northerners would have to pay higher interest as they're directly secure southern debt worthiness and expose themselves to higher risk.
 

AmFreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,506
The Netherlands's Finance Minister called us "irresponsible" for not stockpiling medical material, but we and Italy are the only countries that don't cook the numbers. Everyone who dies in ICU having Covid counts as a death by Covid, even if it was by heart failure or any other.
Everyone counts them like this.
The real differentiator is the amount of tests you are doing, the less tests the more unknown cases you have and the more cases in a critical condition you will get, because those are the first ones who will get tested, so your fatality rate rises.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
That's not completely true as northerners would have to pay higher interest as they're directly secure southern debt worthiness and expose themselves to higher risk.
These countries are at negative interests. A small bump would still make it neutral for their own debts.
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,906
As others have pointed out, they refuse to issue Eurobonds. It's understandable as it adds burden to everyone in the EU, but it forces Spain and Italy to go to the rescue fund (the same used by Greece), which we already know how it works: men in black, big cuts in social spending, depressed economy, loss of sovereignty and dignity. Spain already went to it in 2011 to prevent banks from defaulting, if we go back again, our grandchildren will be still paying the debt in 2060 while being poor.
You are confusing Eurobonds with the new idea of Corona-Bonds.

Right now every EU country can access the European Stability Mechanism (ESM) and get funds from the European Central Bank (ECB) as well. The ECB has overwritten its deficits critera due to the crisis which means that every EU country can get those cheap funds - no matter their financial status - and also that there won't be "men in black" as you call it. Also note that all EU countries are liable together for these funds. It is basically what the Eurobonds idea from 10 years ago wanted to be.

But you are talking about the new concept of "Corona-Bonds". The countries are arguing about the way how to fund these bonds. Basically one side wants to access funds without the liability of having to pay them back while the other side wants to have financial regulations when they have to share (or pay off) the debt from others. Also the "richer" countries would have to pay higher interests for their own loans on top of that. But it's mostly about the disagreement of whether or not there should be a basic liability if you take a loan.

tl;dr: the main difference between Eurobonds and Corona-Bonds (right now) is that you have to pay back the first one someday while you could #yolo the other one.
 
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Lishi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,284
These countries are at negative interests. A small bump would still make it neutral for their own debts.

They should do it because it's the right thing to do, but honestly i'm playing the moralist with other people wallet.

I left Italy because due big part because i was pretty sure they would just waste my taxdollar on anything, so if i wanted a better future i should go somewhere else.

not wasted on healthcare, that was pretty good, at least in the north.

Like helping your financially stupid cousin that wasted all it's money on hooker and drugs, but this time due a car incident it actually need money for a good cause, you know it's the right thing to do, but it's also understandable you want some condition to help.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,648
Xando I admire your patience, I really do.

I love how some people warn of the "right wing populists" getting stronger by... using right wing populist rhetoric. Just rich.
 

Sabin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,616
Perhaps they think of this kind of seizing:
mod edit:misinformation removed

Can we not link Russian state sponsored propaganda please?

Yep, happens when barely any mod is from here. The amount of right wing anti EU propaganda bullshit I read here without anything being done is kinda crazy.

Indeed, there is pretty much every 1 or 2 day someone who questions the Corona numbers of Germany as an example. Its getting really tiresome at some point.
 
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Patapuf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,414
European solidarity was definetly strained in this pandemic.


We've had generous acts of kindness but there were also plenty of stunts like this.

I hope there'll be steps to improve this after this is all over. The union needs solidarity to work.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,309
Xando I admire your patience, I really do.

I love how some people warn of the "right wing populists" getting stronger by... using right wing populist rhetoric. Just rich.
As long as people don't argue with fake news I don't have a problem with patience. I still think in the end most of us have the same goal of a highly integrated europe. Even if opinions defer on certain topics.

I think it's a mistake to have a narrow view on euro(or corona)bonds. As I said with the ECB pumping unlimited money into med bonds they're less relevant than they maybe were in 2010.

As sanchez said at first maybe we should look into something completely new. The commission fund for short work is a good start but i would like to see something like a marshall fund 2.0 handled by the commission (outside of council influence).
 

Navidson REC

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,424
No, but I don't see the EU ever being the same after this, especially since I thought its entire purpose was to prevent shit like this from happening.
Yeah, I'm a huge proponent of the idea behind the EU but things went seriously wrong this time. I really hope this won't have lasting effects on freedom of movement and a shared European identity (although there's lots of damage already done for sure but I don't think it's irreversible yet).
 

Ryu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
There's a lot of stuff to rethink. But outrage can't be based on inaccurate or outright disinformation, specially in an extreme situation that is changing dramatically every day. Saying " Germany has been stealing medical supplies from other countries for weeks... " is inaccurate at best.
And given the level of disinformation on this thread don't be surprised accusations of users being russian troll bots start popping up.

What? I didn't talk about Germany. Whoever brought that up, if it's right or not, I don't know. In the case of France we have a reliable source, so there is enough reason to sit together later and talk about stuff that happened. I live in Europe, I love the idea of the EU, but it's disgusting what a top european country like France is doing in cases like this. Just because I love the EU will never hold me back to state proper criticism. The EU is far from perfect, as is everything, as is the USA, but it will always be better than nothing, so let's talk about it rather than having an outrage, or on the other hand being blind for critics.
 

Tremorah

Member
Dec 3, 2018
4,952
tenor.gif


EU as united as ever, fucking hell
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
Yesterday it was the US and 2 months ago I recall China did the same to the US turning a ship bound for the US around as well as nationalizing a us owned factory making masks

In terms of seizing supplies before they Re delivered can someone who works in procurement tell me if this is Just people paying more getting their orders filled sooner rather than theft ?
 

Deleted member 2328

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,354
What? I didn't talk about Germany. Whoever brought that up, if it's right or not, I don't know. In the case of France we have a reliable source, so there is enough reason to sit together later and talk about stuff that happened. I live in Europe, I love the idea of the EU, but it's disgusting what a top european country like France is doing in cases like this. Just because I love the EU will never hold me back to state proper criticism. The EU is far from perfect, as is everything, as is the USA, but it will always be better than nothing, so let's talk about it rather than having an outrage, or on the other hand being blind for critics.
The post you were replying to was calling out the user who did. I was trying to give context why disinformation can trigger an "aggressive" reaction, as you put it.
Nobody is asking to give the EU a free pass. The EU is an ongoing project and far from perfect. Episodes such as this are example of that. But outrage and criticism has to be based facts and reliable and up to date information.
 
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hobblygobbly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,569
NORDFRIESLAND, DEUTSCHLAND
lmao at the blatant anti eu fake news in this thread

do we have european mods? i don't expect american mods to know everything going on in europe, but if there aren't european mods, might be a good idea to have some
 

Tuppen

Member
Nov 28, 2017
2,053
Yeah, Germany and the Netherlands have already told us we can go fuck ourselves once the medical crisis is over and the economic disaster kicks in in full force.

And this is why the extreme right keeps fishing votes. I can see Vox being second force in Spain for the next round of elections. Everyone will ask what purpose the EU serves if we don't share the burden, and the far right will give this answer: only to bolster Germany's and northern countries economies.
If you don't want the money from the countries that are net contributors then perhaps you should leave. I'd like you stay but yelling at northern European nations that they should pay more or else won't work. It seems unlikely that any country that receives more than they pay will leave willingly.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,359
If you don't want the money from the countries that are net contributors then perhaps you should leave. I'd like you stay but yelling at northern European nations that they should pay more or else won't work. It seems unlikely that any country that receives more than they pay will leave willingly.

Some posters who "argue" for the end of the EU to get out of the tyrannical EU led by the northern states don't seem to understand that an end to the EU would just mean a newly created northern/central/baltic EU without the south and east.

Now the southern states can depreciate their currency and maybe get the competitiveness going again. And they will suddenly realize that their new PS5 will cost 3 to 5 times as much without a complimenting rise in wages (in contrast to inflation, your wage doesn't rise with the import prices on goods when you depreciate your currency, who would have thought)
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,082
Some posters who "argue" for the end of the EU to get out of the tyrannical EU led by the northern states don't seem to understand that an end to the EU would just mean a newly created northern/central/baltic EU without the south and east.

Now the southern states can depreciate their currency and maybe get the competitiveness going again. And they will suddenly realize that their new PS5 will cost 3 to 5 times as much without a complimenting rise in wages (in contrast to inflation, your wage doesn't rise with the import prices on goods when you depreciate your currency, who would have thought)
On the other hand, all the advantages that Northern Europe gets due to the Southern countries (a much bigger market, brain drain, ability to have an undervalued currency) will also evaporate. The whole thing is a two wawy street where we both need the other.
The EU as it is right now is half way done and the current set up has a natural advantage to the northern European countries that started on a better position as their currency is undervalued in comparison with what should be while in southern countries the currency is overvalued. The lack of significant ways to reschufle the money (or avoid the creation of defacto fiscal paradises such as in Ireland or Netherland) was supposed to be only temporary, not the semi permanent state that it is right now.

Southern Europe is not asking for Northen Europe to pay up for everything. Southern Europe only wants to be treated with some fucking respect and not to be insulted in every single turn by Holland (the event by Holland is not a first but rather a constant thing were southern europeans are treated as poor lazy bums that know no better). Southern Europe doesnt want to have to go through another austerity period that will kill their economy again while the northern better off countries just shacke it off like in the great recession.

Southern Europe tends to have some of the lowest levels of eurosceptism in the EU and has been always proEU and pro further integration despite not being treated in the best way possible. Perhaps it is time for northern european countries to actually make more concessions to southern Europe.
Edit: a ton of people could understand the treatment during the great recession (it was partly our fault) but the treatment during a "wtf just happened-noone is guilty" is really not a good thing.
 
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megateto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
104
Somewhat off-topic: this is pretty damning for the Spanish government as it shows that it was stockpiling before it suspended all mass events on the 9th of March despite official claims of a sudden and unexpected change of circumstances.

If conservatives had a brain, they could lay waste to the current government with no effort once everything is said and done.

How can it be possible that this is the first time I see some kind of proof of the Spanish government taking any kind of measure before shit hit the fan? I recall a top police officer mentioning that they were getting ready, but nothing solid from Sánchez&Co.
 

Untzillatx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,375
Basque Country
Yeah, I'm a huge proponent of the idea behind the EU but things went seriously wrong this time. I really hope this won't have lasting effects on freedom of movement and a shared European identity (although there's lots of damage already done for sure but I don't think it's irreversible yet).

This time? Things in the EU seem to go wrong every time there's a crisis of any kind: 2008 crisis, migrant crisis, Ukraine, now this.
 

Funky Papa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,694
How can it be possible that this is the first time I see some kind of proof of the Spanish government taking any kind of measure before shit hit the fan? I recall a top police officer mentioning that they were getting ready, but nothing solid from Sánchez&Co.
Cheerful reminder that Sanchez offered Podemos the Ministry of Healthcare during the first round of negotiations for a coalition and Iglesias rejected it because he thought it was useless and hollowed out by the devolved powers of autonomous regions.

There's an alternate timeline in which Echenique is in charge of this mess.
 

sapien85

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,427
What this shows to me is that none of these countries had been stockpiling enough masks for a major pandemic. Also there should be legal requirements to have more local manufacturing of medical supplies like this in the future maybe by the governments themselves. Can't believe how unprepared all countries appear after so many years of warnings about a major pandemic, especially of the respiratory kind.