Foundation (Apple TV+) - Jared Harris Goes to Space... Again [SEE STAFF POST]

[degauss]

People don't like Salvor or her scenes? I think they're fine, even though I'd rather see what Day , Dawn and now Gaal are up too. This is an all around super enjoyable show with some ideas for its universe that I think are really creative. Some of the aesthetics reminds me of the recent Dune movie.

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Disagree, huge quality gulf between this and dune asthetically. And probably not dissimilar budgets, which is shocking. Dune looked stellar, Foundation shocks me with how much it's like a by the numbers Star Trek spin off.

Dune had amazing establishing shots and special effects, brilliant casting, flair, artistry, amazing sets, custumes, design, a good script and good acting.

Foundation has its merits. Lee Pace as the emperor, and the clever clone dynasty, some decent costumes, some ok sets, Jared Harris, Gaal is very good, but that's about it.

It's tough becuse the book (I only read the first one) is probably far more unfilmable and less good overal then dunes first book.

I agree with others on Salvor, either terrible or just wildly miscast. I just don't buy anything that character/actor is selling me.

That said, I don't hate it, im watching it, I just wouldn't recommend it to anyone at this point.

 

[nampad]

For how bad this is, I am still watching it because the backstory interests me.
Guess I should just read the books instead.

 

[iosefe]

the only way they can salvage the series is to ditch Salvor completely.

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I will say at this rate, Salvors will role in the story will be completed by the middle of next season, if not at this end of this season

 

[MadMod]

Episode 7 was good, after the last few being pretty much boring. Totally agree with everyone that the Empire story is the best, Salvor storyline was literally a 1/10 until this latest episode.

There were some really great shots in this episodes, defo got mass effect vibes from the final shot.

Hugo definitely did that on purpose too. Otherwise they'd have made a bigger deal out of it, Salvor literally didn't seem impacted by it at all in the next scenes. 😂

Agree with the post that the Hari/Gaal storyline should have all just been part of an episode, instead of split up into small irritating pieces.

Overall it's been getting better again and I hope these last few episodes really push the story, as I'll be deciding whether to watch season 2 based off them.

 

[-Hyperion-]

For how bad this is, I am still watching it because the backstory interests me.
Guess I should just read the books instead.

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I'm reading the first one now. They're very of their time. Lots of smoking, radio sets, microfilms, newspapers. Even things like having to ask service staff to recommend hotels after landing at an airport stand out. Everyone talks in the same "I say, old sport, the blighters have put one over us" transatlantic way. When I picture the scenes in my head they have the same image and sound quality as Goldfinger and other films of that era.

So far it has as many ties to the TV series as the Bourne Identity books have with their films.

 

[Quinton]

I thought nearly everything worked in the most recent episode. I say nearly everything because the editing was super-choppy at times. I don't get distracted easily by that stuff, but wow. Oh well.

I really love Brother Dawn. ;_;

Honestly, with two seasons yet to come,

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What do you mean by this? The creator wants eight seasons, and last I checked, only one more season has been greenlit for now. So, I don't understand the "two seasons to come" in either regard.

 

[Nooblet]

Having a person be able to see/sense the future goes completely against the idea of Psychohistory.
More importantly psychohistory working on singular individuals down to what they should be doing at a certain time is also not something that should happen, infact this very show said that shouldn't be possible at one point if I remember it correctly.

Gaal and Empire stuff remain strong parts of the show and a total opposite of the Terminus story, which is a by the numbers story. Regarding brother Dawn, I think what will happen is that the fixer guy will kill the girlfriend at Dusk's order and then Dawn will either kill himself or end up just pretending to be the perfect clone. Either ways I don't see the girlfriend surviving, haven't seen a more "this person is going to die" character than her in any show..lol

 

[Jardim]

I thought nearly everything worked in the most recent episode. I say nearly everything because the editing was super-choppy at times. I don't get distracted easily by that stuff, but wow. Oh well.

I really love Brother Dawn. ;_;



What do you mean by this? The creator wants eight seasons, and last I checked, only one more season has been greenlit for now. So, I don't understand the "two seasons to come" in either regard.

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For some reason I thought there were two more seasons already greenlit, my bad

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Me : Please don't make the space Persians suicide bombers…..

"We're going to jump the Invictus into the heart of the planet"

GAAHHHH

 

[Daneel_O]

Another thing the stood out to me is they don't seem to have any interesting arc in mind for Demerzel, which is a pity. I get that going into the full extent of the Asimov character and/or robot shenanigans was probably out of scope, but right now she is nothing more than an Easter egg a bit like the Spacers

 

[Sandstar]

I'm reading the first one now. They're very of their time. Lots of smoking, radio sets, microfilms, newspapers. Even things like having to ask service staff to recommend hotels after landing at an airport stand out. Everyone talks in the same "I say, old sport, the blighters have put one over us" transatlantic way. When I picture the scenes in my head they have the same image and sound quality as Goldfinger and other films of that era.

So far it has as many ties to the TV series as the Bourne Identity books have with their films.

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You read a very different foundation than I did.

 

[BossAttack]

Learning that different writing teams handled different plotlines makes a whole lot of sense. It feels like there is this awesome show dealing with Empire, Trantor, and all that cool shit. And then we got this stupid ass shit with Salvor and this mildly interesting, but kinda just petering around, plot with Selvig and The Foundation.

Having a person be able to see/sense the future goes completely against the idea of Psychohistory.
More importantly psychohistory working on singular individuals down to what they should be doing at a certain time is also not something that should happen, infact this very show said that shouldn't be possible at one point if I remember it correctly.

Gaal and Empire stuff remain strong parts of the show and a total opposite of the Terminus story, which is a by the numbers story. Regarding brother Dawn, I think what will happen is that the fixer guy will kill the girlfriend at Dusk's order and then Dawn will either kill himself or end up just pretending to be the perfect clone. Either ways I don't see the girlfriend surviving, haven't seen a more "this person is going to die" character than her in any show..lol

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Oh yeah, she's definitely dead. Dawn killed their own painter because he just read some of Harry's work.

 

[Midnight Lunch]

Learning that different writing teams handled different plotlines makes a whole lot of sense. It feels like there is this awesome show dealing with Empire, Trantor, and all that cool shit. And then we got this stupid ass shit with Salvor and this mildly interesting, but kinda just petering around, plot with Selvig and The Foundation.

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I actually forgot where Brother Day was going in a previous episode and thought he was travelling to Terminus. That would have been interesting.

 

[Kyougar]

Anyone remember that highly important Vault on the Planet? That thing that isn't mentioned for the last several episodes.

So many issues with the Terminus plotline could have been solved if the characters weren't complete idiots, but the biggest issue at all (well, if we forget all the previous fuckups that led us to this point) is the Vault that knocks people out and Salvor NOT doing a slow fly-by with the ship to knock everyone on the ship out. The troops on the planet wouldn't even know anything happened to the people on the ship and Salvor could just lazily tie up all enemies on the ship.

 

[iosefe]

Hunter lady probably wouldn't let her do a fly by and would interrupt and make sure the ship doesn't go that way if she could

 

[Mars]

Anyone remember that highly important Vault on the Planet? That thing that isn't mentioned for the last several episodes.

So many issues with the Terminus plotline could have been solved if the characters weren't complete idiots, but the biggest issue at all (well, if we forget all the previous fuckups that led us to this point) is the Vault that knocks people out and Salvor NOT doing a slow fly-by with the ship to knock everyone on the ship out. The troops on the planet wouldn't even know anything happened to the people on the ship and Salvor could just lazily tie up all enemies on the ship.

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Sure but then how would they take out the small army holding everyone on the settlement hostage? …especially once they realize their leader is down.

 

[Kyougar]

Hunter lady probably wouldn't let her do a fly by and would interrupt and make sure the ship doesn't go that way if she could

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they were near the Vault when they flew into space. We know from the buggy ride that the unconsciousness is not time exposure but distance, it shouldn't take more than a few seconds and they were already near the vault.

Sure but then how would they take out the small army holding everyone on the settlement hostage? …especially once they realize their leader is down.

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- they have their leader and sub-leader hostage on the ship
- the ship is the only way from the planet
- the ship is the only way to the planet-destroyer, their raison d'etre
- you don't negotiate with terrorists that want to kill trillions

And most of all: ( I summon the book hammer, don't even read the Foundation yet)
Salvor is described as that badass negotiator and peacemaker in the books that can solve interplanetary issues with ease and without violence.

And if you are not badass to solve it with brains, just:
Tell them that the only way that their planet will not get bombed into the stone age again is if they surrender, if they massacre the foundation settlement, the Empire will completely wipe out their planet.

 

[Kinthey]

Having a person be able to see/sense the future goes completely against the idea of Psychohistory.
More importantly psychohistory working on singular individuals down to what they should be doing at a certain time is also not something that should happen, infact this very show said that shouldn't be possible at one point if I remember it correctly.

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That's pretty odd to me too, or at least that none of the characters so far have brought up that contradiction. Suddenly psychohistory seems to be all about individuals.

Also a bit funny that the show started off with the more grounded idea of predicting the future through math, and now we have two characters who seem to magically predict the future anyway.

 

[D.Dragoon]

Me : Please don't make the space Persians suicide bombers…..

"We're going to jump the Invictus into the heart of the planet"

GAAHHHH

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Is that what they said? I thought they were gonna blast Trantor with Invictus' guns.

 

[SofNascimento]

Oopsie doosie.

 

[blackhawk163]

they were near the Vault when they flew into space. We know from the buggy ride that the unconsciousness is not time exposure but distance, it shouldn't take more than a few seconds and they were already near the vault.



- they have their leader and sub-leader hostage on the ship
- the ship is the only way from the planet
- the ship is the only way to the planet-destroyer, their raison d'etre
- you don't negotiate with terrorists that want to kill trillions

And most of all: ( I summon the book hammer, don't even read the Foundation yet)
Salvor is described as that badass negotiator and peacemaker in the books that can solve interplanetary issues with ease and without violence.

And if you are not badass to solve it with brains, just:
Tell them that the only way that their planet will not get bombed into the stone age again is if they surrender, if they massacre the foundation settlement, the Empire will completely wipe out their planet.

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Omg all of this. I was having a discussion with my wife hitting pretty much the same points you did. Then going further saying that the hostages on the ship going to the invictus aren't hostages at all. They hold all the cards. Especially once the huntress does what she does after the doors are opened to the invictus. She's shown that once you fulfill your role, you're dead.

Who is going to negotiate with that? It's so stupid I was actually yelling at the TV.

For a society that's supposed to be so smart they sure are stupid.

Then again the pandemic shows us just how infantile we are as a species.

 

[BossAttack]

Omg all of this. I was having a discussion with my wife hitting pretty much the same points you did. Then going further saying that the hostages on the ship going to the invictus aren't hostages at all. They hold all the cards. Especially once the huntress does what she does after the doors are opened to the invictus. She's shown that once you fulfill your role, you're dead.

Who is going to negotiate with that? It's so stupid I was actually yelling at the TV.

For a society that's supposed to be so smart they sure are stupid.

Then again the pandemic shows us just how infantile we are as a species.

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What killed me was the Captain making it to the door all alone, opening it up, and then just waiting to be shot. Like dude, RUN! Go find the ship transmitter you were talking about.

 

[Kyougar]

What killed me was the Captain making it to the door all alone, opening it up, and then just waiting to be shot. Like dude, RUN! Go find the ship transmitter you were talking about.

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I hope the Empire has Ressurection technology so that they can resurrect that dude and court marshal him.

That dude should have killed himself three times over. He is the only person in the whole region who could let the terrorists on the ship.
- when he learned of the Planet Killer Ship
- when he had absolute proof that the terrorists would use it against his nation
- or at least do a Hugo and pretend to drift off and just use another entry

And what kind of automated defense system just stops shooting when an authorized person opens the door? What if he was chased? There should be at least another action needed to stop the defense mechanism.

 

[BossAttack]

I hope the Empire has Ressurection technology so that they can resurrect that dude and court marshal him.

That dude should have killed himself three times over. He is the only person in the whole region who could let the terrorists on the ship.
- when he learned of the Planet Killer Ship
- when he had absolute proof that the terrorists would use it against his nation
- or at least do a Hugo and pretend to drift off and just use another entry

And what kind of automated defense system just stops shooting when an authorized person opens the door? What if he was chased? There should be at least another action needed to stop the defense mechanism.

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I didn't even think about that. If he knew the system would only operate without him authorizing it, then shouldn't he have killed himself? These Imperial dudes seem pretty blindly loyal to Empire, so it's not an unreasonable response. Instead he seemed more concerned with his own safety.

 

[Kyougar]

I didn't even think about that. If he knew the system would only operate without him authorizing it, then shouldn't he have killed himself? These Imperial dudes seem pretty blindly loyal to Empire, so it's not an unreasonable response. Instead he seemed more concerned with his own safety.

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that's the whole issue with Foundation or primarily the Terminus storyline. People do stupid things so that the plot that the writers want, but don't know how to intelligently and logically write, can advance.

 

[subrock]

I think the whole thing about the books that was so alluring is that the characters would do almost the opposite of what each scenario required and with some mental judo it would end up being the perfect solution to their present insoluble situation. The fact that they couldn't craft scenarios like that with a blank slate and this whole incredible universe to play with is just lazy/bad writing

 

[-Hyperion-]

What killed me was the Captain making it to the door all alone, opening it up, and then just waiting to be shot. Like dude, RUN! Go find the ship transmitter you were talking about.

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I went back and checked and he really does wait for everyone to stand and dust themselves off before joining him at the airlock. He could have stepped inside, sealed the airlock, and sent his message. It's not like the three Terminus settlers' lives could mean anything to him over this.

 

[BossAttack]

that's the whole issue with Foundation or primarily the Terminus storyline. People do stupid things so that the plot that the writers want, but don't know how to intelligently and logically write, can advance.

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Just give me Lee Pace show and delete the rest.

 

[SofNascimento]

Just give me Lee Pace show and delete the rest.

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S2 should be one huge flashback showing the original Cleon.

 

[ostrichKing]

Just give me Lee Pace show and delete the rest.

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I'll watch anything with Lee Pace.

 

[Kyougar]

S2 should be one huge flashback showing the original Cleon.

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They can just continue the timeline with Lee Pace's Cleon as the main protagonist who got IMMORTAL immortal because he is colorblind. Terminus was destroyed and it falls to him to guide Humanity through the dark ages.

 

[BossAttack]

I'll watch anything with Lee Pace.

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Man really knows how to chew scenery.

 

[Hambulance]

 

[Gangster Gastino]

This show is such an affront to the book that it's almost laughable. If it were different but well done I could stomach it and still eek out enjoyment but it's awful in every other facet bar the visuals (and Lee Pace).

It's like Patrick Batemen: Aesthetically flawless but horrible beneath the surface.

 

[Tigel]

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😂 that's pretty accurate.
Hopefully they revamp their Terminus writing team for season 2.

 

[infiniteloop]

seems like it's doing pretty well.

 

[Tigel]

This week's episode was really good. It was mostly Empire stuff, but still.

 

[Nooblet]

This week's episode was really good. It was mostly Empire stuff, but still.

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Really solidified Day as a top manipulator.
I don't quite get Day to be honest, at times he comes across as understanding and mindful. It was Dusk who came across as egotistical and with a God complex. Day originally seemed to be different, somewhat sincere even at times. You see him help that old man, you see him hold onto Demrezel's salt bracelet for strength (unless there was an ulterior motive I missed), and even if this whole walk was a power play he committed to it fully. He even called out Dusk for basically letting things go to shit during his reign, and we see Day when he was young being scared and afraid, now we see him cry for not having a vision. And yet he's ruthless, manipulative, and the more insidious kind of egotistical.

But it seems Dawn is the only one who is truly different, and think about more than just themseleves. Maybe Brother Darkness too once he had his epiphany after the star bridge destruction.

 

[VeryHighlander]

I've been waiting for this kind of episode the whole time. That was pretty good!

 

[Keyframe]

seems like it's doing pretty well.

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Good to see I am not the only one enjoying Invasion like I originally thought.

 

[degauss]

This show is such an affront to the book that it's almost laughable. If it were different but well done I could stomach it and still eek out enjoyment but it's awful in every other facet bar the visuals (and Lee Pace).

It's like Patrick Batemen: Aesthetically flawless but horrible beneath the surface.

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I've only read the first book but I would say it's unfilmable and they had to make changes. (Not that I'm loving the show)

I disagree with asthetically flawless. Dune was asthetically flawless. Foundation is far from
that.

 

[SquirrelSaysNuts]

Last episode's lava post-explosion looked quite tv budget special effects compared to the rest of the show.

 

[Morzak]

Man why call that show Foundation, the longer it goes on the less it has anything outside of Names in common with the original work, I agree that it was basically unfilmable without big changes, but basically gutting the whole of Terminus and also having the second Foundation established somewhere else is stupid. Not to speak about totally ignoring how Robots can behave in that Universe..... It's just sad, I hope that we get at least some character Development from Brother Days trip, else that was just useless time spent....

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Not to speak about totally ignoring how Robots can behave in that Universe..... It's just sad, I hope that we get at least some character Development from Brother Days trip, else that was just useless time spent....

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Wiping their butt with the three laws of robotics tells me they don't give a fuck about Asimov's work

 

[Voltaire]

They really do everything they can to make anything but the empire stuff dreadful. Gaal wakes up in time to meet Hari again and get a prediction she's gonna get hit by a rock then she decides to let the second foundation die and fuck off for a hundred and thirty years because ... why? I mean the terminus stuff is godawful but shit happens at least, Gaal is just there for exposition purposes.

I have now for the first time in my life entered a hate-watching phase. Didn't think it could happen and especially not because of an adaptation of the works of Isaac Asimov.

 

[Kyougar]

Great... Now we are at the "smash-the-monitor-so-the-computer-dies" phase.

No wonder that the Empire is falling, when their ships get taken out by a puny shot from an AA gun or go into catastrophic failure when someone smashes a glass panel inside the ship.

Of course Hugo didn't die.
And unless there were stealth monitoring ships/satellites above brother Day on the walk, his advisors and Bodyguards should be fired for neglection of duty.
And they didn't need to spell out that he was faking the vision, it was obvious. Let the internet detectives "figure it out" and make the fallout of this a part of the narrative of later episodes.

On to Gaal... I already mentioned the monitor = catastrophic failure thing, but what the hell Gaal. What is your point? Why are you (still) in this story. Why are you sabotaging the second Foundation? What is the point of going back to your home planet? Your "funny feelings"? If your feelings told you to get out of the ship, on what information do you act to get back to your home planet? Was it a "go back home" feeling? Maybe it was just homesickness, but then you abandon the future of mankind just to go home...
And the acting on the "OPEN THE DOOR! part was just awful.

 

[Nooblet]

Asimov's 2nd Law would prevent Demerezel from causing any harm to Halima. So she could disobey if the writers knew what they were doing. Gaal is just around doing nothing, other than exist in different times.

I've only read the first book but I would say it's unfilmable and they had to make changes. (Not that I'm loving the show)

I disagree with asthetically flawless. Dune was asthetically flawless. Foundation is far from
that.

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Eh there's plenty to flaw in Dune's visuals as well. For one it has a very Brutalist aesthetic that is not faithful to the books and is typical of Denis' style instead. Which in itself is not a flaw but that kind of look does make me go "that looks impractical", like sparse large rooms with two chairs and one table to the side and very little of anything else just makes me feel like this place is unlived, it doesn't make me feel "Yea it seems like humans live here and go about their day to day lives". The rooms look like they are only lit using glowglobes and partially by sunlight despite the castle having plenty of sunlight passing through the ceiling etc (which is how Denis designed the castle to be like). The colour palette is also excessively muted even in areas where you expect colour and night scenes are excessively dark because of the same reason.

Basically, there's plenty to fault both Dune and Foundation. I prefer Foundation's look to Dune, you prefer Dune's.

 

[BossAttack]

Eh there's plenty to flaw in Dune's visuals as well. For one it has a very Brutalist aesthetic that is not faithful to the books and is typical of Denis' style instead. Which in itself is not a flaw but that kind of look does make me go "that looks impractical", like large room with two chairs and one table to the side just makes me feel like this place is unlived. The rooms look like they are only lit using glowglobes and partially by sunlight despite the castle having plenty of sunlight passing through the ceiling (which is how Denis designed the castle to be like) etc. The colour palette is also excessively muted even in areas where you expect colour and night scenes are excessively dark because of the same reason.

Basicslly, there's plenty to fault both Dune and Foundation. I prefer Foundation's look to Dune, you prefer Dune's.

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Agreed. Dune is the first time Denis' aesthetic just didn't fit the story he was telling.

 

[Nooblet]

Speaking of Brother Day, it clearly bothers him that he didn't have a vision when even a robot (who lives forever) did. He is clearly a sensitive person who also understands other cultures, and sees the faults in the Empire etc. And yet he's manipulative. I can't tell if he's suppose to be a bad guy or a misguided good guy.

And I can't stop being disappointed at Gaal doing nothing this whole season. Now she's pissed off to season 2 and I hope it isn't more of the same just so they can keep having her around during different times.

 

[iosefe]

Asimov's 2nd Law would prevent Demerezel from causing any harm to Halima. So she could disobey if the writers knew what they were doing. G

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I think the zeroth law comes into play here. it's a stretch, but not following the order of Cleon could bring harm to humanity to a greater degree.