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Deleted member 50374

alt account
Banned
Dec 4, 2018
2,482
Yes their completely optional storefront charges 30%.

What I said is what this is. You install Steam on Windows, 30% to MS. You install anything at all they get 30%. That's apples model.

Their whole business model is so utterly shakily dependent on other companies apps. They would be destroyed without them and they still treat them like fucking shit.
That's literally what happened to Windows Phone.

Google put no YouTube or Gmail on it. Instagram and Facebook took their sweet time delivering an inferior experience.

Result: a failed competitor and a duopoly that killed any competitor. Be it open (Jolla) or not (PalmOS).
 

bruhaha

Banned
Jun 13, 2018
4,122
It's about monopolisation. Apple have such a huge market share of one of the main forms of an everyday electronic device that almost everyone owns and they have complete control over everything to do with it, to the point where any competition within the iOS software market can be snuffed out on their whim. That's just not comparable to Playstation, Xbox and Nintendo.

iPhone has a 39% market share in the US, much lower if you're looking at worldwide. PS4 has over 50% North American marketshare of current gen consoles.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,783
So, you legitimately don't see how not having to use Apple's payment services, which in turn will increase the cut developers get from sales, isn't good especially for indie developers? What the actual fuck?
they are not picking this fight for the little guy. if this has any impact which it most likely wont, but say it does, the little guy benefits on the side, but its def not epics main motivator.

edit: if they would have been serious and it not being a big marketing spiel for Fortnite, they would not have made that 1984 apple mocking short.
 

big_z

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,797
Couldn't epic just host the Fortnite.ipa themselves and have people install it outside the App Store?

I know you used to be able to and iTunes would give a warning about unauthorized apps but it's been a while so maybe that's changed.
 

GMM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,482
Is he really this fucking dumb, that is literally Apple's model too.

To be fair Apple generates a big chunk of money on hardware sales every year, consoles have much slimmer margins even if they are sold at a profit.

30% is still too much in any case, but the point remains that they need to profit on software sales more than Apple does, along with the fact that Apple has a much bigger market share in certain territories where it becomes troublesome if they get to dictate how mobile software and services are allowed to operate in ways that makes those unable to compete with Apples own offerings.

For entertainment on TV the consumer has a ton of choice between various platforms and there is no obvious gate keeper like what we have on mobile. Apple can tell developers to get bent on the Apple TV platform since the consumer has viable alternatives. It is a legitimate issue when companies like Apple and Google get to dictate how we are allowed to get and pay for content on mobile since those two companies make up for the vast majority of digital software sales on those type of platforms. Google itself doesn't offer Android for free out of generosity, the aim is always that the end user must give them something to turn a profit with in terms of data to push ads, services or software sales in a store they curate.

While I think Epic in principle is right to question the overreaching monetization aspects of the stores and how even Android makes it somewhat hard for average consumers to install third party software, I don't agree with this tactic and the end goal of it.

Epic wants to cut out both Apple and Google by not giving them any slice of the cake despite both companies being the reason Epic has any reason wanting to publish on in the first place, this is not okay and the goal in the end is just greed to the detriment of the users of those platforms. A compromise must be made since the current deal is not fair and can stifle innovation in the case of iOS, the take from the platform holder must be lowered and certain restrictions must be lifted both on the Apple App Store and Google Play Store.

It's a case where neither Epic or Apple/Google is in the right, the compromise must come from a third party like the EU commission that doesn't have an outright bias.
 

Mike Armbrust

Member
Oct 25, 2017
528
Not sure if I like how Epic is handling this, but I'm glad there's growing pressure against Apple's policies. The 30% cut on mobile is crazy.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,862
Genuine question: Why, from a legal standpoint, should Apple be forced to allow other storefronts in their ecosystem? They did 100% of the work designing the hardware, the OS, the storefront, basically every part of the phone except for the apps. So why should someone be able to create apps and make money in that ecosystem without going through Apple who created the entire thing to begin with and pays 100% of the cost of maintenance, curation, OS development, payment fees, etc?

And before anyone accuses me of shilling for Apple, I'm asking a genuine question and open to well-reasoned responses.
 

KillstealWolf

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
16,090
EfU3gBaVoAEZitz


(peak 2020 lmao)

You know, of all the years, 2020 probably isn't the best one to make the case on.

I imagine this is going to age really badly.
 

ScubaSteve693

Banned
Mar 26, 2020
680
they are not picking this fight for the little guy. if this has any impact which it most likely wont, but say it does, the little guy benefits on the side, but its def not epics main motivator.
Even if the person who benefits this most is Epic, any change that can help developers is a good change and should be celebrated. More money going to developers means more they can continue to make or improve upon their games, enhance their creative vision and potentially not have to rely on kickstarters to get things going.

Genuine question: Why, from a legal standpoint, should Apple be forced to allow other storefronts in their ecosystem? They did 100% of the work designing the hardware, the OS, the storefront, basically every part of the phone except for the apps. So why should someone be able to create apps and make money in that ecosystem without going through Apple who created the entire thing to begin with and pays 100% of the cost of maintenance, curation, OS development, payment fees, etc?

And before anyone accuses me of shilling for Apple, I'm asking a genuine question and open to well-reasoned responses.
Counterpoint: Why should Apple take such a high cut when they put in 0% of the work designing and developing the game in which is being hosted on their platform? Epic isn't advocating for Apple to get no cut, but the cut in which they are getting is a bit extreme.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,276
Yeah but the outcome could benefit indi devs releasing in the appstore

It's hard to say. In some ways, yes obviously it would benefit Indies, but Google and Apple's App Store rules also did a lot to even the playing field. App stores were quite democratizing in their own way and gave small devs a more even playing field which is why there was an explosion in apps made by small teams. Apple and Google are absolutely abusing their position in ways that hurt users, developers and, I would argue, ultimately themselves, but that doesn't necessarily make the situation simple.

The world Epic is fighting for is one where they will be able to leverage their own advantages more both with their own games and their engine licensing business. It's not a cut and dry win for the little guy.
 

oofouchugh

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,968
Night City
Couldn't epic just host the Fortnite.ipa themselves and have people install it outside the App Store?

I know you used to be able to and iTunes would give a warning about unauthorized apps but it's been a while so maybe that's changed.

I'm pretty sure you can only install third party apps as Test Flight versions that require developer certificates to be refreshed in some way. Its basically a huge pain and I'm pretty sure there are a lot of limitations on what the app can actually do on the device.
 

Papaya

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,474
California
Because then there would be no Switch.

Nintendo has no incentive to create and maintain a platform like Switch if someone else can benefit more on their hardware than themselves.
Yes the incentive is to make money. You think they are gonna just gonna give up cause they make less?

Any console that allows a third-party store will, almost guaranteed, still have it's own store, and own set of services to make money.
 

Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,245


Apple knew it was bait, and you can see that from their response as they pulled it down.

This should be zoomed out once more to show Epic pointing a gun at itself as it destroys every ounce of goodwill it possibly had in this situation with that ludicrous 1984 / Apple video and the subsequent mobilization of its fanbase.

Epic will be fine and no doubt the fanbase for the game will mostly blindly follow, especially with their community and folks like Geoff Keighley supporting Epic's push of this hashtag and essentially getting kids to brigade another corporation. That this was all avoidable but still planned out to use kids in this way to serve a corporate interest is so shitty. And the 1984 ad Apple had (which Orwell's estate tried to cease and desist for it's tasteless approach at the time is the mirror image of what Epic does again today, like you say is as ludicrous.
The good will of those fans will still be there though; that's what they bet on.
All this talk about making the gaming landscape a better place, less toxic etc, and none of these guys actually mean that. What a shit show!
 

PIkkonX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
245
Is he really this fucking dumb, that is literally Apple's model too.
This. That's one of the dumbest things I've seen/heard in a minute. So Apple/Google didn't spend billions over the last 13 years getting their user base to what it is? And now they're being demanded to let Epic play for free? Gtfoh, I hope Sweeney and co get destroyed in whatever happens legally.

If they didn't like the 30%, the time to fight that was before uploading the apk/ipa, not by breaching the contract they already agreed to.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,862
Even if the person who benefits this most is Epic, any change that can help developers is a good change and should be celebrated. More money going to developers means more they can continue to make or improve upon their games, enhance their creative vision and potentially not have to rely on kickstarters to get things going.


Counterpoint: Why should Apple take such a high cut when they put in 0% of the work designing and developing the game in which is being hosted on their platform? Epic isn't advocating for Apple to get no cut, but the cut in which they are getting is a bit extreme.
I'd guess their argument would be it's industry standard and every platform charges that percentage. If someone is ok with Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo getting that cut, they should be ok with Apple getting that cut (I left out Google because they didn't create the entire ecosystem by themself, just the OS/storefront but not hardware).
 

ScubaSteve693

Banned
Mar 26, 2020
680
I'd guess their argument would be it's industry standard and every platform charges that percentage. If someone is ok with Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo getting that cut, they should be ok with Apple getting that cut (I left out Google because they didn't create the entire ecosystem by themself, just the OS/storefront but not hardware).
As others have pointed out in other threads, Apple makes a lot more profit off of hardware than console makers do, so the fact they are taking such profit from hardware AND software is what the main difference here is. If Apple sold their devices at a loss or at least dead even, I don't think Epic and other companies would have such a gripe with them.
 

HockeyBird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,587
Not here defending him, but I think what he's saying is that PlayStation and Xbox's entire existence of their platform is to sell games and he doesn't view that Apple/Google's PC/Mobiles platform's were built for gamers, they were built to sell phones/ads etc.

Regardless of Tim's own personal distinction, I don't his logic will make for a good legal argument. Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo built a thing and they sell other things on it for which they get a 30% cut. Apple built a thing for which they selling other things on it and therefore can ask for a 30% cut just like everyone else. That's how a court I think is likely to see it so Tim better hope his tweet doesn't come back to bite him in the ass.
 

Deleted member 50374

alt account
Banned
Dec 4, 2018
2,482
Because then there would be no Switch.

Nintendo has no incentive to create and maintain a platform like Switch if someone else can benefit more on their hardware than themselves.
So they're closing their company because they can't get all the money instead of some. The same company that gets people to pay full price for their first party titles at any point of the year, seemingly without competing with the other consoles?

What would really happen is people loading up browsers to watch porn and a couple homebrew games. In fact it might boost the sales just because people can use it as an Android tablet.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,862
As others have pointed out in other threads, Apple makes a lot more profit off of hardware than console makers do, so they fact they are taking such profit from hardware AND software is what the main difference here is. If Apple sold their devices at a loss or at least dead even, I don't think Epic and other companies would have such a gripe with them.
Yeah, that's definitely a possibility, but it's impossible to say that definitively. I've never looked into what their profit margin on their hardware is.

My counterpoint to that would be Apple releases hardware MUCH more often than the console-makers, so they spend a LOT more on R&D in addition to designing their own chips which none of the other hardware makers do.

Edit: Also their OS development is much more intensive than any of the other platform-holders besides Microsoft (who charges for their OS unlike Apple) and Google. The consoles only get small updates spaced fairly far apart, whereas iOS and Android are required to update much more frequently to keep on the bleeding edge.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,783
Even if the person who benefits this most is Epic, any change that can help developers is a good change and should be celebrated. More money going to developers means more they can continue to make or improve upon their games, enhance their creative vision and potentially not have to rely on kickstarters to get things going.
Yes, more money is always good for devs, you are absolutely right on that and unlike valve who provides free of charge a whole suite of features for developers, apple does very little for its cut. In this case I am not against a rally cry to change things, but the way this is done is completely transparent what their real motivations are and its hard for me to cheer for epic.
 

HockeyBird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,587
Can someone very briefly explain why they're ok with console licensing fee's but not iOS?

Privately they probably don't think the consoles should get the fees. But publicly, Apple seems to be the easier together in the court of public opinion plus if they were to start to antagonize the console makers while this lawsuit is ongoing, Epic might take a bigger financial hit that they are expecting.
 

oofouchugh

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,968
Night City
As others have pointed out in other threads, Apple makes a lot more profit off of hardware than console makers do, so the fact they are taking such profit from hardware AND software is what the main difference here is. If Apple sold their devices at a loss or at least dead even, I don't think Epic and other companies would have such a gripe with them.

Oh they absolutely would still because the argument would just then turn into Apple benefiting from those users because they can now sell them companion accessories like AirPods and Apple Watches and now that they're in the iOS App Eco System they benefit from people converting to iPad users or Mac users and oh don't forget all the services Apple sells like iCould, Apple Arcade, Apple Music, etc. The goal posts would absolutely keep moving around because companies like Epic want as much of the pie as they can get and any excuse to try to flip over the table if things don't go their way.
 

Damaniel

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,536
Portland, OR
There's no monopoly at play here....

There's certainly a duopoly though. Apple and Google combined effectively have 100% of the mobile app market (at least outside of China). Third party app markets are effectively non-existent on the Apple side, and are practically a rounding error, marketshare wise, on the Android side (though they do have app sideloading, so it's not as egregious as Apple's behavior).
 

19thCenturyFox

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,309
Legit question here since I'm not familiar with the Epic Store. Do they allow devs who are using Epic's infrastructure to distribute their game to bypass Epic when selling in game currency or DLC even on exclusives?

Seems kind of hypocritical if they don't.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,366
Who cares. Really. Are you offended in place of their fanbase? Corporations gonna corporate, and consumers should always side with more choices, both when it hurts Epic and when it doesn't.
Why does this have to be about me? Goodwill is goodwill and it can affect anybody looking in at the situation from the outside. Are you really trying to be a commentary cop?
 

ScubaSteve693

Banned
Mar 26, 2020
680
Legit question here since I'm not familiar with the Epic Store. Do they allow devs who are using Epic's infrastructure to distribute their game to bypass Epic when selling in game currency or DLC even on exclusives?

Seems kind of hypocritical if they don't.
If what I am understanding is correct, games sold on EGS, they do offer direct payment to developers to where 100% of it would go to said developer.
 

Deleted member 50374

alt account
Banned
Dec 4, 2018
2,482
Oh they absolutely would still because the argument would just then turn into Apple benefiting from those users because they can now sell them companion accessories like AirPods and Apple Watches and now that they're in the iOS App Eco System they benefit from people converting to iPad users or Mac users and oh don't forget all the services Apple sells like iCould, Apple Arcade, Apple Music, etc. The goal posts would absolutely keep moving around because companies like Epic want as much of the pie as they can get and any excuse to try to flip over the table if things don't go their way.

Most hardware companies aren't selling for margins like Apple yet they don't seem to mandate people to only install Intel approved or Nvidia approved or AMD approved games. Imagine having to install software from a specific store because Intel refuses to run games that might work on a Ryzen.

Why does this have to be about me? Goodwill is goodwill and it can affect anybody looking in at the situation from the outside. Are you really trying to be a commentary cop?

I'm mostly baffled by people seemingly being more interested in the reputation and "human characteristics" of corporations than actual advantages for real people.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,230
Even though a lot of people are talking 30% cut, what Epic wants is to essentially pay nothing to Apple by (1) allowing other app distribution platforms on iOS and (2) allowing alternate payments processing methods for in-app purchases. It seems to me that it's not so much about the 30% as it is about taking Apple out of the equation entirely for software purchases and IAP, presumably to pave the way for an 'Epic Mobile Games Store' on iOS.