Fortnite has been removed from Apple & Google app stores after breaking rules on both platforms [Update: Epic filing Lawsuit against Apple & Google]

[Lobster Roll]

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No, see, I'm looking for a storefront that does a better job of excluding Indie developers. A *curated* store, if you would.

 

[Cyclonesweep]

I am not saying that Apple isn't doing it for the profits. But the point about better experience is definitely true. Ask any ios user who has used an android device. There is definite difference because of how curated and well managed ios is. My point is that they made a product and it's their choice on how they sell it. If you want to buy into it, do it or don't. Every company is there for the profits and not to do charity.

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That's your opinion though.
I know tons of people who have used both and hate how iOS is curated and managed.

The issue comes down to how large the app industry is and Apples market share of it. Which is where the antitrust lawsuit comes in.

You can't have that much market share in an industry and just tell people if they don't like it leave. The world doesn't work like that, for good reason

 

[molnizzle]

I'm rooting for Epic to lose this. The last thing I want is for iOS to become a Wild West of different payment options. That just makes it easier for scammers and bad actors. Also makes it more difficult to be a responsible parent since only App Store payment requests will send a notification.

I want to see Apple cut the bullshit with game streaming apps, but I don't want more payment options.

 

[Zyae]

Yeah this will happen as soon as Microsoft allow you to install Steam on your Xbox Series X.



Apple, and I'm sure some users, call this a feature and not antitrust.

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You can buy xbox series x games at amazon, gamestop, bestbuy and a whole bunch of other retailers.

 

[Shado]

87% of the phones might be Android, but not 87% of the app money spent is on Android.

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That might be true and isn't even the point I made there.

 

[Green]

if epic wins that becomes a real possibility. low key I dont think ms would mind too much, though it would drive sony nuts.

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I can see Microsoft doing it before Apple.

 

[Deleted member 50374]

do you think the switch would be only 300 if nintendo had to allow competing stores?

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They don't need to allow competing stores. Free the bootloader and we're fine. Keep their drivers secret if they want, but I'll run my own fucking software on my own stuff.

 

[K' Dash]

This is fucking gross

God fuck both of these shitty companies

Reminder that George Orwell was a socialist

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Relax.

 

[fulltimepanda]

Has anyone at epic who put together these videos actually read 1984?

Or are they just remembering the cliff notes-esque summary they put together in middle school that they got a failing grade for?

 

[Heel]

A couple of things to note which might help people decide who to get mad at or root for

• Epic is protesting the 30% Apple revenue cut by bypassing Apples system and is offering only a 20% discount to consumers thereby making even more money per transaction
• Google Play has exactly the same rules as Apple regarding alternate stores and payment systems. They are just way more lax at enforcing them.
• Apple, Google, Sony PlayStation, Microsoft, Nintendo, and Steam all have a 30% revenue share and (mostly) similar rules with respect to their platform and ecosystem (Steam being somewhat of an outlier), so Apple isn't doing anything particularly different than the other platform manufacturers

I personally don't see anybody as "the good guy" here, and nobody involved is in this fight for "the consumer".

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Let's say this dispute results in the possibility of being able to negotiate with multiple 3rd party payment processors for a better cut. Do you view this as an ultimate net gain for an indie mobile dev or just an extra hoop for the consumer to jump through that could result in a net loss?

I'd guess on the mobile side, the convenience of spending on IAPs is a big factor here.

 

[Cyclonesweep]

I can see Microsoft doing it before Apple.

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Would Steam even go thru the hassle of developing Steam for consoles while also making sure the games are compatible?
I mean maybe on Xbox but Sony would be a nightmare to do that too.

 

[MarioW]

This is not true. Apps can use whatever payment method they want in Google Play with the exception of video game IAP which are required to use Google's system and give them 30%. It's not a difference in enforcement, it's a total difference in rules.

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Even if that were true (and I don't think it is given the last time I looked at the rules and discussed with our Google account manager) we are talking about videogame IAP though, so for all intents and purposes its the same.

 

[Kill3r7]

So can I put something into the epic store where you can buy steam keys? where does it fucking end?

Again Apple needs to change the policies 100% but EPIC is such a shit company as well.

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It's a worthwhile legal question that needs to be examined.

Ah yes, a big moneyhatting company getting 20% less money than it thinks it deserves is something totally comparable to Orwell's totalitarian dystopia.

Apple's store and policies need to change quite a bit, yes, but getting the Fortnite audience to annoy any adult they can find to put pressure on the system is not the way to do it.

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Actually the opposite is true. That is percisely what you want to do. Customers can force a company to change course much faster than the courts, since litigation of this magnitude is a long drawn out process. If this matter ever makes it to expert discovery, there will several surveys conducted to show that customers want the freedom to purchase directly from Epic but cannot do so because of Apple.

 

[oofouchugh]

Epic basically has to complaints - Apple is monopolising app distribution, and payment processing. They really only care about the second part.

I've been thinking: the deal Apple cut with Amazon, Canal+, and Altice One is that if they already have a subscriber, then that subscriber can use a non-Apple payment processor for transactions within the iOS app. However, if a customer signs up for Prime in iOS then all transactions happen via iTunes.

Epic probably wants the same deal - if a customer signed up to Fortnite outside of iOS, they want to be able to avoid iTunes payment processing for that customer. They've probably run the numbers and figured that's enough revenue to pull Fortnite off iOS for a while and do this whole lawsuit.

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Subscriptions seem like a different beast entirely though. This is entirely about in app purchases that are happening on the current device, in this case, an iOS device. Obviously they want to avoid the App Store cut on transactions, but the entire reason Apple takes a cut is because their App Store is used for distribution of that software. There is a tangible benefit to the visibility provided by Apples iOS App Store and having your software on it. The same can be said for the Google Play store which is why despite trying to force users to download Fortnite directly from their website Epic relented and put it on the Play Store. In fact they also broke the same purchase rules on the Play Store.

The only way this case can be resolved in a way that it can be seen as a win for Epic is by allowing software from any source to be run on a device, allowing Epic to bypass the App Store and its related fees. The second the discussion starts moving in that direction it will start a chain that brings into question the legality of any closed platform.

 

[Fart Master]

Lol greedy fucks

 

[Cyclonesweep]

They don't need to allow competing stores. Free the bootloader and we're fine. Keep their drivers secret if they want, but I'll run my own fucking software on my own stuff.

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Nintendo's reason is mostly cause they are absolutely terrible at security and freeing the bootloader makes it even easier for people to steal and hack from their network. They are the only one who gets a bit of a pass but only cause they are so incompetent securitywise lol

 

[Deleted member 50374]

Even if that were true (and I don't think it is given the last time I looked at the rules and discussed with our Google account manager) we are talking about videogame IAP though, so for all intents and purposes its the same.

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I buy tickets for local transporation all the time with PayPal on the official app. They cost exactly the same, btw.

 

[Like the hat?]

Super lame but maybe it'll end up helping smaller devs in the long run.

 

[Deleted member 5876]

Ahh.. nothing like reading a thread full of back seat lawyers.

 

[eathdemon]

I can see Microsoft doing it before Apple.

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thats the thing, ms could very easily switch the xsx to a gaming pc add like 300 to the price ($800) it becomes the best price/prof gamming pc on the parket. a 8c/16th 16GBs ram/ 12tflop gamming pc for less than 1k.

 

[RedHeat]

Ahh.. nothing like reading a thread full of back seat lawyers.

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i never took lawyer studies in my life

 

[Cyclonesweep]

I buy tickets for local transporation all the time with PayPal on the official app. They cost exactly the same, btw.

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I believe for in app purchases as long as it's a secure payment system, Google doesn't have an issue

 

[Shado]

That's your opinion though.
I know tons of people who have used both and hate how iOS is curated and managed.

The issue comes down to how large the app industry is and Apples market share of it. Which is where the antitrust lawsuit comes in.

You can't have that much market share in an industry and just tell people if they don't like it leave. The world doesn't work like that, for good reason

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I mean we are just going round in circles as thats exactly what I said. App store is bigger(app share) because people I guess have a higher chance of purchasing legally from the appstore versus an open platform?

As for ios experience vs android, sure there will always be people on both sides of it, and also plays into the same point of them having a choice to select a device or platform which allows them that openness.

 

[Deleted member 69573]

I'm rooting for Epic to lose this. The last thing I want is for iOS to become a Wild West of different payment options. That just makes it easier for scammers and bad actors. Also makes it more difficult to be a responsible parent since only App Store payment requests will send a notification.

I want to see Apple cut the bullshit with game streaming apps, but I don't want more payment options.

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Alternative: If Apple lose here they will then be forced to make their native solutions easier to implement and manage to compete eg. providing an actual product people want to engage with. I would 100% use their solution if it was 1. cheaper and 2. easier to implement. It"s only a hassle at the moment because they don't need to put in the effort.

 

[Cyclonesweep]

Ahh.. nothing like reading a thread full of back seat lawyers.

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The lawyer for epic is literally an expert for this too. This isn't just Epic throwing random shit at the wall, they have a legit case.

 

[Sonicfan1373]

As an avid Apple user and someone that really likes their products and software I really hope the pressure applied on them by Epic, Microsoft, and others leads them to add the option to install from external sources (just like you can on a Mac, with a simple change of a setting). If Apple doesn't want to add apps to its store that violate its policies, that is fine. But what is wrong right now is that Apple essentially holds a monopoly with regards to app distribution on their platform because they are the only ones allowed to distribute apps, which means every app has to play by Apple's rules. This ought to change, and users should be allowed to choose what they install on their devices and from where. I think this ought to apply to consoles as well.

 

[shimon]

 

[ShinobiOfTheWind]

The papers, the 1984 cringe ad remake, and the "gAmErZ rIsE uP" carnival of stupid, were all pre-planned by Sweeney, knowing fully well that they'll kick Fortnite off the AppStore. Modern day viral marketing 101.

The funny thing is, Apple, are not only going to inevitably win this laughable kerfuffle against EPIC, but Fortnite, will be banned FOREVER, on iOS devices. That's 1 billion+ potential consumers of skins and emotes lost, FOREVER.

Free entertainment for us all watching a billion dollar software MNC, taking on a trillion dollar enterprise, trying to cause a ripple effect.

SONY, MSFT & NTDO, better be prepared for this. They're next on his list, and those 3 companies are Apple times 10. They won't even give the tiniest of fucks if Fortnite goes off their platform. LMAO.

 

[Lobster Roll]

Ahh.. nothing like reading a thread full of back seat lawyers.

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Now what say you and I go toe-to-toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor?

 

[dex3108]

Here is the twist, Apple somehow manages to buy Epic XD

 

[Cyclonesweep]

I mean we are just going round in circles as thats exactly what I said. App store is bigger(app share) because people I guess have a higher chance of purchasing legally from the appstore versus an open platform?

As for ios experience vs android, sure there will always be people on both sides of it, and also plays into the same point of them having a choice to select a device or platform which allows them that openness.

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Apples is bigger because in larger nations Apple products are more widely spread and people spend more money on their device. Apple doesn't have budget devices, so more often than not, people with Apple devices spend more money. Android has a massive variety so a lot of their share is from people who just need a phone for a phone and don't spend shit tons on apps

 

[Shado]

Also for people who are interested:

U.S. Justice Department going 'full tilt' on tech antitrust probe: official

The U.S. Justice Department is moving "full-tilt" on its antitrust investigation of Alphabet Inc’s Google and other Big Tech platforms, the department's second-ranking official told Reuters.

www.reuters.com

 

[John Caboose]

I got two reasons now. Fortnite and Xcloud.

Apple is losing it. Android is the places for games! Come on over!!

We can play a few rounds of MORTAL KOMBAT tonight on Xcloud. It's running buttery smooth on my Samsung Android phone.

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xCloud is a shame for sure, but I think it will be allowed eventually. Even if it isn't I wouldn't switch to Android for it.

I have no interest in playing Fortnite, or any fighting game.

 

[jasius]

Ahh.. nothing like reading a thread full of back seat lawyers.

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i never took lawyer studies in my life

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I've several degrees in backseating. How am I doing with this?

This is pretty clear, Apple wants their cut of the profits, Epic wants all the money themselves.

The end user gets completely screwed here, but nobody really cares about that, especially Epic, if their userbase wasn't mostly under 14 the userbase would realize that Epic themselves are responsible for this, and this is a greed move on Epic's part.

 

[Bakura]

wrong thread xd

 

[Cyclonesweep]

I know people are shitting on Epic too but ..

Doesn't Epic let devs use Unreal Engine for free unless they hit a certain revenue threshold which is pretty large?

 

[Mindwipe]

Ah yes, a big moneyhatting company getting 20% less money than it thinks it deserves is something totally comparable to Orwell's totalitarian dystopia.

Apple's store and policies need to change quite a bit, yes, but getting the Fortnite audience to annoy any adult they can find to put pressure on the system is not the way to do it.

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Given the complete failure of US anti-trust systems otherwise it's almost certainly exactly the way to do it.

 

[bruhaha]

I buy tickets for local transporation all the time with PayPal on the official app. They cost exactly the same, btw.

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That's a different case for goods/services to be used outside the app. Apple's fine with that as well - you can order food on Grubhub with a credit card. Heck, you can even buy PC games in the Steam iOS app.

 

[BlastProcessing]

I'm a lawyer, yes. But what I'm trying to tell you is that law school is not enough. It would take literal years of study to be competent to pick a fight like this.

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Oh no doubt. Sorry, that was rude of me.

 

[Eggiem]

That 1984 ad, just wow. Has the average Fortnite player even read 1984?

I'm not sure what intellectual high road Epic thinks they're taking here. Especially since they're calling (young) Fortnite players to arms against Apple.

That's some nice doublethink right there.

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Epic should do something to prevent America from becoming 1984. At least Apple cares about privacy. If you do such a stupid comparison, do it right.

 

[just_myles]

Not about user safety at all.

 

[Deleted member 50374]

That's a different case for goods/services to be used outside the app. Apple's fine with that as well - you can order food on Grubhub with a credit card.

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So Apple wants 30% for switching numbers in a database?

Wow. Much expensive. Very labour intensive.

 

[CerealEnthusiast]

Epic Games and Tim Sweeney have the biggest balls I've ever seen. Literally made out of titanium. The whole move was absolute genius, a master plan and trap from beginning to end.

 

[BumbleChump]

I'm not sure who's in the right here.

Apple made their own device and requires developers to give them a cut. Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo all do the same thing with their hardware, but the only difference is that there's a lot more iphones than consoles. Does the sheer number of ios devices make it a monopoly?

 

[Deleted member 39479]

I'm cackling at the speed Epic rolled out their response. I'm sure they had all this ready before they even implemented the VBucks loophole.

 

[Greenpaint]

A couple of things to note which might help people decide who to get mad at or root for

• Epic is protesting the 30% Apple revenue cut by bypassing Apples system and is offering only a 20% discount to consumers thereby making even more money per transaction
• Google Play has exactly the same rules as Apple regarding alternate stores and payment systems. They are just way more lax at enforcing them.
• Apple, Google, Sony PlayStation, Microsoft, Nintendo, and Steam all have a 30% revenue share and (mostly) similar rules with respect to their platform and ecosystem (Steam being somewhat of an outlier), so Apple isn't doing anything particularly different than the other platform manufacturers

I personally don't see anybody as "the good guy" here, and nobody involved is in this fight for "the consumer".

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The difference between Mobile + Console vs PC (Steam) is that on PC you can choose to use a game store that doesn't take that 30% cut. Or you can just download something directly to your PC, bypassing Steam completely. On iPhone that is not possible (and neither it's on consoles). So the situation on PC isn't really comparable to others.

 

[MarioW]

Let's say this dispute results in the possibility of being able to negotiate with multiple 3rd party payment processors for a better cut. Do you view this as an ultimate net gain for an indie mobile dev or just an extra hoop for the consumer to jump through that could result in a net loss?

I'd guess on the mobile side, the convenience of spending on IAPs is a big factor here.

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I'd personally just hope for a reduction in the revenue cut. Adding additional payment methods/providers is useful when you want to reach more consumers e.g. in territories where credit card penetration is low. But you are adding a lot of complexity and/or overhead to ingame store UI flow, analytics, customer support, refund processing, accounting and reconciliations etc. It isn't going to be worth it for a lot of smaller developers for the most part, even if they could effectively make more per transaction or convert more consumers by having a lower price point, because they won't have the transaction scale to offset the additional overhead.

Platforms cutting their revenue share is the easiest and most broadly beneficial type of win that could come out of this.

The difference between Mobile + Console vs PC (Steam) is that on PC you can choose to use a game store that doesn't take that 30% cut. On iPhone that is not possible (and neither it's on consoles).

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Yes. That's why I explicitly said Steam was different.

 

[Mindwipe]

Epic should do something to prevent America from becoming 1984. At least Apple cares about privacy. If you do such a stupid comparison, do it right.

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Apple doesn't care about privacy. If they did they wouldn't have thrown the Hong Kong protestors under the bus.

 

[Infinity Times Two]

I'm not sure who's in the right here.

Apple made their own device and requires developers to give them a cut. Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo all do the same thing with their hardware, but the only difference is that there's a lot more iphones than consoles. Does the sheer number of ios devices make it a monopoly?

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The issue with apps is not that it's a monopoly, because it isn't.

It's a duopoly, and that's still a problem.

 

[Damaniel]

I'm not really sure why everyone is rooting for Epic here. An iPhone without access to Fortnite becomes at least 15% safer to give to your child, in regards to wasting time and money when they shouldn't.

If anything, Epic wanting special treatment for itself is what should be targeted here.

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The alternative is to root for Apple. Maybe I'll start doing that once they pay taxes.