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Oct 25, 2017
16,738
If Jason says there is crunch while this developer says there isn't, it'll just look like different people have different opinions on the work environment BUT it'll be hard to prove that there is a massive, deeply engrained issue with crunch at 343i when you have a dev putting his name on the line confirming there is no crunch, whereas Jason's article will only have comments one way or the other from anonymous sources, most likely.

Hate to say it but I'd trust Jason's article over a single dev rushing to clarify his statements after it caused a whirlwind.

Also crunch is rarely forced and even if someone wants to work longer hours it's up to the job to put in safety protocols to prevent that.
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,141
I can sympathize with him on being taken out of context for headlines and clicks. He even went through the trouble of emailing several content creators and writers in order to provide even further context and received no feedback in return. "I am not your Halo news source."

Hate to say it but I'd trust Jason's article over a single dev rushing to clarify his statements after it caused a whirlwind.

The "whirlwind" was caused by sensationalized reporting that purposefully took his words out of context. That's why he made the clarifying video. And the dev in question even said "crunch" as a concept means different things to different developers - it's not some absolute metric of work culture.
 
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
No, the two sides in this thread are those listening to what this guy is saying, and those that want there the be issues with crunch at 343.

I don't think anyone wants there to be an issue with crunch at 343, but there most likely IS crunch at 343.

Again I'm sure this dev is being very honest, but this is partially why he shouldn't have said much. Hell even everyone here was parsing his comments for any sort of information.
 

Akainu

Unshakable Resolve
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,242
Everywhere and nowhere
So i get he did some work for 343 but why'd he feel the need to talk in the first place that lead to this misunderstanding? Was he being interviewed or just dropped a video?
 

DanielG123

Member
Jul 14, 2020
2,490
Have people never worked on a deadline or been in the zone? Ya mismanagement happens but not always. A project can be perfectly managed and still have deadline pressures due to unforeseen circumstances.

Quit using Crunch so liberally. Downplayed actual shitty conditions
Mhm. It feels like a lot of people on here have never worked in an environment with actual deadlines, schedules, and projects. Just because a deadline may be tight, does not inherently mean that there's "crunch" in any way.

Parroting you, and others in this thread that have said similar: Stop using the word "crunch" so liberally. Don't excuse not accept actual shitty conditions in the video game space, but don't also take a person's word out of context in order to spin your own inaccurate narrative.
 
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
I can sympathize with him on being taken out of context for headlines and clicks. He even went through the trouble of emailing several content creators and writers in order to provide even further context and received no feedback in return. "I am not your Halo news source."



The "whirlwind" was caused by sensationalized reporting that purposefully took his words out of context. That's why he made the clarifying video.

Either way. He probably shouldn't have said anything regardless. This was always going to be the outcome. ANY information he gave out was going to be picked apart. This is why people were shocked he revealed so much. No doubt he had to have signed some sort of NDA.

But again we have very little information. But yea if Jason's report details crunch I will believe that over what one dev who doesn't work there anymore is saying.
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,141
So i get he did some work for 343 but why'd he feel the need to talk in the first place that lead to this misunderstanding? Was he being interviewed or just dropped a video?

He made a video encouraging people passionate about video art to go into games development, and mentioned one line about crunch deadlines in the entire 15 minutes of said video. people latched onto that and made that the focal point of a discussion about 343 crunch culture, using him as the principal source.
 

Navidson REC

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,439
I don't think anyone wants there to be an issue with crunch at 343, but there most likely IS crunch at 343.

Again I'm sure this dev is being very honest, but this is partially why he shouldn't have said much. Hell even everyone here was parsing his comments for any sort of information.
Yeah, same as there is crunch at most other workplaces I guess? Again, not defending crunch, it sucks, but I feel people are too quick to blame 343 when the problem is much more systemic/human.
 

deathkiller

Member
Apr 11, 2018
934
I have worked for companies. This didn't change. I would still do it if I worked in game development for big companies.

You can argue the morals of where the money goes, but if a developer wants to crunch and doesn't feel pressure to do so... We really shouldn't be speaking for them.
What is the problem with pointing at unhealthy behaviours even when driven by the workers?
 
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
Yeah, same as there is crunch at most other workplaces I guess? Again, not defending crunch, it sucks, but I feel people are too quick to blame 343 when the problem is much more systemic/human.

I also feel people have a right to be upset. I think we can be honest and assume most gamers/consumers don't care about crunch as long as the game gets made. I also feel that's a big reason why nothing is done on the issue. It gets reported on but no one truly cares so you get "outrage" for a day and then people move on.
 
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
Does any company actually FORCE crunch?

I'm sure it has happened and still does, but I doubt you're gonna hear "You need to crunch or else you're going to get fired"

I feel it's more "coerced" in a way. I feel you have people that will work themselves to the ground and then you may have people that feel pressured to stay and work because they see their fellow workers doing the same thing.
 

starfoxxxy

Gravity Is Hard
Banned
Mar 13, 2021
6,488
I doubt they "force" crunch. I sure it's just "highly" "encouraged" to put in a bit more work.
I'm sure it has happened and still does, but I doubt you're gonna hear "You need to crunch or else you're going to get fired"

I feel it's more "coerced" in a way. I feel you have people that will work themselves to the ground and then you may have people that feel pressured to stay and work because they see their fellow workers doing the same thing.

Yeah, i get a real Office Space vibe when I hear about Crunch. That it isn't necessarily part of your schedule but the expectation is that you come in and finish x amount of stuff no matter what or you're not doing your job well enough. Etc
 

Quellyford

Banned
May 16, 2020
4,072
The one part of the second video that stuck out is he says that he went out of his way to personally contact some press and youtube content creators who ran the piece to offer up himself to give further context and heard back from NOBODY.
Yup. I'm also noticing anyone that mentions this new development to Jason Schreier on Twitter is getting blocked.

Makes you wonder if most of gaming media only WANTS to run with bad news.
 

Quellyford

Banned
May 16, 2020
4,072
Hate to say it but I'd trust Jason's article over a single dev rushing to clarify his statements after it caused a whirlwind.

Also crunch is rarely forced and even if someone wants to work longer hours it's up to the job to put in safety protocols to prevent that.
I would take the employee putting his real face and name behind what he says over anonymous "sources" assuming that's what a story has. Plus, the fact anyone who mentions this new development to Jason Schreier on Twitter is getting blocked. Huge red flag to me.
 

deathkiller

Member
Apr 11, 2018
934
My posts ITT answer this, including the one you just quoted.
Sorry I didn't fully read all the post before answering. I think that even if you find condescending when people worry about unhealthy behaviour is good that people point at it. To clarify crunch for me means constant overwork without time off compensation in the short term.
 

Quellyford

Banned
May 16, 2020
4,072
So i get he did some work for 343 but why'd he feel the need to talk in the first place that lead to this misunderstanding? Was he being interviewed or just dropped a video?
From what I understand, he enjoys making happy, good vibes videos and the original conversation was actually a very positive one that got spun negatively by the internet. What a surprise.

Check out the guy's YouTube channel. Super wholesome!
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,209
Sorry I didn't fully read all the post before answering. I think that even if you find condescending when people worry about unhealthy behaviour is good that people point at it. To clarify crunch for me means constant overwork without time off compensation in the short term.
As explained, I think the concern is required but some people absolutely take it too far and speak over and for others telling them what is best for them.

Crunch isn't limited to that definition either, part of what makes nuance and context here matter.
 

Mad_Rhetoric

Banned
May 7, 2019
3,466
I would take the employee putting his real face and name behind what he says over anonymous "sources" assuming that's what a story has. Plus, the fact anyone who mentions this new development to Jason Schreier on Twitter is getting blocked. Huge red flag to me.

Yeah pretty much exactly this. Honestly Jason should interview this guy if he's working on a 343 article.
 

PianoBlack

Member
May 24, 2018
6,724
United States
Does any company actually FORCE crunch?
I doubt they "force" crunch. I sure it's just "highly" "encouraged" to put in a bit more work.
I'm sure it has happened and still does, but I doubt you're gonna hear "You need to crunch or else you're going to get fired"

I feel it's more "coerced" in a way. I feel you have people that will work themselves to the ground and then you may have people that feel pressured to stay and work because they see their fellow workers doing the same thing.

From last fall:

"With less than two months to go before the release of Cyberpunk 2077 on 19th November, studio-wide overtime is being mandated on CD Projekt Red employees, according to a new report by Bloomberg. Citing an internal email, the team have been informed that they must work six-day weeks between now and release, as they try to troubleshoot as many bugs as possible for a day one patch.

CD Projekt Red's Adam Badowski wrote that studio staff would be required to work "your typical amount of work and one day on the weekend"."

Compare CD Projekt to this guy's statement that he worked some late nights because he had to watch his kids during the day. It doesn't feel like the same thing to me.
 

Shoes

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,586
So i get he did some work for 343 but why'd he feel the need to talk in the first place that lead to this misunderstanding? Was he being interviewed or just dropped a video?
You need to actually watch the second video since he clearly states the reason.
 

Quellyford

Banned
May 16, 2020
4,072
Yeah pretty much exactly this. Honestly Jason should interview this guy if he's working on a 343 article.
Especially since Jason Schreier directly retweeted the original post and confirmed he's working on a story about 343i, yet this employee confirmed no journalists even reached out... very concerning. Here's hoping he ends up speaking to this employee who appears comfortable speaking candidly about the company, whether or not it's in his best interest.
 

Navidson REC

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,439
I also feel people have a right to be upset. I think we can be honest and assume most gamers/consumers don't care about crunch as long as the game gets made. I also feel that's a big reason why nothing is done on the issue. It gets reported on but no one truly cares so you get "outrage" for a day and then people move on.
Totally agreed but, yeah, I'm not sure if being upset at individual companies is enough here. I honestly wonder how this compares to companies in, say, Germany were unions and labor protection laws are more of a thing than in the US. I still think that part of the root of the problem here is capitalism and also human nature.
I would take the employee putting his real face and name behind what he says over anonymous "sources" assuming that's what a story has. Plus, the fact anyone who mentions this new development to Jason Schreier on Twitter is getting blocked. Huge red flag to me.
Yeah, not a good look for Schreier. Isn't Era doing a Q&A with him soon? Might be a good question to raise...
 

Mad_Rhetoric

Banned
May 7, 2019
3,466
Especially since Jason Schreier directly retweeted the original post and confirmed he's working on a story about 343i, yet this employee confirmed no journalists even reached out... very concerning. Here's hoping he ends up speaking to this employee who appears comfortable speaking candidly about the company, whether or not it's in his best interest.

Yep, although I think we both know he probably wont reach out......(would love to be pleasantly surprised though, it would look bad for schreier if he didnt contact him since his statement/videos are out there and relevant.)
 

crazillo

Member
Apr 5, 2018
8,267
We really live in sad times in this online world. This guy says he's physically suffering from his words being taken out of context, then he tries to clarify things, the ERA headline is somewhat guilty of the same clickbait thing as it singles out one aspect of so many that he raised. And people just jump onto it.

BTW, crunch is a problem for society as a whole. Gaming being part of it but it's hardly the only place. I'm in science and have been told that scientists should neither have weekends nor holidays in their early careers.
 

wwm0nkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,637
Especially since Jason Schreier directly retweeted the original post and confirmed he's working on a story about 343i, yet this employee confirmed no journalists even reached out... very concerning. Here's hoping he ends up speaking to this employee who appears comfortable speaking candidly about the company, whether or not it's in his best interest.
I thought the 343i article was ready to go, just sitting on it or something (which I pray is not the case)
 

Mad_Rhetoric

Banned
May 7, 2019
3,466
We really live in sad times in this online world. This guy says he's physically suffering from his words being taken out of context, then he tries to clarify things, the ERA headline is somewhat guilty of the same clickbait thing as it singles out one aspect of so many that he raised. And people just jump onto it.

The stress and anxiety this is all causing him is probably doing more harm to him than crunch ever did, ironically.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,457
He shouldn't have had to clarify, this only sounds like a longer version of his original post. There are issues ate 343, like in all game studios, but people really assumed the worst with this one.
 

deathkiller

Member
Apr 11, 2018
934
As explained, I think the concern is required but some people absolutely take it too far and speak over and for others telling them what is best for them.

Crunch isn't limited to that definition either, part of what makes nuance and context here matter.
I don't think that anybody can really know what is "best for them" without some kind of scientific testing of different options, I really don't think that people taking it "too far" even begins to compare to the rampant abuse that exists in the industry even if they can be annoying some times. I am not saying that you have to change your behaviour, nuance an context will always be lacking in internet comments.

I as developer have my own experiences with crunch that tinted my opinions, I tend to think about what is best regarding long term performance and how to avoid experienced people leaving the industry. This makes me disagree with those who think that crunch make better/cheaper/faster games on a pragmatic level.

Does any company actually FORCE crunch?
If it is part of the culture of the company they will fire people that don't crunch regardless performance.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,209
I don't think that anybody can really know what is "best for them" without some kind of scientific testing of different options, I really don't think that people taking it "too far" even begins to compare to the rampant abuse that exists in the industry even if they can be annoying some times. I am not saying that you have to change your behaviour, nuance an context will always be lacking in internet comments.

I as developer have my own experiences with crunch that tinted my opinions, I tend to think about what is best regarding long term performance and how to avoid experienced people leaving the industry. This makes me disagree with those who think that crunch make better/cheaper/faster games on a pragmatic level.
This is just more condescending nonsense, sorry. I know what is best for me far more than some random on the internet does, and I am more than aware that no one is all knowing when it comes to their own health.

And no, sorry, people taking it too far here can't be hand waved with whataboutism. It is a separate issue that absolutely needs to be addressed.
 

MonsterMech

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,409
I think the term "crunch" and what's deemed as reasonable work hours needs to be defined before any of these convos are productive.

There's obviously toxic work environments where employees have reported a culture of overwork and poor management leading them to mental and physical anguish.

But I don't think every overtime or deadline situation fits that idea.

As usual nuance is lost in the headlines and everyone just trying to get clicks or get their point across. But if the idea is to advocate the health and well-being of developers, I think reactions like we got in the last thread and this one are adverse to that goal.

Here's a developer telling you he's proud of the overtime he worked on the game and it's the internet reactions that actually caused him mental anguish. But lots of people want to ignore that and keep promoting their side of the issue despite how it's hurting this guy. And that goes all the way up to games journalists who apparently aren't concerned with his actual experience, but only with pushing a narrative for clicks.

It's evident fixing or addressing "crunch culture" falls on the shoulders of everyone involved. Not just the suits at the studios.
 

Quellyford

Banned
May 16, 2020
4,072
Yep, although I think we both know he probably wont reach out......(would love to be pleasantly surprised though, it would look bad for schreier if he didnt contact him since his statement/videos are out there and relevant.)
Ya, I guess we'll see. If he doesn't address this at all, and just used the original (false) story to.puah his own article he's working on, then it throws into question all of Jason Schreier's past work imo
 

Quellyford

Banned
May 16, 2020
4,072
User Banned (2 weeks): conspiracy theories, platform warring, a history of platform warring
I thought the 343i article was ready to go, just sitting on it or something (which I pray is not the case)
This is the rumor. If it is true that he's sitting on the story in order to wait for excitement around Halo Infinite to be high before breaking the story, it's definitely a kinda gross thing to do. So I really hope not.
 

Mad_Rhetoric

Banned
May 7, 2019
3,466
User Banned (1 month): conspiracy theories, long history of platform warring
Ya, I guess we'll see. If he doesn't address this at all, and just used the original (false) story to.puah his own article he's working on, then it throws into question all of Jason Schreier's past work imo

Agreed, at least this will be a good test of his integrity for all to see.
 
Jun 22, 2018
2,154
Oh, so people took some statements out of context and blew them out of proportion in order to make 343i and Halo Infinite look bad?

I'm shocked!
 

thevid

Puzzle Master
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,312
Ya, I guess we'll see. If he doesn't address this at all, and just used the original (false) story to.puah his own article he's working on, then it throws into question all of Jason Schreier's past work imo

Man, you've made an insane 180 about this guy in the last 2 days. Just look at your previous posts in the previous thread. It's insane that you've went from calling this guy fake for his video to calling Jason fake because of this guy now.
 

nillapuddin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,255
User Banned (1 week): conspiracy theories
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. If he does have something you'd kinda hope he waited until after launch at this point. But yeah if it's saving for maximum traffic that would not be a good look.
He's been "teasing" and subtle confirming he's been working on something since last year, ofcourse he's waiting for it to be more relevant. He's not stupid, a Halo article in February isn't worth much. But right before launch when supposedly positive excitement will be at its peak, will get way more eyeballs and for the less interested, possibly taint the release/feed console war fodder.

I'm not saying that he specifically has a anti MS agenda or anything, but at the end of the day you gotta be realistic, and that kind of drama is what get big clicks.
 

starfoxxxy

Gravity Is Hard
Banned
Mar 13, 2021
6,488
I can already see era blowing up when that article gets released by the tone of this thread lol
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,893
That is literally the only reason.

It's gross

A few things:
  1. Jason, if he actually cares about getting an accurate picture of 343's culture should interview this guy. Not often do you have a dev willing to go out of their way to clarify things.
  2. Do you guys honestly believe Jason is in control of when his articles release? He's a journalist at Bloomberg not an editor. I'm sure he has some say, but acting like he's personally holding off is a misunderstanding of how publications work
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
Hate to say it but I'd trust Jason's article over a single dev rushing to clarify his statements after it caused a whirlwind.
I don't agree in this case, because the japanese video was taken out of context by resetera and then "journalist" made articles around the translation and thread of resetera. This isn't good journalism. Even when we ignore the fact he reached out to some journalist (dunno if it's Jason) and they didn't even respond. Shows you all you need to know about many game journalist.

Crunch is bad obviously, so this isn't me defending crunch. But the journalism on display here is shocking.
 
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