"Forcing a conflict" - Turkey's large role in the ongoing Armenian-Azerbaijani war

Out 1 · Oct 16, 2020

The source is in Russian, but Google translate is pretty accurate.
Kommersant is a legitimate newspaper. Their reporting establishes Turkey's active role in pushing Azerbaijan towards war.

Military-diplomatic sources of Kommersant assert that the current serious aggravation of the conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh was deliberately planned and provoked by Turkey. According to them, over the past months, Ankara has actively provoked Baku to unleash hostilities under the promise of comprehensive political, diplomatic, intelligence and military-technical support. Earlier, the US and French authorities spoke about Turkey's direct intervention in the conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh.

Timeline (Azerbaijan started their offensive on September 27):

In September-October , judging by the data provided by Kommersant, the number of flights of Turkey's military transport aviation to Azerbaijan (mainly in transit through Georgia) increased sharply. In particular, the delivery of people and ammunition was allegedly carried out on September 4 by a C-130 aircraft of the Turkish Air Force, on September 18 by a CN-235 aircraft, on September 25 by an A400M aircraft.
In the midst of hostilities on September 28-30, in addition to the previously arrived military advisers, the commander of the ground forces Umit Dyundar and the Minister of Defense Hulusi Akar arrived in Azerbaijan. Kommersant's sources claim that they were in charge of the overall management of the operation on the Karabakh front on the spot.
On September 30, October 1 and 3, the delivery of medicines and small arms, according to them, was carried out by CN-235 planes along the route Etimesgut (Ankara) -Nasosnaya (Haji-Zeynalabdin).
The delivery of personnel and ammunition was allegedly also carried out on October 7 by a C-130 Turkish Air Force (flight TUAF737).
On October 9 , according to Kommersant's interlocutors, an Azerbaijani military transport aircraft Il-76TD (flight AZAF002) on the Amman-Baku route transited through Georgia DShK machine guns (200 units) with ammunition.
Earlier, Turkey also sent requests for transit flights through the Georgian airspace on October 14, 21 and 28. Kommersant's sources say that the permits have been obtained.

In addition, Kommersant's interlocutors report that Turkish representatives are recruiting mercenaries to participate in hostilities in Nagorno-Karabakh on the side of Azerbaijan from the Islamist groups loyal to Ankara fighting in Syria and Libya. Control over the functioning of the supply chain of mercenaries is allegedly carried out by the Turkish National Intelligence Organization with the support of the forces and means of the Ministry of Defense.

US Secretary of State Michael Pompeo also spoke about Turkey's active role in the conflict on Thursday. "Now the Turks have intervened and provided resources to Azerbaijan, thereby increasing the risk, adding fuel to the fire of what is happening in the historic battle in a place called Nagorno-Karabakh - a small territory with a population of about 150 thousand people," he said in an interview. radio stations WSB.

On the eve of the negative influence of Turkey, French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said. "Foreign interference, in particular Turkey's intervention, is fueling this escalation and is unacceptable," he said. Earlier, French President Emmanuel Macron also said that the Turkish authorities are helping to transfer militants from Syria to Azerbaijan.

Принуждение к конфликту

Источники “Ъ” рассказали, как Турция готовила почву для обострения в Нагорном Карабахе

www.kommersant.ru

How Turkey pushed for Azerbaijan’s war on Armenia – analysis

It is possible to see hints of the planning in Ankara behind the war through a look back at how the war developed.

www.jpost.com

Basarili · Oct 16, 2020

At the moment of writing. A huge Armenian rocket or what weapon it was has hit an appartment complex in Azerbeidzjan. Estimations vary about the death as the whole complex is down like a domino.
Tomorrow we might know more.

Out 1 · Oct 17, 2020

Bombing civilian areas is never justified. But Azerbaijan should either evacuate towns and cities close to the war zone, or maybe think twice before starting a war.

Basarili · Oct 17, 2020

Out 1 said:
Bombing civilian areas is never justified. But Azerbaijan should either evacuate towns and cities close to the war zone, or maybe think twice before starting a war.

Ganja is not a warzone.....
You seem to justify it.

Nagorno-Karabakh: Azerbaijan says 12 civilians killed by shelling in Ganja

Rescuers pull men, women and children out of rows of houses turned to rubble in latest escalation of conflict

www.theguardian.com

Out 1 · Oct 17, 2020

"close to the war zone"

Oghuz · Oct 17, 2020

Out 1 said:
Bombing civilian areas is never justified. But Azerbaijan should either evacuate towns and cities close to the war zone, or maybe think twice before starting a war.

Yet you are justifiying it. Also, Armenia started the war. The war can end when they retreat from Azerbaijani territories.

leder · Oct 17, 2020

Oghuz said:
Yet you are justifiying it. Also, Armenia started the war. The war can end when they retreat from Azerbaijani territories.

Really? International reporting says that Azerbaijan started the conflict.

Basarili · Oct 17, 2020

leder said:
Really? International reporting says that Azerbaijan started the conflict.

Armenia started to bombing the pipe lines because they are missing out on a huge pipeline deal.

Also do we have Russian speaking friends here? Can someone please translate what he says.

People do forget or not mention that Israel is heavily helping Azerbeidzan.

Out 1 · Oct 17, 2020

Oghuz said:
Yet you are justifiying it. Also, Armenia started the war. The war can end when they retreat from Azerbaijani territories.

By this point it's an established fact that Azerbaijan started this war. Also, without any doubt, it can be said that Turkey is heavily involved and ships combatants from Syria to Azerbaijan. All of this has been confirmed by France, Russia, US, and other EU countries.

C.R.E.A.M. · Oct 17, 2020

This fucking year man, always something new

Joni · Oct 17, 2020

12GameParlay said:
This fucking year man, always something new

Not really. Azerbaijan has been breaking the ceasefire from time to time for 5 years now.

Shodan14 · Oct 17, 2020

Joni said:
Not really. Azerbaijan has been breaking the ceasefire from time to time for 5 years now.

And the conflict has been ongoing since 1988.

Basarili · Oct 17, 2020

Out 1 said:
By this point it's an established fact that Azerbaijan started this war. Also, without any doubt, it can be said that Turkey is heavily involved and ships combatants from Syria to Azerbaijan. All of this has been confirmed by France, Russia, US, and other EU countries.

Have you read the UN resolution and know what it says?

I noticed that some people do not know the facts and have zero clue about what is what or since when this conflict is going on.

We can't talk when both sides are saying I'm right.

Out 1 · Oct 17, 2020

Basarili said:
Have you read the UN resolution and know what it says?

I don't think you understand what those resolutions really say :)

Basarili · Oct 17, 2020

Out 1 said:
I don't think you understand what those resolutions really say :)

Explain to me. or show me a source of what you mean. I'm here to listen.

Jibreel · Oct 17, 2020

Armenia has had close to 30 years to withdrawal from Azerbaijani territory but they've refused too. This is the problem with UN Security Council Resolutions that do not get enforced. It leaves room for parties involved to escalate the situation. Why would Azerbaijan want to now go back to the negotiation tables when they are making head way on the ground and nothing was achieved in the past 30 years by the other parties.

Oghuz · Oct 17, 2020

Out 1 said:
By this point it's an established fact that Azerbaijan started this war. Also, without any doubt, it can be said that Turkey is heavily involved and ships combatants from Syria to Azerbaijan. All of this has been confirmed by France, Russia, US, and other EU countries.

The war started in 1988 when Armenia illegaly decided that Nagorno-Karabakh is theirs.

Basarili · Oct 17, 2020

For people who think that Turkey is backing Azerbaijan are very wrong.
I recommend to look at the facts and how Israel supports and still supports Azerbaijan

Out 1 · Oct 17, 2020

Basarili said:
Explain to me. or show me a source of what you mean. I'm here to listen.

Sure. I'm not an expert. Look here - https://2001-2009.state.gov/p/eur/rls/or/13508.htm

Basically, the text mentions the Republic of Armenia once:
" Urges the Government of the Republic of Armenia to continue to exert its influence to achieve compliance by the Armenians of the Nagorny-Karabakh region of the Azerbaijani Republic with its resolution 822 (1993) and the present resolution, and the acceptance by this party of the proposals of the Minsk Group of the CSCE; "

Which they did.

It's worth mentioning that these resolutions were praised by all parties to the conflict and all members of the OSCE group, including Armenia.

Out 1 · Oct 17, 2020

Oghuz said:
The war started in 1988 when Armenia illegaly decided that Nagorno-Karabakh is theirs.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:JOC_1988_235_R_0080_01&from=EN

Joint resolution replacing Docs. B2-538 and 587/88

Thursday, 7 July 1988
RESOLUTION on the situation in Soviet Armenia
The European Parliament,

1. Condemns the violence employed against Armenian demonstrators in Azerbaijan;

2. Supports the demand of the Armenian minority for reunification with the Socialist Republic of Armenia;

3. Calls on the Supreme Soviet to study the compromise proposals from the Armenian delegates in Moscow suggesting that Nagorno-Karabakh be temporarily governed by the central administration in Moscow, temporarily united to the Federation of Russia or temporarily placed under the authority of a 'presidential regional government';

4. Calls also upon the Soviet authorities to ensure the safety of the 500 000 Armenians currently living in Soviet Azerbaijan and to ensure that those found guilty of having incited or taken part in the pogroms against the Armenians are punished according to Soviet law;

5. Instructs its President to forward this resolution to the Council, the Commission and the Government of the Soviet Union.

Out 1 · Oct 17, 2020

Despite how Azerbaijan and Turkey want to frame this conflict, this is not an issue of seizure of land, but an issue of people's right to self-determination.

+

The Syrian Mercenaries Fighting Foreign Wars for Russia and Turkey | Elizabeth Tsurkov

“They sent us directly to the front lines. The situation is terrible. Terrible. There is fighting every day. We are charged with storming. There is no

www.nybooks.com

Commedieu · Oct 17, 2020

Ganja is no where near the disputed area...I saw that map when they got struck. Afaik, armenia is denying it. The president of armenia is also supporting the side that says turkey is helping. Asking if the un gave them a green card. Turkey is allegedly using nato supplies to carry all of this out. Azerbaijan's president also says they're using turkey drones, but wouldn't clarify how many as per a france24 interview. I believe armenian cities have also been hit, also outside of the disputed area.

This is an important update. But, others need to fill in information without bias.

Out 1 · Oct 17, 2020

Commedieu said:
Ganja is no where near the disputed area...I saw that map when they got struck. Afaik, armenia is denying it. The president of armenia is also supporting the side that says turkey is helping. Asking if the un gave them a green card. Turkey is allegedly using nato supplies to carry all of this out. Azerbaijan's president also says they're using turkey drones, but wouldn't clarify how many as per a france24 interview. I believe armenian cities have also been hit, also outside of the disputed area.

This is an important update. But, others need to fill in information without bias.

Valid points, thanks. *removed to avoid confusion*

How much faith can we put in reports coming from Azerbaijan? France24 journalist, one of few foreign reporters who were allowed inside Azerbaijan, had this to say:

Jibreel · Oct 17, 2020

Out 1 said:
Valid points, thanks. Re how near it is - 40 km isn't very far given capabilities of some modern weapons.

How much faith can we put in reports coming from Azerbaijan? France24 journalist, one of few foreign reporters who were allowed inside Azerbaijan, had this to say:

Are you arguing that Ganja and other cities not near the the conflict zone (Mingachevir) weren't bombed? There is footage of the dead bodies, the destroyed buildings, and aerial photos of the area.

Its quite clear that Armenia is trying to provoke Azerbaijan to retaliate by attacking Armenia proper so that Russia can get involved militarily. Russia up to this point has said that they don't hold the view that Azerbaijan is attacking Armenian territory as they don't the view the disputed areas as Armenian.

Out 1 · Oct 17, 2020

where exactly did i say that? france24 clip is unrelated to Ganja.

9-Volt · Oct 17, 2020

The whole thing sounds like a proxy war between Erdogan and Putin. Erdogan had been trying to push Putin's patience to its limits and now though his Turkish ultranationalist alliance, he's got a new weapon called Ilham Aliyev.

Hopefully this ends with that crooked Aliyev dynasty removed from power. Fuck dictators.

spineduke · Oct 17, 2020

leder said:
Really? International reporting says that Azerbaijan started the conflict.

They did, but have no doubt that the usual propoganda machines are already in progress to distort the narrative.

Out 1 · Oct 17, 2020

9-Volt said:
The whole thing sounds like a proxy war between Erdogan and Putin. Erdogan had been trying to push Putin's patience to its limits and now though his Turkish ultranationalist alliance, he's got a new weapon called Ilham Aliyev.

Hopefully this ends with that crooked Aliyev dynasty removed from power. Fuck dictators.

That'll be good for everyone, especially Azeri people.

I think so far Putin has been careful in not picking a side. Russia's primary role in this conflict is of a mediator.

Commedieu · Oct 17, 2020

Out 1 said:
Valid points, thanks. *removed to avoid confusion*

How much faith can we put in reports coming from Azerbaijan? France24 journalist, one of few foreign reporters who were allowed inside Azerbaijan, had this to say:

I'm saying it seems turkey is involved, as well as Israel on the Azeri's side.... the France24 journalist was interviewing the president or a representative of Azerbaijan Re: Drones. Your own OP seems to suggest Turkey is involved. Seems like all sides seem to be pointing a finger at Turkeys aid. The reporting from france 24 was a interview with the source in english. -- im going to double check and they said turkey drones. Give me a minute, dealing with a toddler here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUhXEJ0RLu4 this was the video though.

The other sources are from the respective nations own words. I'm not suggesting france24s reporting is the sole source of anything.

Guddha · Oct 17, 2020

Asides from the bombing of civilians, this has now reached the level of Azeri soldiers executing Armenian pows and Armenian soldiers beating a dying Azeri to death (these videos among others are circulating social media), so I don't think a peaceful resolution is in the cards. I don't know how much more things can escalate though with the conflict turning into WW1-esque trench warfare with suicide drones instead of artillery. The Azeris would have to advance uphill in mountainous terrain against an entrenched enemy. They are running into Armenian landmines making any such push untenable, and it seems their mechanized force is almost entirely fighting vehicles with no engineering such as minesweepers present.

Putting the realities on the ground aside, Turkey is absolutely involved in this conflict. Not only are they funneling supplies and weapons, but they are transporting fighters from Syria to Azerbaijan.

Glasgow Mega-Snake · Oct 17, 2020

Oghuz said:
The war started in 1988 when Armenia illegaly decided that Nagorno-Karabakh is theirs.

It's more complicated than that.

100 years ago Armenia and Azerbaijan were already fighting over Nagorno-Karabakh, and to end that conflict the Soviets integrated it into the Azeri SSR. What happened in 1988 was just the previous conflict breaking out again.
And before that it was a disputed territory changing hands between empires all the time. There really is no clear answer who it belongs to

UnderNewOwnership · Oct 17, 2020

Guddha said:
Putting the realities on the ground aside, Turkey is absolutely involved in this conflict. Not only are they funneling supplies and weapons, but they are transporting fighters from Syria to Azerbaijan.

Erdogoon using Syrian refugees as cannon fodder would be completely on point with him. Absolutely garbage individual.

Commedieu · Oct 17, 2020

Armenia, Azerbaijan announce new attempt at cease-fire

BAKU, Azerbaijan (AP) — Armenia and Azerbaijan on Saturday announced a new attempt to establish a cease-fire in their conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh starting from midnight, a move that comes a week after a Russia-brokered truce frayed immediately after it took force.

apnews.com

Armenia, Azerbaijan agree new Nagorno-Karabakh truce: Live

Armenia and Azerbaijan agree on a ceasefire from midnight, hours after a missile attack kills civilians in Ganja.

www.aljazeera.com

Armenia, Azerbaijan agree new Nagorno-Karabakh truce: Live

Out 1 · Oct 17, 2020

hopefully the ceasefire holds

Basarili · Oct 18, 2020

There is already a SU125 down \. The Armenians where attacking military positions again.

There is one strange thing. I see people saying there are soldiers from Syria within Armenia?
Do you all watch the videos and can't you see that all attacks are being carried out by Israeli made Drones?
Azerbaijan does not even have a ground troop. The Armenians have deployed defensive line after defensive line in Krabaq.
It is only thanks to Israel that Azerbaijan is winning. They also have Turkish drones which are being shot down by the S300.

For people who really think that Turkey is involved I recommend you to look at Israel and Azerbaijan brothership.

I recommend people to listen to these Israeli experts.

Armenian woman begs Israel to stop weapon sales to Azerbaijan.

One last thing which I have not seen is that Iran is helping Armenia and Georgia is not. Iran has opened all borders with Armenia for weapon sale and Georgia is not helping.

spineduke · Oct 18, 2020

Out 1 said:
hopefully the ceasefire holds

didn't hold for even half a day, Turkish war machine doesn't have time for ceasefires. I'm wondering how much of this Turkish expansionism is happening under the pressure of the American elections.

Joni · Oct 18, 2020

spineduke said:
didn't hold for even half a day, Turkish war machine doesn't have time for ceasefires. I'm wondering how much of this Turkish expansionism is happening under the pressure of the American elections.

Trump gave four years of free reign to American aligned bad faith actors like Turkey, Saudi and Israel giving the Middle East just more conflicts than it had four years ago.

Basarili · Oct 18, 2020

spineduke said:
didn't hold for even half a day, Turkish war machine doesn't have time for ceasefires. I'm wondering how much of this Turkish expansionism is happening under the pressure of the American elections.

The misinformation in this thread is at a huge level.

Out 1 · Oct 18, 2020

Basarili said:
The misinformation in this thread is at a huge level.

sure

Turkey currently has problems with/openly invaded Syria, Iraq, Libya, Israel, Cyprus, Greece, and Armenia.

and I get Erdogan: he keeps pushing and sees no resistance. not from the EU, not from Russia and certainly not from the US. why would he stop now?

Commedieu · Oct 18, 2020

Basarili said:
The misinformation in this thread is at a huge level.

Elaborate please.

spineduke · Oct 18, 2020

Basarili said:
The misinformation in this thread is at a huge level.

There is nothing remotely outlandish with what I stated. Turkey has several active fronts in a huge list of countries, and they have history with Armenia (they committed the Armenian Genocide). There is a strongman war going on between Erdogan, Putin and Khomeini

Out 1 · Oct 19, 2020

Erdogan Does What He Can Get Away With

Turkey’s adventurism abroad is driven by opportunity and impunity.

www.bloomberg.com

spineduke · Oct 19, 2020

Out 1 said:
Erdogan Does What He Can Get Away With

Turkey’s adventurism abroad is driven by opportunity and impunity.

www.bloomberg.com

Erdogan and Kashmir - thats a new one. All he does is to appease his populist base.

Out 1 · Oct 24, 2020

brilliant reporting from Russia's Novaya Gazeta. via Google Translate:

According to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights , 134 Syrian citizens have been killed in the fighting in Nagorno-Karabakh to date . 13 of them - in the last 48 hours. All of them were recruited by Turkish citizens to participate in the conflict on the side of Azerbaijan.

Our sources give different, much larger numbers of casualties among the Syrians. According to information shared with Novaya by representatives of the secular opposition in Syria, since the beginning of the conflict in Karabakh , more than 185 Syrian mercenaries have been killed. Some Syrians sent to Azerbaijan have already turned to their Turkish curators with a request to help them return to their homeland - without paying the due salary.

Here are the names of the Syrian warlords directly involved in the recruitment.

Mustafa Seijari is one of the commanders of the "Syrian National Army" formed under the auspices of Turkey, who previously represented the "Mutasim" combat brigade in Northern Syria.

Abu Amsha is the leader of the Suleiman Shah brigade.

Seif Abu Bakr is the leader of the Hamza Brigade.

The commanders of the Sultan Murat brigade.

The mercenaries were offered attractive conditions: a monthly salary of $ 1,800, which the fighter would receive immediately upon his return. In case of non-return, his family will receive this money, as well as another $ 30,000.

1800 долларов за Карабах. «Новая» публикует имена, механизм вербовки, условия, на которых сирийские боевики едут воевать в Закавказье — Новая газета

Информация о том, что Турция отправляет сирийских боевиков в Азербайджан с самого начала карабахского кризиса, многократно становилась предметом официальных дипломатических заявлений. Однако по сей день Турция и Азербайджан опровергают эти факты. «Новая» публикует имена, механизм вербовки...

novayagazeta.ru

Out 1 · Oct 24, 2020

Erdogan is planning a new world order in which Turkey is the rising star

***

www.haaretz.com

Basarili · Oct 26, 2020

OP Everything else fine with you?
Just curious asking it in a friendly way.
No Obsessive Love disorder with Erdogan?

I do not want to post much here as it sounds like I support the Turks, but... Azerbaijan is not using any groundforce... why would they need Syrian fighters?
The Azerbaijani army is using only drones and artillery.

PS: About the Syrian soldiers. They all have Kurdish name and affiliated with PKK. A bit weird to see PKK fight for Azerbaijan if you ask me.

spineduke · Oct 26, 2020

Obssessive love disorder with Erdogan? Could you be less genuine in your depiction of the crisis at hand? And multiple sources have confirmed Syrian mercenaries on the ground, so unless you have some compelling evidence, please kindly keep your lies to yourself.

Basarili · Oct 26, 2020

I follow some army telegram pages which I can not give links in here. These telegram pages are from both army sides. Dashcam footage and and videos taken by soldiers are put on there. Don't ask for a private message. If you have Telegram you can find out the pages.

AcademicSaucer · Oct 26, 2020

The fact that Turkry is shipping militants from Syria to fight for Azerbaijan against Armenia says everything, I only hope Russia doesn't start sending little green men to fight on the other side, Thus can easily turn into chechen fighters shooting at each other while fighting for different sides.

spineduke · Oct 26, 2020

Well, there you have it - sourcing from a private messaging app closed group is one of the primary vectors for fake news. Good luck.