Season 1 was worlds above season 2. Just my gut feeling and reaction having watch both weekly as they released.
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Forbes Contributor: Disney’s ‘Star Wars’ Has Been Swallowed Whole By Nostalgia (The Mandalorian S2 spoilers)
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It's so weird, yes part of the fandom is toxic. But reading all these critics I'm beginning to think that there's also a big toxic part there.
Like the fact that Luke showing up is triggering these articles, when in the context of what's happening the scene actually serves a purpose. And the way Luke shows up actually makes sense for the story. But apparently Luke fighting in a hallway is the same as Vader in R1 in the eyes of these people. But narratively that couldn't be further from the truth.
Vader in R1 has absolutely no consequence for the story. The rebels are already on the backfoot trying to escape and Vader appearing doesn't change anything in that regard. The rebels were struggling to get the data and escape, Vader could be entirely out of the film at that part and nothing would change.
Luke appearing actually does impact the characters and the story in a way that makes sense. First, Luke doesn't show up out of nowhere when Grogu literally calls out through the force in the previous episode, firmly establishing a force user is bound to show up in the season finale. But narratively it's also building towards Din and Grogu having to say goodbye to each other. Now as a Mandalorian he's incredibly capable of protecting the child. So whoever is taking Grogu away has to be shown to be at least, if not more, capable of protecting him.
So when Luke shows up it pays off Grogu reaching out with the force. Then Luke dispatching the droids while Din is watching from the screens (which is something they want you to see) is narratively setting up Din's trust that Grogu will be in good hands. If Din would've felt the need to help during the fight it would completely undermine the trust that is supposed to build up in that sequence. During the fight Din even gets his last time protecting Grogu when he dives in front of him catching the bolt. If there was any time for Luke to fight the way he fought it was now, against droids while narratively providing context for the next story moments.
So when I see people comparing the Vader hallway scene and the Luke scene and coming to the same "Fanservice" reasoning, I'm just scratching my head. It just seems to me these people have issues with Luke appearing due to the fact it makes the "other side" happy. Calling Luke's appearance empty fanservice is on the same level as trying to find depth in the Vader hallway scene. Guess they are just two sides of the same coin.
Like the fact that Luke showing up is triggering these articles, when in the context of what's happening the scene actually serves a purpose. And the way Luke shows up actually makes sense for the story. But apparently Luke fighting in a hallway is the same as Vader in R1 in the eyes of these people. But narratively that couldn't be further from the truth.
Vader in R1 has absolutely no consequence for the story. The rebels are already on the backfoot trying to escape and Vader appearing doesn't change anything in that regard. The rebels were struggling to get the data and escape, Vader could be entirely out of the film at that part and nothing would change.
Luke appearing actually does impact the characters and the story in a way that makes sense. First, Luke doesn't show up out of nowhere when Grogu literally calls out through the force in the previous episode, firmly establishing a force user is bound to show up in the season finale. But narratively it's also building towards Din and Grogu having to say goodbye to each other. Now as a Mandalorian he's incredibly capable of protecting the child. So whoever is taking Grogu away has to be shown to be at least, if not more, capable of protecting him.
So when Luke shows up it pays off Grogu reaching out with the force. Then Luke dispatching the droids while Din is watching from the screens (which is something they want you to see) is narratively setting up Din's trust that Grogu will be in good hands. If Din would've felt the need to help during the fight it would completely undermine the trust that is supposed to build up in that sequence. During the fight Din even gets his last time protecting Grogu when he dives in front of him catching the bolt. If there was any time for Luke to fight the way he fought it was now, against droids while narratively providing context for the next story moments.
So when I see people comparing the Vader hallway scene and the Luke scene and coming to the same "Fanservice" reasoning, I'm just scratching my head. It just seems to me these people have issues with Luke appearing due to the fact it makes the "other side" happy. Calling Luke's appearance empty fanservice is on the same level as trying to find depth in the Vader hallway scene. Guess they are just two sides of the same coin.
Season 1 was honestly very average. Without Baby Yoda, it didn't have a ton going for it.
Just let people be happy with totally average nerdy shit. Imagine the people still talking about this show in 10 years - you don't wanna be a part of that.
Baby
When they named him in season 2 I just rolled my eyes. So bad....
like baby yoda is easily the worst part of the show. Pretty much a merchandising opportunity.
When they named him in season 2 I just rolled my eyes. So bad....
That was my main takeaway from the scene. The music ("A Friend") playing during that scene wasn't particularly heroic or happy, and it fit with the sense of sadness that Grogu will ultimately part with Din. Pretty sure Grogu didn't feel too happy when looking at the monitors as Luke cut through the troopers. Luke was ultimately just a cameo in that episode, and it didn't feel like nostalgia for nostalgia's sake.
you don't have to relate to the hero, relatable one form of story telling, ideal heroes are different form, they ones strive to be not the ones relate to, you don't relate to superman or wonder woman but their ideals you can strive for, what tlj did was say for most of the movie you shouldn't be like luke you shouldn't be that ideal, because you will just wind up a bitter old man, who ran away, whose action didn't make the world and he didn't, that strive be that ideal you will just bitter alone and everything you tried will mean nothing that's the take away i got from tlj did until the final climax when it's too little too late
luke is a legend a legend that inspired millions of people, tlj spent a good bit of that plot being "you shouldn't meet your heroes" and "you should strive for those heroic ideals", and if like you said the movie realizes luke wrong at the end and you were take away from, then WHY IS LUKE TELLING REY HE WAS WRONG TO RUN AWAY AND ACT LIKE HE DID ON ACTO IN THAT SCENE IN TROS A HATED PLOTPOINT
Not every story follows giuidelines, some don't and are very good stories , some do and are bad, there is no write a story, but there is definitely a wrong way to do things, taking a person who an inspriration for some many, people and turning into a person that you no longer want to be is wrong, i don't want to be the luke in tlj, the one biiter the one who hates his life, the one who believed he was wrong to try to make the world a better place, the one who was bitter alone and died alone, not surrounded by his friends, not surrounded by his family, not in a better galaxy that he made better. I stopped wanting to strive for ideal luke set.
he's relatable sure but he is no longer someone i want to strive for that is something LUKE SHOULD NEVER BE
I'd like to see this. The current setting has become played out for me. There is no surprise or intrigue because I know what's going to happen as they keep retreading the same ground. There must be a well groomed pathway through the desert at this point.
Learning about the Mandalorian culture is interesting, I don't know why it can't just be about that.
Yes absolutely. Even with Luke showing up the way he did, at the end of the day the emotional core of the story is the relationship between Din and Grogu.
I enjoyed Season 2 quite bit, but yes it was driven by a mix of nostalgia for the new and the old. I think it was kept to a relative minimum, though episode 14 with Boba going ham was like a fanfic's wet dream. The finale was actually great up until we got Luke showing up. It was neat, but it was also another moment of the original getting in the way of the show. The wider universe got in the way of these smaller bounty hunter stories.
I will gush here for Bo Katan and Ahsoka Tano as it was nice to at least seem them alive after the end of Original Trilogy. Kind of bullshit she left it all to Luke tho.
I will gush here for Bo Katan and Ahsoka Tano as it was nice to at least seem them alive after the end of Original Trilogy. Kind of bullshit she left it all to Luke tho.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion but I feel like this person forgot they were enjoying Star Wars at some point. And as for the Mandalorian, it took an almost entirely fresh take on the franchise. So you-know-who shows up for several minutes at the conclusion of the main story. Big deal. Again, Star Wars.
I have to disagree. I think Favreau and Filoni created a more consistent product in season 2 but the characters and story suffered.
For example as a very casual SW fan season 1 had more engaging characters that didn't require a wookieepedia deep dive or pre-existing reverence to enjoy fully.
Werner Herzog as The Client. A very enjoyable antagonist throughout season 1 and brought a street level perspective/menace we don't typically get in SW. I enjoyed Giancarlo Esposito's Gideon introduction in the finale of season 1 but he just did not work as a foil in season 2. Esposito's great but he seemed checked out just doing stock Empire stuff. Of all his three villain roles he's currently playing (Better Call Saul, The Boys, Mando) Gideon is the most forgettable/generic.
Nick Nolte as Kuiil. A new character that had a complete arc and made a meaningful contribution to the story. Not only was he part of Mando's crew but due to Nick Nolte's subtle performance and the show being a bit slower in season 1 the character felt like he had a rich inner life.
Taika Waititi as IG-11. Not a completely new character since its based on the IG-88 model from ESB but Taika makes the character his own and you end up rooting for IG's growth/redemption by the end.
Carl Weathers Greef Karga. At this point I'm repeating myself but Greef was just a fun new character in the SW's universe. Carl Weathers scummy uncle charisma was great and the character was actually able to grow and change over the course of season one. The biggest flaw of season 2 is that Greef was only in 1 episode vs the 4 he was in for season 1. Gina Carano's Cara Dune was in 4 episodes in season 2 and she literally dragged down every scene she was in. She's an awful actress and doesn't have any chemistry with anyone in the cast.
I'll condense my thoughts on the clone wars/rebels/ legacy characters because my problems with them kind of encapsulate my problems with season 2 as a whole. None of these characters had arcs. Casual fans are told that these characters are important but not shown. They say a name or use a weapon purely for the sake of the audience that already knows that info and that's it. Bo Katan's entire role in season 2 just feels like set up for season 3 and Ashoka/Boba are there just for backdoor pilots. Since I didn't know these characters coming in to season 2 nothing they did was very memorable to me outside of their costumes.
Season one for all its warts didn't feel like a victim of its own success like season 2 did. Now that the sequel trilogy imploded its very clear that Disney is putting all of its SW eggs into Mando to launch its streaming universe. I enjoyed what little time we got with Din and Grogu but somehow even though the filmmaking got even better this season the world and story feel even more claustrophobic/on rails then before.
Some of those people had waited 30+ years to see Luke Skywalker in action again,
Before the prequels were there the ideas of further Star Wars adventures were always around and something expected to eventually happen.
Prequels happen and then it goes 10 more years after that to The Force Awakens, which extremely hyped up Han, Luke and Leia.
Movie literally ends on a shot of Luke standing there.
2 years after that people go into Last Jedi expecting payoff....
Luke is shown as a failure hiding, we see just a bit of action from him but its immediately revealed as a fake out and then he dies.
I never cared much for Luke but I definitely understand those people.
i think your major problem is you want every character to have an arc and explain their backstory in the show, that in my opinion takes away from grogu and din, lets take the first episode with the marshal, that episode is entirely about the marshal his backstory his town, din is just helping him. Now take the bo and ashoka episodes, these episodes while having these characters put more focus on din and grugu then these side characters, with bo it's shown to make a contrast with din and his zealotry with mandolarians who aren't strict and that he doesn't have to be strict with his rules but also shows that din is a little more honorable than a lot of his mandalorian brethrenI have to disagree. I think Favreau and Filoni created a more consistent product in season 2 but the characters and story suffered.
For example as a very casual SW fan season 1 had more engaging characters that didn't require a wookieepedia deep dive or pre-existing reverence to enjoy fully.
Werner Herzog as The Client. A very enjoyable antagonist throughout season 1 and brought a street level perspective/menace we don't typically get in SW. I enjoyed Giancarlo Esposito's Gideon introduction in the finale of season 1 but he just did not work as a foil in season 2. Esposito's great but he seemed checked out just doing stock Empire stuff. Of all his three villain roles he's currently playing (Better Call Saul, The Boys, Mando) Gideon is the most forgettable/generic.
Nick Nolte as Kuiil. A new character that had a complete arc and made a meaningful contribution to the story. Not only was he part of Mando's crew but due to Nick Nolte's subtle performance and the show being a bit slower in season 1 the character felt like he had a rich inner life.
Taika Waititi as IG-11. Not a completely new character since its based on the IG-88 model from ESB but Taika makes the character his own and you end up rooting for IG's growth/redemption by the end.
Carl Weathers Greef Karga. At this point I'm repeating myself but Greef was just a fun new character in the SW's universe. Carl Weathers scummy uncle charisma was great and the character was actually able to grow and change over the course of season one. The biggest flaw of season 2 is that Greef was only in 1 episode vs the 4 he was in for season 1. Gina Carano's Cara Dune was in 4 episodes in season 2 and she literally dragged down every scene she was in. She's an awful actress and doesn't have any chemistry with anyone in the cast.
I'll condense my thoughts on the clone wars/rebels/ legacy characters because my problems with them kind of encapsulate my problems with season 2 as a whole. None of these characters had arcs. Casual fans are told that these characters are important but not shown. They say a name or use a weapon purely for the sake of the audience that already knows that info and that's it. Bo Katan's entire role in season 2 just feels like set up for season 3 and Ashoka/Boba are there just for backdoor pilots. Since I didn't know these characters coming in to season 2 nothing they did was very memorable to me outside of their costumes.
Season one for all its warts didn't feel like a victim of its own success like season 2 did. Now that the sequel trilogy imploded its very clear that Disney is putting all of its SW eggs into Mando to launch its streaming universe. I enjoyed what little time we got with Din and Grogu but somehow even though the filmmaking got even better this season the world and story feel even more claustrophobic/on rails then before.
with ashoka she is used so that we can learn more about grogu about how he is attached to din and just what that could mean with the future, yes bo and ashoka don't have full character arcs in this show but this show isn't about them.
Now boba is a little more fanservicey but it's not an out of nowhere moment he was set up in season 1 with the intro of the woman he saved, episode 1 of this season showed him and also had us learn that din by his creed and honor must return mandalorian armor to it's rightful owner, meaning we knew we were going to meet him again, and then he came back in the episode grogu was captured calling luke, there is clearly a narrative there and one that will get expanded on in later in a very mcu style. And we got that the original Ot didn't give us some character to boba, yes he is a mercenery but one with a code and is willing to help people who helped him, while he isn't from mandalore he definitely respects it customs to not completely call himself mandalorian but still accepts mandalore as his planet when bo called it out when he and the other female mandalorian were fighting, and he does not like it when people refer to him as a mere clone, that is a lot more than what we originally got. He alsi now has a clear ambition to rule jabba's empire, an ambition we never saw before that is definitely more character than just showing up
Judging by the "fans" reaction to the last Star Wars production that took risks, I can see Disney trying to be as safe (and pandering) as possible from here on out.
Ugh. Just read their plans for the franchise.
I'm done. I was on the fence before, but honestly this direction sounds awful and instead of creating something new Disney is just going back to the well even though its dry. Boring, unimaginative, and creatively bankrupt.
They really had a chance to make something new and exciting with Mando but instead went back to the comfort food... And I just can't give a shit at this point.
I'm done. I was on the fence before, but honestly this direction sounds awful and instead of creating something new Disney is just going back to the well even though its dry. Boring, unimaginative, and creatively bankrupt.
They really had a chance to make something new and exciting with Mando but instead went back to the comfort food... And I just can't give a shit at this point.
Focus on the Mando culture and world of the mandos, the underworld and the other sides of the galaxy. Really the biggest the disappointment of S2 was the focus on lets mow down more stormtroopers. And with more rebel vs imp shows coming, lets step back and have Mando being about new parts of the universe that should be explored more. While S2 was better in some respects, it also just became too focused on the same old, an oh great, the empire again. Really what I liked most are the episodes that show us the other parts of the universe that isn't about Rebels vs Empire, and jedi.
then you should love happened in the finally, now that grogu is gone no more jedi plots
1)Luke never was an ideal hero. He was a character on a heroes journey arc (which arguably is continued in TLJ). He was a substitute for the audience even in ANH, an easy character to project yourself on. But even when you want to present Luke post-ROTJ as this perfect hero on a flat arc, that would not serve the actual story of the trilogy up untill then very well. A flat arc is a hero with a certain ideal or world view, who gets that ideal tested heavily through conflict, but never wavering, to in the end confirm that ideal by changing the world and characters around them.
But Luke isn't the only protagonist here. He's not even the main one. A flat-arc Luke would not serve Rey's story nor her character. Because Rey is not the person to doubt his ideal, let alone make him doubt. She would only confirm, and not test him. That's who she is. When Rey goes up to Ach-to at the end of TFA, she's there to bring Luke back and hand over duties to him, with the hope he can be the one who shows her the way. That's what she wants. You can't tell a story if you give your protagonist what she wants in the first scene. The story is over, nothing is learned, nothing is told. You need Luke to be reluctant in that moment. You need Luke to make her doubt. The beauty of TLJ is that it takes this set-up to build both characters.
And we as an audience are close to Rey in how we look at Luke, and we're taken aback too. That's why it's so gratifying when he does come around. It's cathartic.
2) Again, that is NOT what TLJ tells us. A stories message is AT THE END. A story can make you doubt yes, can throw you of and make you reflect. So yes, we doubt. Maybe Luke is right? Maybe he isn't the hero we believe him to be. But at the end he's confirmed as that inspirational hero. One who has overcome an extra, very personal set-back (And this is someone we should look up to, because he pulls himself up at his bootstraps, like we all have to do sometimes). It's LITERALLY HOW A STORY WORKS. With your argumentation here, you could also say that The Lion King tells us the whole second act that it's good to run away from your responsibilities and live with no care in the world, to leave the past behind and never look back, because only at the end this is reverted when Simba comes to his realisation you can't leave the past behind, but that you can learn from it. Don't you see how crazy it is to look at a story that way? To deny what it tells us as a conclusion at the end, because it explored other viewpoints first (to show us those are wrong)
And why do you underline and place in fat and all caps something I NEVER SAID? I don't take issue with that scene in TROS at all. Those who do haven't understood what TLJ tells us.
3) Most stories do follow certain guidlines or fit in certain story types. Those aren't a recipe for succes, true, but they are a way to both structure and build a story, as something to analyse them by.
There is literally nothing wrong with telling a story about a hero struggling with his legacy because of a mistake he made, and then have him trough conflict with someone who looks up to him see the error of his ways and ultimately step into his role as hero and inspiration. That's a story as good as any other, as worth exploring as every other. Literally nothing is inherently bad at that idea. It might be something you don't relate to, or something you didn't want. But that doesn't make it a bad story. It just makes it a story you personally don't gel with.
What it is above all is a story that tries to push a series forward, offer new perspectives and explores new themes. Even more, it's actually a story. That's not something you can say from Luke's cameo in the Mandalorian. That's not even a real story on the level of the scene, and it sucks all attention away from the actual story at hand. Takes the agency away from the real protagonists (in the season finale too!). That's what people take issue with. It's basically a slight of hand magic trick to elicit a respons from you as an audience, in stead of having an emotional response to an actual story. (It's somewhat saved by the touching Grogu goodbye, but that doesn't change a thing about the fact the conflict is basically resolved with a deus ex machina that's hidden behind the excitement of seeing Luke.)
In the end I liked seeing Luke in that moment. But boy do I wish it didn't choke the actual story that much, and didn't create such a disconnect between my own emotional respnse and the one of the actual protagonist. Because ultimately, it's a completely hollow moment, that only thrives on callback and nostalgia, and not on the power of story. And that's a damn shame.
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I have never watched the Clone wars or rebels and don't feel I need to. It was cool meeting those characters in S2.
As for Luke... the fact that the Mando crew didn't know who he was is what was interesting.
As for Luke... the fact that the Mando crew didn't know who he was is what was interesting.
I mean if you view Mando as a modern version of 1970s Westerns on TV, you'll enjoy it much more. Those shows always had characters show up who the protagonist knew or had heard of, and drift into the ether as soon as the episode ended.
Which is why I hope this show goes to focus on the mandalorians and the aftermath of the darksaber. Boba went his own way, Grogu is gone (you know he will be back quick). But worry that they left hanging all the stuff with the Empire, unless hopefully that is being moved over to be part of the other shows in the works, but still got the cloning project never explained, Gideon still alive, the name dropping of Thrawn and clearly the very big Imperial threat out there.
I loved the smaller scale of the show as adventures in the SW universe, lets get more of that or at least to be about somthing that isn't just retreading the war with the empire. Folks hated that the ST basically just did this by repeating OT stuff, but it's fine here cause it's fan service friendly.
I want the characters that we spend time with to feel like characters. I don't need fully realized characters from Frog lady,X-Wing Pilots, Squid men, land pirates,seven samurai villagers ect. I'm completely fine with there being supporting/side characters in a story. However, all the season 1 characters I mentioned in my previous post did not explain their backstory in the show yet managed to be compelling characters that also propelled Din/Grogu's story forward. Ashoka does help strengthen Din and Grogu's relationship but she also has an entire episode centered on her where she remains flat. Ashoka has a meta level of importance placed on her because a certain part of the audience knows what she's been through but on the page its just a thin characterization. She has two light sabers and mentions Thrawn. If you want to learn more watch Clone Wars and watch Ashoka on Disney +2023. Same for Bo Katan sure she pushes/contrasts Din but so did IG-11 who actually got to be a character. Bo started off as wanting the Dark Saber and ends the season...wanting the Dark Saber. She doesn't have to die at the end of the season but in lieu of character moments we just see Bo fly in on a jet pack and shoot folks.
I don't want my criticism to come off like I hate Mando. Its a fun show I just thought character work was weaker this season.
there is still going to be conflict with the empire, din agreed to help bo retake mandalore, which the empire is still occupying, conflicts with the empire isn't going away, and we know that because by episode 3 of season 1 din was put on opposition with the empire, anything post rots is going to be empire conflict, the truth is that is because disney turned the empire into completely evil objectively evil, there will now never be a time now that the new republic and the empire could exist and there will be no conflict between them
I thought it was a cool reveal just because of how good the CGI was. There's no way he's gonna be a major character in season 3 tho.
The empire doesn't occupy Mandalore, the empire glassed the planet. The occupation ended long ago, the Empire is supposed to just be on the fringe hiding at this point. They didn't end with Din agreeing to help Bo take Mandalore, that didn't happen, he just agreed to help get Bo the saber and that was a big failure, and now he is the rightful heir to the rule which is a conflict with Bo.
actually din agreed to help bo after his mission to bring grogu to a jedi was completed, it is just now there is a conflict with the dark saber
This may have been discussed in the in between pages of the thread so if so sorry. But, the authors point about Luke being there not meaning anything to the characters at hand seems true in my mind. The characters in general care that a Jedi is showing up. It could be any jedi for that matter. Luke specifcally showing up can really only mean anything to Cara and seemingly it doesn't.
Which is fine, these characters don't need to have an emotional attachment to whatever jedi shows up but its the larger story implications of that jedi that I think matter more. Luke can't possibly keep showing up in season 3, the cgi looked dreadful on him and i assume they don't want to keep doing that. If it was an original character, or Cal, or even a resurrected mace windu they could have played more a role in the story going forward. As it stands all you get out of that moment, besides luke's new hallway scene that somehow made people cry (?), is the moment between baby yoda and mando which i thought was genuinely good. It shows mando's growth as a character throughout but now seemingly the thread they have left to pull, sans a timeskip for season 3 where grogu is trained now (?) is the darksaber nonsense which i feel is very trite.
Overall, Luke doesn't add an interesting and sustainable component to the story going forward, only subtracts baby yoda from the equation, which some may view as a good thing.
Very meh on it overall.
Which is fine, these characters don't need to have an emotional attachment to whatever jedi shows up but its the larger story implications of that jedi that I think matter more. Luke can't possibly keep showing up in season 3, the cgi looked dreadful on him and i assume they don't want to keep doing that. If it was an original character, or Cal, or even a resurrected mace windu they could have played more a role in the story going forward. As it stands all you get out of that moment, besides luke's new hallway scene that somehow made people cry (?), is the moment between baby yoda and mando which i thought was genuinely good. It shows mando's growth as a character throughout but now seemingly the thread they have left to pull, sans a timeskip for season 3 where grogu is trained now (?) is the darksaber nonsense which i feel is very trite.
Overall, Luke doesn't add an interesting and sustainable component to the story going forward, only subtracts baby yoda from the equation, which some may view as a good thing.
Very meh on it overall.
I ploughed through Season 2 this weekend and disliked most of it. I don't hate the fanservice. Luke showing up is cool. Boba Fett kicking some ass is cool. It's all fun. But it can't prop up what mostly felt like a meandering slog. I didn't feel like there were many character arcs or exploration. It was just sequences of events. Bill Burr's character had the most interesting character moment in the whole season. (Episode 7 was, IMO, by far the best episode of the season).
It tells you things like "Baby Yeed was at Order 66" and "Mando was a part of an extremist cult of Mandalorians", but it doesn't really do much with those hooks. Ultimately, the show is just flash and action mostly, and that can be fun, but I prefer when Star Wars examines and studies its characters more.
It tells you things like "Baby Yeed was at Order 66" and "Mando was a part of an extremist cult of Mandalorians", but it doesn't really do much with those hooks. Ultimately, the show is just flash and action mostly, and that can be fun, but I prefer when Star Wars examines and studies its characters more.
Well, I guess TLJ is the most "divisive" in the sense that RoS is unanimously hated instead...
your right it doesn't gel with me because the message it presents, and i am not talking about the message of the actual movie but lukes story that tlj made him have. It is basically if strive to be like luke, to fight oppression, work hard to make the world better, to strive for an ideal, none of what you have done will matter, you will push away every person you care about, you never marry have relationship or have children if you want them, you never be around friends family or anyone you care about, you die alone and people you after you die. that is message lukes whole story now gives. that may not what it says in a vacuum but it's a sequel it can't be taken in a vacuum. TLJ ruined luke to have a story but it didn't understand that doing so it gives the message that striving to be like luke means you will not have a good life, just because it tries to fix him in then it doesn't change what it did to his story to get that moment or the message it gives.
And i wasn't accusing you of saying that i was stating that if TLJ is saying luke was wrong to do what he did in the end with his actions why do so many people say that tros undoes his tlj story by him admitting he was wrong that is a common complaint
Bet the cgi was a hit for the majority of people watching tbh.
This. A lot of the reactions I've seen thought it looked well.
Were most people watching on a 9" 480p display? The CGI was horrible. Like so bad I cannot believe they felt comfortable releasing the episode. Embarrassingly bad. I laughed at the screen when the hood dropped. Makes me kind of worried about the MCU shows, honestly.
This article by MZS touches on some of the same things.
www.vulture.com
Also really love FilmCritHulk's review. I don't really have a problem with Luke showing up, but it could've been done better.
Has The Mandalorian Succumbed to the Dark Side?
The final moments of the season-two finale represent the galaxy-collapsing shortsightedness that has come to define Disney-era Star Wars stories.
www.vulture.com
Also really love FilmCritHulk's review. I don't really have a problem with Luke showing up, but it could've been done better.
I was able to guess who wrote this article before I even clicked on this thread. Mendelson has been clear on what he doesn't want Star Wars to become for years now.
I don't necessarily agree with him (I'm a bit torn about the issues he raises, honestly), but he's definitely been consistent since I've been following him on Twitter.
I don't necessarily agree with him (I'm a bit torn about the issues he raises, honestly), but he's definitely been consistent since I've been following him on Twitter.
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I don't get it.
I appreciate and love TLJ Luke for the message of growth it brings but why is it suddenly lazy and uninspired to enjoy seeing Luke in his prime?
Why am I called a manchild for being so happy about seeing Luke with his green lightsaber again? We got Luke in his darkest state and anyone who disagrees with the idea is either labeled a salty fan or someone who doesn't appreciate "real storytelling". So why is giving people a moment of seeing prime Luke considered boring?
Like I honestly couldn't care less about other fans saying that Filoni is "saving" Star Wars from evil Kathleen cause thats the stupidest thing ever. But sheesh the idea of seeing Luke in this episode is just other people using it as an excuse about why Star Wars is uncreative.
EDIT: I was thinking about it some more. As happy as I am to see Luke again after not seeing him for a year, many of the fans do no good in this. They pit the ideas as some sort of attempt to take down TLJ. Its frustrating. They should be enjoying the scene, not celebrating some crazy idea that this is all a quest to take down Kathleen Kennedy. They're stuck up, pretentious, and are no better than children.
I appreciate and love TLJ Luke for the message of growth it brings but why is it suddenly lazy and uninspired to enjoy seeing Luke in his prime?
Why am I called a manchild for being so happy about seeing Luke with his green lightsaber again? We got Luke in his darkest state and anyone who disagrees with the idea is either labeled a salty fan or someone who doesn't appreciate "real storytelling". So why is giving people a moment of seeing prime Luke considered boring?
Like I honestly couldn't care less about other fans saying that Filoni is "saving" Star Wars from evil Kathleen cause thats the stupidest thing ever. But sheesh the idea of seeing Luke in this episode is just other people using it as an excuse about why Star Wars is uncreative.
EDIT: I was thinking about it some more. As happy as I am to see Luke again after not seeing him for a year, many of the fans do no good in this. They pit the ideas as some sort of attempt to take down TLJ. Its frustrating. They should be enjoying the scene, not celebrating some crazy idea that this is all a quest to take down Kathleen Kennedy. They're stuck up, pretentious, and are no better than children.
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If anything you can argue that Rey's connection to Palpatine damaged the character.
And while I didn't mind Boba Fett in Mando you can argue him getting his backdoor pilot in Mandalorian hurt the series.
I think the finale is a case of a Luke cameo that made a lot of sense, but in an era where cameos and callbacks have almost lost it's impact then you're gonna have to play it real careful to do it right so that people's appreciation of the doesn't diminish over time.
Given the timeline, there is only one logical person to train the most force sensitive being in the galaxy, a person who himself also was trained by a member of that very same and rare species he's about to train. Luke is the only real choice. Maybe they also can tie this into his training of Ben and flesh out what really happened at the Academy that night.
Having it be someone else would just be the writers making bad decision just cause people might think it a cheap move to please fans.
The problem with the Luke cameo isn't the Luke cameo. It's just that the impact of it didn't land the way it should after five years with bad fanservice that rarely contributed to anything worthwhile
Mandalorian is obviously building up to shed light on how Palpatine returned, cloning, and whispers of the New Order (Fett's background could make for some interesting plotlines around cloing). Fuck it, have this show deal with the rise of Snoke. Just have it the background. Use the Mando perspective to tell that Empire story in subtle ways and make it something mysterious.
I think that's a fine direction if they just have it bee some underlying plot that can tie nicely into the one-off episodes in neat ways.
Given the timeline, there is only one logical person to train the most force sensitive being in the galaxy, a person who himself also was trained by a member of that very same and rare species he's about to train. Luke is the only real choice. Maybe they also can tie this into his training of Ben and flesh out what really happened at the Academy that night.
Having it be someone else would just be the writers making bad decision just cause people might think it a cheap move to please fans.
The problem with the Luke cameo isn't the Luke cameo. It's just that the impact of it didn't land the way it should after five years with bad fanservice that rarely contributed to anything worthwhile
Mandalorian is obviously building up to shed light on how Palpatine returned, cloning, and whispers of the New Order (Fett's background could make for some interesting plotlines around cloing). Fuck it, have this show deal with the rise of Snoke. Just have it the background. Use the Mando perspective to tell that Empire story in subtle ways and make it something mysterious.
I think that's a fine direction if they just have it bee some underlying plot that can tie nicely into the one-off episodes in neat ways.
But that's also not what TLJ tells us. It doesn't tell us that 'if you do good and fight oppression and work hard, you'll end up miserable'. Luke being in the state he's in has nothing to do with his good deeds, but everything with how he feels he failed the expectations people had of him. Because he fails he failed Ben as a teacher. And in that shame and guilt he dug into the history of the Jedi order and came out with the wrong conclusions.
And by the end he comes out as the hero, as the inspiration to many, showing us the worth of true heroism. Showing us that our heroes are human, but that they are heroes because they can overcome their human flaws to be who they need to be. There is a reason TLJ ends with broom kid, literally showing us the effect of Luke's deed on the galaxy's downtrodden. It shows us that THAT is true heroism. It's not the act of blowing up a death star or staring down the First Order, it's inspiring others to fight your fight.
And if you all caps something as an argument, I'll read it as aimed at me. Like I said, whoever has that complaint or says that Luke admitting he was wrong hasn't understood TLJ all that much. I can't remember ever seeing that argument made btw. At most I've read complaints about the 'that's not the way to treat a Jedi's weapon'-line as a direct fuck you to TLJ, but personally I don't even have a problem with that, because again, it's a sign of Luke having come around and it's kind of a fun wink imo.
This is a much better article than the one in the OP which goes far better into the narrative and thematic issues these kind of 'nostalgia throwbacks' create. It's a bit of a shame the thread isn't about this and instead about Mendelson's lame 'nostalgia is automatically bad'-take.This article by MZS touches on some of the same things.
Has The Mandalorian Succumbed to the Dark Side?
The final moments of the season-two finale represent the galaxy-collapsing shortsightedness that has come to define Disney-era Star Wars stories.
Also really love FilmCritHulk's review. I don't really have a problem with Luke showing up, but it could've been done better.
Everything in SW post ROTJ is nostalgia driven. You have to sort of accept this in SW or brace for disappointment.
The Mandalorian did nothing new in this regard. Nostalgia started at the end of Season 1 Episode 1 with "Baby Yoda".
Followed by speculation which nostalgia-Character or nostalgia-Character reference will pop up next. Which Jedi will show up? Is Baby Yoda really Yoda? So 40 minutes or so into the Mando series, everything was revolving around the nostalgia because YODA was the main talk.
The Mandalorian did nothing new in this regard. Nostalgia started at the end of Season 1 Episode 1 with "Baby Yoda".
Followed by speculation which nostalgia-Character or nostalgia-Character reference will pop up next. Which Jedi will show up? Is Baby Yoda really Yoda? So 40 minutes or so into the Mando series, everything was revolving around the nostalgia because YODA was the main talk.
huh? There's at least 5 Jedi around this time.
Cal, Ezra, Ahsoka, Luke, and Cere. That's who we know officially exists post purge, but there's likely more. Before you ask, Thrawn being back means Ezra likely is too.
It's not a bad take because the writer is describing what everything boils down to.
Rey WAS cool because she was the hope and lessons passed down to from Luke and that she would stop Ben and hopefully break the cycle. In Rise that was all retconned to shit in some half ass romance. Like in this article that plot idea was killed when she shut the door on Ben in The Last Jedi.
Mando WAS cool because he was a Mandalorian learning to be more empathetic... I haven't watched the second season but it seems to just be a buffet of other more known Star Wars characters surrounding him this season. So he doesnt get a chance to stand on his own.
Ahsoka already turned down training Grogu and we have no way of knowing where Ezra is, although the fact Ahsoka is looking for Thrawn implies he's the answer to finding that out. Cal or Cere were a possibility but we don't know where they are or if they're even alive. So the most sensible choice, the only Jedi that wasn't accounted for and wouldn't require loads of exposition, was Luke.
I disagree with the premise of "Marvel built characters that people wanted to watch on their own - the team event movies were just the icing on the cake." Box office receipts say otherwise. Olds like Mendelson also wouldn't understand because they see everything through a lens of "only things from the 80s and 90s are old enough to be nostalgic about," but a big selling point of Endgame was that it was an emotional and nostalgic-laden journey for the six original Avengers. A huge part of its success is in it being so retrospective. The people freaking out loudest on Twitter over this movie are people who were little kids in 2012 when the first Avengers movie came out.