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spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
I believe in a future where 'smart' people can earn a decent amount of money with crypto games. This is a dream of many and I believe this can come true.

Why do you need crypto games for this? If there is a will for this to happen, this can (and does) happen with existing games. WoW gold farming/selling was one. Diablo 3 RMAH was one. Several TCGs can be used to sell cards, especially MTGO. EVE online is a thing all on its own. Steam marketplace is something people also use to make money. What's new here?
 
Oct 25, 2017
332
Why do you need crypto games for this? If there is a will for this to happen, this can (and does) happen with existing games. WoW gold farming/selling was one. Diablo 3 RMAH was one. Several TCGs can be used to sell cards, especially MTGO. EVE online is a thing all on its own. Steam marketplace is something people also use to make money. What's new here?
Just way more steps to justify using an inefficient and non-scalable data structure like blockchain.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,929
Canada
I love the way people enthused about NFT games are always "I'll just be one of the smart ones and make money."

Never mind that there's always someone smarter than you, or, by directly tieing the game to real-world wealth, there'll always be someone with infinitely more resources than you.

Just "I know a lot about sports so I'll get into daily fantasy sports betting" energy.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
I love the way people enthused about NFT games are always "I'll just be one of the smart ones and make money."

Never mind that there's always someone smarter than you, or, by directly tieing the game to real-world wealth, there'll always be someone with infinitely more resources than you.

Just "I know a lot about sports so I'll get into daily fantasy sports betting" energy.

Not even that, really. People are trying to be the first ones to get in on the pyramid scheme so that they can get a chance to cash out when others buy in. Either that, or "I'll grind super hard constantly to get some marginal gains". Maybe that one works early on before the coin backing the game gets saturated but that's it.
 

finaljedi

Member
Jul 15, 2018
519
Cincinnati, OH
I try to watch these conversations looking for something different to come out of the crypto crowd. But they all hit the same beats. There's the MLM pitch with some condescension for people they figure are technophobes or too simple to understand. Pretty much nothing about the actual gameplay and how crypto makes anything better.

But sure, the games are too complicated for the plebs, because the developers are conjuring money out of nowhere, which isn't how it works. The "value" for these is the fact that the crypto gets cashed out for real money and that money has to come from somewhere. The developers just aren't paying people to play, the money comes from other players. I think the NFT game fans know this on some level and that's why they go in on the pitch, it only works if more people come in and pump cash into the system.
 

Absoludacrous

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
3,182
But sure, the games are too complicated for the plebs, because the developers are conjuring money out of nowhere, which isn't how it works. The "value" for these is the fact that the crypto gets cashed out for real money and that money has to come from somewhere. The developers just aren't paying people to play, the money comes from other players. I think the NFT game fans know this on some level and that's why they go in on the pitch, it only works if more people come in and pump cash into the system.

I really wonder how much self-awareness there is with this crowd. It's too similar to MLMs for me to think most people are aware of what's going on behind the scenes.

But on the other hand it falls apart with even the tiniest bit of scrutiny. If these games had systems in place that actually encouraged people to spend money, why would they be turning around and handing that money over to their players? You don't see Gacha games funneling their profits from whales back into their player base. Nothing about NFTs change the economics of how all this works. It just obfuscates the pyramid enough to hook gullible/vulnerable people.
 

Mokubba

Member
Oct 27, 2017
467
Most are trash but good games blockchain or not take time to build so we will see if someone can crack the code. What I'm looking for is games that are actually fun so it doesn't feel like a job or a chore.

I think these games can work but the extra complexity of having an economic model with NFTs and currency is a lot of extra work I would think for game developers but not something they can't figure out after looking at games like EVE and WoW.

Popular ones I know of are Thetan Arena and Axie Infinity but they have some controversy as well last I read.
 

MegaRockEXE

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,946
It doesn't matter if they're complicated. They have to be games first, and even then have to be sustainable because players need to spend money for others to earn money, and that won't happen unless players deem it worthwhile. We have seen what happens when you make a game designed around trading, Artifact died because baking the economy into the game ruined it. It needs to be organic to a large degree, and it needs to not take away from the game. Put the current prospect, as you yourself are essentially saying by focusing on coins, wallets, profiting, etc into the picture and you get Artifact-but-only-other-people-trying-to-profit-play-the-game-and-aren't-actually-interested-in-the-game which ends up in the scenario I described. Which is basically again, a pyramid scheme.

Like, I've seen a bunch of these NFT games minting "legendary tier equipment NFT's" and they don't even explain what they do, their stats, and why anyone on earth would need this for their game. Imagine being told "oh, you have to buy that 1/1 unique item from that guy over there for real money to clear the next stage, and then you can sell it to the next player who wants to clear that stage, and they'll do the same". I'd just quit because the odds of someone else choosing to spend money to buy from me are.... low. That's not the kind of game most people enjoy, it's like expensive arcade machine gaming.

The whole concept falls apart when it's all about investments, and by nature investments are meant to be recouped. Which really means exiting the investment, so support is only skin-deep.
Excellent analysis and really just shows how disgustingly greed-fueled these schemes are. New-age MLMs/pyramid schemes is all they are, just that they're dressed up in many different ways now.
 

KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,249
I still can't get past the "90% of games will be Blockchain based" quote...
Like... does every big dev studio have one more big game in them before they supposedly switch over to Blockchain based gaming or do they think the market will be flooded so hard, that regular games just get shoved into the remaining 10% of games?
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,993
[Mod Edit: Spam removed]
Did you register on this forum just to astroturf? This is your first post.


EDIT: Your username is celineng.fizen and you linked a page to a game that says it's powered by Fizen Game Studio.

fizenubk80.png
 
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Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
For all this talk of what 'smart' people might do, I'm smart enough to know that me and most of the other 'dumb' people would rather just play regular old games and therefore, this blockchain stuff is not going to take over gaming.

Jesus, what a transparent fucking racket and with the shilling and all, man.
 

Vitet

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,573
Valencia, Spain
But sure, the games are too complicated for the plebs, because the developers are conjuring money out of nowhere, which isn't how it works. The "value" for these is the fact that the crypto gets cashed out for real money and that money has to come from somewhere. The developers just aren't paying people to play, the money comes from other players. I think the NFT game fans know this on some level and that's why they go in on the pitch, it only works if more people come in and pump cash into the system.

Exactly. I was arguing with a friend that the problem is that all you earn on the game you have to sell it to someone still, it's not auto-money (like when you buy a NFT, you aren't richer until you sell it to someone). But he insisted that no, in this game you just earn some in-game coin and can just transform it to real money. And I tried to explain that it just can't work, that you can't just create money of thin air. It has to come from someone. But it was useless, he just keep spouting buzzwords and how awesome it was and how you could earn a lot of money just playing.
 

donhonk

Member
Oct 30, 2017
480
The entire process of mining is about being inefficient. It's solving computational problems that don't need solving really fast so you can make money, and everyone else who didn't solve it first spent that processing power on nothing.

yes this is the insane part, you put it well. Inefficient IS crypto.
 
Oct 25, 2017
332
yes this is the insane part, you put it well. Inefficient IS crypto.
the crazy thing about all of this is that the play-to-win/earn game design can easily be done with relational database technology (which is quicker in transactions and simplicity). the real money auction house from Diablo 3 already did this before they shut it down.
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,226
I just want to play games for fun. I don't care about business opportunities or earning money, inflation, investing or anything like that. As I've said before, I've just has to stop playing multiplayer games because of the sheer amount of FOMO involved, event exclusives, battle passes, so much grinding, Microtransactions, lootboxes etc etc, I just got sick of it and have moved to retro and single player gaming.

I don't want games to feel like second jobs where you're punished for taking breaks and I don't want to play games with another layer to that, especially when it's been made VERY clear by the industry like Square Enix's CEO that "Play to have fun" doesn't matter to these types of games.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,588
Arizona
These games are largely digital economies for the sake of digital economies for the sake of legitimizing cryptocurrency, or more accurately, continuing the growth of crypto prices. They will only ever superficially be "games", that either quickly fade away due to bad design/poor performance/lack of interesting gameplay, or they will become "optimized" into soulless jobs run by corporations who employ "players" with fuckawful contracts/conditions/expectations, with upper management/owners who do literally nothing by siphon off the "work" of the "players", collecting paychecks doing nothing. Meaningless "businesses" that literally exist for the sole purpose of making a select few crypto owners richer, providing no value to the world whatsoever. No "pay to earn" game will be any more than that. A worthless get rich quick scheme, just like the piles of bullshit they're built on top of.
 

ffframe

alt account
Banned
Nov 29, 2021
407
Exactly. I was arguing with a friend that the problem is that all you earn on the game you have to sell it to someone still, it's not auto-money (like when you buy a NFT, you aren't richer until you sell it to someone). But he insisted that no, in this game you just earn some in-game coin and can just transform it to real money. And I tried to explain that it just can't work, that you can't just create money of thin air. It has to come from someone. But it was useless, he just keep spouting buzzwords and how awesome it was and how you could earn a lot of money just playing.
I'd ask your friend to explain how the cash out process works and what possible disadvantages there are. You can't buy pizza you can eat IRL or pay your electricity bill with the currencies used for most P2E games (like SLP in Axie), so posing the simplest question about how he intends to get real "fiat" money out of the game's ingame crypto currency, and getting him to teach you (reason: you might not understand something yourself until you can teach someone) in order to make sure he fully understands the process. These things usually sound too good to be true because they are.

P2E games like Axie already have some people saying they can't work for them unless they hit quotas. There are already larger organizations and groups trying to optimize how these things work. If you're a person going solo, without any backing above you or people below you, you're not going to have a good time "playing" P2E games.
 

Odelpha

Member
Oct 17, 2018
439
User Banned (1 Month): Promoting crypto
Promotion isn't allowed

Crypto.com is excited about Crypto Gaming and is investing heavily.
 
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Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
I'll just post this here and be on my way...


I'll be even more concrete (Jumping to the corresponding chapter):



Such a great video, and sobering in so many ways...
(knew 80%, but some of the cross connections with the financial crash where...frightening)
That chapter is about one of those games and how it "works" in the broader sense.
 

Bufbaf

Don't F5!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,642
Hamburg, Germany
Watching this video and reading the comments is just so surreal. Literally no interest whatsoever in having a relationship with a game outside of profit.
That is because 99% of current crypto game projects have no game connected to it, at all. See: Earth2, Dreamworld and many, many more. They will also never have a game, since everyone involved has absolutely no clue of creating one. They are long-term exit scams pretending to "one day" have the one, true metaverse game, without any idea of what a metaverse is, what a game is, or how to create any of it. But they know games rank well for new potential audience that can get pulled into their thing to pay for, since gamers are used to MTX anyway, and also are quite dumb.

The best you will get for a long time, and "best" is used here _very_ loosely, is (and I feel bad for saying it) Decentraland, which at the very least has an actual game world connected to it. It looks like 2 pre-schoolers made Minecraft out of Asset theft, but it is at least something.

Very few exceptions like Axie do have a game, but don't give a fuck about it. It took only a few days to be completely taken over by "investors" and workforce organizers who have absolutely no interest in actually playing the game, it's solely about making money efficiently by making other players work. The concept Molyneux's new NFT masterpiece is literally built on.
 

Unclebenny

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,766
All this NFT bullshit is revealing to me how there is a corporate layer of people who are basically constantly on the look out for any tech fad/buzzword or movement they can hitch their wagon too. Then either make they millions or impress they bosses.

So much of modern management seems to be change for the sake change because being seen to do something is considered far more valuable than actually putting structures in place that generate qaulity outcomes.

So rather than spend time evidencing then justifying why you might shake up staff structures or improve communication between certain groups, it's easier to just make an initiative tied to something nonsensical. Doesn't matter if it is all a big failure in the end, the fact you made the effort and pushed a vision is what's valued.
 

XNihili

Banned
Jan 16, 2018
221
It's like a P2P game but with only the whales and the whales don't even have the F2P people to brag to ...
 

Joe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,596
The weirdest thing about play-to-earn games is that the concept doesn't actually need the Blockchain to work. As many people in this thread have said, Gold Farming has been in MMOs like WoW for decades. The reason that practice didn't become bigger wasn't some sort of technical barrier that the Blockchain has now resolved. It didn't become bigger because MMO developers made in-game rules against it!

And the reason there are rules against that thing in most fun MMOs is because the obvious corollary to play-to-earn is pay-to-win. If I can make money playing the game and selling my rewards, that means there has to be another player who isn't playing the game, and just buying my rewards. There would be no need for them to buy my rewards if they were easy to get through gameplay, so the buyers are going to be people who skipped the grind to get good items. It's pay-to-win, which casual players tend to hate!
 

XNihili

Banned
Jan 16, 2018
221
NFT and blockchains are supposed to be there so the DLC you bought can used everywhere.
Who is supposed to enforced that ? Do you think EA rather have you buy FIFA Ronaldo 2022 after you bought Ronaldo 2021 or you buying Ronaldo[5/1000] from someone and only having a cut on the transaction ? An why would Konami allow your Ronaldo[5/1000] on PES2024 ? What if Ronaldo[5/1000] is only B Tiers on PES2024 ?
At the end of the day, NFT will only allows people to put more garbage data on one blockchain and having more calculation needed.
 

Gespenst MKIV

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,116
NFT and blockchains are supposed to be there so the DLC you bought can used everywhere.
Who is supposed to enforced that ? Do you think EA rather have you buy FIFA Ronaldo 2022 after you bought Ronaldo 2021 or you buying Ronaldo[5/1000] from someone and only having a cut on the transaction ? An why would Konami allow your Ronaldo[5/1000] on PES2024 ? What if Ronaldo[5/1000] is only B Tiers on PES2024 ?
At the end of the day, NFT will only allows people to put more garbage data on one blockchain and having more calculation needed.

This. The idea of reusing NFT's in different games just shows a complete lack of knowledge of how games are made, even in a situation where the games in question are using the same engine it takes work to take an existing asset from one and make it work in the other and not having it look bad. The easiest solution would be that "Having a certain NFT" unlocks something in the game but as DLC, Amiibo and stuff like bonuses from having saves of previous games show that the NFT part is superfluous, they could just implement a way to check if you bought a DLC for GAME then you can use it on GAME2: The sequel, but why do that when I can sell the DLC for the second one too
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
The weirdest thing about play-to-earn games is that the concept doesn't actually need the Blockchain to work. As many people in this thread have said, Gold Farming has been in MMOs like WoW for decades. The reason that practice didn't become bigger wasn't some sort of technical barrier that the Blockchain has now resolved. It didn't become bigger because MMO developers made in-game rules against it!

And the reason there are rules against that thing in most fun MMOs is because the obvious corollary to play-to-earn is pay-to-win. If I can make money playing the game and selling my rewards, that means there has to be another player who isn't playing the game, and just buying my rewards. There would be no need for them to buy my rewards if they were easy to get through gameplay, so the buyers are going to be people who skipped the grind to get good items. It's pay-to-win, which casual players tend to hate!

Making money off of games without blockchain involvement is actually more "honest". With WOW gold farming, you're just purchasing gold from someone, so you're directly paying them for their labor. With P2E games, it's a Ponzi scheme - the earnings people make come from other people buying into the cryptocurrency backing the game. You only win when someone else loses.
 

XNihili

Banned
Jan 16, 2018
221
People don't play bad games on the promise they'll eventually be made good, especially by developers with zero experience of game development.
I think he means the big editors are the "big players", meaning that when SquareEnix, Ubisoft, etc... will create NFT games, it could be good games, even with NFT.
 

LumberPanda

Member
Feb 3, 2019
6,328
The games will start getting good once the big players jump on the wave, and they will.
The big players have already jumped on the wave, only with normal databases where they have complete control. Valve, Blizzard, EA, etc. Why would they choose to make less money by letting people sell outside of their control?

The only investment we'll see from big players is poor attempts at cashing in because trust-fund-baby investors told them to - like Ubisoft's failed R6 experiment.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,471
in the future, smart people will elevate beyond the masses and only play games to earn real crypto $$$. hope you enjoy staying poor by not being smart.

crypto.com declares it to be so, so thus shall it be.
 

Klart

Member
Jan 23, 2019
441
Yeah it seems like the biggest flaw with the aspect of earning in these games is the built in scarcity that comes from them. Unless you build something really lasting like World of Warcraft or Minecraft for example, most gamers are just going to hop from one game to another and kill the virtual economies that exist.

On the subject of compensation for games, I'm shocked that neither Microsoft nor Sony has adopted a credit card-like rewards system to cash out achievements and trophies. That's technically a "play to earn" model and it doesn't need to involve NFTs at all.
They had that in the US. But now Trophies are to easy to get
 

Unclebenny

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,766
I think he means the big editors are the "big players", meaning that when SquareEnix, Ubisoft, etc... will create NFT games, it could be good games, even with NFT.

A lot of those companies have got involved and all they have done is create marketplaces exclusive to that company to sell some nonsense.

I cannot comprehend what NFTs can bring to a game, that would be inherent to making it a good game. Actual game developers are hugely against it.

All NFTs provide is proof you purchased something and we already have that in games. We've had it for a long time.