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thevid

Puzzle Master
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,304
The thing you are ignoring is that a person in that situation in KOF won't know any of the moves of his characters, won't know how to do a desperation move or much less a hidden ultra super desperation move (or however they are called nowadays), and all characters have different inputs for their moves, but in smash all characters need the same easy inputs to make their moves.

And some of the things you mention in Smash are easy, those are things a lot of us learned just by playing the game cause they are not complicated, and sometimes even intuitive.

This exactly. The control scheme in Smash is standardized across every fighter. No matter who I play, I can run through the 10 moves and have a decent idea of how to play them. Whereas something like Street Fighter, you have qcf + punch for Ryu to shoot a fireball but the same move is nothing for Guile.
 

Anteo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,099
But that´s like teaching someone how to play KOF and just teach them to walk, jump and attack with ABCD. Yeah they can play the game but they don´t know about running, evading, hops, superjumps, grabs, counters, cancels...Exactly like a Smash player wouldn´t know about shielding, rolling, hopping, dashing...I mean in both cases you´re just reducing the games to their minimal expression and disregarding very basic moves.

The thing is, knowing how to pull your specials, and how to recover its all you need to play 4 players ffa with items and do okay and have fun (asuming you have a good understanding on how to move your character in a 2d space). People often disregard the need to learn anything else because in that ffa + items enviroment its hard to see improvement from learning to dodge when items, pokemon and assist trophies can put many hitboxes all around the stage and still hit you even if you attempt to dodge.

I believe that if smash didnt have the party ffa matches and only had 1v1 or 2v2 serious competitive matches then it wouldnt be considered easy to pick up as people who only know how to move and pull specials would get destroyed just like in any other fighting game
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Imagine you want to learn how to drive a car from the start, with no experience at all. So you sit down in a car. Someone else sits next to you, points to the accelerator and says "Look, this is the accelerator! And this is the brake. And this is the steering wheel. That's the most important stuff you need to know. Congrats, you can drive a car now!" That's what Smash Ultimate does. Explaining the basics.

Smash does not teach you ANYTHING about decision-making.

If you actually want to learn something like driving a car or playing a game you need someone by your side to teach you WHAT you should do in a given situation, WHY you should do it, and why you should NOT do what you actually wanted to do.

And that's what game tutorials are for.

I am self taught in Smash, no one told me how to do anything. Me and my brother sat down and just played the game after seeing the short video. We had to since we started with Smash 64 and there was no real internet in 99. While Smash is more complex today than Smash 64, the basics remain the same.

Comparing it to a car is just out there for several reasons. For one, you're allowed to crash and burn in Smash, while crashing your car isn't an option. Don't be afraid to make mistake and to be frank, get your ass beat.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
3,733
I realized this after I played it with my friends and got scraped. I've always been bad at smash and was never a big fan of it because of it. I just accepted that I was and moved on to playing it for fun. But after playing with them and listening to the way they talked...it finally dawned on me that the true reason I sucked was because I simply don't truly know the fundamentals of the game. I just know, a is attack, b is attack number 2, up b helps you get back in the stage, l and r is for block bubble and moving the analog dodges, and z is to grab. That's all I know. I didn't realize people had more than one move with A but that's all I ever did. C stick was to do the smash attack and I would spam that just to get some out. I didn't even know how to charge an attack.....

Why the game doesn't put you through a tutorial that goes from beginner to advance is kind of whack to me. Nintendo is always about this game being casual but how could they have missed this first step? It's weird and sadly lacking for sure.
 

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,328
It has the worst 'tutorial' of any fairly recent fighting game (that actually has a tutorial of any sort. Sorry Tekken 7).

Worse than: SFV, KofXIV, ARMS, DBFZ, GGXrd, BBxTag, UNIEL, MKX, Injustice 2, Pocket Rumble...

All the above actually have an interactive mode that teaches you things and has you perform the actions required.

EDIT: And isn't even an actual tutorial mode, it's just a video that most will only stumble upon if they don't touch a button at the title screen.......
 
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Kanhir

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,887
It has a How to Play video...which you can find by leaving the game sitting at the title screen, watching the World of Light trailer, then leaving it at the title screen again until the How to Play video comes up. Very intuitive and definitely something a first-time player will do.
 

Lagamorph

Wrong About Chicken
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,355
It has a How to Play video...which you can find by leaving the game sitting at the title screen, watching the World of Light trailer, then leaving it at the title screen again until the How to Play video comes up. Very intuitive and definitely something a first-time player will do.
And which doesn't tell you what buttons do any of the actions it's telling you. Just to block using the block button. Real helpful.
 

No Depth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,241
World of Light should've forces you to play as more characters; I've been using Mario 99% of the time

One thing I miss from old event matches in prior games. Not all of them allowed you to choose fighters and instead a chunk required specific character use to complete. Specific challenges tailored around them in a fun way. WoL has that opportunity with the way the map and gating could flow, but it never does. It kind of never tilts the player to experiment despite its design to limit your roster throughout.
 
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Xlad

Member
Oct 19, 2018
1,004
It has a How to Play video...which you can find by leaving the game sitting at the title screen, watching the World of Light trailer, then leaving it at the title screen again until the How to Play video comes up. Very intuitive and definitely something a first-time player will do.
well. It on Movie section too.
 

No Depth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,241
And which doesn't tell you what buttons do any of the actions it's telling you. Just to block using the block button. Real helpful.

Pause menu during a match has a move list that at least explains the special actions. Tips menu in the vault has a bunch of key load screens tips for each character with all kinds of advanced info for move properties as well. (And yea this is all poorly hidden under layers of menus nobody is going to ever see)

But yes, the game sorely needed a tutorial or training mode. Specific challenges for characters that would help the player learn the fundamentals and use cases for both beginners and advanced players that would largely be appreciated by all I imagine. Tack on a fun unlockable for incentive and it's dev time well spent to avoid the stygma that newcomers face trying to suss out wtf is happening when mashing buttons for 10 minutes with friends and get bored or frustrated fast.
 

Deleted member 4093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,671
My nephews can play smash I dont think its thats hard unless you're trying to get good. Even if you want to get good, reading this and that and watching this aint gonna make you any better unless you put in the time
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,721
All it has to do is have the text change depending on how you've customised the controls though. Other games can manage this no problem so Smash has no excuse.

Problem here though is that you can assign an action to more than one button, unlike other fighting games...

What do you think would happen if someone decided to assign Smash Attacks to 6 different buttons?
 

Artadius

Avenger
Jan 15, 2018
245
Could part of the reason why they don't specifically call out the A B X Y buttons be because if you play with a single left hand side joycon controller the buttons aren't labeled like that?

Its the same thing on Mario Party where the game prompts you to press a button by showing all four buttons on the screen with one of them highlighted. I keep confusing my kids when I tell them to press the A button and they look down and they don't actually see anything labeled A when using the left joycon.
 

Deleted member 4093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,671
And which doesn't tell you what buttons do any of the actions it's telling you. Just to block using the block button. Real helpful.
Yeah because you can customize your controls. The same thing happens in any other fighting game punch with the punch button, special move is a direction + kick button. Maybe a lot people just started playing smash/fighting games????
 
OP
OP
correojon

correojon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,410
The thing you are ignoring is that a person in that situation in KOF won't know any of the moves of his characters, won't know how to do a desperation move or much less a hidden ultra super desperation move (or however they are called nowadays), and all characters have different inputs for their moves, but in smash all characters need the same easy inputs to make their moves.

And some of the things you mention in Smash are easy, those are things a lot of us learned just by playing the game cause they are not complicated, and sometimes even intuitive.
What difference do the specials make? All you´re saying is that a Smash player will have access to more "unique" moves, or to a higher percentage of the total moveset of their character. But again, what does it matter that they can hit someone in front in 5 different ways if they have no clue at all about which one should be used? It´s just button mashing at that point, the fact that you can mash more or less buttons is irrelevant.

Imagine you want to learn how to drive a car from the start, with no experience at all. So you sit down in a car. Someone else sits next to you, points to the accelerator and says "Look, this is the accelerator! And this is the brake. And this is the steering wheel. That's the most important stuff you need to know. Congrats, you can drive a car now!" That's what Smash Ultimate does. Explaining the basics.

Smash does not teach you ANYTHING about decision-making.

If you actually want to learn something like driving a car or playing a game you need someone by your side to teach you WHAT you should do in a given situation, WHY you should do it, and why you should NOT do what you actually wanted to do.

And that's what game tutorials are for.
Very well put, that´s precisely my problem with the game. I does not teach you the WHAT, WHEN, WHY or WHY NOT.
 

dlauv

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,507
It's ironic really. It's the most accessible "fighting game," but it's got just as much arcane baggage as any other traditional fighting game - perhaps made even more arcane by its mechanics being exclusive to this franchise vs. other, traditional fighters.

Just find more people on your level and have fun training with them, or check out the N64 game, which is more barebones and should get you going.
 

Deleted member 4093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,671
What difference do the specials make? All you´re saying is that a Smash player will have access to more "unique" moves, or to a higher percentage of the total moveset of their character. But again, what does it matter that they can hit someone in front in 5 different ways if they have no clue at all about which one should be used? It´s just button mashing at that point, the fact that you can mash more or less buttons is irrelevant.


Very well put, that´s precisely my problem with the game. I does not teach you the WHAT, WHEN, WHY or WHY NOT.
Thing about smash is you can do those moves anytime. Every character is not the same and the speed of the game doesn't allow for streetfighter like execution. Theres a reason smash players are good at their game. You dont see many or at all, top MK, KOF, Tekken, SF, DBFZ players being top in smash.
 

60fps

Banned
Dec 18, 2017
3,492
Very well put, that´s precisely my problem with the game. I does not teach you the WHAT, WHEN, WHY or WHY NOT.
Yup, exactly!

That's exactly why I could never get into Smash Wii U and just dropped it for good btw, which was my first Smash. I didn't know where to start, how to learn, or even what to learn.
 

LiK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,017
The best tutorial for the game is from the Smash Directs. Sakurai teaches you everything in them. That's how I learned.
 

TheMink

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,903
Connecticut
3139_609100660294_6310295_34905328_8382872_n.jpg
 

EVA UNIT 01

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,729
CA
Btw if anyone here is lost and wants a sparring partner let me know.
I started on 64 and got into competitive from melee onwards.
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
Smash Ultimate is my first Smash game ever, I actually had to Google how the play the damn game because I felt like I was playing it wrong.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,121
Does this go back to Sakurai's old quote that Smash wasn't intended to be a competitive fighting game? That "how to play" video in the game's intro is probably good enough for the people who don't give a shit about competitive play, or learning the more subtle nuances of general gameplay. In my opinion, if you *really* want to learn a fighting game, you're going to have to seek out outside tutorials. Game tutorials only get you so far. Smash seems like one of those games where you have to want to teach yourself(via sources outside the game) if you really want to learn it's gameplay nuances.
 
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Apr 16, 2018
1,760
This thread seems to be full of people who are just playing Smash for the first time.

The series is almost 20 years at this point, and this is the first time I've heard the sentiment that it's difficult to learn how to play, especially since Ultimate has the most comprehensive tutorial and learning tools of all the games in the series. The mechanics and special effects of each and every move are now explained, launch trajectories are drawn, and every character's move list is available straight from pause. In every other game, you just got the how to play video.

I feel like these complaints are overblown.
 

GamePnoy74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,528
I still don't understand Smash's 'health system' compared to other fighting games...not sure how one gets knocked out or shot of the screen based on your percentage...?
 

Opa-Opa

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 16, 2018
1,766
I still don't understand Smash's 'health system' compared to other fighting games...not sure how one gets knocked out or shot of the screen based on your percentage...?

Hmm, while I agree with many things in this thread (first time I played smash was so different from Street Fighter I was kinda lost)... this is basic. The more % you have, the farther you fly from attacks and/or get smashed out of the screen.

(I know there's probably some expert level mambo jumbo about this, but that's the basic). Just like pokemon, it's very deep underneath, but most people just know the basics.
 

Anteo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,099
I still don't understand Smash's 'health system' compared to other fighting games...not sure how one gets knocked out or shot of the screen based on your percentage...?

You get hit and your % goes up.
If you are hit you will go flying and the distance will depend on your %, higher % = higher distance
*some moves have set knockback so they ignore the %
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,873
I still don't understand Smash's 'health system' compared to other fighting games...not sure how one gets knocked out or shot of the screen based on your percentage...?
The percentage is your damage, the higher the number the farther and faster you fly away when hit. There's a box around the stage that determines when you get killed. You die when you cross that boundary, either from the top, either side, or falling to the bottom. It also means that when hit at higher percentages you will be unable to act for longer, leaving you more vulnerable to being comboed.

Imagine you want to learn how to drive a car from the start, with no experience at all. So you sit down in a car. Someone else sits next to you, points to the accelerator and says "Look, this is the accelerator! And this is the brake. And this is the steering wheel. That's the most important stuff you need to know. Congrats, you can drive a car now!" That's what Smash Ultimate does. Explaining the basics.

Smash does not teach you ANYTHING about decision-making.

If you actually want to learn something like driving a car or playing a game you need someone by your side to teach you WHAT you should do in a given situation, WHY you should do it, and why you should NOT do what you actually wanted to do.

And that's what game tutorials are for.
The issue with this is that there is no one answer to any situation and teaching those decision making skills badly will only make things worse for players.

To take, for instance, one relatively simple scenario that all players will find themselves in often, how do you respond to shield pressure, when you put up your shield and feel that you can't get out of it because your opponent is throwing out so many attacks? In Smash Ultimate you have effectively 4 scenarios, shield grab, roll, parry, attack out of shield. Each of these options has pros and cons that need to be considered (shield grab will lose to an attack and is slow in Ultimate but allows for a followup depending on how you throw them, roll can get you out of trouble but is easy to read and can be punished by a variety of options, parry is technically challenging and depending on the attack may not give you enough time to attack before your opponent, and using an attack out of shield depends heavily on what character you're using, how far away your opponent is, etc.). If you only teach one or two of those four things then you are leading players to a path towards failure and frustration, but teaching them all four before they are ready means they're going to drown in information overload and be unable to actually put what that tutorial teaches into practice. It's an extremely hard balance to hit, and given how many options are always at the player's disposal and the wide variety of differences between all 74 characters, it makes sense why they didn't go all the way with it. Knowing when to teach what and in what level of detail is something that is beyond the limits of what a tutorial alone can do.

That's not to say they can't do better though
 

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,995
Some of the stuff you're asking for is well beyond "the basics". The How-To-Play video in every Smash game so far does a great job of teaching the basics: attacks, specials, smash attacks, grabs, shielding and dodging, the object of the game, the damage system, and Final Smash.

As for the other stuff, it's talked about in the loading screens and in the Tips section, as well as things you'll figure out as you play the game. I didn't completely understand the parry mechanic as people were talking about it before I played. Once I accidentally did it a few times I understood it. I have to disagree and I think Smash does a great job of teaching you the game.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,196
Melee Break the Targets was secretly the best tutorial Smash has had. Getting a good time meant knowing your character's options and how to move nicely.

But yeah, the series wants to be known as casual friendly, so it sadly seems to be trying to hide just how complex it can be by not trying to make modes to teach people.
 

GamePnoy74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,528
You get hit and your % goes up.
If you are hit you will go flying and the distance will depend on your %, higher % = higher distance
*some moves have set knockback so they ignore the %
I kinda get that, thanks...

...but there are times when I'm at like 89% and I get hit by a hammer and it's 'Game Over' and other times I'm at 120%+ and I get shot out of the screen but can recover and get back to the platform, then it's not until it gets to 149% that someone 'dies'...?

I don't understand the consistency or something lol
 

K Samedi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,989
I feel that World of Light on hard is a good way to learn the basics. I never liked Smash so much as I love Ultimate because World of Light is addictive and it forces me to learn stuff I never thought of using before. Once you get a hang of things the whole game becomes a lot more enjoyable.
 

Anteo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,099
I kinda get that, thanks...

...but there are times when I'm at like 89% and I get hit by a hammer and it's 'Game Over' and other times I'm at 120%+ and I get shot out of the screen but can recover and get back to the platform, then it's not until it gets to 149% that someone 'dies'...?

I don't understand the consistency or something lol

just like in other fighting games some moves deal way more damage than others, in smash different moves do different knockbacks. some hitboxes are so strong that will send you flying really far and some others are super weak that even at over 200% they cant kill you. there is actually a pretty complicated formula behind that: https://www.ssbwiki.com/knockback#Formula
 

Timeaisis

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,139
Austin, TX
Unlike most fighting games, it's very easy to learn. There is a lot under the hood but you can play very competently with just the dirt basics.
 

justiceiro

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,664
Imagine you want to learn how to drive a car from the start, with no experience at all. So you sit down in a car. Someone else sits next to you, points to the accelerator and says "Look, this is the accelerator! And this is the brake. And this is the steering wheel. That's the most important stuff you need to know. Congrats, you can drive a car now!" That's what Smash Ultimate does. Explaining the basics.

Smash does not teach you ANYTHING about decision-making.

If you actually want to learn something like driving a car or playing a game you need someone by your side to teach you WHAT you should do in a given situation, WHY you should do it, and why you should NOT do what you actually wanted to do.

And that's what game tutorials are for.
???
What a bizarre comparison.

Yes, smash don't teach you how to play well, but casuals don't need to learn that, and this is exactly what breaks the entire premise of this thread.

This is clearly a complaint about how smash don't teach you how to be competitive.
 

GameShrink

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,680
Smash is one of the most difficult franchises I play regularly. I feel much, much more confident with From Software titles, Monster Hunter and Nioh than I do with Smash, and I've been playing since the first game.

To me, the biggest hurdle is that I want to play the game as if it's solely about positioning. I can't deal with dodges and shielding, and I could scrape by against level 9 CPUs in the first 4 games playing that way. That is absolutely no longer the case in Ultimate, where you need to stay close to high level CPUs and constantly counter them to survive.
 

Deleted member 4093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,671
???
What a bizarre comparison.

Yes, smash don't teach you how to play well, but casuals don't need to learn that, and this is exactly what breaks the entire premise of this thread.

This is clearly a complaint about how smash don't teach you how to be competitive.
This. Pretty much people complaining about how the game doesn't teach you how to be good.
 

mikehaggar

Developer at Pixel Arc Studios
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
1,379
Harrisburg, Pa
I'm basically in the same boat as the OP. I dislike that Up on the left stuck jumps... it's even more baffling that there are also two buttons dedicated to jumping. Same thing with the dodge roll... two buttons to block... why not one for block and one for dodge roll? I wonder if those more serious about the game customize the controls or just roll with the defaults...
 

GamePnoy74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,528
just like in other fighting games some moves deal way more damage than others, in smash different moves do different knockbacks. some hitboxes are so strong that will send you flying really far and some others are super weak that even at over 200% they cant kill you. there is actually a pretty complicated formula behind that: https://www.ssbwiki.com/knockback#Formula
Lol ok, got it...yeah I just play single player modes and all I keep doing is tap up + A and hoping for a home run or a death blow...most of the times it's swing and a miss haha
 

Deleted member 4093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,671
Smash is one of the most difficult franchises I play regularly. I feel much, much more confident with From Software titles, Monster Hunter and Nioh than I do with Smash, and I've been playing since the first game.

To me, the biggest hurdle is that I want to play the game as if it's solely about positioning. I can't deal with dodges and shielding, and I could scrape by against level 9 CPUs in the first 4 games playing that way. That is absolutely no longer the case in Ultimate, where you need to stay close to high level CPUs and constantly counter them to survive.
Well now its time to turn the difficulty down. Level 9 is just too hard for you. If you want to beat it then gotta get better.
 

ZeronosVega

Member
Dec 8, 2017
173
Thomasville, GA
I kinda get that, thanks...

...but there are times when I'm at like 89% and I get hit by a hammer and it's 'Game Over' and other times I'm at 120%+ and I get shot out of the screen but can recover and get back to the platform, then it's not until it gets to 149% that someone 'dies'...?

I don't understand the consistency or something lol

There are a number of factors that go into determining when you hit the blast zone. This includes the weight category of the character (ex. Jigglypuff is light weight), their percentage, the placement of the blast zones (some stages have closer blast zones than others), the intentional/unintentional Directional Influence being used (if you are hit upwards and you smash down-left/right on the joystick, you can influence your trajectory), etc. Much of that is simply learned by playing the game.
 

Anteo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,099
I'm basically in the same boat as the OP. I dislike that Up on the left stuck jumps... it's even more baffling that there are also two buttons dedicated to jumping. Same thing with the dodge roll... two buttons to block... why not one for block and one for dodge roll? I wonder if those more serious about the game customize the controls or just roll with the defaults...

you have to customize your controllers imo, i always turn off the jump with the left stick and move jump to a shoulder button.
 

bshock

Self-requested permanent ban
Banned
Nov 3, 2017
1,394
Smash Ultimate is my first Smash game ever, I actually had to Google how the play the damn game because I felt like I was playing it wrong.

I played the 3ds version briefly but was garbage so gave up. Having picked up Ultimate, I'm slowly learning to play and appreciating the depth of what is supposedly a "casual" fighter.

It really is an amazing game and opens up exponentially when you take the time to learn the basic systems. Button mashers and item abusers will get destroyed by good players but you can still have a good time in FFA's.

Brilliant game and glad I finally gave it the time it deserves.
 

GameShrink

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,680
Well now its time to turn the difficulty down. Level 9 is just too hard for you. If you want to beat it then gotta get better.
Well, I've already done WoL 100% on Normal and I'm halfway through on NG+ Hard. It's moreso Classic mode where it becomes a problem, since the Spirits are a wonderful crutch that you can't use there.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,090
The basics in Smash are terrible, always.

- No tutorial, even the tutorial video is hard to find.

- Confusing menus (honestly whoever designed the menus is terrible at his job)

- Confusing naming (the adventure mode is named "spirits", what a dumb idea)

- Confusing help (there is talking about attack buttons, jump buttons, but it is never mentioned which button it is)

- Confusing menus (yes they are very confusing, still very confused)
Trump?
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,196
???
What a bizarre comparison.

Yes, smash don't teach you how to play well, but casuals don't need to learn that, and this is exactly what breaks the entire premise of this thread.

This is clearly a complaint about how smash don't teach you how to be competitive.
What's wrong with wanting a game to teach the player better?

Casual players don't care? Well yeah, they're not checking out tutorials in other fighting games either, but that's not stopping devs from putting detailed tutorials in some of those.

The lackluster effort is disappointing from one of the biggest fighting games out there, especially when it has so many things unique to it.