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skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,183
i think i played a game or two with "arms" and nothing seemed off. maybe i'm imagining things

either way i always assumed it was due to a tracking issue and never really questioned it. kinda distracting when you get out of the immersion groove but never had too much issue
 

Putosaure

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,959
France
Floating hands are just fine. It's the only interactive parts you have with the game. When Lone Echo released, it didn't made me more immersed in the world to have a cybernetic body ingame.
 

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
Arms are like everything in VR - unless it can be done exceptionally well with as few mistakes as possible, don't do it.

I've never bothered about floating hands, and tbh having seen a whole body demo the perspective when looking at my legs & feet always seems off, not by much but enough to feel funny/weird about.

And this is why Valve are doing the floating hands. They want to create THE killer VR app, and that requires everything to be on point. Valve doesn't want your friends laughing at your janky elbows twitching all over the place, they want to sell headsets/VR as a whole as a legitimate AAA product that is polished as all hell.
 

Deleted member 13645

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,052
Totally. The real eye opener for me was Lone Echo, floating around in space seeing the robot and having the illusion of it being me. In VRchat the appeal was so strong it got me to finally bite the bullet and learn how to model and rig my own stuff after years of dabbling but never really doing anything with it.

Yeah exactly. It's pretty much the ultimate realization of escapism and the power of games letting you be anyone, allowing you to see through someone else's eyes. You become the character, and it's awesome. I love in Asgard's Wrath when I look down and see Norse clothes (or whatever follower i'm possessing at the time) and how it matches with the world around me, it makes me feel like i've stepped into a completely different world. That game in particular blew my mind when I found myself in the tavern place early on and realized the character had a tattoo on her hand, and looking at it up close it felt like my own hand that now had a tattoo.

It's such a cool thing that I find it a bummer when I now play VR games where i'm just a floating head. It's still awesome in that VR way, but now I feel like just a ghost or visitor to the world rather than being immersed in it.
 

GeekyDad

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,689
USA
Glad this topic came up because when I watched the Alyx video I wondered about it, but assumed it had something to do with the VR platform. I've never tried VR gaming, so I can't speak to it, but glad to read that it's not an odd thing and, according to most here, seems preferable.
 

Belfast

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,886
It's always distracted me more (and that is, to say, very little in general) when I look down and see these little spindly arms that bend strangely or hands that twist backwards in ways that are not humanly possible. This is even a thing in bigger budget games like Asgard's Wrath. Until kinematics are nearly perfected, disembodied hands are the better bet. I don't see how it is any more immersion breaking than the many other "disembodied" elements of other video games.
 

Qassim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,532
United Kingdom
It's genuinely interesting to me that there are people that would consider it a deal breaker. It's honestly such a minor detail to me that I've never even really thought about it until this game announcement (and seeing people discuss it).
 
Oct 28, 2017
16,781
Alright I'm gonna go ahead and put my take in here as someone that has played a fair amount of PSVR with a number of different games.

Floating hands is absolutely noticeable and it can be very distracting. RE7 was straight up ruined for me because of floating hands. Thing is, you're not even using motion controllers for that. There is no hand tracking, yet they still went with floating arms. The first time I saw that in RE7, which was my first ever first person VR game, I was so disappointed. I was reminded so damn often that I was playing a game. I finished the game in VR and I never got to the point where I stopped noticing it. On top of that there was all the jarring animation cuts that hurt RE7 in VR for me. I actually feel non VR RE7 is far less immersion breaking. It has its benefits, but there are big downsides to VR RE7. Floating hands is one of them.

With that said, it's not as bad in other games and I think that's because in other games I'm actually moving my hands. I'm interacting with the world and those floating hands are a part of that. It fits fine enough. With RE7 your hands are disconnected. I'm playing game with standard controls and it's jarring to see those floating hands. There's a disconnection and that's why RE7 doesn't land with me. Extremely distracting.
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,443
This is a complete non issue for anyone who has actual VR experience. The hands are whats important, and using approximation of where your arms are is going to be way more experience breaking then just making them invisible.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,648
I was going to say that I think floating hands are a total non-issue, and that I played though all of Lone Echo without ever really thinking about floating hands. But now y'all are saying Lone Echo DIDN'T have floating hands, and I just watched a video and it's true, your hands are linked to a full body, and now I don't know where I stand.

To be honest, I still think I'm fine with floating hands, because even watching the trailer in flatspace, I mostly forgot Alyx didn't have forearms very quickly. I just don't think it'll be that noticeable once you're in the game.

EDIT: Thinking about it more, I think what really sells the illusion in Lone Echo isn't seeing your hands attached to your own body, but that the hands pretty much always act exactly the way you'd want them to. For example, if you're flying towards a wall and you put your hands out to stop you, your body stops moving in a convincing manner. This is especially true if you start to "fill in the blanks" unconsciously by moving your hands in response to the wall coming closer, even though there's no physical wall in the real world that you're reacting to. I think as long as Alyx nails the feeling of your hands interacting with the world, the arm thing really won't matter at all.
 

Ruu

Member
Oct 28, 2017
926
Floating hands looks weird in trailers but in VR I forget about them entirely. It just feels like a natural extension of your own arms. The mind kind of fills in the gaps I guess.
 

Windu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,631
Half Life 2 had no hands while driving. This is a step up.

Anyway, when you are in VR, you don't really notice it or even care...

Controversy sells I guess.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,594
lol, but I want arms blocking everything i see and do.

it looks off in preview, but yeah, have the discussion before you publish the statement.

(but in the nonVR first person game she needs arms. )
 
Mar 29, 2018
7,078
User warned: Hostility towards another member
PC Gamer even had to contradict itself.



Geoff Keighley also weighed in.



And Chet Faliszek as well.




No-arms is the correct design choice, at least until we have full-body tracking. It's not something you notice in VR. On the other hand, arms that don't line up with your own you will notice.

Fuck off

Fuck off







Fuck off


FUCK OFF
 

Quad Lasers

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,542
Everytime I've seen the arms in VR videos, they always look janky AF. Which is fine in the right context, but probably not for a big-budget "serious" shooter.

Not convinced you can make them look good without bolting on additional motion shit to your body.
 

Dremorak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,720
New Zealand
If its not possible yet to do it and make it look good (which without full body tracking, I don't think it is)
Then dont do it at all.

I think they made the right move
 

Glassboy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,550
Man, PC gamer is taking beating with all the replies. I'm pro floating hands. They are not distracting in game and feel like an extension on one's self.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,594
Everytime I've seen the arms in VR videos, they always look janky AF. Which is fine in the right context, but probably not for a big-budget "serious" shooter.

Not convinced you can make them look good without bolting on additional motion shit to your body.
It's probably complicated as hell to render the bones of the arms to match the movement of the hand controls without restricting the movement and also making it not look terrible.

most of the video of vr arms look very robotic in movement, which is fine because they're robots.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
Floating hands are fine for singleplayer VR. I get wanting more, but they are fine, and I can't wait for this tech to get into consumer hands just so this whole conversation can die.


 

Sky

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
97
UK
Its a staple in VR games im afraid. Lots of testing was done by developers and they concluded that floating hands reduce the disorientation/motion sickness as it adds more fluidity to your movements. Things to consider was the arms not matching your actual position that well. Speed of your hand movement to the game.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,938
I don't normally care about the difference between floating hands vs a body. When it's done right, like Echo Arena/Lone Echo, its great. If the hands are all alone, I don't care. Sometimes you don't even get hands, just a default wand model or a weapon.

The problems crop up not when you have a body and its bending awkwardly (and is otherwise just an elaborate skin for floating hands), but when you have a wobbly IK body that affects the gameplay. A game that does this haphazardly is Sword of Gargantua. In the original demo, the body's geometry got in the way of your vision when looking down, this was changed later. In both the demo and the final game, your character's swing speed, weapon swing angle, weapon positioning, overall hand placement, and damage output is tied to your in-game floppy IK arms instead of your actual controller location in real life. The arms also have a processing delay, so they are always lagging behind your movements. It makes the game much harder to play than it should be, but that's definitely not the only problem I have with that game.

Blade & Sorcery and Boneworks are two other prominent games that could be affected in the same way, but I have yet to play either.
 

DJ_Lae

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,871
Edmonton
I'll take floating hands any day - as soon as you connect them to arms then you're going to get all sorts of unnatural arm and joint movements like you're a gymnast falling down a staircase.
 

RyougaSaotome

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,677
I've honestly never had an issue with floating hands in VR and I didn't even know it was something that people complained about until now.
 

travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
VR's like "bitch eating crackers" to some people. Gonna get worse when PS5 comes out and starts getting bigger VR games.
 

IamFlying

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 6, 2019
765
Floating hands are just one of the many ok immersion breaking flaws of current VR, but they are better than the alternative most of the time, because the VR tech is not ready for more than this.
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
I think it looks pretty cheap personally. I mean you play VR for the immersion, but then the first thing you see is floating hands. Takes me out of the game a bit.
 

SomaXD

Member
Oct 27, 2017
786
Sorry but i hate games with floating hands... it is absolutely distracting and looks so stupid... all this great tech and we still get floaty hands... i love the people who just accept its fine...

no... its not fine... its dumb.
 

DammitLloyd

Member
Oct 25, 2017
779
Sorry but i hate games with floating hands... it is absolutely distracting and looks so stupid... all this great tech and we still get floaty hands... i love the people who just accept its fine...

no... its not fine... its dumb.

I'll take hands only over this monstrosity below.

CPHU1Gs_d.jpg
 

Deleted member 13560

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,087
Sorry but i hate games with floating hands... it is absolutely distracting and looks so stupid... all this great tech and we still get floaty hands... i love the people who just accept its fine...

no... its not fine... its dumb.

Not as dumb and stupid as mangled deformed arms. The tech is being worked on and it's not there yet and won't be for a while. It's not like people are saying screw arms forever.
 

Raonak

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,170
I've never really been bothered by the fact I have floating hands. I think human brains are good at adjusting.

infact, having arms would probably be extremely distracting if they aren't exactly replicating your real arms 1:1
 

I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,548
Again, I'll preface this with the fact that I am Team "Floaty hands are fine!".

But I think as we start moving in to this era where physical interaction with all aspects in the game world become more common and prominent, the fact that only your hands are physically there will become weirder and weirder. There are a lot of interactions that won't be doable without a body. There are a lot of mechanics you could have that a body and arms could create. Taking Boneworks for example, you can use your arm to dampen the recoil of a gun because your arm is a physical object. You can balance and carry objects between your arms without actually holding them. In theory, if there's a basketball, you could bounce it off your chest. I get that in this context those are all kind of dumb sandbox interactions, but it's those kind of interactions and experimentation that take the level of immersion in VR to the next step. It's another level of being present in the virtual space.

Now imagine other ways this could be used. Maybe you can have your arm virtually cut off as a mechanic. Maybe you get shot in the arm with an arrow that disables it and you have to pull it out to regain it's use. Maybe an enemy could use a bolo on your legs that you have to cut yourself out of. Platforming in VR probably becomes a lot easier when you can see where your virtual body is in virtual space. I'm just spitballing but hopefully you get what I mean. I don't think anything I just mentioned would require 100% accurate tracking all the time either.

And again, I agree that as it is today (and even in the future) it really isn't all that immersion breaking to have floaty hands, but I'm excited to see more games in VR that have physical virtual bodies and take advantage of them (even if they aren't perfect 100% of the time). The future is exciting.