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GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,607
I think this was Apollo Justice. I think having a new lead and a mostly new cast but setting the game in the same general universe was 100% the right move for Ace Attorney in retrospect, even if the game itself was not short on issues, especially in the last two cases. I always felt like there was a lot of room to make an "Apollo Justice" trilogy, much like the original Phoenix Wright trilogy. Instead, the next two games were spin-offs that starred a character from the original trilogy, and when we finally did get two more mainline games in the series, they brought back Phoenix and largely felt quite a bit tonally different from Apollo Justice, with more callbacks to the original trilogy and even Apollo himself feeling like he had a completely different backstory in Spirit of Justice. While in some ways I think those games are better than Apollo Justice, I miss the tone and cast of characters from AJ. We eventually got the original team to come back and tell a new story with the Great Ace Attorney games, which is more in line with what I wanted, but the world those games take place in feel so removed from the one the other AA games did that it just doesn't capture the same magic to me.

I also think this was Pokemon X/Y. It was definitely not as good as the gen 5 games, but a game that was like those but with a much more fleshed out region than Kalos would have been incredible. Instead, both followup gens doubled down on linearity and having weak post-games, and largely felt like they ignored the improvements X/Y did make to things like the online functionality and training your Pokemon.

Sonic Lost World was the best Sonic felt in 3D in a long time imo, but the level design quality fell off a cliff after the first couple of worlds. Had the game just had more development time it could have been another moment like Sonic Colors where it felt like they figured out how to do Sonic in 3D properly. When we finally got another mainline Sonic Team 3D Sonic a few years later, it went right back to the boost formula that we had before Lost World and felt worse than ever.
 

Xenosaga

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,976
Parasite Eve had some interesting but flawed battle system that I somewhat enjoyed back in the day. But instead of building on it and improving it, sequels went with poor man's RE gameplay and mediocre tps combat system.
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
The Dead Rising games, perhaps? 2 still had the time management aspect, but subsequent games moved away from it
 

solidr

Member
Oct 28, 2017
487
Valkyrie profile: two games with original turn base battle, and later become a tactics game (its not that bad) and now valkyrie elysium looks like an average (mediocre) action rpg
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,366
OP
OP
GamerJM

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,607
So just like pokemon XY? i'm confused to why you think its so different from the followups. if theres one clear division between philosophies with pokemon games is right after the end of BW2, not after XY

My point was that they didn't improve on this as a flaw from XY. They took the bad from XY while not taking the good (the variety of Pokemon available, the online functionality, the super training).
 

Darkknight2149

Ban made permanent due to harassment of staff
Banned
May 27, 2020
6,398
Deus Ex.

I wouldn't call it flawed, but the sequels did their own thing.
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,924
So Phantasy Star 3, a game I love for its ambitions but acknowledge for how badly made it is, introduces a lot of concepts and possibilities into the og Phantasy Star setting that just kinda get either ignored or paid lip service to in PS4. At best, you can charitably suggest one/some of the endings started a causality loop that led to the events of PS2.

Of course, Phantasy Star 4 also disregards a big part of PS2's ending...and Gaiden.
 

udivision

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,031
A weird example, but the the modern Paper Mario Trilogy has a decent foundation in many areas but really comes up short in its main gameplay systems. The same flaw exists to an extent in all three of them in regards to aspects of the how tangent systems feed into the battle system and vice-versa. What makes it weird is that IntSys has already shown they know how to synergize multiple gameplay systems well, but it hasn't turned out as well for them recently.
 

Temascos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,501
Deadly Premonition.

The idea of a small town detective/horror game with a Twin Peaks theme and humour was great. The original game did have a lot of issues (Terrible map system, combat was a bit boring and the QTEs against the Raincoat Killer were not fun) but I enjoyed my time with it.

At a friend's place I played a few moments of Deadly Premonition 2 and I hated my time with it. It just felt worse in every way. I still wonder how the heck that happened.
 

Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,900
Mass Effect

I missed the scope of it. ME2 felt so constrained in every way, narrowed down, minimized. Whether you enjoy it more or not is up to you but there is a clear distinction between both games in their feel and scope.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,470
New York
Agreed. AJ wasn't perfect but it was still a great setup for a new trilogy and era in the AA series. So sad that they abandoned it so quickly. My greatest hope is that they do something drastic and dramatic for AA7 with regards to the cast. Series needs a new lead and fresh supporting cast with their own histories to uncover and personal journeys and obstacles to overcome.
 

Skulldead

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,450
Darksider, good classic zelda clone like game... the sequel make it a RPG/looter and add quest log...
 

steviestar3

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jul 3, 2018
4,430
Apollo Justice didn't even set up a good foundation though. Like there's a reason why they had to desperately keep giving Apollo new backstories in AA5/6, AJ gave them literally nothing to work with.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,239
It would've taken a ton of work, but the Sonic Lost World engine had the potential to produce an interesting 3D Sonic game.

Instead, Sega decided to go back to the Boost formula and completely fuck that up too.
 

SirKai

Member
Dec 28, 2017
7,365
Washington
Final Fantasy XII. The FF games routinely reinvent themselves of course but the regression in design and scope from XII to XIII is just offensive.
 

KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
56,616
Apollo Justice didn't even set up a good foundation though. Like there's a reason why they had to desperately keep giving Apollo new backstories in AA5/6, AJ gave them literally nothing to work with.

Apollo was a straight man in a world of cartoon characters. He just wanted to put his head down and do his job.
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,201
Dark Space
I'll go with the original Dawn of War.

Relic Entertainment had laid the groundwork to rise to an RTS empire when Blizzard stumbled, but with the sequel they decided to pull out an absolutely radical upheaval of the RTS formula that alienated the majority of the dedicated fanbase while putting off potentially new customers, and then the third iteration of the series killed the franchise dead the day it launched.

Such a sad story arc given how solid the initial Dawn Of War and all of its expansions were. The red flags were there from the beginning though, as on the competitive multiplayer side of the first game, Relic was constantly making balance changes that completely went against what the community was suggesting, backed up with data. The phrase "Relic is the master of giving the community what they never asked for" was coined, and it came to fruition with how they destroyed the franchise by assuming what they wanted to do with the game design was more important than what consumers would buy.

RIP
 

Harp

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,206
Mass Effect

I missed the scope of it. ME2 felt so constrained in every way, narrowed down, minimized. Whether you enjoy it more or not is up to you but there is a clear distinction between both games in their feel and scope.
I could not agree more. I'm working my way through LE and just finished ME2 a month or so ago. My first time through the OG games since ME3 released.

A few years back I replayed the Uncharted trilogy and was surprised that 3 was my favorite, in a reversal for how I felt when I played them on release. I expected similarly to reverse my opinion that ME1 was better than ME2 specifically thanks to the scope and feel, especially now that I'm older and appreciate more streamlined game design. I didn't end up reversing that opinion- ME1 is the better game far and wide, specifically thanks to the scope and feel. I feel even more assured of this nowadays because upon playing ME2 back in 2010, it was hard to deny the combat was more fun and generally better, and even though that's still the case in LE, ME2's combat isn't exactly lighting the world on fire in 2022. As a result, both games' combat systems feel far more evenly comparable today than they did in 2010. Especially taking into consideration the LE edition improvements to each game.

I also never stopped missing grenades. I spent 50ish hours playing through ME2 and the DLC and never stopped hitting my grenade key instinctively, left over muscle memory from playing ME1. I had to unbind the key to keep myself from doing anything stupid in the midst of combat.

I enjoyed both games greatly, but I fucking loved ME1, just as much in late 2021 as I did in 2008. I also enjoyed ME2 as much in 2022 as I did in 2010, and I'm kind of disappointed that's the case, because I was definitely disappointed back then. I am nevertheless excited to replay ME3 for the first time since release, and dare I say, even ME Andromeda, a flawed ass game with fun ass combat.

I'll go with the original Dawn of War.

Relic Entertainment had laid the groundwork to rise to an RTS empire when Blizzard stumbled, but with the sequel they decided to pull out an absolutely radical upheaval of the RTS formula that alienated the majority of the dedicated fanbase while putting off potentially new customers, and then the third iteration of the series killed the franchise dead the day it launched.

Such a sad story arc given how solid the initial Dawn Of War and all of its expansions were. The red flags were there from the beginning though, as on the competitive multiplayer side of the first game, Relic was constantly making balance changes that completely went against what the community was suggesting, backed up with data. The phrase "Relic is the master of giving the community what they never asked for" was coined, and it came to fruition with how they destroyed the franchise by assuming what they wanted to do with the game design was more important than what consumers would buy.

RIP

I am a big fan of Dawn of War 2's campaign design, but it's so hard not to agree with this because I am a far bigger fan of Dark Crusade. Top tier RTS campaign for sure.
 
Battlefield 2/2142.

I mean I don't rate them super highly as games themselves but the experience & gameplay core was rightly packed in the middle between arcadey FPSes & Milsims and was beyond its day in terms of progression and ranking (like the top MP ranks required very hard to gain requirements than just score) and teamwork systems. But then they never explored that stuff again and as the late 00s/early 10s shooter trends basically made BF a more generic shooter where the MW2 craze basically changed everything where BF3 changed like halfway into development (I think Supression in BF3 was basically a leftover from early on development).

And now a lot of those "Ex-CoD>BC2/BF3" players have pretty much left the franchise especially that will solidify when MWII comes out this year. And I won't be suprise if F2P games like WW3 and then a Modern Hell Let Loose takes people who want a more "hardcore" experience away.
Mass Effect

I missed the scope of it. ME2 felt so constrained in every way, narrowed down, minimized. Whether you enjoy it more or not is up to you but there is a clear distinction between both games in their feel and scope.
Me too, honestly ME2 felt the sterypical late 00s/early 10s "gritty" in not a postive way, still enjoyed it but still disliked the de-emphasis on Sci-Fi.

Overall I think so many late 00s and ealry 10s games are incredibly over-rated because they basically a lot of them where "polished experience but lackluster and extremely shallow game foundations that Doritos Munching Bros enjoyed the most". I really dread if we start to see new waves of game developers who think late 00s and early 10s game design was the epitome of game design, *shudders*. Sounds gate-keeper douchebag I know but late 00s and early 10s where damn criticised so many times being super-cinematic and shallow so much.
 
Oct 31, 2017
12,069
Agreed. AJ wasn't perfect but it was still a great setup for a new trilogy and era in the AA series. So sad that they abandoned it so quickly. My greatest hope is that they do something drastic and dramatic for AA7 with regards to the cast. Series needs a new lead and fresh supporting cast with their own histories to uncover and personal journeys and obstacles to overcome.

Didn't they do that with Great Ace, though?
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,201
Dark Space
I am a big fan of Dawn of War 2's campaign design, but it's so hard not to agree with this because I am a far bigger fan of Dark Crusade. Top tier RTS campaign for sure.
Oh I loved DoW2's campaigns, make no mistake there. The story was great and they were actually far more in line with the lore, as a squad of elite Space Marines veterans with custom wargear and a little backup, yeah, they are all you'd need to save a planet. The plot twist in Chaos Rising was literally a mind blowing moment for me, I said "WOW" out loud like twenty times lmao, that was a peak 40K experience.

The gripe comes from me having been a comp player on the multiplayer side through the DoW1 series. Coming off of the frustrations of Relic's questionable balance decisions with that game and expansions, just imagine the community's reaction when DoW2 completely removed the base building and all of those associated mechanics... it was UGLY on the official forums and the comp forums. Like who the fuck asked them to completely change the very DNA of Dawn of War, with no consultation to the multiplayer/comp community.

It was like giving us the biggest middle finger. The Exodus was biblical, people were like welp Starcraft 2 it is. Sad day thatm was, when the most legendary DoW players just all packed up and left all at once.
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,421
The Evil Within ditching the awesome match mechanic for the second game was a huge bummer. For those who don't know, the first game is a survival horror that keeps it pretty tight on resources, and enemies are many and relentless. One of the most satisfying tactics was to use an enemy dead body or environmental item to set up a trap by igniting it with a match (also a limited resource) and killing many enemies at once. The sequel didn't have the mechanic at all and didn't really replace it with anything.
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,786
Dark Souls II had tons of issues but it also introduced New Game+ that revised enemy layouts, a feature that some of the best New Games do.....

....and it still hasn't come back.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,407
MGS Peace walker & ground zero --> the phantom pain.
They ignore the good design of a base and went with barren scenarios (expect for some 2 or 3 good places) the rest of the game is empty.

Also:
Dino crysis
Parasite Eve
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,470
New York
Didn't they do that with Great Ace, though?
Yes, which was a big reason GAA was so great, but that's not present day. AJ had the right of it with a game set in the same world/period. It allows for some shared characters and references but it was still a decidedly new chapter with new main characters. Part of the appeal to continuing the mainline series is maintaining those connections, seeing those big changes to characters you are familiar with but still getting a largely new cast and story.

GAA is wonderful and building its own world 100 years prior but it's not a replacement from the main timeline. Nor does it change the fact that Phoenix as a character has already seen and overcome so much. His personal journey was wrapped up long ago and he's reached absurd heights at this point where it's hard to bring him back down to regular conflicts and crimes. It would be to the point of parody and absurdity for him to be considered the underdog more on run of the mill murder cases and not dealing with stuff that literally threatens very nations.
 

Madao

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,680
Panama
Metroid Other M

under all the garbage cutscenes, limited controls and linear design, there was potential for a good 3rd person 3D Metroid.
shame that it's so toxic that just suggesting that something from that game should return sends a lot of people into uncontrollable rage.
 

Atom

Member
Jul 25, 2021
11,411
Valkyrie Profile. 2 and CoTP both seemed to try and be more standard rpgs in comparison and I think were worse off for it, though still good. Basically the only thing I'm hopeful about Valkyrie Elysium for is that it nails some of the atmosphere and story concepts of 1.
 

Deleted member 17210

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,569
Today I remind the world that EPIC MICKEY exist.

I know you forgot about it.
I remembered but mostly because I noticed yesterday I still have it in my collection. It definitely had potential. I found it too easy so the player choices never felt meaningful like in past Spector games. It lacked those moments of strategizing to advance.
 

etrain911

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,807
Fantasy Life on the 3DS was absolutely brilliant. The combat could've used a rework, some of the jobs you have feel dumb or redundant, and the story could've been better but otherwise it was a solid foundation. Fantasy Life 2 is a fucking free to play mobile game that's already dead in Japan. I hate everything.
 

Synohan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,959
Sonic Lost World
Sonic Riders
Apollo Justice

Final Fantasy XII and the Gambit System literally no one will use or use correctly.
 
Apr 2, 2021
2,080
Parasite Eve had some interesting but flawed battle system that I somewhat enjoyed back in the day. But instead of building on it and improving it, sequels went with poor man's RE gameplay and mediocre tps combat system.
Interesting but flawed? When I was a kid me and all my friends freaked out about Parasite Eve's battle system, and how it mixed real time with ATB. It ain't perfect sure, but I feel like you're remembering it wrong if you the first thing that comes to mind is that it was "flawed". it is really similar to the stuff FF7 Remake would do later.

In fact I think FF7R is probably what Parasite Eve games would have played like if they went in the right direction.