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Deleted member 52442

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www.indiewire.com

Neil Druckmann and Halley Gross Open Up About the Biggest Twists of ‘The Last of Us Part II’

After years of secrecy, Neil Druckmann and Halley Gross sit down for a spoiler-filled interview about video games' most ambitious story.

And after more than half a decade of omerta-like silence, Druckmann and Gross are finally able to talk about it. Fresh off an emotional toast with the rest of their colleagues at Naughty Dog, Druckmann and Gross hopped on a video call with IndieWire on the day of the game's release in order to talk through some of the most nuanced and audacious storytelling choices in video game history.


The story of "The Last Us Part II" is almost perfectly symmetrical. From the opening and closing shots of the guitar, to the accordion-like structure, the rhymes between life in Jackson and the stadium in Seattle, the museum and the aquarium, Ellie's love of space versus Abby's fear of heights, and so on. Can you talk about how you wanted the two halves of the game to reflect each other?

Neil Druckmann: With the first game, the exciting thing was role-reversal: You're playing as this archetypal hero for a while and then at a certain point we flip it and you play as Ellie. Seeing how well that worked was so much of the inspiration here, and when we decided to make a game about empathy we knew we had to double down on that feeling — to structure the entire thing around getting you to connect [with unexpected characters]. You're already connected to Ellie and Joel from "The Last of Us," so we put them through a very tragic event, give you one look at a quest for revenge, and then shift to Abby in order to tell a mirror story of redemption that follows the person who — by killing Joel and avenging her father — has already accomplished what Ellie is trying to do, and is struggling to come to grips with it. We were trying to find those parallels you're talking about, and to do so in a way where it's not on the nose but it's still showing you how these characters — under different circumstances — could've been friends.


fuuuck


Druckmann: There are so many emotional parts of the game that for a long time didn't land, and every time it's so daunting to make them work. So often it's just the iterative process of creation and cutting out a bunch of stuff that we realized wasn't necessary. What comes to mind right now is Joel's death. In the first edit of that scene, you felt nothing. Ellie's being held down and Joel's looking at her and we had this idea of like, "Oh man Joel's brain is so fucked up at that moment that the only word that's coming out of his mouth is his daughter's name, 'Sarah.'" It felt powerful, but then Troy [Baker] — to his credit — was like, "I don't think he should say anything." We shot both versions, and Troy was right. The scene was stronger without it.
 

Lord Fanny

Banned
Apr 25, 2020
25,953
Interesting that the character swap to Ellie at like the halfway point of the first game was a big inspiration for what they did here. Didn't really put two and two together, but yeah, that makes sense.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,610
Yeah, Troy Baker was right on telling Neil Joel should not say "Sarah" as he was dying since it would have kinda cheapened the bond between Ellie and Joel as Ellie would just be "Sarah's replacement"
 

Lord Fanny

Banned
Apr 25, 2020
25,953
Yeah, Troy Baker was right on telling Neil Joel should not say "Sarah" as he was dying since it would have kinda cheapened the bond between Ellie and Joel as Ellie would just be "Sarah's replacement"

I always felt that's all Ellie was to Joel, honestly. I'm was really surprised that people thought that she was more to him than that actually, definitely wasn't my impression. But I think the Sarah line was bad, too, just because it would have been kind of cheesy in context.
 

Crossing Eden

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Oct 26, 2017
53,380
Joel saying Sarah wouldn't have been ideal. Way more tragic that she's the last thing he sees while barely conscious.
 

ScubaSteve693

Banned
Mar 26, 2020
680
This whole article makes me appreciate the story so much more, drawing the parallels between the characters and what they go through, I don't think enough people are looking at it that way and are just jumping to "Fuck, I have to play as this person I am supposed to hate? Immediate pass" and bail on even attempting to enjoy the story.
 

Vashetti

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,553
Having just finished the game, it's really interesting to hear that for over 50% of the production, Ellie succeeded in killing Abby at the end. In that moment of playing it, I honestly wish Ellie had gone through it. Imagining her perspective, I can't imagine she'd ever be able to get that nagging thought out of her head that Abby is still out there.
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,207
Dark Space
Shame they softballed and didn't seek to address the trans issues (treatment of Lev).

edit: corrected below, interview done on day of release, don''t let this derail. My mistake,
 
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electricblue

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,991
Yeah, Troy Baker was right on telling Neil Joel should not say "Sarah" as he was dying since it would have kinda cheapened the bond between Ellie and Joel as Ellie would just be "Sarah's replacement"

yeah also would've made ellie's revenge quest a slightly stranger reaction . Ellie looks at the photo of Joel and Sarah in both games but never says anything about it which I find interesting, they never really went there
 

Tovarisc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,432
FIN
This whole article makes me appreciate the story so much more, drawing the parallels between the characters and what they go through, I don't think enough people are looking at it that way and are just jumping to "Fuck, I have to play as this person I am supposed to hate? Immediate pass" and bail on even attempting to enjoy the story.

I think a lot of it is pacing issue. Having that swap at 50% mark, give or take, without any warning is rough and at that point to player Abby is just that woman who killed Joel for no apparent reason (yes, you can put 1+1 before her 1st flashback). I can understand why for many, especially hardcore fans of 1st game, that is just too much to try and care anymore at that point.
 

Fat4all

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Oct 25, 2017
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i absolutely adore the two main 'boss fights' between Ellie and Abby in the game, Ellie is more the sneaky stealthy type while Abby is more of a brawler, so having them fight one another against their weaknesses was really neat

as Abby you have to be stealthy and avoid Ellies traps and can NOT go anywhere near her front

as Ellie you have to go full punch-mode and have a dirty dirty scrape, full on brawl

Imagining her perspective, I can't imagine she'd ever be able to get that nagging thought out of her head that Abby is still out there.
I think she finally let go of revenge by the end of the game

the last thing you see before the ending is essentially the start of the game, the day before Joel died with Ellie and him talking on the porch, with Ellie in a place where she was willing to start forgiving him for what he did at the hospital

Abby cut that so violently short that it fucked with Ellie in a major way, but in the end she still had to reconcile her feeling with Joel more than with Abby. Her remembering Joel the moment she was about to kill Abby, in that specific way, I think she realized that it wouldn't end even with Abby's death.
 

jett

Community Resettler
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Oct 25, 2017
44,659
What an excellent interview.

Glad that they decided against killing Abby. That would've been so fucking bleak.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,217
I legitimately felt in that moment that it was a conscious choice by Joel to say nothing.. so crazy how that was conveyed through an expression.
 

Fat4all

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Oct 25, 2017
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I thought for sure Lev was gonna kill Ellie in that last fight

i was getting a flashback to when Joel was being drowned and Ellie saved him in the first game (Ellie even brought it up during the trip to Seattle with Dina)

but that would've been bleak as fuck
 

CaptainKashup

Banned
May 10, 2018
8,313
User banned (1 month): Callous disregard for trans issues
Shame they softballed and didn't seek to address the trans issues (treatment of Lev).

edit: corrected below, interview done on day of release, don''t let this derail. My mistake,

Well, Lev gets to live. Trans or not, that's more then most people in TLOU's world. I don't understand the issue.
 

dragonbane

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,585
Germany
Thanks for confirming Gross that Ellie is not a psycho but merely PTSD stricken and does her first step towards peace at the end
 

Xiofire

Prophet of Regret
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Oct 27, 2017
4,137
Great interview, just the insight I needed after spending all of today thinking about this game.

I loved that they brought up the parallels between Ellie and Abbys characters. I noticed the aquarium and the museum, but I didn't clock Ellies love for space and Abbys fear of heights as linked. Good stuff.

I really hope we can get a Definitive Edition on PS5 that maybe has a bit of structure/pacing changes and maybe some of those scenes that were cut as optional extras.
 

ScubaSteve693

Banned
Mar 26, 2020
680
Great interview, just the insight I needed after spending all of today thinking about this game.

I loved that they brought up the parallels between Ellie and Abbys characters. I noticed the aquarium and the museum, but I didn't clock Ellies love for space and Abbys fear of heights as linked. Good stuff.

I really hope we can get a Definitive Edition on PS5 that maybe has a bit of structure/pacing changes and maybe some of those scenes that were cut as optional extras.
Could you imagine a Directors Cut of this game? I would fully embrace it and love it, as I loved the original version, but I feel SOOO many people would be angry. Maybe it'll change their perspective on the story, but if it was a paid release, that would anger so many people.
 

electricblue

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,991
if Abby and Ellie helped each other they might could undo Joel's sin but like Jesse said they can't get out of their own fucking way
 

Cerulean_skylark

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
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Oct 31, 2017
6,408
I don't get why so many think Ellie is a straight up psycho in doing the stuff she does in the end. I think the whole thing with Abby go could of been better written, but I got why Ellie let her go.

My husband put it well. In that split moment Ellie remembered she had a capacity for forgiving the unforgivable.
I never thought i'd end the game actively detesting Ellie, but here I am
 

Viale

▲ Legend ▲
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Oct 25, 2017
11,617
Shame they softballed and didn't seek to address the trans issues (treatment of Lev).

edit: corrected below, interview done on day of release, don''t let this derail. My mistake,

Sorry, I've seen this a couple times, but what exactly is the issue with Lev?
i absolutely adore the two main 'boss fights' between Ellie and Abby in the game, Ellie is more the sneaky stealthy type while Abby is more of a brawler, so having them fight one another against their weaknesses was really neat
Hah, it's interesting that they essentially beat each other at their specialties then now that I think about it.
 

CaptainKashup

Banned
May 10, 2018
8,313
I really, really hope that they'll find a way to make a Part III.
As much as I loved this game and its ending, it didn't gave me closure for the character. I want to see a proper end for Ellie.
 

ScubaSteve693

Banned
Mar 26, 2020
680
I really, really hope that they'll find a way to make a Part III.
As much as I loved this game and its ending, it didn't gave me closure for the character. I want to see a proper end for Ellie.
Agreed, them ending this game the way it does sets it up for a sequel. It isn't an ending that FORCES a sequel, but sets one up to where they could take it anywhere they wanted. I do believe they will make a third, and whether that be immediately after or with a game in between, I believe it will happen. The first game was about love, second game about hatred and revenge, third game about...finding their humanity and place in their world? Recapturing the love they left behind? Don't know what way to describe it but Ellie does deserve her happiness after all the traumatic things she has gone through, even if some of them self inflicted.
 

Sorel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,518
What an excellent interview.

Glad that they decided against killing Abby. That would've been so fucking bleak.
My heart would have been broken !

My husband put it well. In that split moment Ellie remembered she had a capacity for forgiving the unforgivable.
I never thought i'd end the game actively detesting Ellie, but here I am
If she had killed abby I would have been so mad, I was cursing at her lol !
 

Fat4all

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If she had killed abby I would have been so mad, I was cursing at her lol!
if ellie had killed abby, i feel like the third game would prob be lev hunting down ellie

with the 'cycle of revenge' theme being the main focus of this game, i'd prefer if they went a different direction with a hypothetical tlou3
 

Deleted member 4532

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This whole article makes me appreciate the story so much more, drawing the parallels between the characters and what they go through, I don't think enough people are looking at it that way and are just jumping to "Fuck, I have to play as this person I am supposed to hate? Immediate pass" and bail on even attempting to enjoy the story.
To be fair, that is a legitimate pacing issue. The first half ends with a massive cliffhanger but then quickly jumps to Abby who players, at the time, feel no genuine connection with. The game also slows to a snail's pace as well. But it's a rewarding experience if players stick with it with an open mind.
 

Deleted member 3017

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My husband put it well. In that split moment Ellie remembered she had a capacity for forgiving the unforgivable.
Yep. Ellie, after years of hating Joel, decided the day before his death she would try to forgive his unforgivable act. When she sees a flash of Joel as she's drowning Abby, she remembers this and decides she needs to let go and attempt to do the same with Abby.

Also, she saw Joel and herself in Abby and Lev and I don't think she could live with herself if she took Abby from him.
 

scrambledeggs

Member
Apr 25, 2018
486
Great article! Seeing Halley and Neil essentially confirm my thoughts about Ellie finally moving past her guilt in relation to Joel, forgiving him, as well as herself, somehow makes the overall narrative even more profound and hopeful. The fact that they see her hunting Abby down to Santa Monica not for justice but as a way for her to deal with her PTSD, along with her own remnants of survivor's guilt, that ultimately culminates to her finding it within herself to forgive and let go... I love it. The thought that Abby and Lev would've died had she not made her way down to California is a startling realization that just came to me. Ellie, on a journey to find and "fix" herself with the intent of ending Abby's life, ultimately ends up saving lives and ending the cycle of violence. 🥺

I'm glad Abby is spared. I've grown to like her so much that seeing her so fucked up after the ordeal with the Rattlers and forcing her to fight us actually hurt. Both Abby and Ellie have shades of good in them, and it's cathartic to see them realize this amid the violence and chaos.

That the game ends in such a surprisingly hopeful note, of Ellie finally moving on and finding something to live for (Dina and her baby) has me feeling all sorts of things. Just thinking about it gets me emotional lol. Like I wish we had a more concrete ending, but leaving it kind of open ended with a sliver of hopeful interpretation somehow ends up holding more emotional weight.

Agreed, them ending this game the way it does sets it up for a sequel. It isn't an ending that FORCES a sequel, but sets one up to where they could take it anywhere they wanted. I do believe they will make a third, and whether that be immediately after or with a game in between, I believe it will happen. The first game was about love, second game about hatred and revenge, third game about...finding their humanity and place in their world? Recapturing the love they left behind? Don't know what way to describe it but Ellie does deserve her happiness after all the traumatic things she has gone through, even if some of them self inflicted.
I'm definitely on board with those Part 3 ideas.

I wonder how they would go about approaching those themes?
 

s0l0kill

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
856
I don't get why so many think Ellie is a straight up psycho in doing the stuff she does in the end. I think the whole thing with Abby go could of been better written, but I got why Ellie let her go.
I think a lot of people just can't see past the "she kills hundreds of other people but won't kill her target", which is a valid thing to say, it's also valid to say she doesn't kill those NPCs and it's actually the player.
More then anything, I think people didn't get the things they wanted to happen and they complain about not having an agency on what is a linear-story game, it's a weird complaint to me as this isn't the Witcher 3, but people will complain.

The interview itself I felt was very forgiving, they didn't really tackle the hard questions that people are voicing against the game, while I loved the game and think it's a masterpiece better on every level from the first game, we have to recognize a large portion of the fan base can't agree with their decision to kill Joel so early, play as his killer and then have Ellie spare her, and if people feel that way, maybe it's the game's fault of not driving its themes in a better way.
 

Jest

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Oct 28, 2017
4,565
I think a lot of it is pacing issue. Having that swap at 50% mark, give or take, without any warning is rough and at that point to player Abby is just that woman who killed Joel for no apparent reason (yes, you can put 1+1 before her 1st flashback). I can understand why for many, especially hardcore fans of 1st game, that is just too much to try and care anymore at that point.
To be fair, that is a legitimate pacing issue. The first half ends with a massive cliffhanger but then quickly jumps to Abby who players, at the time, feel no genuine connection with. The game also slows to a snail's pace as well. But it's a rewarding experience if players stick with it with an open mind.

I think calling it a pacing issue is doing a disservice to the intent. I think it's done that way intentionally with a specific purpose in mind. It's meant to be a shock for the express purpose of, hopefully, making the player realize by the end that their extreme negative feelings towards this character was the result of a lack of perspective. It can create a very uncomfortable self awareness as people generally do not like being wrong. They do not like seeing themselves in those they have previously come to hate.

If ND has the perspective switch in a different manner, it certainly doesn't shock player sensibility as harshly and probably eases them into the story a bit more but it loses the potential effect of the player recognizing that given specific circumstances and experiences, they could easily be capable of things they otherwise would never imagine being capable of. Like hatred and violence.
 

Fat4all

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Oct 25, 2017
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More then anything, I think people didn't get the things they wanted to happen and they complain about not having an agency on what is a linear-story game, it's a weird complaint to me as this isn't the Witcher 3, but people will complain.
p much the same thing happened with the ending to the first game

joel made a choice players didnt agree with
 

SunBroDave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,159
Great interview, just the insight I needed after spending all of today thinking about this game.

I loved that they brought up the parallels between Ellie and Abbys characters. I noticed the aquarium and the museum, but I didn't clock Ellies love for space and Abbys fear of heights as linked. Good stuff.

I really hope we can get a Definitive Edition on PS5 that maybe has a bit of structure/pacing changes and maybe some of those scenes that were cut as optional extras.
Yeah there are tons of parallels between the two characters, even down to being in a love triangle where one of the people is pregnant.
 

Bundy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,931
Having just finished the game, it's really interesting to hear that for over 50% of the production, Ellie succeeded in killing Abby at the end. In that moment of playing it, I honestly wish Ellie had gone through it. Imagining her perspective, I can't imagine she'd ever be able to get that nagging thought out of her head that Abby is still out there.
Same. Killing Abby would have been my perfect ending.
 

Sorel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,518
if ellie had killed abby, i feel like the third game would prob be lev hunting down ellie

with the 'cycle of revenge' theme being the main focus of this game, i'd prefer if they went a different direction with a hypothetical tlou3
Yeah I was also thinking that.

I'm really hoping for a Abby DLC, We don't have closure for her. Like I... I don't know but after seeing her state I wanted to see her being happy, maybe having find the fireflies and they're not bad. Lev can be free and all. I'll miss her.

Edit: Sorry, copy pasted one post too much.
 

Lukar

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Oct 27, 2017
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Druckmann: There are so many emotional parts of the game that for a long time didn't land, and every time it's so daunting to make them work. So often it's just the iterative process of creation and cutting out a bunch of stuff that we realized wasn't necessary. What comes to mind right now is Joel's death. In the first edit of that scene, you felt nothing. Ellie's being held down and Joel's looking at her and we had this idea of like, "Oh man Joel's brain is so fucked up at that moment that the only word that's coming out of his mouth is his daughter's name, 'Sarah.'" It felt powerful, but then Troy [Baker] — to his credit — was like, "I don't think he should say anything." We shot both versions, and Troy was right. The scene was stronger without it.
They almost Glenn'd Joel, lol.
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
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Oct 25, 2017
15,855
What ?

At no point does Abby reflect about killing Joel whatsoever.

Their point falls completely flat.

It's not like Ellie looked at Abby and was like "i don't want to go down that path" at all.

Sparing her makes little sense in that context.


Troy Baker tried his best to salvage garbage like Mark Hamill and his kiss to Leia and wink to c3po did.

T.T

My husband put it well. In that split moment Ellie remembered she had a capacity for forgiving the unforgivable.
I never thought i'd end the game actively detesting Ellie, but here I am

She had that capacity, for the person that she knew loved her more than anything, that she loved back.

It's a huge fucking stretch to apply it to the person you hate the most.

And the game did a poor job at showing why we should believe that, all of sudden.

Way too abrupt, felt like another artificially forced plot point that they wanted.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
12,610
What ?

At no point does Abby reflect about killing Joel whatsoever.

Their point falls completely flat.

It's not like Ellie looked at Abby and was like "i don't want to go down that path" at all.

Sparing her makes little sense in that context.


Troy Baker tried his best to salvage garbage like Mark Hamill and his kiss to Leia and wink to c3po did.

T.T

Are ya'll actually trying to turn Troy into a Mark Hamill figure of "going against the director who doesn't know anything"

He constantly defends the game, and says that whenever he an Neil argued about something it was a mutual understanding that they both cared deeply about Joel as a character and never insinuates "Neil doesn't know what he is doing'

And yes, Abby does reflect on killing Joel. They talk about it constantly, saying "Joel deserved it" but other characters having issues with the brutality used to kill him.