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Oct 25, 2017
523
It definitely existed. NeonZ actually listed a couple of points why they were reviled initially.

1. The constant resetting of attacks. As you go to a person wack them then go to the initial place and wack them again. Compare that to the flow of the swordmaster in Thracia and Genealogy and it's an acquired taste.

2. The general cartooony nature of the sprites, generals for example. Compared to the muted tones of the snes sprites. People were not happy with Kiddy Emblem (which was compounded by the fact that the FE six roster was mainly kids).

3. People hated the ranged pillars that popped up out of nowhere. Game that is really good about this is really Echoes.
Hmm, I always found the SNES animations to be sort of dull in comparison and always preferred the cartooniness of the GBA games, but I also never had to adjust my expectations because i was like 9 when FE7 came out.
With a bit of luck Rolf outmatches Shinon. It just takes a lot of effort.
It's a matter of opportunity cost here. The resources necessary to make Rolf okay are immense, at which point you get a mediocre unit because of bowlock, when any/all of those resources could go into Marcia, Jill, or really anyone else lol
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,460
Echoes is such a weird game. It does so many things well. Engine's really top notch, UI is great, music is great.

However, i'm still worried about some of the story bits and the failure to update the gameplay was just why (i'm assuming its because Maeda was busy with heroes and switch fe and he's the big map honcho).

Considering the quality of the presentation elsewhere in the game, I think copying the map design was an early and fundamental decision, because they didn't want to alienate fans of the original game, and (more importantly) Echoes was conceived as a stop-gap time filler between Fates' conclusion and the Switch's development being available, so they didn't have time to create its maps from scratch with modern complexity.

IS is super reactionary, so if they see Echoes' map design was unpopular, it'll probably inform their decisions with future remakes. Not too worried about it tbh.

I'm weird and still enjoy them and Echoes' gameplay in a shallower Final Fantasy Tactics-type way.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
Keeping the map design is the one element that all FE remakes have in common though. Everything else has changed from remake to remake, sometimes staying closer or further from the originals in story or gameplay, but the maps have always followed the originals.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,460
I wouldn't mind either way. Quality of life changes are where they've been focused for remakes, but it could be interesting if that principle conflicts with the sprawling maps of FE4, for instance. Curious to see where they'll go.

Map design is really hit-or-miss lately. Most of Awakening's were scarcely any better than Echoes', in all honesty, and Fates' map quality is overstated IMO. It has some genius designs, but even in Conquest there are various gimmicky maps and overdesigned portions that both reduced my enjoyment.
 

Thuddert

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,298
Netherlands
It's a matter of opportunity cost here. The resources necessary to make Rolf okay are immense, at which point you get a mediocre unit because of bowlock, when any/all of those resources could go into Marcia, Jill, or really anyone else lol

Yet it's really satisfying to pull off.

Being able to use the characters I like is a big selling point of the series.
 

Deleted member 2585

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,133
If someone is playing for the first time or just casually, they should just use whomever they want. There's plenty of experience to go around and a handful of good prepremotes that can carry you even if you mess up horribly (in most games, anyways). Archers suck in the vast majority of FE games, but if someone is having fun using them on a casual playthrough, why stop them? People have fun raising trainee units despite their massive cost (and often underwhelming final stats). The great thing about FE games is that they can accommodate many different playstyles, even suboptimal ones.

Nowadays I have a lot of fun trying to play efficiently. But I also used to have a great time only promoting at level 20 and maxing units and all that jazz. Most of the advice like, "never use archers" or "never use armor knights" or "don't bother levelling anyone up but Seth" are usually true for efficiency runs (especially on higher difficulties), but hardly applicable for a first-time player who just wants to see the story. And to be honest, if I was a new player and people told me to not use certain characters I liked, I think I'd enjoy the game a lot less.
 

Drax

Oregon tag
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,078
Ayup, I'd use the characters you like. LTC and that sort of stuff is if you are neck deep in the series.
 

Abstrusity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
If someone is playing for the first time or just casually, they should just use whomever they want. There's plenty of experience to go around and a handful of good prepremotes that can carry you even if you mess up horribly (in most games, anyways). Archers suck in the vast majority of FE games, but if someone is having fun using them on a casual playthrough, why stop them? People have fun raising trainee units despite their massive cost (and often underwhelming final stats). The great thing about FE games is that they can accommodate many different playstyles, even suboptimal ones.

Nowadays I have a lot of fun trying to play efficiently. But I also used to have a great time only promoting at level 20 and maxing units and all that jazz. Most of the advice like, "never use archers" or "never use armor knights" or "don't bother levelling anyone up but Seth" are usually true for efficiency runs (especially on higher difficulties), but hardly applicable for a first-time player who just wants to see the story. And to be honest, if I was a new player and people told me to not use certain characters I liked, I think I'd enjoy the game a lot less.
Exactly what I was trying to get across. Like, the high efficiency ranking runs suck. They really do. Sure, it's fun, but you don't get to take characters you like all the way along and strategize on your own time to do whatever you want to do however you want to do it, you get to change maybe a few turns across an entire run because you prefer a valuable or an extra weapon and can lose turns elsewhere. A ranking run is resource management at its core, efficiency never melds with what you like, and in a game series increasingly about its characters more than its gameplay, it's not a great idea to bring those considerations in, in someone's first game...That's the way I feel about it, anyway.

Even further, after FE7, you have "unlimited levels and stat ups" in FE8, bonus EXP bonanza in FE9 and 10, Awakening and Fates don't have EXP caps and stat-ups are easy to come by, further creating an open-ended experience, so even the efficiency runs are pushed deeper into mechanics where, again, the average new player won't tread.

I personally love efficiency and ranking runs, I love playing on the hardest difficulty and doing it as fast and loose as I can, but at the same time, characters are what endear people to the games, and cutting a bunch of them out because they take too long or too much effort for menial payoff...I can't agree with that.

And all of that is before support conversations, where much of the world building and characterizations come into play.
 
Oct 25, 2017
523
If someone is playing for the first time or just casually, they should just use whomever they want. There's plenty of experience to go around and a handful of good prepremotes that can carry you even if you mess up horribly (in most games, anyways). Archers suck in the vast majority of FE games, but if someone is having fun using them on a casual playthrough, why stop them? People have fun raising trainee units despite their massive cost (and often underwhelming final stats). The great thing about FE games is that they can accommodate many different playstyles, even suboptimal ones.

Nowadays I have a lot of fun trying to play efficiently. But I also used to have a great time only promoting at level 20 and maxing units and all that jazz. Most of the advice like, "never use archers" or "never use armor knights" or "don't bother levelling anyone up but Seth" are usually true for efficiency runs (especially on higher difficulties), but hardly applicable for a first-time player who just wants to see the story. And to be honest, if I was a new player and people told me to not use certain characters I liked, I think I'd enjoy the game a lot less.
I agree with this but I don't think it's a good idea to give bad advice regardless *shrugs*
 

theprodigy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
685
"hey any tips for this game"

"x, y are really good, avoid z"

"REEE just use who you want"

well ok sure, that doesn't magically invalidate the advice or make it wrong

ESPECIALLY since the original poster already didn't like using Rebecca in the first place!
 
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Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,529
I thought ranking runs required you to get x experience for each chapter and like 120,000 in funds at the end, so using prepromotes and costly weapons often is actually bad for your rank. It's not all about turn efficiency.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,014
UK
Ok I'm up to chapter 16x now (fighting the pirates to get to the island in FE7)

I kind of understand now that the game does allow for your characters to die as I have way more characters than I can use now, so half those will become useless pretty fast as they won't ever see battle unless half my team gets wiped, and that won't happen as I'm reloading the save when anyone dies, and even if it did happen they would die very quickly as they won't have seen combat in 5-10 levels so will be massively underleveled

I'm struggling to level up Eliwood and Lyn, both end up in pretty bad shape if they engage more than one enemy, whereas Hector is slowly becoming a one man army who can solo level bosses

I found another Knights Crest so leveled Sain up into a paladin (he was level 14) but I have no idea what other items allow other characters to level up, or if I should level them up the soon as possible

I'm finding it hard to justify leaving any of my horse riding units behind because they're so effective and have such good range, and they can use most weapons anyway (I think Sain can even use axes now he's moved up a class)
 

Arcus Felis

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,123
In Fire Emblem 7, you will want to promote your units only when they have reached level 20 in their base class, in order to maximize stat gains (not to mention the experience gains are lowered significantly once they promote). The only exceptions to that rule are Clerics and Troubadours, as these units level up very slowly through using staves. More often than not you will want to promote them once they reach level 10+, depending on how patient you are, in order for them to gain access to offensive magic, better mobility and more bulk.

These advices are true for each GBA Fire Emblem games only, as things can change quite a lot in other titles, such as the 3DS ones.

Priscilla, in particular, can become quite the effective mounted mage, and in general having a healer with high mobility is a blessing.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,014
UK
In Fire Emblem 7, you will want to promote your units only when they have reached level 20 in their base class, in order to maximize stat gains (not to mention the experience gains are lowered significantly once they promote). The only exceptions to that rule are Clerics and Troubadours, as these units level up very slowly through using staves. More often than not you will want to promote them once they reach level 10+, depending on how patient you are, in order for them to gain access to offensive magic, better mobility and more bulk.

Ah crap, oh well, I'm sure Sain will be fine, I'll just follow your advice for my other units
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,237
Promoting before level 20 is not a bad thing in most games, including the GBA games. The small loss in levels is not a big deal compared to the immediate gains with promotion, and most of your units will not be able to reach 20/20.

This is not to tell you how to play, it can be a fun challenge to try and get the most out of a certain character, however you don't need to worry about trying to get every level up. You're not going to screw yourself over by promoting early, and likely you'll even make things easier.
 

Arcus Felis

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,123
On the other hand, promoting early will make the new units eat much more exp (assuming they get exp at all when killing units), exp that could have been used to make them stronger by leveling them up in their base class. Not to mention that overusing promoted units will make the lower leveled units in base class lag behind, and if these units don't get stronger there is the risk of them not being able to catch up at all. Now, you don't need to level up every single unit of the game (in fact, it is highly not recommended to do so - your full roster will likely reach 20 to 30 units, you only need to focus on 12 to 15 units or so, depending on the game and the map deployment limit, and in any case there aren't enough Promotion items for everyone, barring the secret shop of course).

It is a delicate balance to find. If you want to min/max and be sure to have strong units for the endgame, you will want to benefit from every single possible level you can get. Granted, GBA FE games aren't very hard, but if you spread your exp too thin and waste it, you are bound to face some issues later on.
 

theprodigy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
685
promoting early gives you several levels worth of stat boosts, extra weapon ranks, and more move, which means you're killing things more effectively, which means you get more exp

GBA games are absolutely NOT 20/20 games especially because FE7/8 enemies suck

I think it's interesting how the new player is stumbling into the correct decisions/evaluations (archers suck, horses are good, Lyn/Eliwood suck, promote before 20) and then being told bad advice.
 
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Weebos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,060
Promoting early in the GBA games is fine, especially in FE6 and FE7 where you can't grind. You might get a handful of units to 20/20, its not really worth it to wait that long for everybody.

When I play them I usually promote most units in the mid-teens. I try to wait until they start falling off or if I'm struggling on a map.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,460
You're fine to promote people in the mid-teens. As has been said, very few of your units will potentially hit 20/20 by the end of the game anyway.
 

Arcus Felis

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,123
Promoting early in the GBA games is fine, especially in FE6 and FE7 where you can't grind. You might get a handful of units to 20/20, its not really worth it to wait that long for everybody.

When I play them I usually promote most units in the mid-teens. I try to wait until they start falling off or if I'm struggling on a map.
Technically, you can grind at the arena. Granted, one must be extra-careful, and immediately power off the GBA if the arena keeper tells you about an enemy you really don't want to face, because once the fight begins it could be the death of your unit if it can't survive the first round (basically, if you see someone with a silver weapon, power off; also, sending low Luck units can end up in... bad surprises).

As far as I am concerned, I managed FE7 and FE8 just fine by leveling up my units 20/20 before promoting them, with the exception of Clerics and Troubadours. Not promoting early allows them to get better level ups, and to be extremely powerful once they promote, allowing them to max their stats and/or to smooth the stats in which they usually have poor growth. To each their own.
Edit: Do note that for the hardest difficulty mode (ie. Hector Hard Mode), waiting for 20/20 is not feasible (if not outright suicidal). Difficulty mode will impact severely how you play a Fire Emblem game.
 
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Mullet2000

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,896
Toronto
I finally dumped a bunch of time into Echoes this weekend, just started act 4. I'm shocked at how much I'm enjoying the writing.

Like, sure the overall plot is pretty standard, but the moment to moment writing is very engaging, and every character's personality it shining through really well. After Awakening and Fates, the central theme of class struggle is very welcome too.

The maps are mostly pretty bad, no way around it, but I'm overall actually liking the single-item equip system, world map, lack of team ups, etc. The game flows really well, and I love how skills work here vs. the other games. Everything feels on point except for the maps... If only the maps were actually good.
 

Crayolan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,756
promoting early gives you several levels worth of stat boosts, extra weapon ranks, and more move, which means you're killing things more effectively, which means you get more exp

GBA games are absolutely NOT 20/20 games especially because FE7/8 enemies suck

I think it's interesting how the new player is stumbling into the correct decisions/evaluations (archers suck, horses are good, Lyn/Eliwood suck, promote before 20) and then being told bad advice.

Am I just super lucky or something, cause on my 3 playthroughs of FE7 my Lyn has always turned out great. Even on Hector Hard Mode, Lyn was consistently one of my best units.
 

Arcus Felis

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,123
And Hector Hard Mode is where the true challenge awaits.
Although you may lose a few hairs doing it.
Proceed with caution with that one.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,014
UK
Complete the game and you'll unlock Hector's mode, which is like Eliwood's campaign but with a few changes.
Complete that and you'll unlock a hard mode for Hector's campaign.

Ah I see

Well I'll see how much I enjoy FE7 first, and I'm enjoying it a lot at the moment

I'll probably move onto FE8 afterwards (or after a breather)
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,014
UK
Am I just super lucky or something, cause on my 3 playthroughs of FE7 my Lyn has always turned out great. Even on Hector Hard Mode, Lyn was consistently one of my best units.

My Lyn (and Eliwood) and not bad, but they can't one hit anyone at the moment, so this is generally what happens:

They attack a unit and reduce it to 50%, the enemy counters and they knock me down to 75%

Enemy turn, they attack me, I'm down to low life, I counter back, they're down to low life, they move an archer in, they chip damage me to critical life

My turn, I'm forced to have them flee while someone on a horse strides in and smashes the enemy for all the exp, only for the archers arrow to barely scratch the horse rider

Next turn the horse rider kills the archer, I keep Lyn & Eliwood away from danger until the adults win the fight

So they're weak because they don't fight and gain exp, and they don't gain exp because if they did they'd die and the mission would be over

I think Hector is better because he seems to be able to take a hit, and if something is weak to axes he can more often than not one shot them
 

Arcus Felis

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,123
Lyn is a decent unit. She does lack the Crit Bonus all Swordmasters get, but she gets access to Bows upon promotion, allowing her to attack at range if she needs to. Also, her exclusive chapters allow the player to train her a little. Her first level up is fixed, as she gets +1 in everything (except Resistance I think), and you can grab a Power ring and an Angelic robe in her chapters. Considering her rather low HP and capricious Strenght, she is a prime candidate for both (her, or Florina). Overall, Lyn will turn out more than OK in most playthroughs, and her Mani Katti exclusive weapon (with a very high durability) does wonders against armored units and cavalry.

Eliwood is... a different story. There is no middle ground with him: either the RNG is on your side and he'll turn into a very solid unit, either you are RNG screwed and you will wish you didn't have to use him.

Hector is considered one of the best Lord in the series. So feel free to use him: he's godly.

On a side note oni-link, regarding a very specific map, titled "Battle before Dawn" (no story spoilers, just a word of advice):

Do not pull any punches. That map is known for being infuriating for many reasons. You may have to restart the map because of plain bad luck in the worst case scenario (unlikely to happen, but still a very true possibility). Once you reach that map, send your best units and pray the RNG doesn't screw you.
I repeat: that map can be both downright unfair, and can be quite hard for newcomers. You shouldn't have to worry too much in Eliwood Normal Mode, but keep in mind that that map shouldn't be taken lightly.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
523
Lyn is my favorite trash unit that I will invest too many resources into to make her functional, but even if she gets the right procs and/or stat boosters to her combat to decent quality she's a foot unit without 1-2 range or the Swordmaster crit bonus. I still love her tho
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,529
I said it and I'll say it again: Lyn is worse than Roy. Probably the worst lord to grace the series.
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
Map design is really hit-or-miss lately. Most of Awakening's were scarcely any better than Echoes', in all honesty, and Fates' map quality is overstated IMO. It has some genius designs, but even in Conquest there are various gimmicky maps and overdesigned portions that both reduced my enjoyment.

Awakening's first 3rd had or so had competent map design, so I can't say I agree. Even at its worst, Awakening didn't have desert maps that forced the majority of your army to crawl to the enemy forces, it didn't have swamps, it didn't have large open fields that necessitated waiting for cavalry units to come to you, it didn't have enemies that summoned other enemies to artificially increase the time it took to complete it. No, Gaiden is absolutely still in a league of its own when it comes to bad map design, and prior to Echoes's release this opinion wasn't contested.

Also Fates's map quality isn't great when you factor Birthright and especially Revelation, but Conquest is absolutely top class. There are very few "gimmicky in a bad way" maps (Chapter 19, 21, 15) but the rest of the maps top. They actually forced you to change how you approach map, and this was especially prominent in Lunatic.
 
Oct 25, 2017
523
lol there is no way Lyn is worse than Roy, Roy is useful in like one chapter (4) and then is a constant liability for the rest of the game. Lyn can at least like kill armors or something if you need her too.
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
Normal Mode Roy is probably better than Normal Mode Lyn, but they're both really bad

HM Roy is unusable past a certain point whereas Lyn can do some things (not particularly well, mind you)
 

Caz

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,055
Canada
I said it and I'll say it again: Lyn is worse than Roy. Probably the worst lord to grace the series.
No. Just no. Roy's growths are alright but he doesn't get a chance to promote until the final few chapters of the game and becomes dead weight very quickly. Not only can Lyn promote far earlier but she has greater utility in the game, namely the chapter where she can first promote (the map has several wyvern knights and she can take out a few with her bow, then have Hector or another unit "trade" her a sword so she's not defenseless when the enemy moves). She might not be as great as Hector but her high speed and skill make up for her shaky strength growth and low con, plus her two exclusive weapons have high critical hit rates; i've yet to have a run where she ends up worse than Eliwood or other sword-wielding units.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,460
Awakening's first 3rd had or so had competent map design, so I can't say I agree. Even at its worst, Awakening didn't have desert maps that forced the majority of your army to crawl to the enemy forces, it didn't have swamps, it didn't have large open fields that necessitated waiting for cavalry units to come to you, it didn't have enemies that summoned other enemies to artificially increase the time it took to complete it. No, Gaiden is absolutely still in a league of its own when it comes to bad map design, and prior to Echoes's release this opinion wasn't contested.

Also Fates's map quality isn't great when you factor Birthright and especially Revelation, but Conquest is absolutely top class. There are very few "gimmicky in a bad way" maps (Chapter 19, 21, 15) but the rest of the maps top. They actually forced you to change how you approach map, and this was especially prominent in Lunatic.

Just replayed Awakening's first half, and its maps are utterly boring and devoid of interesting elements, to me. I can't think of a single noteworthy one, even just among fellow rout maps.

At Awakening's worst, it has same turn reinforcements, which are substantially more frustrating to me than Echoes' cantors. I don't like cantors' summoning mechanic, but I'd say it doesn't artificially increase map duration so much as add it to begin with, since they're frequently the only units on-map prior to summoning. Awakening's simplified map design was derided on release as well, if you'll recall.

As for Fates, Conquest is what I was talking about. It's equal parts superb design and either gimmicks or overwrought design, but those qualifiers are obviously subjective. Didn't say it was it wasn't good overall, just overstated from my perspective.
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
No. Just no. Roy's growths are alright but he doesn't get a chance to promote until the final few chapters of the game and becomes dead weight very quickly. Not only can Lyn promote far earlier but she has greater utility in the game, namely the chapter where she can first promote (the map has several wyvern knights and she can take out a few with her bow, then have Hector or another unit "trade" her a sword so she's not defenseless when the enemy moves). She might not be as great as Hector but her high speed and skill make up for her shaky strength growth and low con, plus her two exclusive weapons have high critical hit rates; i've yet to have a run where she ends up worse than Eliwood or other sword-wielding units.

Both of them have abysmal bases with growths that don't make up for it, but Lyn's bulk is even worse than Roy. 18/2 with a 20% Growth is fucking awful, which ensures she's fragile forever.

She's not even that good at Wyvern killing considering effective damage got nerfed and she starts at D rank bows (plus if you're reliant on her for Wyvern killing then you fucked up)

But yes, she still ends up being being better than Roy on Hard Mode because you can make her usable on all difficulties whereas Roy is pretty worthless on FE6's HM. On Normal Mode, Roy can be made "viable" quicker than Lyn, and his endgame utility >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lyn's for obvious reasons.
 

theprodigy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
685
Just replayed Awakening's first half, and its maps are utterly boring and devoid of interesting elements, to me. I can't think of a single noteworthy one, even just among fellow rout maps.

At Awakening's worst, it has same turn reinforcements, which are substantially more frustrating to me than Echoes' cantors. I don't like cantors' summoning mechanic, but I'd say it doesn't artificially increase map duration so much as add it to begin with, since they're frequently the only units on-map prior to summoning. Awakening's simplified map design was derided on release as well, if you'll recall.

As for Fates, Conquest is what I was talking about. It's equal parts superb design and either gimmicks or overwrought design, but those qualifiers are obviously subjective. Didn't say it was it wasn't good overall, just overstated from my perspective.
chapter 5, chapter 10, both are way better than Echoes maps

even the 2nd half has chapter 17/18/21 that are actually good
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,237
At Awakening's worst, it has same turn reinforcements, which are substantially more frustrating to me than Echoes' cantors. I don't like cantors' summoning mechanic, but I'd say it doesn't artificially increase map duration so much as add it to begin with, since they're frequently the only units on-map prior to summoning. Awakening's simplified map design was derided on release as well, if you'll recall.
No way, I'll take same turn reinforcements over cantors any day.
Same turn reinforcements you just approach as you would with Fog of War, sometimes with the bonus of being able to stop them with good placement.
Cantors are non stop tedium until you reach the summoner and just drag out already dull maps.
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
Just replayed Awakening's first half, and its maps are utterly boring and devoid of interesting elements, to me. I can't think of a single noteworthy one, even just among fellow rout maps.

Relative to the entire series, maybe, but if we're talking about just Echoes then Awakening is blatantly better.

The prologue, Chapter 2, Chapter 3, Chapter 4 (Come on), Chapter 6, Chapter 7, Chapter 8, Chapter 9, Chapter 10 and Chapter 11 were equal parts better designed and more memorable than what Echoes had. Whether its through simple teaching you simple mechanics, a map layout that isn't a huge open field or the gameplay synergizing with the story (Chapter fucking 10), playing through Awakening was a less painful experience. .

At Awakening's worst, it has same turn reinforcements, which are substantially more frustrating to me than Echoes' cantors. I don't like cantors' summoning mechanic, but I'd say it doesn't artificially increase map duration so much as add it to begin with, since they're frequently the only units on-map prior to summoning. Awakening's simplified map design was derided on release as well, if you'll recall.

Same turn reinforcements are obnoxious, but they don't slow down the game's pace. Especially considering that Awakening is super enemy phase oriented, and you can just stick strong units and have them mow right through them. Cantor's don't just show up in their own standalone maps (which aren't too bad at first), but regular maps as well, and they absolutely bog down the experience since have to punch your way through them.

350


Fuck this guy

As for Fates, Conquest is what I was talking about. It's equal parts superb design and either gimmicks or overwrought design, but those qualifiers are obviously subjective. Didn't say it was it wasn't good overall, just overstated from my perspective.

Totally fair.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,014
UK
How have you all played FE6? I thought FE7 was the first released in English
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,460
Same turn reinforcements are obnoxious, but they don't slow down the game's pace. Especially considering that Awakening is super enemy phase oriented, and you can just stick strong units and have them mow right through them. Cantor's don't just show up in their own standalone maps (which aren't too bad at first), but regular maps as well, and they absolutely bog down the experience since have to punch your way through them.

Typing from my phone, so I can't go into specific maps at the moment! Haha. I disagree that same turn reinforcements don't slow down gameplay as much as cantors do, though.

Until you memorize their permutations, same turn reinforcements have the capacity to force multiple resets, whereas cantors merely take a little time to deal with--they aren't ever dangerous, especially never if we factor the Turnwheel into gameplay.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,460
How have you all played FE6? I thought FE7 was the first released in English

It was. FE6 is easily played legally through a translation patched cartridge, and is a pretty great game (or what Bonen said). Wouldn't recommend tackling it til you're comfortable with the series, though, as it is harder than its localized GBA successors.
 

theprodigy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
685
Awakening's reinforcements are incredibly tame outside of the infamous Mila Tree gank squad, everything else is a player skill issue especially since the game explicitly tells you a turn or two beforehand
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,460
Awakening's reinforcements are incredibly tame outside of the infamous Mila Tree gank squad, everything else is a player skill issue especially since the game explicitly tells you a turn or two beforehand

There are multiple occasions where it either isn't telegraphed with dialogue, or the telegraphing is inconsistent with different turn delays or staggered appearances from different points.

You absolutely can't always predict where they're coming from without prior knowledge.

Same turn reinforcements are indefensible, particularly when done inconsistently. It's just trying to cheese the player's competence rather than design a map well.
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
How have you all played FE6? I thought FE7 was the first released in English

FE6 was fan translated way back in the day, so we all played that.

Typing from my phone, so I can't go into specific maps at the moment! Haha. I disagree that same turn reinforcements don't slow down gameplay as much as cantors do, though.

Until you memorize their permutations, same turn reinforcements have the capacity to force multiple resets, whereas cantors merely take a little time to deal with--they aren't ever dangerous, especially never if we factor the Turnwheel into gameplay.

To be entirely honest, I can only think of 1-2 occasions where STR was egregious enough to force a reset (Chapter 16 comes to mind), and even screwing up once was enough to prevent them from screwing me over again. STR doesn't actually slow down the pace; a reset is a reset, and it's ultimately preventable, especially if your team arrangement is strong. Cantor's on the other hand, scale badly with replays. Your skill doesn't influence how fast you clear Cantor maps, which is a huge problem. No amount of mashing will mitigate how tedious it is the clear maps where they're a presence.