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stoff

Member
Oct 27, 2017
201
Sidenote: I fucking hate Hector mode. Hiding content behind a hard mode that can ONLY be accessed if you want to play the same game twice. Lose your cartridge/data? welcome back to playing Eliwood again yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.
Well, Fire Emblem games are meant to be replayed. You get 70+ Characters to use, Mutually Exclusive Choices, Different Routes, Missable Secrets...
I don't really consider this hiding content. HHM sucks because it hides, what is essentially a difficulty setting (content-wise it really isn't that different).
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,243
IS was still pretty new to making hard modes with FE7, thankfully they eventually learned to not make us unlock it.
 

DecoReturns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,003
Echoes, to me, was a sign that IS was willing to experiment with bringing back some traditional elements while also still bringing in new ones, like Mila's Turnwheel and the memory prisms. Both of which are absolutely stellar and should return in FE: Switch.
Turnwheel was great for those moments where I accidentally move a player or attack.

Prisms were like Path of Radiance supports/base conversations. Only they've went in further with the idea and hope they continue to use the concept.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
It really should've been a one-off mechanic, though. And supports / character relationships should be more in-line with Echoes going forward, IMO. Relationships that bud and grow realistically, and an ending in the post-game credits, rather than talking about your hobby 3x then getting married and knocked up.

Like, is that not more satisfying to people...? Reading a story of how characters grow together, and end up together because of the effort you put in (or something more tragic, but interesting, in some cases [Nino x Jaffar]), rather than having a marriage simulator with the thinnest veneer of bonding? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I just don't think Fire Emblem works to show "relationships that grow realistically" very well. The large cast and need to keep the script under a certain limit all work against it.

Now, that doesn't mean I don't care for the relationships in the game. I care, but my attachment to them comes mostly from them being playable units. So, I'll take a system that makes it so that it's the units I'm using that get featured in more scenes and also that gives me freedom to go for the pairings I prefer rather than get stuck with often unsatisfying choices, even if the build up to them is somewhat more natural (although still generally pretty poor outside of the context of FE itself).
 

Golnei

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,823
Avatars could even be shoehorned into remakes (Gaiden and FE4 being likely exceptions due to Story reasons).

I don't think that Echoes would have been received any better with an avatar - going by that precedent, I wouldn't rule out future Echoes games adding new characters in other places while keeping focus on the original leading cast - with the exception of 7's tactician, who would be very conspicuous if not expanded on; putting him in 6 would make sense as well.

I hope we'll finally be able to change skin tones if it happens.

That's one thing I'm definitely not expecting - Animal Crossing only just got that recently, and it has far more of a general life simulation focus. Corrin's options being more limited than Robin's might be a specific story thing that doesn't apply to the next avatar, but the lack of a skin tone option is something that I really don't think they'll see a point in changing, even with a less defined avatar.

maybe don't let everyone have sex with them? I dunno. They'll never let that one go.

That is a central part of the avatar's purpose which they're not going to abandon any time soon. I just hope there are fewer characters which get supports just with them.
 

spiritfox

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,623
All I want is the story not to be centered around the avatar. Awakening at least was focused on Chrom's story for the first part.

I just want to be the tactician again, not a hero or something.
 

Uncle Death

Member
Oct 28, 2017
45
http://DEEP-HELL.COM
Too bad I guess bubba. Me for starters; ever since I started playing this game I "knew" in my heart of hearts that the tactician was meant to "bone down" on lyndis in FE7 or whatever. Them making Robin a bad ass lady (or a badass dude) and letting me "get legit" with all of these cool warriors and savage warlords made my interest in the series rise to new heights!

Also it's funny, cuz in FE: Fates you can totally fuck ya sister on both sides. it's great! if you fuck your sister in the samurai campaign there's a part where your good and evil sisters get in a fight over which side you belong to / who's brother you really are when one of them is totally married to you on the D/L.

The new fire emblem games are the horniest and it is completely ridiculous.
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,647
Fire Emblem has always been about shipping. Since day one.

It's more this weird player-centric fawning that's getting weird. I dunno, fix the plot and the writing and I think the issues with everything else go away, even if every character can date the avatar.
 

Drax

Oregon tag
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,078
Fire Emblem has always been about shipping. Since day one.

It's more this weird player-centric fawning that's getting weird. I dunno, fix the plot and the writing and I think the issues with everything else go away, even if every character can date the avatar.

The only game that really didn't have that much shipping were FE1, I'm not sure if the Abel/Est thing in FE3 was player influenced or not as a result of the fandom popularity of the characters or not.

Gaiden is love triangle heaven.

The player fawning is weird because it used to be lord fawning (marth and roy for example get it alot). However, Fates takes it to an EXTREME.
 

Gunny T Highway

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,998
Canada
The only game that really didn't have that much shipping were FE1, I'm not sure if the Abel/Est thing in FE3 was player influenced or not as a result of the fandom popularity of the characters or not.

Gaiden is love triangle heaven.

The player fawning is weird because it used to be lord fawning (marth and roy for example get it alot). However, Fates takes it to an EXTREME.
Personally I feel "Chris" your avatar in FE 12 (Japan only so a lot people have not played it) is a bit worse when it comes to the player fawning. Fates is pretty dang close though.
 

Zebei

Member
Oct 25, 2017
766
you can totally fuck ya sister on both sides. it's great!
1566.gif

y'all need jesus
 

jnWake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,108
Robin as an avatar was nice. Chrom was still the main character for most of the story and only a few story beats revolve around Robin. Being the tactician means Robin gets a lot of praise and recognition during the story but I always felt the story was Chrom's/Lucina's with Robin as support.

Corrin is different since the character is much more developed than Robin, but is put in a weird story. The two families fighting over Corrin isn't that weird since it's their sibling after all. However, what makes it kinda hilarious is that no one cares about Azura who is in practically the same position (with some differences though). The problems in Fates' storyline mainly lie on the fact that they wrote a two sides story while making one side evidently the good one and the other side the evil one, which makes the plot very silly in Conquest, especially considering that Corrin is good so making them fight for Nohr against Hoshido required very forced reasons.

For future games I don't mind avatars, they can still take a support role like in FE7 or in many parts of Awakening. I hope they tone down the characters that can only support with the avatar though, I always feel quite discouraged to use them when compared to the rest of the cast.
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,647
I feel pretty comfortable writing off any rumor that starts with:
  • Darker and more mature
  • More like the "insert older, more obscure/cult classic here" games
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,243
I don't think that Echoes would have been received any better with an avatar - going by that precedent, I wouldn't rule out future Echoes games adding new characters in other places while keeping focus on the original leading cast - with the exception of 7's tactician, who would be very conspicuous if not expanded on; putting him in 6 would make sense as well..
The biggest problem with adding 7's tactician to 6 is that it would mess with Roy. Roy is fairly standard among the lords but one characteristic he has going for him is that despite his inexperience he is pretty smart, and going further down that route would greatly improve his character in a remake and help make him stand out more among the other lords.

Having a tactician advising and suggesting what actions Roy can make would take away from that. Though I wouldn't be against say the tactician having learned how to fight in between 7 and 6 and being recruitable in a new gaiden map, they can even throw Lyn in there as well.
 

Lynx_7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,331
A good rule of thumb is that if it sounds too much like something the fanbase might want or has been asking for, then it was probably cooked up by a fan.
 

McNum

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,184
Denmark
Oh, hey, didn't see this thread!

To chime in on the whole Avatar debate, I like Robin as an avatar because he makes sense as the player character. Robin's role in the game is to be the tactician Chrom found in a ditch and brought onto the team because, well, Chrom is decidedly NOT a tactician. If "Hit it with Falchion!" doesn't work, he's out of ideas. So Robin gets to order people around and generally does a fine job of it, though he does defer to Chrom, but Chrom is perfectly happy to let Robin handle this. And what's the player's role? To be a tactician and order units around! Perfect overlap of player role and avatar role.

I'd like to see another Robin, the brains behind the Lord, so to speak. Let the Lord do the royal things and let the player avatar handle the tactics. Corrin being both the Avatar and the Lord just muddled that up. When Corrin did something you as a player didn't want to, it broke the connection. Cleaning up Chrom's messes was fine. Creating messes yourself because the plot said so... gets annoying. And it doesn't help that Corrin's personality doesn't really fit the tactician mold, yet she is still leading everyone, even those that outrank her. To use that phrase, Corrin as a ludonarrative dissonance problem. The character presented does not seem capable of performing the feats you as a player must do. Or make the choices you as a player would have made, despite being an avatar character.

So if there's another avatar, please let that person be a tactician or otherwise tactical minded person. It makes the connection between player and avatar that much stronger.
 
Oct 25, 2017
523
If they remake FE7, I don't mind if they make the tactician playable (so long as it's balanced accordingly) but I hope they stay silent and it still has the hilarious parts where characters turn their face and talk to you.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,529
Having a tactician advising and suggesting what actions Roy can make would take away from that. Though I wouldn't be against say the tactician having learned how to fight in between 7 and 6 and being recruitable in a new gaiden map, they can even throw Lyn in there as well.
Having a playable gary stu avatar is probably the worst thing they've done to the Fire Emblem franchise, because it enabled the dating simulator aspect we veteran fans grew to hate. At least the avatar in FE7 couldn't actually mate with anyone.
 

JosephL64

Member
Oct 25, 2017
469
Houston
Having a playable gary stu avatar is probably the worst thing they've done to the Fire Emblem franchise, because it enabled the dating simulator aspect we veteran fans grew to hate. At least the avatar in FE7 couldn't actually mate with anyone.

Although I agree with the idea of not wanting that avatar to fight on the battlefield and have super close relationships w everyone...I don't believe that the avatar would've changed the trajectory of the "dating sim" by much.

All I see is it speeding up the process, but even without the avatar, people would still be shipping people, and IS would make it a mechanic. that's all conjecture of course.

-----------------------

On a personal note I don't mind the dating sim stuff, and kind of liked petting(I know, I know). However, the main things I would like to be reigned in are the avatar hooking up with almost the entire cast if not the entire cast, and an overall more limited amount of bonds characters have. I feel like it hurts the game when a person can build relatonships w the whole team, because it's evident the writing quality took a hit. I'd rather have less bonds if it meant that the conversations would feel more real, and are deeper rather than surface level nonsense. Extremely evident when people had to get married in fates since the were just nonstop the same rehashed lines since some characters really had no reason to be together. the jumps from A rank support to S were wildly inconsistent and out of nowhere.

Also, I'd like IS to add kids only if there's a real reason to have them there. I ended up not caring about the child generation in Fates in part because it was so forced for them to even be in the game to begin with. the game would've been more streamlined without them if I were to be completely honest. I don't want to write off child units forever from FE, thus the caveat of them needing a believable reason to exist.
 

Sol

Member
Oct 25, 2017
313
Personally, what's more worrying to me is that the Avatar has consistently been a super broken unit for the past three games -- or just more powerful than most of the army, in Corrin's case. I've been thinking that it's because IS thinks that the avatar has to be a powerful unit so players can enjoy using them, and it's just so terrible for game balance.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,243
Having a playable gary stu avatar is probably the worst thing they've done to the Fire Emblem franchise, because it enabled the dating simulator aspect we veteran fans grew to hate. At least the avatar in FE7 couldn't actually mate with anyone.
I never really felt like the avatar in Awakening and Fates were a self insert thing, they have their own personality and dialogue, generally make their own choices and just don't feel like blank slates. Other than being able to change their sex, looks, and name they're not used differently in the narrative than any other main character in the series.

The dating simulator thing is back because FE4 is a popular game, and Awakening was pulling from every corner of the series, and elements of it have existed in nearly every game with supports.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
Regarding that rumor, they mention the possibility of changing the avatar's personality, but technically that was already in Fates. The speech styles in the Japanese version sometimes rewrote entire sentences to show a more casual or overly formal personality if the player had chosen them. It just got cut by the localization.

Personally, what's more worrying to me is that the Avatar has consistently been a super broken unit for the past three games -- or just more powerful than most of the army, in Corrin's case. I've been thinking that it's because IS thinks that the avatar has to be a powerful unit so players can enjoy using them, and it's just so terrible for game balance.
Part of it is that they're pretty conscious about how gameplay power plays part in popularity, just look at the Royals in Fates. They pushed them onto the player not only storywise, but also through their stats.

Having a playable gary stu avatar is probably the worst thing they've done to the Fire Emblem franchise, because it enabled the dating simulator aspect we veteran fans grew to hate. At least the avatar in FE7 couldn't actually mate with anyone.
I think even without an official Avatar elements like Awakening's 1st person marriage pictures or Fates' "My Room" would still have happened. Just look at Echoes. Even though Alm and Celica aren't avatars, the game has no problem suddenly going first person with them when it wants (like the conversations in villages). Rather than an avatar, you'd just get a designed protagonist that couldn't be customized in the same position.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,529
I never really felt like the avatar in Awakening and Fates were a self insert thing, they have their own personality and dialogue, generally make their own choices and just don't feel like blank slates. Other than being able to change their sex, looks, and name they're not used differently in the narrative than any other main character in the series.
The fact that the avatar is one of the most broken characters and that he can S support with almost any one of the opposite sex is telling that it's a self-insert character. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the avatar in Awakening had amnesia, which is a classic plot device precisely because it introduces a blank slate. He/she can't remember who he/she is, so you use your own projection. You own that character as a result. What else could he/she be?

It's a bit like Xenoblade X. By using an avatar, it changes the narrative considerably (for the worst for a number of people), so much that Elma becomes the central protagonist in the story.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,243
The fact that the avatar is one of the most broken characters and that he can S support with almost any one of the opposite sex is telling that it's a self-insert character. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the avatar in Awakening had amnesia, which is a classic plot device precisely because it introduces a blank slate. He/she can't remember who he/she is, so you use your own projection. You own that character as a result. What else could he/she be?

It's a bit like Xenoblade X. By using an avatar, it changes the narrative considerably (for the worst for a number of people), so much that Elma becomes the central protagonist in the story.
What happens in FE and in XBX are pretty different, our character in XBX is silent, that's why Elma ends up becoming the main character. I said in my other post that the Avatar in FE has their own personality and dialogue that isn't influenced by the player, that's why they don't feel like a self insert to me. I'm not making Robin's or Corrin's choices for the most part, I don't own them.

Anyways, the strong character that we can choose who they marry is a power fantasy thing, it can allow someone to look at that character as a self insert, but it's pretty common among FE protagonists and not the same as the blank slate silent protagonist that I think of with video game self insert characters.
Also, amnesia isn't new to the series with Awakening, it's not difficult to compare Robin and Julia in their role in the story, it was probably even intentional.
 

DecoReturns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,003
Been listing to the Echoes soundtrack at work lately. I really love Berkut's themes. He has couple and the final one he has it's fantastic. Such a sad theme with a hint of creepiness.

Probabrly one of my favorite Fire Emblem villains.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,529
Correct me if I'm wrong again, but all FE main protagonists aren't the strongest characters in their respective game until Ike came along, arguably Ephraim as well because of his unique class, growths and base stats.
 

theprodigy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
685
Correct me if I'm wrong again, but all FE main protagonists aren't the strongest characters in their respective game until Ike came along, arguably Ephraim as well because of his unique class, growths and base stats.
jesus christ this take is dumb

FE1/3 Marth, FE2 Alm, Sigurd, Seliph, more importantly Ike isn't the best or particularly close in either of his games
 
Oct 25, 2017
523
Correct me if I'm wrong again, but all FE main protagonists aren't the strongest characters in their respective game until Ike came along, arguably Ephraim as well because of his unique class, growths and base stats.
aside from Ike not being close to the best in either of his games, Ephraim is basically Raven with a better weapon type/promotion but worse availability in Eirika's route, he's good but Seth, Vanessa, Franz, etc. are all much higher.

What are you talking about?
Ike is nowhere near the strongest unit in his games and in several of the Kaga games the Lord was the best character.
 

DecoReturns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,003
Ike isn't the best character in his game. Others surpass him.

Especially in Radiant Dawn.

Path of radiance is so easy tho. Makes Ike look unstoppable
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,243
Correct me if I'm wrong again, but all FE main protagonists aren't the strongest characters in their respective game until Ike came along, arguably Ephraim as well because of his unique class, growths and base stats.
I don't think Robin is the strongest in Awakening either, I'm guessing it's Morgan, maybe some other kid. I don't know how the units stand in that game though.

Does it matter though? If someone like Seliph can become strong enough to make FE4 a musou game like his father did, and he can marry nearly anyone of the opposite sex, what's the difference between him and Robin?
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,529
Yeah but I don't know why he mentioned those other lords to make his argument.

Also my point was from a stat/growth perspective, not from playthrough efficiency because lol cavalry.

I can't comment on RD, but in PoR, Ike has on average at 20/20: 51.5 HP, 26 Str, 27 Skl, 28 Spd, 19.3 Lck, 23.2 Def, 17.2 Res, which is great even among his peers. And 20/20 is insanely easy to reach thanks to bonus EXP. That's the thing. Whereas other lords struggle versus their peers, usually because of late promotions or inferior stats, Ike can stand toe to toe.

If you still consider Ike to be weak, well, that just feeds more into the avatar being OP going against the grain of the past.

Edit: I didn't say THE strongest character jesus christ you guys need to read better.
 
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Drax

Oregon tag
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,078
I don't think Robin is the strongest in Awakening either, I'm guessing it's Morgan, maybe some other kid. I don't know how the units stand in that game though.

Does it matter though? If someone like Seliph can become strong enough to make FE4 a musou game like his father did, and he can marry nearly anyone of the opposite sex, what's the difference between him and Robin?

Robin's strong due to availability.

Basically, fire emblem was targeted at young japanese boys. Young Japanese boys wanted to be Marth or Roy (especially during the GBA era where they especially went for a younger audience), however by doing so it kinda limits the audience, so the avatar is an attempt to expand.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
That was one of the points where Corrin failed as an avatar character, since their relationship with their siblings was pretty defined, limiting their age range. In addition to that taking the protagonist spot ended up working against them since they could easily take decisions the player disagreed with, especially when the game went out of their way to show them making wrong decisions to keep their hands clean, while other characters take the blood in their place. Situations like those really should have been avoided to avoid dissonance from the protagonist, especially if they weren't going to leave things up to player choice.
 

theprodigy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
685
Yeah but I don't know why he mentioned those other lords to make his argument.
"Correct me if I'm wrong again, but all FE main protagonists aren't the strongest characters in their respective game until Ike came along"

"here's FIVE Kaga-era lords that are the #1 unit in their game/generation"

"huh why'd you bring those guys up"

Technically, one could argue the avatars being OP is in fact a restoration of Kaga-era design, it certainly isn't new at any rate.

edit: ok I guess Palla/Catria beat FE3 book 2 Marth but like, that's still RD Ike level
 
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Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,529
I forgot about Sigurd. And FE1 Marth and Alm count too I suppose, although I never played those games so it wasn't exactly clear to me what your point was. FE3 book two Marth is kind of meh though.