he isn't really a child soldier. the opening of Force Awakens is his first deployment -- at least that's what the movie says
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Finally saw The Last Jedi and now i see what y'all mean
- Thread starter hwarang
- Start date
he isn't really a child soldier. the opening of Force Awakens is his first deployment -- at least that's what the movie says
I remember the excessive hate. Not any excessive praise, though.
This is the equivalent of saying "You've killed to run away. And your still trying to run away.But were not gonna let you run away cause we want you yo instead kill this for us. Then and only then will you not be a coward."
I'm sorry but quite frankly I'm a bit offended by being called an alt-righter, only because I'm "meh" on a movie.
Especially since nobody so far has really addressed my main points of criticism, namely Poe's and Finn's weirdly paced and uninspired stories, intead I just get called alt-right for even having them.
Sorry, I have enough Star Wars on the resume to flaunt this opinion with pride.
You're kidding right? The entire fighting was basically "She is a fucking terrible character, ruined the film" with "No she is the fucking best new character in Star Wars, and best part of the film"
It was sad to watch, but at least not as sad to be part of lol
I am not talking addressng just you i am talking about the situation, because the toxic alt right attacked this film, any discussion about it will never actually happen, because even though you could have legitimate criticism about something, you wll eventually be accused to be toxic alt righter because they attacked the media, it's happens for this movie and a certain game in the games forum.
as a result both end up being seriously over defended and over hated, no discussion or middle ground will ever be made
No, I don't remember that. I remember the comments on her looks, the save what you love line, her sister should've been the main actual character, calling her worse than Jar Jar and obviously the harassment. I don't remember all too many calling her the best part of the film.
One particularly pathetic thing I remember happening here, was in the thread about her leaving social media, people not being able to help themselves from saying that "she fucking sucked, but harassment is bad, but she definitely sucked!"
Ah fair play. I misunderstood your initial message then.
And yeah, I agree. The movie's become weirdly politicised, especially on Era, where it seems not liking the movie makes you a Nazi.
A similar thing happened to TLOU2 (which I loved, for the record). Sure, not liking it because of Abby might make you misogynistic, but there's still other valid reasons why you might not have enjoyed it.
Exactly.
In RotJ, Luke was baited into attacking by a skilled, manipulative opponent holding a weapon.
In TLJ, Luke was baited into attacking by his sleeping nephew.
Pretty much the same thing.
Finn
I'm not Resistance. I'm not a hero. I'm a stormtrooper. Like all of them, I was taken from a family I'll never know. And raised to do one thing. But my first battle, I made a choice. I wasn't gonna kill for them. So I ran, right into you. And you looked at me like no one ever had. I was ashamed...
starwars.fandom.com
His name Finn is a nickname for FN-2187 apparently.
Finn
I'm not Resistance. I'm not a hero. I'm a stormtrooper. Like all of them, I was taken from a family I'll never know. And raised to do one thing. But my first battle, I made a choice. I wasn't gonna kill for them. So I ran, right into you. And you looked at me like no one ever had. I was ashamed...
This is directly from the force awakens script
Like all of them, I was taken from a
family I'll never know. And raised
to do one thing...
(EMOTIONAL)
But my first battle, I made a choice.
I wasn't going to kill for them. So
I ran.
People are killed in the hundreds in this movie, and you are worried about kids seeing a bit if blood?
Uh, "rasied to do one thing" would imply he was raised as a child soldier. Unless you are implying no one is a soldier until they've been in an active battle at least once.
I mean it was the best mainline Star Wars movie in over 30 years, I get why people would be thrown off when the previous 4 movies before it had been pretty mediocre
I'm talking about the OP and the points established there. I said I wasn't referring to you specifically. Mostly addressing the OP and their list which is the premise of the thread and an opinion I find shared by a lot of not great people.
But yes, video games pander to toxic masculinity and the alt-right quite a bit. This whole modern, super online conservative movement got basically jump started by video gaming. The Mando season finale was definitely pandering as I believe part of the message of the Prequel trilogy was that the Jedi fell because they became too mundane and embroiled in the physical world. Too busy flexing on droids with swords to see the real threat. A real master doesn't need a lightsaber, They don't even need a body.
Themes, big ideas, the meaning behind the movie all work as fairly decently. In universe continuity, making plotting sense, dramatically building tension for the series, the developed conflicts and their resolution. I agree with the scenes OP noted as poor. And it doesn't even bring into account the destruction of Finn as a character, the cheesy casino run, etc.
TLJ didn't seem like the work of someone who cared about the series, which is where much of Rian's rebellious credit comes from. My anticipation for IX coming out was nill. But I don't blame him much, there was very little creative vision for the trilogy overall. It was simply an acquired brand, which is all it's been since then
TLJ didn't seem like the work of someone who cared about the series, which is where much of Rian's rebellious credit comes from. My anticipation for IX coming out was nill. But I don't blame him much, there was very little creative vision for the trilogy overall. It was simply an acquired brand, which is all it's been since then
but thats the point, Finn didnt know anything about the real war.
the original point was that Rose explaining finn war was bad, because he was a child soldier.
but in reality he didnt knew anything bout war.
he only knew what the FO teached him, which would be something heavily one sided.
It's the best of the sequel trilogy but it's still a bottom tier star wars movie with Force Awaken Rise of Skywalker and Attack of the Clones.
OP
OP
Yes, assume that I'm alt right. Good grief. Just stop. It's okay to not like a movie.
Nothing what I said indicates alt right.
Circumcising, Tipping, and The Last Jedi.
These threads usually turn into dumpster fires of retreading the same ground.
FWIW I agree with the OP. I also understand that Rian Johnson is a great director and storyteller, but his version of Star Wars was not what I wanted to see and I think a lot of other people feel the same way based on the reactions I've seen to the ending of a certain season of a certain Star Wars series on Disney+
That said, we all should recognize and try to respect that Star Wars fans now span multiple generations, and each generation grew up with a different type of Star Wars and they all want something different out of the franchise. Some want all new, all different Star Wars, some want OT era Star Wars, some want prequel era Star Wars, and some want nothing but nostalgic fan service.
That makes it incredibly difficult to please everyone that wants more Star Wars.
These threads usually turn into dumpster fires of retreading the same ground.
FWIW I agree with the OP. I also understand that Rian Johnson is a great director and storyteller, but his version of Star Wars was not what I wanted to see and I think a lot of other people feel the same way based on the reactions I've seen to the ending of a certain season of a certain Star Wars series on Disney+
That said, we all should recognize and try to respect that Star Wars fans now span multiple generations, and each generation grew up with a different type of Star Wars and they all want something different out of the franchise. Some want all new, all different Star Wars, some want OT era Star Wars, some want prequel era Star Wars, and some want nothing but nostalgic fan service.
That makes it incredibly difficult to please everyone that wants more Star Wars.
I want to preface these points with this: I like star wars, and I really enjoy the universe. Even if I have a lot of problems with TLJ, or Attack of the Clones, or other star wars shows/movies, I still genuinely enjoy them in spite of their flaws. Even a bad star wars movie tends to be fun, in most cases. Alrighty...
The Good:
I genuinely like the Force connection between Rey and Kylo. The communication and ability to manipulate/see objects wherever the other is is really cool. This is, I think, Johnson's best contribution to the universe.
Puppet Yoda Force ghost coming to see Luke, I love it. My favorite scene in the movie, even if I have a liiitle bit of a lore problem with Luke trying to burn a sacred temple with sacred texts and-- wait, this is the Good section...see below.
I also genuinely liked how Luke died. I think him Force projecting himself across the galaxy is one of the single most impressive usages of the Force I have ever seen, without going too far into the realm of cheesyness like pulling a star destroyer out of the sky (for example).
Kylo Ren. Adam Driver continues to be one of the best elements of the sequel trilogy, and we do not deserve him. I enjoyed everything about his arc here.
Visually a very stunning film, and much of the choreography and design was excellent and fun to watch. The lightspeed ram in particular was breathtaking in theaters, and the fallout of the impact on the ship while Kylo and Rey are within it, and it begins to fall apart around them, was gorgeous.
The Meh:
The lightspeed ram was fine, didn't bother me.
The bombing run at the beginning doesn't make any sense but I also don't care, it's Star Wars.
Luke was fine, Luke didn't bother me but overall I didn't love it (except the lightsaber toss which was...lol). His death was moving and appropriate, I thought (see above). Though I was also not a fan of his complete disregard for the sacred jedi temple and texts when he went to burn them. It was also odd when yoda showed a complete disregard for them as well. I get it, the theme of the movie is "let the past die, let it go". And within the theme of the movie that makes sense. Admittedly I do also think there is some quality to the idea that Yoda has transcended and no longer holds much credence for physical and religious idols such as "sacred jedi texts". But like other things in TLJ I think this concept is slightly undercooked, and could have spent more time in the writing room.
Rose is fine, I don't have any problems with her. Unfortunately she's tied into the Canto Bight issues, which are not her fault as a character. She was robbed in the sequel.
Poe was incredibly luke(heh)warm this entire film. His arc was not interesting, and more often than not it was frustrating to watch. We also go to see almost nothing about what made his character unique in the first place, that he was an ace pilot. We got a taste at the beginning, he spent the rest of the movie on the main ship just getting in the way. All in all Poe and Finn were the two biggest misses as far as character arcs go in this one, and it feels like they were just undercooked in the writing room.
The Bad:
Oh boy! Canto Bight is probably the most boring sequence in Star Wars since 90% of Attack of the Clones (but even that gave us the Clone Wars series). It also completely throws off the flow and pacing of the movie. TLJ is leagues, LEAGUES better if you cut out 100% of Canto Bight and Rose and Finn come back for Crait and you just assume as an audience that they got what they needed done. Which would not be good writing if that's how it was actually handled, which goes to show how poor Canto Bight as a sequence truly is: that the alternative is still bad. This ties into my next point about poorly written and timed humor, that Johnson probably just wanted to have some wacky star wars fun with it. Which is...fine, star wars has always been weird, fun, and humorous after all. But I felt as though the type of humor and wacky star wars adventure he was going for with Canto Bight missed the mark. ALSO, what the fuck were they thinking casting Justin Theroux as the Master Codebreaker only to NOT USE HIM? He's a fantastic actor, what a miss. And there was a second master codebreaker chillin' in the holding cells? Alright. Undercooked, underwritten, overproduced sequence was not great.
Finn was robbed. Uh...see above.
Everything Holdo should have been Leia, including the lightspeed ram and death. Everything. Holdo is a great example of a newly added character that an existing character can already fill the role of, and is therefore just...extra, and should be cut. Which is a damn shame because I love Laura Dern, and she of course did great with what she had.
Lots of poorly timed humor, particularly the opening scene prank call. Very bad.
Do we even have to talk about how poorly Phasma and Finn's encounter was handled? (There is some deleted content that improves this scene, but...it was cut). It was basically just "oh yeah, we have Phasma, don't we?...". The only part of Finn's character arc that had real consequence, and called back to the previous film, and even then it was poorly executed.
Overall felt very disjointed and is not a great sequel. The argument can be made it is a better standalone film, but that's not what it is supposed to be. And even then a lot of the problems I have with the movie (such as structure, writing choices, etc) do not go away when TLJ is looked at as a standalone film...it just kind of makes it feel worse, in fact.
Personal Nitpicks:
Huuuuuugely disappointing lack of Force power usage during the throne room fight with Snoke's guard. Where were the Force powers, we just lighsabin' now?? (This is a nitpick I have with a lot of SW films, not just TLJ, but this scene was the PERFECT place for some great Force power spectacle > lightsaber spectacle).
Massive missed opportunity to go further into grey jedi ideologies with Luke and Rey. The trailer really made me think we were going to get this, with Luke's line of "there's so much more...".
The Good:
I genuinely like the Force connection between Rey and Kylo. The communication and ability to manipulate/see objects wherever the other is is really cool. This is, I think, Johnson's best contribution to the universe.
Puppet Yoda Force ghost coming to see Luke, I love it. My favorite scene in the movie, even if I have a liiitle bit of a lore problem with Luke trying to burn a sacred temple with sacred texts and-- wait, this is the Good section...see below.
I also genuinely liked how Luke died. I think him Force projecting himself across the galaxy is one of the single most impressive usages of the Force I have ever seen, without going too far into the realm of cheesyness like pulling a star destroyer out of the sky (for example).
Kylo Ren. Adam Driver continues to be one of the best elements of the sequel trilogy, and we do not deserve him. I enjoyed everything about his arc here.
Visually a very stunning film, and much of the choreography and design was excellent and fun to watch. The lightspeed ram in particular was breathtaking in theaters, and the fallout of the impact on the ship while Kylo and Rey are within it, and it begins to fall apart around them, was gorgeous.
The Meh:
The lightspeed ram was fine, didn't bother me.
The bombing run at the beginning doesn't make any sense but I also don't care, it's Star Wars.
Luke was fine, Luke didn't bother me but overall I didn't love it (except the lightsaber toss which was...lol). His death was moving and appropriate, I thought (see above). Though I was also not a fan of his complete disregard for the sacred jedi temple and texts when he went to burn them. It was also odd when yoda showed a complete disregard for them as well. I get it, the theme of the movie is "let the past die, let it go". And within the theme of the movie that makes sense. Admittedly I do also think there is some quality to the idea that Yoda has transcended and no longer holds much credence for physical and religious idols such as "sacred jedi texts". But like other things in TLJ I think this concept is slightly undercooked, and could have spent more time in the writing room.
Rose is fine, I don't have any problems with her. Unfortunately she's tied into the Canto Bight issues, which are not her fault as a character. She was robbed in the sequel.
Poe was incredibly luke(heh)warm this entire film. His arc was not interesting, and more often than not it was frustrating to watch. We also go to see almost nothing about what made his character unique in the first place, that he was an ace pilot. We got a taste at the beginning, he spent the rest of the movie on the main ship just getting in the way. All in all Poe and Finn were the two biggest misses as far as character arcs go in this one, and it feels like they were just undercooked in the writing room.
The Bad:
Oh boy! Canto Bight is probably the most boring sequence in Star Wars since 90% of Attack of the Clones (but even that gave us the Clone Wars series). It also completely throws off the flow and pacing of the movie. TLJ is leagues, LEAGUES better if you cut out 100% of Canto Bight and Rose and Finn come back for Crait and you just assume as an audience that they got what they needed done. Which would not be good writing if that's how it was actually handled, which goes to show how poor Canto Bight as a sequence truly is: that the alternative is still bad. This ties into my next point about poorly written and timed humor, that Johnson probably just wanted to have some wacky star wars fun with it. Which is...fine, star wars has always been weird, fun, and humorous after all. But I felt as though the type of humor and wacky star wars adventure he was going for with Canto Bight missed the mark. ALSO, what the fuck were they thinking casting Justin Theroux as the Master Codebreaker only to NOT USE HIM? He's a fantastic actor, what a miss. And there was a second master codebreaker chillin' in the holding cells? Alright. Undercooked, underwritten, overproduced sequence was not great.
Finn was robbed. Uh...see above.
Everything Holdo should have been Leia, including the lightspeed ram and death. Everything. Holdo is a great example of a newly added character that an existing character can already fill the role of, and is therefore just...extra, and should be cut. Which is a damn shame because I love Laura Dern, and she of course did great with what she had.
Lots of poorly timed humor, particularly the opening scene prank call. Very bad.
Do we even have to talk about how poorly Phasma and Finn's encounter was handled? (There is some deleted content that improves this scene, but...it was cut). It was basically just "oh yeah, we have Phasma, don't we?...". The only part of Finn's character arc that had real consequence, and called back to the previous film, and even then it was poorly executed.
Overall felt very disjointed and is not a great sequel. The argument can be made it is a better standalone film, but that's not what it is supposed to be. And even then a lot of the problems I have with the movie (such as structure, writing choices, etc) do not go away when TLJ is looked at as a standalone film...it just kind of makes it feel worse, in fact.
Personal Nitpicks:
Huuuuuugely disappointing lack of Force power usage during the throne room fight with Snoke's guard. Where were the Force powers, we just lighsabin' now?? (This is a nitpick I have with a lot of SW films, not just TLJ, but this scene was the PERFECT place for some great Force power spectacle > lightsaber spectacle).
Massive missed opportunity to go further into grey jedi ideologies with Luke and Rey. The trailer really made me think we were going to get this, with Luke's line of "there's so much more...".
This is true, there are many reasons not like media or characters or how that media is represented, if you don't like abby because of her appearance you are likely misogynistic,
My problem with it isn't the messaging or the intent, it's the structure and execution. Finn had already begun to fight for something more than his own interests by the end of TFA. Rather than beat us over the head with a new reason for him to fight, I think he could have explored that part of his character on the ship with the other Resistance crew. Rose could have been much more than Finn's partner on the Canto Bight bit as well. I don't agree that ejecting them from the central situation into a side episode was the right way to handle their characters. And I think they have good synergy with each other on screen. Rose had just lost her sister - she wasn't given the chance to grieve, and the Canto Bight sequence took away any chance of that loss being explored in her character beyond trying to live up to her legacy. Han and Leia are main characters because their arcs are entwined with Luke's. I didn't get the sense that Finn and Rose's arcs mattered to the central plot, to Rey's story. In that way they and Poe don't feel like main characters. Finn holding that lightsaber in TFA posters, the two times he picked up that saber and showed the potential of being more than just the token black guy, snuffed. TLJ made it clear he would never be anything more. Now, I think that an alternate would have been him coming to terms with fighting against his former comrades, his fear of Phasma (and making her an actual character), exploring the stormtroopers to a deeper level through his character. Or if we go back to Finn as a potential force user, Leia would surely have sensed something in him and they might actually have interacted in a meaningful way. How cool would that be? Instead, we should be content that he and Rose confirm that there are people profiting off war. That's worth exploring, but it deserves more than a B plot, and I didn't feel it had immediate relevance to the Resistance getting imminently hunted down by the First Order.
The man was stolen from his real family and was "raised to do one thing" with other stolen children. I would assume that wasn't a very pleasant upbringing and he might know a thing or two about how shitty the world treats people. But sure, he totally needed to be lectured by another adult about how war can cause people to be put in bad situations.
You're saying this in a Star Wars thread.
Star Wars. Which hasn't been anything other than mediocre or garbage until literally the fucking Mandalorian in 2019. And Mando is good, but not transcendent like some claim it to be.
I guess that's how desperate SW fans are for something that isn't bad or at best, mediocre. SW has had its time. Let it die.
If The Last Jedi made you upset, wait until you see the next one.
I think if you want to make this argument than we should at least acknowledge Snoke's presence, another powerful dark side user who had invaded Ben's mind, that's what Luke was responding to.
but by that point we did not know any of that.
you are using dialogue from TROS to make your point.
we dont even know if Finn remembered anything.
he just decided not to kill innocents villagers.
maybe if they were in a real combat situation, he would have fought.
I didn't want to get into the nastiness of the hate, but there were some real exaggerations in how great the character was in opposition. In reality, the character wasn't significant enough for anything being said from the Rose haters and lovers. And you would think there would be an outrage over her being in only one scene in the last film given the support and love for the character against the hate, but the noise from the few who did care was hardly anything at all.
The harassment of the actress is completely different though, that was just wrong. The character's significance in the movie though was not worth tearing each other apart over and no one fought for her return.
I've long since made my peace with the fact a huge subset of Star Wars fans are ideological purists who can't handle subtlety or nuance; for whom anything short of Luke Skywalker solo'ing an army of stormtroopers like the galaxy's greatest badass is unspeakable blasphemy.
For me, The Last Jedi is what happens when you give the right filmmaker the keys to something sacred and trust them to make the most of the opportunity. Rian Johnson is a treasure.
Its such a classy film, marred only by its handling of Finn's subplot and the inclusion of things Disney absolutely forced Ryan's hand on (the prevalence of kid stuff on Canto Blight, etc.) It takes risks, and lands most of them. More importantly it shows reverence if you know what to look for.
For me, The Last Jedi is what happens when you give the right filmmaker the keys to something sacred and trust them to make the most of the opportunity. Rian Johnson is a treasure.
Its such a classy film, marred only by its handling of Finn's subplot and the inclusion of things Disney absolutely forced Ryan's hand on (the prevalence of kid stuff on Canto Blight, etc.) It takes risks, and lands most of them. More importantly it shows reverence if you know what to look for.
In canon Finn was raised a child soldier, and all of this was discussed at the time TLJ first came out.
It's so bad it makes me laugh. Pure comedy. At this point I don't even consider this trilogy part of the Star War universe. I mean there is silly and bad (Ep I and II) and there killing my suspension of disbelief to the point where it's just funny.
that is dialogue from the force awakens when he reveals he's a stormtrooper to rey
As I said I don't hate TLJ and overall I like it better than TROS like fuck TROS was bad.
But if someone tries to tell you that a child soldier wanting to run away from a war he was abducted into is ....."selfish" then y'all really need to stop putting that writing on a pedestal .
But if someone tries to tell you that a child soldier wanting to run away from a war he was abducted into is ....."selfish" then y'all really need to stop putting that writing on a pedestal .
and how that changes anything?
he was a child soldier brainwashed to believe that what the First Order stands for was worth dying, killing for.
to most of the stormtroopers what they are doing is Justice.
so he not having the time to reflect on what his upbringing meant, before seeing the reality of the world, the war, is not that far-fetched.
I just pretend the new trilogy never happened, and use Mandalorian as the true continuation of the original trilogy.
Agreed.
By all counts Finn earned his freedom and could have left to find his own life, his own path. And he would have been COMPLETELY justified in doing so, as a matter of fact. But as pointed out by others previously, by the end of TFA he had made the choice to stay and fight for something bigger than him, even though it brings him right back around to face the very thing he is trying to escape...the First Order. That was locked in at the end of TFA, that was a good, a very good, character arc.
His arc in TLJ was pretty pointless for him to experience, coming from TFA. So by the time we get to Rise of Skywalker it feels like Finn really only had 1 movie's worth of growth, and they didn't know what to do with him in the context of ROS, so they relegated him to sidekick status permanently.
Finn's writing after TFA is one of my biggest disappointments of the entire trilogy, I think.
I mean there is a big reason why john boyega criticized his role from tlj onwards
it was big enouugh for him to face the first order and not run away from it, that is enough