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PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,742
The world feels too small in XV. When we finally get to the other continent where it's supposed to make us feel really far from the beginning of the game the devs just butchered it thanks to deadlines.

I mean I don't disagree that the Imperial Continent being delivered the way it was was a mistake, especially when they DID model as much of it as they did. But XII similarly feels like a tiny piece of a world. It has "more" locations nominally, but virtually none of them are interesting or have anything to do in them.

X was the beginning of the scale crunch that's hit Final Fantasy as hard as it has, and XII was another victim of that. Ever since we lost world maps, the series has felt less and less like world-spanning adventures and more like a bunch of lego playsets assembled in a tiny backyard.

Oh XIII-2 is a scream in its entirety, the fact that they thought that the best way to make a continuation to the first game was to make the main character literally fall through a spontaneous crack in the ground seconds after the climactic self-serious ending of XIII will never not make me laugh.

Lightning Returns is no slouch in the hoot department either. I have a theory that it started as an unrelated lower budget game that they just grafted the tangled XIII mess on top of. I actually really like it on the gameplay side, there's a lot of unconventional shit going on with the mechanics and story structure and I think it would've attained a bit of a cult status by now if it wasn't for its ties to the desecrated dark horse of the franchise. As it is, it's just fucking bizzare. Truly one of the most baffling trilogies in gaming.

Lightning Returns is pretty much at least partially built off of the skeleton of a Valkyrie Profile game that didn't get made, along with some cut Versus XIII art assets.
 

Gaia Lanzer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,672
My opinion is Final Fantasy shouldn't be looking backwards. It should be always moving forward.

Zones imo makes a game world feel disconnected. Final Fantasy has always been trying to move towards making gameplay and the game world seamless. Open world imho feels like a natural evolution of the overworld maps of old. Otherwise we get disconnected zones or tight corridors.

Personally I remember more of XV's world and its layout than XII's for example.

Just because you have an open world does not mean the game world becomes less memorable or the story has to suffer for it. There are many people who's favorite story's are told within a open world setting. Hell there is a large amount of people who find FFXV as one of their favorite stories within the series and that is told within the open world.

Nothing is mutually exclusive. Open world does not equal bad storytelling. Zones may be your preference but a bad tale can be told in a Zone based game or a linear game.
I'm of the opinion that what works works, regardless of it being an old idea or a new one. It's less about something being old or new, but HOW they use it/utilize it. I'm open to anything as long as it's done right and it's beneficial to the game. Whatever allows us to have the best presentation of the world, story, or is beneficial to exploration and gameplay, so be it. That's why I'm still open to turn-based experiences. I'm not asking for a slow turn-based battle system, but if they can find a new way to spin it and it works, I'm game.

I'm thinking areas will be cut into zones, but the progression from zone to zone will be seamless. They won't even have to hide the transition/loading like Noctis squeezing his way through the cave with the goblins in it. I think zones were always somewhat of a thing in Square's mind since FFVII. You always had "areas" or regions you were in while exploring the world map. "Gold Saucer Area", for example. FFVIII and onward used specific names for regions. FFVIII had Alcauld Plains, Monterosa Plateau, Dino Desert, Thor Penninsula, and such. FFIX had Lucid Plains, Hadris Basin, Vube Desert, Popos Heights, Magdalene Forest, and so on. Now, traveling through those regions on the world map is a nothing burger, but I've always imagined them to be those worlds' unique regions not unlike FFX's Calm Lands, Mi'ihen Highroad, Thunder Plains, FFXII's Giza Palins, Tchita Uplands, Phon Coast, or FFXI and FFIVX's various regional zones. THAT would be what you call a "natural progression" of an older concept made into a full realization through gameplay and exploration.

And I'm aware bad stories and exploration can come from zone-based and ultra-linear games, but writing it off just because your preference doesn't mean you can't also do good things with something zone-based. I'm at least open to open-world if they do it right. Sure, people liked FFXV's world, but I didn't and I have yet to be convinced that Square can "do it right". Who knows, maybe Forspoken will be MY answer to THAT question regarding that kinda exploration. I am open to giving it a chance. It's generally depends on what you like. It's why I can hate my experience with FFXIII, while others can love theirs.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,449
I'm of the opinion that what works works, regardless of it being an old idea or a new one. It's less about something being old or new, but HOW they use it/utilize it. I'm open to anything as long as it's done right and it's beneficial to the game. Whatever allows us to have the best presentation of the world, story, or is beneficial to exploration and gameplay, so be it. That's why I'm still open to turn-based experiences. I'm not asking for a slow turn-based battle system, but if they can find a new way to spin it and it works, I'm game.

I'm thinking areas will be cut into zones, but the progression from zone to zone will be seamless. They won't even have to hide the transition/loading like Noctis squeezing his way through the cave with the goblins in it. I think zones were always somewhat of a thing in Square's mind since FFVII. You always had "areas" or regions you were in while exploring the world map. "Gold Saucer Area", for example. FFVIII and onward used specific names for regions. FFVIII had Alcauld Plains, Monterosa Plateau, Dino Desert, Thor Penninsula, and such. FFIX had Lucid Plains, Hadris Basin, Vube Desert, Popos Heights, Magdalene Forest, and so on. Now, traveling through those regions on the world map is a nothing burger, but I've always imagined them to be those worlds' unique regions not unlike FFX's Calm Lands, Mi'ihen Highroad, Thunder Plains, FFXII's Giza Palins, Tchita Uplands, Phon Coast, or FFXI and FFIVX's various regional zones. THAT would be what you call a "natural progression" of an older concept made into a full realization through gameplay and exploration.

And I'm aware bad stories and exploration can come from zone-based and ultra-linear games, but writing it off just because your preference doesn't mean you can't also do good things with something zone-based. I'm at least open to open-world if they do it right. Sure, people liked FFXV's world, but I didn't and I have yet to be convinced that Square can "do it right". Who knows, maybe Forspoken will be MY answer to THAT question regarding that kinda exploration. I am open to giving it a chance. It's generally depends on what you like. It's why I can hate my experience with FFXIII, while others can love theirs.

I think if XVI has zones, they'll be separated, but this is a very well-put post and I agree completely with everything else.
 

PshycoNinja

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
3,224
Los Angeles
I'm thinking areas will be cut into zones, but the progression from zone to zone will be seamless. They won't even have to hide the transition/loading like Noctis squeezing his way through the cave with the goblins in it. I think zones were always somewhat of a thing in Square's mind since FFVII. You always had "areas" or regions you were in while exploring the world map. "Gold Saucer Area", for example. FFVIII and onward used specific names for regions. FFVIII had Alcauld Plains, Monterosa Plateau, Dino Desert, Thor Penninsula, and such. FFIX had Lucid Plains, Hadris Basin, Vube Desert, Popos Heights, Magdalene Forest, and so on. Now, traveling through those regions on the world map is a nothing burger, but I've always imagined them to be those worlds' unique regions not unlike FFX's Calm Lands, Mi'ihen Highroad, Thunder Plains, FFXII's Giza Palins, Tchita Uplands, Phon Coast, or FFXI and FFIVX's various regional zones. THAT would be what you call a "natural progression" of an older concept made into a full realization through gameplay and exploration.

I think this is a narrow way to look at it to say SE always looked at Zones as the evolution by saying areas had names. Areas in XV had names as well so I think going off and saying since earlier games had names to their regions and areas that means that zones were the natural evolution is a strange thought process to me.

Also to my recollection Noctis didn't squeeze through areas to get into the next "zone" or area in the game. Half the dungeons didn't even have you squeeze through anything to explore them.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,449
The thing is you can't say they need to look to the future and not the past because it's not a binary choice. The past informs the future and they absolutely do need to be looking at older games and why they were successful when making a new one. This is a very basic idea that the XVI leadership all seem to understand so it's not really an issue, but yeah.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,742
The thing is you can't say they need to look to the future and not the past because it's not a binary choice. The past informs the future and they absolutely do need to be looking at older games and why they were successful when making a new one. This is a very basic idea that the XVI leadership all seem to understand so it's not really an issue, but yeah.

Accurate.
 

PshycoNinja

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
3,224
Los Angeles
It may have been poorly worded on my end but you know what you are insinuating I said is not how it was meant to be conveyed.

I was saying the franchise and games need to move forward in progressing the series and bringing new ideas in. If the dev team is just like "lets just make a carbon copy of XII but with action combat" that isn't really moving the needle in the series. Instead of the game being its own thing its trying to be another game.

Like XV has clear homages to the early games, namely 1-6, but its not a carbon copy of those games because that would betray the very idea of FF. Look back to inform what to avoid or inform that "feeling" of FF. But not look back so much as to just merely become the same game just prettier. Move forward, make something new and unique. That is the idea.
 

Orion

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,786
Not to drag Tales back into the conversation, but as much as I loved Arise and think it's world was super pretty, I recently started replaying Vesperia and it reminded me once again how much I really do freakin' miss overworlds in jrpgs. At this point I've accepted that it's over though, especially in mainline FF.

I hate feeling like I don't know where I am in a game's world. XII having invisible countries and uncharted lands really annoyed me, but XIII was probably the worst offender in this regard. Pulse is supposed to be a planet but it felt like I only got a tiny glimpse of it. Cocoon was a baby planet and even it felt very geographically confusing to me and seemed to have so much more to offer than what we got. X's world was small, but it at least felt like you saw most of what that world had to offer. X also gave me a nice little map that clearly showed all the major locations, so I guess I just need some sort of visual of the world to look at and I'm mostly satisfied.

In conclusion, I can live with zones. I feel like that's probably the easiest way for them to deliver a large variety of unique locations. But give me a cute map so I can see where everything is at least lol.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,449
X really was the height of those fixed camera angles, too. Those convey the scale of the world or even just your immediate location so well, they change your perception. XIII is more linear than X just from the objective layouts of the maps, but it would've helped a little bit if the camera wasn't always strapped to Lightnings back.


Someone just replayed XIII-2

LOL I did get it off Steam recently actually. I'd like to play some of it again.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,742
Not to drag Tales back into the conversation, but as much as I loved Arise and think it's world was super pretty, I recently started replaying Vesperia and it reminded me once again how much I really do freakin' miss overworlds in jrpgs. At this point I've accepted that it's over though, especially in mainline FF.

I hate feeling like I don't know where I am in a game's world. XII having invisible countries and uncharted lands really annoyed me, but XIII was probably the worst offender in this regard. Pulse is supposed to be a planet but it felt like I only got a tiny glimpse of it. Cocoon was a baby planet and even it felt very geographically confusing to me and seemed to have so much more to offer than what we got. X's world was small, but it at least felt like you saw most of what that world had to offer. X also gave me a nice little map that clearly showed all the major locations, so I guess I just need some sort of visual of the world to look at and I'm mostly satisfied.

In conclusion, I can live with zones. I feel like that's probably the easiest way for them to deliver a large variety of unique locations. But give me a cute map so I can see where everything is at least lol.

X's world pissed me off so much. the "you finally have an airship!" moment is one of those classic JRPG dopamine hits, and when you get Cid's airship in FFX, after hours and hours of shitty running around on highways, it's just a fart. It doesn't matter even a little bit outside of unlocking the damn Omega Ruins.

Like I get what you're saying about most zone games giving you virtually no sense of the world's size, scale, or the placement of locations, but the selectable world map in X was the death of world exploration. FF has never recovered since that exact moment.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,753
Personally, the only mainline, single player game in the franchise I didn't like was XII. I'm not counting sequels or spin offs.

The rest I loved to various degrees.
 
Oct 31, 2017
14,991
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jill-zarin.gif

❤️
 
Oct 25, 2017
56,663
img_0206.jpg
Even if it's not open world or even wide linear I hope we can still have fun transportation options cuz that was really fun in xv(especially after the car got patched) . Don't even need to be truly open either because the airship and boat were pretty linear in controls

rsz_final_fantasy_xv_1.jpg

FFXV_Jun232016_22.jpg


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CRIMSON-XIII

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,173
Chicago, IL
I think they gotta get towns and the world better overall. I loved XVs cast and their conversations and their immediate story, but the world and cities didn't have much compared to the certain scope of the game. I realize altissia is impressive, and i personally do think lestallum was chill. But I know XVI will do cities better. VIIR too.
 

Orion

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,786
X's world pissed me off so much. the "you finally have an airship!" moment is one of those classic JRPG dopamine hits, and when you get Cid's airship in FFX, after hours and hours of shitty running around on highways, it's just a fart. It doesn't matter even a little bit outside of unlocking the damn Omega Ruins.

Like I get what you're saying about most zone games giving you virtually no sense of the world's size, scale, or the placement of locations, but the selectable world map in X was the death of world exploration. FF has never recovered since that exact moment.
Believe me I miss traveling a game's world in an airship too. I appreciated how XV did its best to recreate that experience. It seems impossible to do something like that on a realistic scale for an entire planet, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,742
Believe me I miss traveling a game's world in an airship too. I appreciated how XV did its best to recreate that experience. It seems impossible to do something like that on a realistic scale for an entire planet, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

This is precisely why the obsession with realistic scale is the death of the genre. I feel like we've gone from stories where we have a massive ocean we only scratch the surface of, to very deep rain puddles.

It's not just FF's fault, to be fair - the entire genre is contracting inward while the focus shifts to being about visceral action combat and super high-quality world visuals, and we completely lose the sense of world-spanning adventure.

I can't think of the last RPG I played that actually satisfied me there. God, it might have been Wild ARMs: Alter Code F. Lost Odyssey tried, but...Cooke and Mack.
 

Zero-ELEC

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,565
México
I'm thinking areas will be cut into zones, but the progression from zone to zone will be seamless. They won't even have to hide the transition/loading like Noctis squeezing his way through the cave with the goblins in it. I think zones were always somewhat of a thing in Square's mind since FFVII. You always had "areas" or regions you were in while exploring the world map. "Gold Saucer Area", for example. FFVIII and onward used specific names for regions. FFVIII had Alcauld Plains, Monterosa Plateau, Dino Desert, Thor Penninsula, and such. FFIX had Lucid Plains, Hadris Basin, Vube Desert, Popos Heights, Magdalene Forest, and so on. Now, traveling through those regions on the world map is a nothing burger, but I've always imagined them to be those worlds' unique regions not unlike FFX's Calm Lands, Mi'ihen Highroad, Thunder Plains, FFXII's Giza Palins, Tchita Uplands, Phon Coast, or FFXI and FFIVX's various regional zones. THAT would be what you call a "natural progression" of an older concept made into a full realization through gameplay and exploration.
Even back in Final Fantasy IV areas were classified. They were just done in extra materials, related to what Kingdom was in control of that area.
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ywZcF5k.png
 

Orion

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,786
This is precisely why the obsession with realistic scale is the death of the genre. I feel like we've gone from stories where we have a massive ocean we only scratch the surface of, to very deep rain puddles.

It's not just FF's fault, to be fair - the entire genre is contracting inward while the focus shifts to being about visceral action combat and super high-quality world visuals, and we completely lose the sense of world-spanning adventure.

I can't think of the last RPG I played that actually satisfied me there. God, it might have been Wild ARMs: Alter Code F. Lost Odyssey tried, but...Cooke and Mack.
Agreed. Well, except for the part about the genre being dead or dying, but I do wish there wasn't such an obsession with chasing realism. That's why I really don't mind if XVI isn't the most visually stunning game ever made if it means it can have a more cohesive world.
 

Spehornoob

Member
Nov 15, 2017
8,945
Not to drag Tales back into the conversation, but as much as I loved Arise and think it's world was super pretty, I recently started replaying Vesperia and it reminded me once again how much I really do freakin' miss overworlds in jrpgs. At this point I've accepted that it's over though, especially in mainline FF.

I hate feeling like I don't know where I am in a game's world. XII having invisible countries and uncharted lands really annoyed me, but XIII was probably the worst offender in this regard. Pulse is supposed to be a planet but it felt like I only got a tiny glimpse of it. Cocoon was a baby planet and even it felt very geographically confusing to me and seemed to have so much more to offer than what we got. X's world was small, but it at least felt like you saw most of what that world had to offer. X also gave me a nice little map that clearly showed all the major locations, so I guess I just need some sort of visual of the world to look at and I'm mostly satisfied.

In conclusion, I can live with zones. I feel like that's probably the easiest way for them to deliver a large variety of unique locations. But give me a cute map so I can see where everything is at least lol.
I miss overworlds like hell. They're a great way to give the illusion of a globe-spanning adventure without devoting an impossible amount of resources to do so on a 1:1 scale.

But that 1:1 scale is generally what people look for nowadays and I'm the Boomer inhaling my copium and pining for ye olde days.
 

Deleted member 511

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,676
Reading this thread is exhausting. Ya'll argue very disingenuously at times and its not just 'one side' either.

Just because you have an open world does not mean the game world becomes less memorable or the story has to suffer for it. There are many people who's favorite story's are told within a open world setting.
Who is really saying this outside of people who speak in hyperbole / just hate open world games? The Witcher 3, a game that is considered one of the best games of last gen, is an open world game with a fantastic story. I think most reasonable people who dislike XV simply think the story and world were just not good and don't look at all open world games as bad. Like...most of XV's open 'world' takes place on region and then the games is extremely on rails once you get to other parts of the world. One of the most heavily promoted locations in marketing, Tenebrae, wasn't even explorable. Like...come on.

That is the issue most people have.

In old FF games you went to multiple regions with diverse locations with unique quests to give its world flavor. No modern single player FF game has had an equivalent to Triple Triad, Blitzball, etc. which sucks and if FFXVi has hunts, I'm going to scream because it'll be the fourth single player game in a row to do that (hunts were actually really unique in XII with special hunts and there being actual story for some of them but I feel like the others blindly - as well as dully - copying it has made it less interesting in retrospect). Deep down, most people don't care if the game is open world or whatever. I honestly feel like more people just point at overworlds because FF had better worlds back then and the series hasn't been able to create a better alternative yet. Hopefully XVI is the game to break that. Either way, I just want a game with a unique world that's actually interesting to explore and has a good story. As a FF fan, its a sad feeling when I'm playing Genshin Impact and think that Inazuma is more interesting than any FF location in the last 10-15 years from a visual and exploration standpoint.

-

Anyway, I agree that while XII had interesting and very diverse locations...the world is extremely dead. But it's not like overworlds are 'alive' anyway so again, I don't even know what's been argued. Some of ya'll should say you don't like something and leave it at that lmao.
 

PshycoNinja

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
3,224
Los Angeles
I have literally never managed to do a perfect landing. I always end up at least somewhat off the road and crashed into a tree or side rail or something. I have no clue why it's so hard.

Make sure you are lined up and braking. Slow down as much as possible before landing. Make sure nose of car is not at a downward angle. And then pray.
 
Oct 25, 2017
56,663
Also I'm down for more color chocobo make it happen.
Czc-WFsVEAASQ6E.jpg


I will say it'll feel good to have regular magic again even if I personally liked the magic bomb.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,449
I think they gotta get towns and the world better overall. I loved XVs cast and their conversations and their immediate story, but the world and cities didn't have much compared to the certain scope of the game. I realize altissia is impressive, and i personally do think lestallum was chill. But I know XVI will do cities better. VIIR too.



This is what they're doing on PS4.

We're going to eat on PS5.
 

Ryotsu

Member
Jun 11, 2021
281
Really curious to see how the combat/battle system will be (with Ryota Suzuki in charge).

They have to show something. And they still have to reveal FFVII Remake Part 2.
 

anaa

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Jun 30, 2019
1,555
Every time this thread gets bumped …I should know better by now lol

I don't even know why I'm even invested at this point, hated xv and only merely tolerated 7R. And yet, every new iteration I find myself hoping it'll be the one that really hits right for me.
 

Helix

Mayor of Clown Town
Member
Jun 8, 2019
23,793
Really curious to see how the combat/battle system will be (with Ryota Suzuki in charge).

They have to show something. And they still have to reveal FFVII Remake Part 2.

I don't think you are gonna see anything Part 2 related until we have a substantial idea of what XVI is like, maybe even after it's launch
 
Oct 31, 2017
14,991
Would you guys say that this is me when I get sad/angry when people say negative things about FFXIII, but relentlessly attack anyone that has anything remotely positive to say about FFXV?

3eff3426c383fbb745aada8bc9e2c531_w200.gif
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,532
Every time this thread gets bumped …I should know better by now lol

I don't even know why I'm even invested at this point, hated xv and only merely tolerated 7R. And yet, every new iteration I find myself hoping it'll be the one that really hits right for me.

I have high hopes for the story of XVI, given the people in charge, and the setting and tone we've already glimpsed. Reminds me a lot of Matsuno's work (I haven't played XIV yet), which is exciting -- the first time I've eagerly and unreservedly anticipated a Final Fantasy's story since... uh... XII / XI's expansions, I suppose.

But damn if I'm not pessimistic about the gameplay. DMC-like character action with a distinct possibility of no playable party is just a real monkey's paw to me. At least VII-R had an iteration of ATB with a real party. XVI's floaty air juggling combat just looks totally at odds with its seemingly grounded medieval setting to me.
 
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