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Oct 25, 2017
5,511
Was it meant to be organically inserted into the lore, or was it designed as part of a larger "What If" initiative that they did not manage to complete? My understanding is that while the first set of DLC Episodes were designed to fill gaps for the other party characters in the main story, the subsequent set of DLCs were designed to be far more liberal in how it used lore and narrative, with it concluding in a totally different happy ending route with Luna. If this is the case, could it not be seen that this was maybe the first part of a different canon for the game but they just didn't get to making the rest?

The framing in the book is that the original ending was one of myriad possible timelines that Noctis observed while in the Crystal, and that the DLCs are the true timeline.

Either way, Episodes Ardyn and Aranea would be all or mostly canon anyway, with the beginning of Episode Luna being the first major deviation.
 

Tornak

Member
Feb 7, 2018
8,407
The framing in the book is that the original ending was one of myriad possible timelines that Noctis observed while in the Crystal, and that the DLCs are the true timeline.
Lmao, really? So bizarre if true, considering how well received it was. Why go the toothless, safe route when your original ending was good at conveying a specific theme needled into the narrative and actually able to instill so many emotions into your players (which is amazing considering the narrative shortcomings before)?

Regardless, it's a DLC plan that never came to fruition, so it doesn't taint the original ending. On that note, I kinda suspect FF XVI won't have a very totally ending either :p I hope they take advantage of that potential +18 rating to be more blunt about the fucked up shit that the series has always had.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,743
Lmao, really? So bizarre if true, considering how well received it was. Why go the toothless, safe route when your original ending was good at conveying a specific theme needled into the narrative and actually able to instill so many emotions into your players (which is amazing considering the narrative shortcomings before)?

Because Square Enix seems to be developing a terminal allergy to sad endings and bad things happening to heroes, as we've seen in KH3 and FFVIIR. Why let bad things happen when you can just fix the timeline with time travel to the way you want it to be?
 

Agni Kai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,080
Regardless, it's a DLC plan that never came to fruition, so it doesn't taint the original ending.

The thing is Ardyn's DLC does make it to change the main plot though, so the ending was affected as well. The moment you touch that DLC, FFXV turns into a completely different story. I really don't know what they were thinking with their DLC plans, but I truly am sad we never got to play Aranea's DLC.
 

Chumunga64

Member
Jun 22, 2018
14,406
episode ardyn sucked and it turned ardyn from "tragic villain" to "literally did nothing wrong" and I'm happy we didn't get that true ending DLC crap

the only "happy" ending I can accept is the bittersweet episode ignis one where Noctis lives but there's no magic and he has to help rebuild the world
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,704
I think the thing that sucks the most about XV's story is that the gods kinda just got away with everything (I dunno if Comrades does anything since I never played it)
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,704
still don't understand why Lady Garland followed Jack after her calling her testimonial bullshit LMAO

I mean, what else do you do when someone looks you dead in the eyes and calls your Kingdom Hearts tier monologue bullshit and just walks away while blasting butt rock on his wireless headphones?

Where do you even go from that.
 

FrostweaveBandage

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Sep 27, 2019
6,886
The thing is Ardyn's DLC does make it to change the main plot though, so the ending was affected as well. The moment you touch that DLC, FFXV turns into a completely different story. I really don't know what they were thinking with their DLC plans, but I truly am sad we never got to play Aranea's DLC.

Their DLC plans were: we made all these storyboards and regions and assets and we want to use them. I don't think it was anything more than that. Disparate pieces of a game that ought to have been part of the main story, but were not, with some things modified because fuck it we already didn't get to do it the way we wanted to in the first place so here you go.

The thing I always wanted with XV and its DLC was for it to be integrated chronologically at different points in the story, like FFVI was. FFVI has this great section where your party splits up and you are able to go with each group to do their part and see what they're doing. They eventually reunite at a climactic point. It's beautiful. This is 100% what XV should have done, to increase the impact of those individual points and add the right amount of drama. Instead, each party member arrives back with the team and hardly speaks of what they did in their absence.

Again, I'm not criticizing. I just know what it could have been, and I think given the time they could have pulled it off.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,511
Lmao, really? So bizarre if true, considering how well received it was. Why go the toothless, safe route when your original ending was good at conveying a specific theme needled into the narrative and actually able to instill so many emotions into your players (which is amazing considering the narrative shortcomings before)?

Regardless, it's a DLC plan that never came to fruition, so it doesn't taint the original ending. On that note, I kinda suspect FF XVI won't have a very totally ending either :p I hope they take advantage of that potential +18 rating to be more blunt about the fucked up shit that the series has always had.

It's honestly a pretty epic ending.
It's also still a pretty melancholic ending.
While Noctis and Luna live, the world is much more heavily damaged, but free from the gods and Crystal.
Reminds me of VI's ending.
 

PshycoNinja

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
3,236
Los Angeles
I think the thing that sucks the most about XV's story is that the gods kinda just got away with everything (I dunno if Comrades does anything since I never played it)

Its more a matter of perspectives from each characters POV. Gods are sworn to protect humanity so they believe their solution is the path of least resistance and least bloodshed, provided everyone is onboard, to rid the world of the Starscorge. Noctis wants to make good on the promises he's made to his loved ones and protect and save those who still live. Ardyn's perspective is everyone sort of fucked him out of everything and feels scorned and unappreciated. And I like that complexity. World is hardly black and white and to have characters where they all think they are doing the right thing, yet they are all at odds with each other is a great concept and makes for compelling narrative.
 

Agni Kai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,080
Their DLC plans were: we made all these storyboards and regions and assets and we want to use them. I don't think it was anything more than that. Disparate pieces of a game that ought to have been part of the main story, but were not, with some things modified because fuck it we already didn't get to do it the way we wanted to in the first place so here you go.

The thing I always wanted with XV and its DLC was for it to be integrated chronologically at different points in the story, like FFVI was. FFVI has this great section where your party splits up and you are able to go with each group to do their part and see what they're doing. They eventually reunite at a climactic point. It's beautiful. This is 100% what XV should have done, to increase the impact of those individual points and add the right amount of drama. Instead, each party member arrives back with the team and hardly speaks of what they did in their absence.

Again, I'm not criticizing. I just know what it could have been, and I think given the time they could have pulled it off.

Oh yeah! I completely agree. I actually like what they were doing with Episodes Gladio, Prompto and Ignis. I just partially disagree with what they were trying to do with the second bath of DLCs, as they drastically changed FFXV's story.

I should seriously play FF VI one of these days. I'm missing VI and VIII!
 

Raigor

Member
May 14, 2020
15,190
they better have a rank system after every fight or the game is DOA

You can't go DMC without the style
 
Oct 31, 2017
14,991
I think the big thing is that for an open world game in particular, having you spend 6-10 hours not in the open world would kind of feel jarring and not congruent with the game's core design. This is also partially why the last third of XV is so reviled, because you spend 40 hours in the open world and then spend the last 10 on a super-linear train going from set piece to set piece. So much of the game's initial design just gets jettisoned for the last 10 hours and it feels VERY out of place.
Then either the game shouldn't have had a story or it shouldn't have been open world.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,743
Then either the game shouldn't have had a story or it shouldn't have been open world.

"The game should've been a completely different kind of game than the one they wanted to make" is not a particularly fair argument.

Unless suddenly it's okay for me to say the entire design principle and narrative in FFVIIR is garbage and should never have happened?
 

Synohan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,005
Then either the game shouldn't have had a story or it shouldn't have been open world.
That's pretty extreme. I enjoyed FFXV a lot more prior to the train section. Riding around with the Bro's in the open world was very enjoyable and would have been even more if the story during the open world section was better told and formatted. Although I believe a story like V would better suit that sort of road trip vibe. I'd like to believe that you can still have that open world road trip experience while telling an engaging story. XV tried and fumbled a bit, but I'd be all for them revisiting this idea with better planning and less rushing.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,449
I'd like to believe that you can still have that open world road trip experience while telling an engaging story.

I think the the reality is unless you have unlimited development bandwidth you kinda have to pick one or the other. I'm not too good for open-world games or anything either, but I can count the ones with stories I really enjoyed to the point of them staying with me on one hand.

Especially with something like FFXV, where the point of the story is watching these characters spend a long period of time together from location to location, the open-world takes away from that, it's distracting. Now someone will say that they bonded with the bros just fine going around to their gas stations and hunting their monsters and w/e and that's fine, but that's not what I'm talking about here; I'm talking about the actual labor of making the game they did and how that effects the execution of it.

If you make an open-world you have to make some semblance of all the stuff that goes in it—the fetch quests, the collectibles, etc—and on at least some level that takes time and effort away from being able to really handcraft specific things that would make the journey more memorable.

For me, getting on the train in XV was just an affirmation that, yeah, this game just shouldn't have been open-world to begin with. It should've been fairly linear with much more dialogue between the cast, way more one off moments, way more actual "road trip" stuff than camping and getting gas. FFX should've been a bigger influence on the game, to be quite honest.
 

FrostweaveBandage

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Sep 27, 2019
6,886
Then either the game shouldn't have had a story or it shouldn't have been open world.

I don't think the intention was to ever go that hard on the rails that they did. But it was pretty clear that they were only able to do enough with the first few zones that Tenebrae, Altissia, and Gralea zones were going to have to be severely cut down in order to release in some kind of complete state.
 

Synohan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,005
I think the the reality is unless you have unlimited development bandwidth you kinda have to pick one or the other. I'm not too good for open-world games or anything either, but I can count the ones with stories I really enjoyed to the point of them staying with me on one hand.

Especially with something like FFXV, where the point of the story is watching these characters spend a long period of time together from location to location, the open-world takes away from that, it's distracting. Now someone will say that they bonded with the bros just fine going around to their gas stations and hunting their monsters and w/e and that's fine, but that's not what I'm talking about here; I'm talking about the actual labor of making the game they did and how that effects the execution of it.

If you make an open-world you have to make some semblance of all the stuff that goes in it—the fetch quests, the collectibles, etc—and on at least some level that takes time and effort away from being able to really handcraft specific things that would make the journey more memorable.

For me, getting on the train in XV was just an affirmation that, yeah, this game just shouldn't have been open-world to begin with. It should've been fairly linear with much more dialogue between the cast, way more one off moments, way more actual "road trip" stuff than camping and getting gas. FFX should've been a bigger influence on the game, to be quite honest.
I agree. It would be a big undertaking, that I'd love to see realized in perfect form, but more than likely it's a difficult and expensive undertaking. I think of open world games I really enjoyed, like Xenoblade X and how well crafted and memorable the world was. Then, the downsides with it's lack of an engaging main scenario that doesn't do a great job of meshing with the the open world and a handful of character stories that feel disconnected. It really is one or the other and finding one capable of doing both is a rarity.

You do bring up an interesting thought point with FFX being a better influence of what XV could have been. It has me curious on the structure concept Nomura had in mind prior to the XV reveal and the open world.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,743
I agree. It would be a big undertaking, that I'd love to see realized in perfect form, but more than likely it's a difficult and expensive undertaking. I think of open world games I really enjoyed, like Xenoblade X and how well crafted and memorable the world was. Then, the downsides with it's lack of an engaging main scenario that doesn't do a great job of meshing with the the open world and a handful of character stories that feel disconnected. It really is one or the other and finding one capable of doing both is a rarity.

You do bring up an interesting thought point with FFX being a better influence of what XV could have been. It has me curious on the structure concept Nomura had in mind prior to the XV reveal and the open world.

Nomura was shooting for a trilogy of games focusing on different locales. When Versus got cancelled, plans for the trilogy were abandoned and Nomura and Tabata reworked a lot of the master script into what became XV, with Tabata making further changes after that.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
"Final Fantasy Versus XIII-2" and "Final Fantasy Versus XIII-3" would have been pretty crazy titles, but then again that's Nomura
 

HMD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,301
Because Square Enix seems to be developing a terminal allergy to sad endings and bad things happening to heroes, as we've seen in KH3 and FFVIIR. Why let bad things happen when you can just fix the timeline with time travel to the way you want it to be?

This has been the case for a long time. FFX is right there with the biggest cop out of them all in its own post-credits scene.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,449
Yeah its hard to speculate too much on what Versus would've done, but I'm skeptical it would've been an industry standard open-world like XV. Nomura's games are so much more plot-focused than XV is, I imagine you were mostly locked to the road and a minimal amount of the area to either side of that road for most of the game. No going way off the beaten path and into a cave or whatever. Which only makes sense, I mean the point of a road trip is you spend half your time on the road.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,743
Yeah its hard to speculate too much on what Versus would've done, but I'm skeptical it would've been an industry standard open-world like XV. Nomura's games are so much more plot-focused than XV is, I imagine you were mostly locked to the road and a minimal amount of the area to either side of that road for most of the game. No going way off the beaten path and into a cave or whatever. Which only makes sense, I mean the point of a road trip is you spend half your time on the road.

At one point Versus had an old-school PS1-style overworld map. Nomura REALLY WANTED an airship you could fly around the entire game world, it was one of the reasons the game kept getting delayed.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,580
At one point Versus had an old-school PS1-style overworld map. Nomura REALLY WANTED an airship you could fly around the entire game world, it was one of the reasons the game kept getting delayed.

Would've been nice.

Overworld maps are a nearly lost art in JRPGs. I'd take them and their abstraction, with their potential planet-spanning scale, any day over a seamless open world spanning the backwater of a single region.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,743
Would've been nice.

Overworld maps are a nearly lost arts in JRPGs. I'd take them and their abstraction, with their potential planet-spanning scale, any day over a seamless open world spanning the backwater of a single region.

Agreed. I'd also take one over a bunch of random highways or square "field" maps that really just line up into a straight line ferrying the player from plot point to plot point.
 

Tornak

Member
Feb 7, 2018
8,407
At one point Versus had an old-school PS1-style overworld map. Nomura REALLY WANTED an airship you could fly around the entire game world, it was one of the reasons the game kept getting delayed.
Ahh, the good old days (would have loved it, there's something special about them):

dQAIS.jpeg

Not only I'm doing this.
I'm willing to bet again.

Until I get it right lol
Fuck it, I'd be in too, down to even betting on a tag for the losers. Geoff's out of gamer jail and has been getting bolder by the day, FF XVI will be a piece of cake for him.

Truth be told, wouldn't it be lovely if some random day we woke up to "Final Fantasy XVI to be shown at TGA/PSX/whatever"?
 

Dragmire

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,123
I honestly would rather have FF12's or FFXIV zones than an open world, but would you folks want a traversable ps1 map to connect them?
 

Tornak

Member
Feb 7, 2018
8,407
I honestly would rather have FF12's or FFXIV zones than an open world, but would you folks want a traversable ps1 map to connect them?
Big zones with density and detailed level design (with the occasional dead space to convey a journey), yes. Don't want an unmemorable open world with scattered narrative opportunities, but if they can do right by that, sure, why not.

PSX-like maps, too, although it might be too jarring now that FF has gone hard down the route of realism.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,743
I honestly would rather have FF12's or FFXIV zones than an open world, but would you folks want a traversable ps1 map to connect them?

Zones suck. I hate walking around big empty boxes full of roaming enemies. Just give me an old-school overworld and only make the areas that matter fully explorable.

I don't need sixteen different "open field" areas with nothing interesting in them.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,449
I mean, people are entitled to their dreams, but they aren't doing PSX maps. You're getting a map screen for fast travel and that might even be just a list with names and pictures.

They should do zones though, for sure.
 

Munba

Member
Oct 27, 2017
336
Yeah, ff12 zones alike is the best choise for me to explore during the story, all linked in an overworld map with the possibility to pilot airship above it.
 

Helix

Mayor of Clown Town
Member
Jun 8, 2019
24,036
you can have a good FF game with a linear structure and branching sub paths. I don't think any new FF game has to be open world just because XV was.
 

Dragmire

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,123
Big zones with density and detailed level design (with the occasional dead space to convey a journey), yes. Don't want an unmemorable open world with scattered narrative opportunities, but if they can do right by that, sure, why not.

PSX-like maps, too, although it might be too jarring now that FF has gone hard down the route of realism.
Exactly.

Well the last time realistic proportioned characters in a FF had a world map was type-0.
 

TaleSpun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,449
you can have a good FF game with a linear structure and branching sub paths. I don't think any new FF game has to be open world just because XV was.

Oh, absolutely. They shouldn't do an open-world imo. Do explorable zones that are actually distinct and memorable, and tied together with a compelling cast and story.

Honestly, they should be trying to make a game as good as Shadowbringers, not one that makes up for XVs biggest failures.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,743
Oh, absolutely. They shouldn't do an open-world imo. Do explorable zones that are actually distinct and memorable, and tied together with a compelling cast and story.

Honestly, they should be trying to make a game as good as Shadowbringers, not one that makes up for XVs biggest failures.

The irony being that I don't think zones are ever distinct or memorable in single-player RPGs. I can't think of a single time where a field zone was actually fun or interesting to explore in any game.

They basically only work in MMOs. In single-player games they're just filler. Gameplay static.
 
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